http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4828378

Bush's support for Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon will go down well with conservative and Jewish voters in the U.S. presidential election but was likely to inflame the Arab world and further complicate efforts to stabilize Iraq.

The announcement marked a shift from the decades-old U.S. policy of viewing the Jewish settlements as an obstacle to peace and was greeted with anger by Palestinian officials.





IMO, this will bring more chaos.

Mr president said
"In light of new realities on the ground, including already existing major Israeli population centers,

does this encourage all countries to break law, and create ( new realities on the ground), then start negotioating from there, how wise.
I'm not against a 2 countries resolution, both living side by side in peace, but the way its going now, it will only bring more chaos to the whole world, it will raise hatred to USA.

Job well done MR. Bush

From SKY NEWS ONLINE

>>

President George Bush has been accused of inflaming the situation in the Middle East after he backed Israel's plan to start the withdrawal of settlements from Gaza and parts of the West Bank.

<<


Web Rhino, i am aware of how you feel about the situation but i have a question or two on this issue.

Of course we will need cross border agreement to settle this for the long term but what is your main problem withIsrael unilaterally trying to extract or disengage themselves from areas like the West Bank and Gaza? If someone can take the initiative or be pro active in some way the two parties might be forced back to the table as a response. Might be nice once in a while if that happened.

thanks

Critic,

How about Israel follows all the UN Resolutions that the US voted in favor of and then If Palestine continues terrorist acts even after Israel is following the resolutions then we go Iraqi on them. Instead of this decade long war we will make it a 3 week one.

Originally posted by alvinks
How about Israel follows all the UN Resolutions that the US voted in favor of and then If Palestine continues terrorist acts even after Israel is following the resolutions then we go Iraqi on them. Instead of this decade long war we will make it a 3 week one.

I like it - but go worse than iraqi - this is getting rediculous. give them their country back and then if they attack someone again - give it to them so this is not a matter any more.

Originally posted by Critic
Of course we will need cross border agreement to settle this for the long term but what is your main problem withIsrael unilaterally trying to extract or disengage themselves from areas like the West Bank and Gaza? If someone can take the initiative or be pro active in some way the two parties might be forced back to the table as a response.

Whilst extracting 7,000 settlers and military outposts fom Gaza would be progress, the West Bank is an entirely different matter, keeping 92,000 settlers in the West Bank with an "agreement" that amounts to formally annexing bits of the West Bank (as opposed to merely occupying it) does not seem like progress.

As for being proactive and it bringing people to the table, it seems very obvious that the Palestinians have been delibrately kept away from the table and the only response this particularly initiative is likely to illicit is one of violence.

I am not saying bringing anything back to the table. Just have Israel follow the UN resolutions that the United States voted for and if Palestinians still attack after this huge good faith gesture then the UN (along with the United States) comes in with full force to regulate Palestine.

The other option is what we have now which is nothing. Instead of another decade of violence I am saying we have a few months of it and it would include all the nations of the world.

The settlers have occupied areas using pretty tasteless measures and thought it will be painful to resettle them I believe it is worth the benefits which would be peace in the middle east.

peace in the middle east

That'll be the day. This war is nearly as old as I am!!

Originally posted by alvinks
Just have Israel follow the UN resolutions

And there's the flaw in your plan, Israel don't follow UN resolutions (even ones America voted for) and it's unlikely they will unless America elects a president who isn't either a religous nut, a gutless wonder or a combination of both.

Same thing with America getting involved with the Cyprus issue.

Turkey invades Cyprus in 1974 backed by United States back then secretly and now officially trying to resolve peace in Cyprus instead of the split border setup by giving the Cypriots the *** end of the bargain.

Even though the northern state of cyprus is an illegal occupation and no one recongnises it but turkey, USA wants the cypriots to allow unification with the turks. So turkey can get into the EU and America can have there puppets acting for them.

Regards
Phillip

Israel don't follow UN resolutions

Sharon takes these baby steps. Terrorists that don't want this blow something up. Sharon not only reverses the steps, but destroy some houses to make a point. 6 weeks later Sharon takes another few baby steps and terrorists attack again. This is an endless cycle.

Only serious international pressure on both sides of this problem will resolved this issue. This pressure will most likely create additional deaths in the short terms, but save thousands in the long term and possibly millions if you think about the international ramifications this is currently causing.

Originally posted by alvinks
How about Israel follows all the UN Resolutions that the US voted in favor of and then If Palestine continues terrorist acts even after Israel is following the resolutions then we go Iraqi on them. Instead of this decade long war we will make it a 3 week one.
i double that.

Critic, of course I’m not against the Israeli withdrawal, i never said that this is my problem, my problem is who gave bush the right to give Israel the right to keep an occupied land as a prize for withdrawing from another part of the land. :eek:

so now a country can occupy another country , then after 50 years of negotiations, in MR. Bush new concept (reality on land), the occupying country will get 50% of the occupied land and withdraw from the other 50%
50-50 isn't even the reality here look at the maps, you will find that Gaza strip is very small compared to the west bank (area wise).

Originally posted by Web Rhino
i double that.

Critic, of course I’m not against the Israeli withdrawal, i never said that this is my problem, my problem is who gave bush the right to give Israel the right to keep an occupied land as a prize for withdrawing from another part of the land. :eek:

so now a country can occupy another country , then after 50 years of negotiations, in MR. Bush new concept (reality on land), the occupying country will get 50% of the occupied land and withdraw from the other 50%
50-50 isn't even the reality here look at the maps, you will find that Gaza strip is very small compared to the west bank (area wise).

if we enforced that mantra strictly here is what Isrealis would claim
We are tearing down the al aqsa temple and rebulding the jewish temple since it was there first and was taken a desecrated by the muslims that built the temple on top of it.

that would only be fair - right?

I suspect you will say no - that is an exception - so I guess there are always expceptions and the old addage of "son - no one ever said life is fair" is sometimes true.

At some point there will have to be a mutual compromise since there have been so many wrongs on each of these people against each other.

otherwise - it will be a neverending - well you didd this - I must be avenged - well you did this so I must be avanged. and so forth an so on.

Maybe that is what we are destined for. maybe that is why most think that nukes will be used in this region in our life due to the deep seeded 1000's year old bad blood feuds over there.

I wonder how long that has been in the pipeline between Sharon and Bush ...

The Palestinian are been fooled by Bush with the so-called roadmap..

Sailor, i don't understand- what are you trying to say ?!!

The Jewish temple story is way off topic-who knows its real location anyway? , I’m talking about land here, about resources....green lands, water resources, strategic areas; this is only what Israel is after,
-why does the wall go into Palestinian land eating up green lands?
- why isn’t it on the borders? Maybe this is a new reality on land stuff?
-why should the Palestinian side be force to sacrifice?


It’s all about interests. Elections are coming up and bush is doing a little strip for Jewish voters.

His comments will only bring more chaos to the area; it will not bring peace in anyway.

Originally posted by alvinks
How about Israel follows all the UN Resolutions that the US voted in favor of and then If Palestine continues terrorist acts even after Israel is following the resolutions then we go Iraqi on them. Instead of this decade long war we will make it a 3 week one.

the war will not be 3 weeks no matter what. no matter what the turn out is there will always be turmoil between the palestnians and the israelis.

gauranteed..

Originally posted by vibesolutions
the war will not be 3 weeks no matter what. no matter what the turn out is there will always be turmoil between the palestnians and the israelis.

gauranteed..

Always is long time. How about 20, 30 years. Looking at the speed palestinian population grows and comparing it to israely population growth, eventualy israelis will be minority and things will settle.

Who said the folowing:

"To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us and make a broken tyrant into a latter-day hero ... assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an un-winnable urban guerilla war. It could only plunge that part of the world into even greater instability."

How about US government and their partriotic morons (no offense to real US patriots) getting their *** back to US and stop getting in other countries business.

One would almost think Sharon prepared Bush's "new realities" speech :D

I am sure Sharon will go back to Israel with a big smile on his face.

[qt]the war will not be 3 weeks no matter what. no matter what the turn out is there will always be turmoil between the palestnians and the israelis.[qt]

I do agree that certain level of turmoil would exists for at least 20-30 years, even after the 3 week international offensive, however it would be the start some possible peace. Muslims and Jews have lived in peace (in this area) many times throughout the last 3 thousand years and it can happen again. Jews and Muslims are not mortal enemies.

If Palestinians were given an unoccupied country with a governement that has real power I think the turmoil would be significantly less. To get to this point requires some international involvement.

Originally posted by CyberAlien
How about US government and their partriotic morons (no offense to real US patriots) getting their *** back to US and stop getting in other countries business.

I am sure the morons here will be happy to mind their business when the other countries morons you are referring to step up to the plate and control their idiots. like - dont let them come over here and hijack our planes and blow up our buildings and you wont see us over there as much.

wow- no we have labeled everyone in the world as morons and idiots - what is the world coming to. lol

Originally posted by timechange.com
Who said the folowing:

"To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us and make a broken tyrant into a latter-day hero ... assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an un-winnable urban guerilla war. It could only plunge that part of the world into even greater instability."

Quiz is over - the quote above was made by GW Bush's father in 1996. Seems Junior does not consult his Dad's wisdom much ;)

Originally posted by Web Rhino
Sailor, i don't understand- what are you trying to say ?!!

The Jewish temple story is way off topic-who knows its real location anyway? , I’m talking about land here, about resources....green lands, water resources, strategic areas; this is only what Israel is after,
-why does the wall go into Palestinian land eating up green lands?
- why isn’t it on the borders? Maybe this is a new reality on land stuff?
-why should the Palestinian side be force to sacrifice?


It’s all about interests. Elections are coming up and bush is doing a little strip for Jewish voters.

His comments will only bring more chaos to the area; it will not bring peace in anyway.


actually its right on topic and in fact most christians believe that the temple has to be rebuilt as the next sign of the return of christ. the last sign was the reconstitution of the nation of israel.

if it were flipped flopped - I a m sure we would be hearing all about the mosque that was desecrated when the jews destroyed it and built their temple on top of it - its land - its history - so yes it is very on topic.

as far as location - it is the correct location. that is very well documented by archeaologists and historians worldwide - both christian, muslim and jewish - so there is no argument there.
in fact the wall of the temple is in tact - it is now the wailing wall.

Bush and Sharon are buddies. If Bush was really smart, he would've told Sharon to get those settlements off Palenstine land asap with a timeline and if Sharon refused, break relations with Isreal. The U.S. is about the only nation on the planet that has relations with Isreal.

Originally posted by barleduc
One would almost think Sharon prepared Bush's "new realities" speech :D

I am sure Sharon will go back to Israel with a big smile on his face.

Originally posted by sailor
I am sure the morons here will be happy to mind their business when the other countries morons you are referring to step up to the plate and control their idiots. like - dont let them come over here and hijack our planes and blow up our buildings and you wont see us over there as much.


a very simple question...which of those 2 things happened first and where?

Originally posted by sailor
in fact most christians believe that the temple has to be rebuilt as the next sign of the return of christ.

And there we have the problem in a nutshell (at least in regard to US invlovement), the number of mentals who believe in things like the rapture. Unfortunately these people are allowed to vote and are large enough in number to cause most presidents a problem if they upset them (although in the case of Bush it could well be academic), thus we have why America defends a country condemned by the rest of the world.

Hopefully one day America will elect a great man as president again, one that puts what is right or wrong before his own election chances, but I won't hold my breath.

Originally posted by feather
I am sure the morons here will be happy to mind their business when the other countries morons you are referring to step up to the plate and control their idiots. like - dont let them come over here and hijack our planes and blow up our buildings and you wont see us over there as much.
That holds no ground, USA was around butting into everyone else business way before 9/11, you just got a taste of your own medice ... "Very Sour" now you know how others feel.

Originally posted by feather
a very simple question...which of those 2 things happened first and where?

I was wondering the same, lets not forget the USA never does wrong in some peoples eyes.

Originally posted by bagpuss
And there we have the problem in a nutshell (at least in regard to US invlovement), the number of mentals who believe in things like the rapture. Unfortunately these people are allowed to vote and are large enough in number to cause most presidents a problem if they upset them (although in the case of Bush it could well be academic), thus we have why America defends a country condemned by the rest of the world.

Hopefully one day America will elect a great man as president again, one that puts what is right or wrong before his own election chances, but I won't hold my breath.

I took offense to that. I believe in the Rapture. I'm mental now? :angry:

There's a little thing called RESPECT, I'd use it if I were you.

Regards,
Waylon

Originally posted by sailor
actually its right on topic and in fact most christians believe that the temple has to be rebuilt as the next sign of the return of christ. the last sign was the reconstitution of the nation of israel.

That's not entirely accurate. There are way too many different variations of Christianity to pin that on Christianity. The Protestant view is outlined in the book of Revelations...such things as: peace in the Middle East, one world leader, etc...

Regards,
Waylon

Originally posted by Velostream
I took offense to that. I believe in the Rapture. I'm mental now? :angry:

There's a little thing called RESPECT, I'd use it if I were you.

Regards,
Waylon

I agree - this thread has had a couple of instances now of people calling others mentals or morons due to what they believe in . a little unproductive.

:rolleyes:

I guess then everyone would be mentals based on somehting they believe depending on who you ask.

Originally posted by s.h.a.zz.y
That holds no ground, USA was around butting into everyone else business way before 9/11, you just got a taste of your own medice ... "Very Sour" now you know how others feel.



I was wondering the same, lets not forget the USA never does wrong in some peoples eyes.

the first part was actually a quote from me not vfeather. can you tell me how we have been in other peoples business and others have not??

is britain above this? is iraq above this , please inform me who is not in others business. I guess its a good thing we all get in each others business from time to time - usally is for the good.

I am a little disappointed by saying that 9/11 is a taste of our own medicine. is this really how you feel?

Originally posted by Velostream
That's not entirely accurate. There are way too many different variations of Christianity to pin that on Christianity. The Protestant view is outlined in the book of Revelations...such things as: peace in the Middle East, one world leader, etc...

Regards,
Waylon

mine is the view as you say from the the new testament in the bible - I am not sure what variations of true christianity go with a different view outside of what the bible says?

and btw - I am definately not a very good bible scholar - so if I mis state something on here - a simple correction with a citation to the appropriate verse will be appreciated. :)

Originally posted by Velostream
I took offense to that. I believe in the Rapture. I'm mental now? :angry:


Fine it's your right to believe what you want and it's my right to have the same respect for people who believe in fairytales like the rapture as I reserve for people who believe in fairies at the bottom of their garden, the loch ness monster and genetically altered lizards running the world, which is none.

Originally posted by bagpuss
Fine it's your right to believe what you want and it's my right to have the same respect for people who believe in fairytales like the rapture as I reserve for people who believe in fairies at the bottom of their garden, the loch ness monster and genetically altered lizards running the world, which is none.

Yes, but you don't have the right to break forum rules and say someone is something because of what they believe.

Regards,
Waylon

Originally posted by Velostream
Yes, but you don't have the right to break forum rules and say someone is something because of what they believe.


I didn't make a comment about someone, I made it about a group of people.

I've read the rules there appears to be nothing in there about making a comment about a group due to their beliefs.

How is me making a comment about people who believe in the rapture any different from the hundreds of comments along similar lines in this forum about the beliefs of other groups such a communists, KKK, BNP, Nazis, protestors, islamic fundamentalists and so on?

Originally posted by bagpuss
I didn't make a comment about someone, I made it about a group of people.

I've read the rules there appears to be nothing in there about making a comment about a group due to their beliefs.

How is me making a comment about people who believe in the rapture any different from the hundreds of comments along similar lines in this forum about the beliefs of other groups such a communists, KKK, BNP, Nazis, protestors, islamic fundamentalists and so on?

Oh please. You're going to compare Christians to those who spread hate and have murderded hundreds upon thousands, collectively? Communists, KKK, BNP, Nazis, islamic fundamentalists have all spread havoc. Last I checked, no one who believes in the rapture has done that.

From Forum rules:

We take the "Be Polite" rule very seriously! We do not tolerate any rudeness. Any member who is intentionally unpleasant or disruptive may be banned without warning.

Regards,
Waylon

Originally posted by sailor
can you tell me how we have been in other peoples business and others have not??


If your going to ask me such a question in the first place than I think there is no point at all of me answering.


is britain above this? is iraq above this , please inform me who is not in others business. I guess its a good thing we all get in each others business from time to time - usally is for the good.

Well US and UK are above the rest as they surely have enough bombs to level everyone else and i will agree with you that when US and UK get involved in some thing it is for there own good not others!!


I am a little disappointed by saying that 9/11 is a taste of our own medicine. is this really how you feel?

exactly that! made them...armed them...just name them! osma to bob and he can live right next to your house o yea like everything else have the CIA or some one teach him bible says kill muslims and he'll do that as well :-d

guns and bombs they still use were given by the US to fight the russians and some stuff they took from the russians...US interests caused alot more innocent deaths than those of 3,000.

US spends some thing like what 500 billion $ on its miltary etc every year half of the world budget and the rest is proberly UK...i guess all for the most obvious reasons..

Originally posted by bagpuss
And there we have the problem in a nutshell (at least in regard to US invlovement), the number of mentals who believe in things like the rapture. Unfortunately these people are allowed to vote and are large enough in number to cause most presidents a problem if they upset them (although in the case of Bush it could well be academic), thus we have why America defends a country condemned by the rest of the world.

Hopefully one day America will elect a great man as president again, one that puts what is right or wrong before his own election chances, but I won't hold my breath.

The number of mentals?

So let me get this straight, people who believe in the rapture are mental?

What I find funny about your posts is most conservatives/Christians are accused of being 'close minded' yet calling a group of people (as you call them) mental is extremly closed minded...

Get a clue..

Originally posted by feather
If your going to ask me such a question in the first place than I think there is no point at all of me answering.



Well US and UK are above the rest as they surely have enough bombs to level everyone else and i will agree with you that when US and UK get involved in some thing it is for there own good not others!!



exactly that! made them...armed them...just name them! osma to bob and he can live right next to your house o yea like everything else have the CIA or some one teach him bible says kill muslims and he'll do that as well :-d

guns and bombs they still use were given by the US to fight the russians and some stuff they took from the russians...US interests caused alot more innocent deaths than those of 3,000.

US spends some thing like what 500 billion $ on its miltary etc every year half of the world budget and the rest is proberly UK...i guess all for the most obvious reasons..

I think you need to go look at some more history and occurences. iraq - kuwait, etc etc. and even go back further, egyptian slavery of jews, etc etc, there are plenty of bad things out there.

I just laugh though when someone likes to quote only a few expamples in recent history of things and tries to point the worlds woes to one group.

were all in it and all have wronged someone at some time. I think one thing we all agree on is - we all wish it were different and there was peace and prosperity. I for one still have a lot of sites in the middle east that I would like to see.....but not any time soon i am afraid. :(


btw - what country are you from - I will give you some examples if you like of your countries wrongs. we all have them you know. ;)

Originally posted by Velostream
Oh please. You're going to compare Christians to those who spread hate and have murderded hundreds upon thousands, collectively? Communists, KKK, BNP, Nazis, islamic fundamentalists have all spread havoc. Last I checked, no one who believes in the rapture has done that.


Oh please yourself, many of the derogatory comments on this forum about communisim for example are simply about it's idealogy and have nothing to do with murdering hundreds of thousands.

The same applies to the BNP and Islam, I noticed you conviently missed protestors, but to add to the list of groups / people that have had far worse comments made about them on this forum than mine about those who believe in the rapture, try, the republicans, the democrats, Bush, Blair, Chirac, the French, liberals, Microsoft and so on (most of whom haven't murdered hundreds of thousands to my knowledge). I see no difference between the various comments on these people / groups and mine about people who believe in the rapture.

Originally posted by bagpuss
Oh please yourself, many of the derogatory comments on this forum about communisim for example are simply about it's idealogy and have nothing to do with murdering hundreds of thousands.

The same applies to the BNP and Islam, I noticed you conviently missed protestors, but to add to the list of groups / people that have had far worse comments made about them on this forum than mine about those who believe in the rapture, try, the republicans, the democrats, Bush, Blair, Chirac, the French, liberals, Microsoft and so on (most of whom haven't murdered hundreds of thousands to my knowledge). I see no difference between the various comments on these people / groups and mine about people who believe in the rapture.

Of course you wouldn't. I'm not going to sit here and debate with you about this. Your justifications are your opinion, and I happen to challenge your opinion and disagree. Agreeing to disagree now. I would like to suggest that you rethink what you're talking about and what you're comparing it to.

Regards,
Waylon

Originally posted by bagpuss
Oh please yourself, many of the derogatory comments on this forum about communisim for example are simply about it's idealogy and have nothing to do with murdering hundreds of thousands.

The same applies to the BNP and Islam, I noticed you conviently missed protestors, but to add to the list of groups / people that have had far worse comments made about them on this forum than mine about those who believe in the rapture, try, the republicans, the democrats, Bush, Blair, Chirac, the French, liberals, Microsoft and so on (most of whom haven't murdered hundreds of thousands to my knowledge). I see no difference between the various comments on these people / groups and mine about people who believe in the rapture.


altough I disagree with your point of views and beliefs on many topics - I do agree with you here and i agree that if you want to have no respect for me due to my beliefs and you want to think I am moron for it - that is your right and you are free to express it - it actually in retrospect does not bother me. I think most people have a an initial reaction of defensiveness - however a quick moment of retrospection usually cures this for me.

:)

hey - we argree on something!!!!

Originally posted by interactive
So let me get this straight, people who believe in the rapture are mental?


Why not, if someone genuinely believed that fairies lived at the bottom of their garden, then I think most people would think they weren't all there, I can't see any reason not to think the same of people that genuinely think some guy who has been dead for 2000 years is going to magically come back and whisk all the christians off to a magic fairyland called heaven for their protection.

Originally posted by bagpuss
Why not, if someone genuinely believed that fairies lived at the bottom of their garden, then I think most people would think they weren't all there, I can't see any reason not to think the same of people that genuinely think some guy who has been dead for 2000 years is going to magically come back and whisk all the christians off to a magic fairyland called heaven for their protection.

I see your point. however can you prove that he is still dead?
also - can you prove that he did not do many miracles?

if you can present me some good documented evidence and some proof that it isnt true - that will get me thinking. however seeing as how no one has been able to do that yet - and there are many widely documented stories on it and hundreds of millions people believe in this (unlike fairies in the garden - which I am sure there are a couple out there) - then I will choose to stick with this one.

but its cool - you can think I will am crazy - respect that - I however believe I am not going to need air conditioning where I am going when I die a physical death.

oh yeah - can you prove there is no afterlife? so your belief that there is no afterlife is just as founded in faith as ours that there is.

any way - just a thought for you ponder since you cant prove this one way or another.

Originally posted by sailor
I do agree with you here

Firstly, stop it your scaring me. :)

Originally posted by sailor
I see your point. however can you prove that he is still dead?
also - can you prove that he did not do many miracles?

if you can present me some good documented evidence and some proof that it isnt true - that will get me thinking.


No I can't prove it, but then without wishing to offend the christian world further :D , I wouldn't even bother trying to convince someone who is religous they might be wrong, it's a futile exercise.

Originally posted by sailor

hundreds of millions people believe in this (unlike fairies in the garden - which I am sure there are a couple out there) - then I will choose to stick with this one.


And millions of people believe we will be reincarnated, the christians think they are going to convert the jews, the jews of course disagree and millions of others believe there are several gods as opposed to one, clearly they can't all be right (or maybe any of them).

Originally posted by sailor

oh yeah - can you prove there is no afterlife? so your belief that there is no afterlife is just as founded in faith as ours that there is.


No I can't prove there is no afterlife, but then I can't prove we all don't just exist in the mind of a huge intergalatic pink and white cat either.

No my belief in there being no afterlife is not the same, I am not an atheist (although I am as close as you could be), I believe their to be no afterlife in the sense, of it's my opinion, in all probability, where as many people who believe in God / the rapture / heaven etc seem to believe in the sense it's a fact, without doubt.

Originally posted by bagpuss

No my belief in there being no afterlife is not the same, I am not an atheist (although I am as close as you could be), I believe their to be no afterlife in the sense, of it's my opinion, in all probability, where as many people who believe in God / the rapture / heaven etc seem to believe in the sense it's a fact, without doubt.

It's called faith.

Originally posted by bagpuss
Why not, if someone genuinely believed that fairies lived at the bottom of their garden, then I think most people would think they weren't all there, I can't see any reason not to think the same of people that genuinely think some guy who has been dead for 2000 years is going to magically come back and whisk all the christians off to a magic fairyland called heaven for their protection.


Well you sir/mam/it are mental because you believe in the internet...

Originally posted by sailor
I think you need to go look at some more history and occurences. iraq - kuwait, etc etc. and even go back further, egyptian slavery of jews, etc etc, there are plenty of bad things out there.

I just laugh though when someone likes to quote only a few expamples in recent history of things and tries to point the worlds woes to one group.

were all in it and all have wronged someone at some time. I think one thing we all agree on is - we all wish it were different and there was peace and prosperity. I for one still have a lot of sites in the middle east that I would like to see.....but not any time soon i am afraid. :(


btw - what country are you from - I will give you some examples if you like of your countries wrongs. we all have them you know. ;)

First I know enough history to know what i am talking abt 2nd stay on this subject as we aren't going to debate abt the world. You asked a question which i thought was rather 'stupid'.

You can laugh all you want perhaps that is the only thing you can do...I am not going to talk abt some thing that happened 1000 years ago we are talking abt what is happening now and if it is wrong or not.

just to make things easier for you I'll agree with you that we all have done wrong at one time or another...but do you go around doing wrong and saying your doing right? what the US is doing is wrong by saying they are trying to free the iraqi ppl from saddam and which took 1000's innocents to there deaths. You might agrue otherwise but what you fail to understand is those ppl who are blowing themselves argue otherwise as well for them US is the bad guy much as anybody else if not worse.

The best thing you can do right now is back up what you said by answering my question which i asked earlier incase you might have forgotten. It was abt who got in whos bussiness first?

9/11 just happened but afgani ppl were in war for 22 years!! thanks to the US....they had 5 million mines in there land given by the US that were blowing away there children...lets not forget that osma was powered by the US and what he teaches now was also the idea of the US. I think you need bit more of a history or maybe your not really interested in this. All this happened in recent times due to the US interests...every action has its reaction...if you come to my home...expect me to come to yours its just a natural reaction.

US is giving isreal miltary aids which is not liked by the arabs so US is hated as the whole arab would doesn't agree with the US. now if the arabs were to provide bombs so they can just go around and blow things you would think little differently....it is much easier to say 10 innocent ppl died today becouse isreal has the right to defend herself...if you hear that same lame excuse tommorrow don't be suprised. Arabs don't make no war plans or war ships bombs they can manage to defend themselves i guess that is the only thing right now they can do...

Also just to get things right...I am from pakistan and i am well aware of the wrong doings there as well...and thanks to the US we have had more deaths there than the US has had from terror attacks. You see those ppl who are now against the US were once working for the CIA and were given the resources they have now to do all the harm. My religion doesn't support such things...my country is against it...this is why we fight against terror everyday...helping the US...but surely US is not liked by all nor many ppl support...and if your going to read some thing in news that some pakistani clerk said to kill americans...lol just know...he once worked for the US as well...becouse i haven't heard that from any normal cleric yet plus the whole country isn't very fond of the idea of killing innocent ppl but than again they are lame as well and end up saying they have the right to defend themselves...

last but not least...if ever the US backs of isreal...I don't really know what will happen than but i can tell you those ppl will make isreal pay for what it is doing now...you might not like it...or many here might not like it...but that is how it will be

It is hard to discuss the things happening today. Why? Well, the situation today is a an effect to many things in the past, many wrong doings. It should have never got to this situation, this position. There were many poor decisions, and cowardly acts committed by the "civilized world" in the past, many decades ago and this world situation is just a result of it. That's why it is so hard to say who is the one responsible for the mess in the world. Actually you can not answer who's the bad guy today. On the other hand, those who are blind have a quick answer, Arabs. They are the terrorists, they blow them selves up, they kill the innocent, they do this, they do that...

Have you for once heard somebody, anybody, who was not Arab, speak out loud on the television, about someone else being responsible for this state the world is in but the Arabs? Everybody is with the Jews. Of course, if you were to single out one and only one group of people with the most money in their hands and pockets, it would definitely be the Jews. They are probably the most powerful and successful lobby in the world today. What fool would go against them? There's no such person. Besides, I think what Sharon is doing now (what a better world would it be if I spoke of the Stone one instead... whew...) is an act of fascism... Remember the good old Rabin, Ytzak Rabin, that man did a far better job, he actually wanted to make peace with the Arabs... but he was shot by an Israeli man... apparently, he was too soft on the Arabs...

I'm for the Jews, I find some of the philosophical aspects very close to my own believes, there are certain thing about their lifestyle I appreciate. There are fewer things, I do not want to say none, to which I can relate regarding the Arabs. Yet I'm on their side, on the Arab side.

When you listen to the news, you here: "Israeli tanks attacked refugee camps and killed...". When they talk about the Arabs, you here: "... an Arab blew him-self and twelve more on a city bus...".

Who's the one with more power? These have tanks and those have... nothing!

I hate Arabs for killing the innocent, I think many things regarding their religion are BS and it gives them great support in their holly war, holly my a$%. If there was a god, he'd smash you all and the Jews with you, for that fact, I trust he'd remove us all from this planet, cause human race is a disease of this planet, with those ignorant Canadians killing the seals... makes me sick...

Nevertheless, what the world refuses to see, is that it spends so much on warfare, but doing nothing to improve the quality of living for the poor and those in need...

In sub Saharan Africa people live on one (1) dollar per day on the average. How much money did Bush already spend on the Iraq war that's only just beginning? Well over a hundred billion dollars. See the difference? So ok, we have the money, we have the power, but we shall not help you, your part of the world, we'll bomb you and kill your children. I bet that in twenty - thirty years from now, everybody will make peace with the Arabs. We'll have a new warfare testing polygon, Africa. New enemies on the rise, new world threats, new hates...

Many years back our civilized world mistreated some other parts of the world. We have been using and exploiting them since. Many of those people that turned terrorist were once normal citizens, law obeying people, who meant no harm. They just lost it at one point or another.

I'm not talking about Bin Laden and those alike him, no sir... He's a rich brat, brought up in unthinkable wealth, trained by the CIA to do what he has been doing now. He's supposed to be doing this for the people? Yhea, not in this movie. Well, he's a Hollywood star. He's on every channel. Just like Bush or Sharon. TV Stars. I think his kind should be locked away, madmen.

And for the Bush, I think he's the one who's got the most out of 9/11. Just when all the media was getting ready to hit him about the elections which he did not win, this tragedy happened. Coincidence? Oh, please. Like Ashcroft said, we should blame Clinton for what happened. Really? Could we really? I think Clinton was one of the best president US had in decades. The World loved him and loved the US for that fact. What's the state of US economy? Any new jobs? US must be a rich country having no better place to invest 100 billion dollars than war. So there are no public schools that need infrastructure enhancement, there are no steel plants to modernize, no roads to mend? Lucky US.

Clinton was about to get impeached, cause some chick gave head? Bush made up a war, got 600 US troopers killed and he's still standing?! Whow, I think the next time a democrat gets to be the president, he must get more friends among military industrials.

But let's get back to the Arabs. Can you remember the name of that guy who blew him self in the market place last summer in June on the West Bank? He killed more than 10 people and injured many more. Can you? No you can not, I wonder why, him being such a terrorist. Well, I can't either. That's cause he was probably some poor old bastard with no other options, so he must have thought, crying in a desert with no one to listen, being utterly desperate he'd be helping his people somehow. There was probably some Muslim priest promising him heaven for doing it, too, jack a$#. I bet his wife gave him a hard time before he left though. I am certain Muslim widows are just as unhappy as widows of the civilized world.

Those Arabs are unhappy, because they don't have a normal life. They have no money, no food, no security and no jobs. After WWII Israelis where given a country, those Arabs got nothing. The world owed it to the Jews, because of the Holocaust. Ok, it was the only fair thing to do, but that never meant Arabs had to be forgotten about. Today, it is normal and expected of the Israelis to protect them-selves from the Arabs, killing them and destroying there homes. On the other hands, the Arabs should have no right, needs or demands whatsoever. How come? Should we beam them to the Moon? Hey: "Captain to Chief, a nation to beam, destination Moon". Sometimes Sharon is so brutal I want to ring him up and suggest that instead of building a wall and killing the Arabs one by one, he could introduce an A bomb, I'm sure his biggest ally would be more than happy to land him a hand...

Apart from the mad ones - you recognize those by getting on TV often, they never die, too - terrorist become out of frustration. Do you honestly believe that a guy with a family, a wife and three kids, a good job, solid wage, nice flat or a house, would leave all that and go kill some people? If you do, I'm sorry for you. There's no way you can convince me, that guy would go and blow him self up. No way. Everybody wants to live, living is good, life is good, especially, if you can enjoy it and live like a man should live.

The problem is that we don't give a crap about how they live. It's their problem, we do not want to help them. I mean, what would happen, if they were to prosper, have tech of their own, evolve to the grade where they would not need us. My god, what if all the third world suddenly got updated, upgraded in sociopolitical and economical, technological sense. They would not need us. How horrible, we wouldn't be able to control them any more, we would not be able to play wars any more, no no, we can not let that happen. We must restrain them, hold them undeveloped. I can see some US / Euro / Jap top heads right now: "We must have the precious...".

Get rid of the poverty and I doubt we'd be seeing more terrorism. Somehow I have trouble linking terrorists to Dubai or Brunei, I wonder why...

For all the US readers just this question. In a word where there is free market and prices tend to equalize, especially in goods that are well distributed all over the world, don't you question how can it be that oil in the US is four (4) times cheaper than in the Europe and would cases like Iraq have anything to do with it.

Finally I hope Sharon steps down, he's a bad man and I hope Bin Ladens steps in an elevator shaft. I hope Kerry wins the elections and cleans this mess that Bush made (funny when I come to it, it seems democrats have been cleaning after republicans for years).

I wish a better tomorrow to all,

Regards,
Airnine

I’m SHOCKED, SAILOR, WHAT BROUGHT RELIGION TO THE TABLE?
WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY??

according to your and bush new concept, AL-aqsa is above the temple- i will not discuss that- but it should stay like this, because its the reality on ground, if you want to bring AL-aqsa down, let me tell you this, every Muslim will fight you till all die, no Muslim is willing give this right to you.

so according to you, Muslims temple must go, and comes the Christian Jewish temple, so the Muslims will fight back to bring the new temple down, and when its down the Muslims will build a new temple, so ppl thinking your way will try to bring Muslims new temple(#2) down.............what kind of a game is this??

you are actually saying(loud and clear), that every one should fight for his (religious believes) if it meant to wipe others out?

I find your thinking are very extreme, i'm a believer, but i don't believe that any (true) religion will call for violent acts, unless you are defending you own life or land.

i have ALOT of Christian friends who doesn't believe in the rapture, i think all orthodox doesn't believe in this, i know some Jewish groups think Israel state is evil, and it shouldn't be there will the messiah is back, so you see , if everyone followed his won believes to the extreme and never gave a space for tolerance, then we're all bin laden .

this is all off topic, you want the aqsa, take it......are you happy now??
my question is, why is Israel eating up ALL the rest of the unholy land, why is Israel eating resources??

Sharon, or Bush, or any politician, are not religious as may some think, they are all liars, Sharon will be on trail for bribe right? Bush lies all the time, right? Clinton cheated on his wife, right?

to bring religion to the table, you will lose more than you will gain.

It is hard to discuss the things happening today. Why? Well, the situation today is a an effect to many things in the past, many wrong doings. It should have never got to this situation, this position. There were many poor decisions, and cowardly acts committed by the "civilized world" in the past, many decades ago and this world situation is just a result of it. That's why it is so hard to say who is the one responsible for the mess in the world. Actually you can not answer who's the bad guy today. On the other hand, those who are blind have a quick answer, Arabs. They are the terrorists, they blow them selves up, they kill the innocent, they do this, they do that...

Have you for once heard somebody, anybody, who was not Arab, speak out loud on the television, about someone else being responsible for this state the world is in but the Arabs? Everybody is with the Jews. Of course, if you were to single out one and only one group of people with the most money in their hands and pockets, it would definitely be the Jews. They are probably the most powerful and successful lobby in the world today. What fool would go against them? There's no such person. Besides, I think what Sharon is doing now (what a better world would it be if I spoke of the Stone one instead... whew...) is an act of fascism... Remember the good old Rabin, Ytzak Rabin, that man did a far better job, he actually wanted to make peace with the Arabs... but he was shot by an Israeli man... apparently, he was too soft on the Arabs...

I'm for the Jews, I find some of the philosophical aspects very close to my own believes, there are certain thing about their lifestyle I appreciate. There are fewer things, I do not want to say none, to which I can relate regarding the Arabs. Yet I'm on their side, on the Arab side.

When you listen to the news, you here: "Israeli tanks attacked refugee camps and killed...". When they talk about the Arabs, you here: "... an Arab blew him-self and twelve more on a city bus...".

Who's the one with more power? These have tanks and those have... nothing!

I hate Arabs for killing the innocent, I think many things regarding their religion are BS and it gives them great support in their holly war, holly my a$%. If there was a god, he'd smash you all and the Jews with you, for that fact, I trust he'd remove us all from this planet, cause human race is a disease of this planet, with those ignorant Canadians killing the seals... makes me sick...

Nevertheless, what the world refuses to see, is that it spends so much on warfare, but doing nothing to improve the quality of living for the poor and those in need...

In sub Saharan Africa people live on one (1) dollar per day on the average. How much money did Bush already spend on the Iraq war that's only just beginning? Well over a hundred billion dollars. See the difference? So ok, we have the money, we have the power, but we shall not help you, your part of the world, we'll bomb you and kill your children. I bet that in twenty - thirty years from now, everybody will make peace with the Arabs. We'll have a new warfare testing polygon, Africa. New enemies on the rise, new world threats, new hates...

Many years back our civilized world mistreated some other parts of the world. We have been using and exploiting them since. Many of those people that turned terrorist were once normal citizens, law obeying people, who meant no harm. They just lost it at one point or another.

I'm not talking about Bin Laden and those alike him, no sir... He's a rich brat, brought up in unthinkable wealth, trained by the CIA to do what he has been doing now. He's supposed to be doing this for the people? Yhea, not in this movie. Well, he's a Hollywood star. He's on every channel. Just like Bush or Sharon. TV Stars. I think his kind should be locked away, madmen.

And for the Bush, I think he's the one who's got the most out of 9/11. Just when all the media was getting ready to hit him about the elections which he did not win, this tragedy happened. Coincidence? Oh, please. Like Ashcroft said, we should blame Clinton for what happened. Really? Could we really? I think Clinton was one of the best president US had in decades. The World loved him and loved the US for that fact. What's the state of US economy? Any new jobs? US must be a rich country having no better place to invest 100 billion dollars than war. So there are no public schools that need infrastructure enhancement, there are no steel plants to modernize, no roads to mend? Lucky US.

Clinton was about to get impeached, cause some chick gave head? Bush made up a war, got 600 US troopers killed and he's still standing?! Whow, I think the next time a democrat gets to be the president, he must get more friends among military industrials.

But let's get back to the Arabs. Can you remember the name of that guy who blew him self in the market place last summer in June on the West Bank? He killed more than 10 people and injured many more. Can you? No you can not, I wonder why, him being such a terrorist. Well, I can't either. That's cause he was probably some poor old bastard with no other options, so he must have thought, crying in a desert with no one to listen, being utterly desperate he'd be helping his people somehow. There was probably some Muslim priest promising him heaven for doing it, too, jack a$#. I bet his wife gave him a hard time before he left though. I am certain Muslim widows are just as unhappy as widows of the civilized world.

Those Arabs are unhappy, because they don't have a normal life. They have no money, no food, no security and no jobs. After WWII Israelis where given a country, those Arabs got nothing. The world owed it to the Jews, because of the Holocaust. Ok, it was the only fair thing to do, but that never meant Arabs had to be forgotten about. Today, it is normal and expected of the Israelis to protect them-selves from the Arabs, killing them and destroying there homes. On the other hands, the Arabs should have no right, needs or demands whatsoever. How come? Should we beam them to the Moon? Hey: "Captain to Chief, a nation to beam, destination Moon". Sometimes Sharon is so brutal I want to ring him up and suggest that instead of building a wall and killing the Arabs one by one, he could introduce an A bomb, I'm sure his biggest ally would be more than happy to land him a hand...

Apart from the mad ones - you recognize those by getting on TV often, they never die, too - terrorist become out of frustration. Do you honestly believe that a guy with a family, a wife and three kids, a good job, solid wage, nice flat or a house, would leave all that and go kill some people? If you do, I'm sorry for you. There's no way you can convince me, that guy would go and blow him self up. No way. Everybody wants to live, living is good, life is good, especially, if you can enjoy it and live like a man should live.

The problem is that we don't give a crap about how they live. It's their problem, we do not want to help them. I mean, what would happen, if they were to prosper, have tech of their own, evolve to the grade where they would not need us. My god, what if all the third world suddenly got updated, upgraded in sociopolitical and economical, technological sense. They would not need us. How horrible, we wouldn't be able to control them any more, we would not be able to play wars any more, no no, we can not let that happen. We must restrain them, hold them undeveloped. I can see some US / Euro / Jap top heads right now: "We must have the precious...".

Get rid of the poverty and I doubt we'd be seeing more terrorism. Somehow I have trouble linking terrorists to Dubai or Brunei, I wonder why...

For all the US readers just this question. In a word where there is free market and prices tend to equalize, especially in goods that are well distributed all over the world, don't you question how can it be that oil in the US is four (4) times cheaper than in the Europe and would cases like Iraq have anything to do with it.

Finally I hope Sharon steps down, he's a bad man and I hope Bin Ladens steps in an elevator shaft. I hope Kerry wins the elections and cleans this mess that Bush made (funny when I come to it, it seems democrats have been cleaning after republicans for years).

I wish a better tomorrow to all,


Excellent Post!