Working a good amount of years as an EMPLOYEE of Web Hosting companies I have the following to say/rant:

<rant>

I know everyone is free to do whatever it is they want to do ("as long as it is legal"), but why on earth are there so many clueless people trying to run Web Hosting companies?

I have personally dealt with many OWNERS of hosting companies (you know, one man operations) who don't know what DNS is other than they need to fill some DNS garbage in when they register a domain. Or if I say Apache they think i'm talking about some head-scalping native american.

It's ok if a person starts a hosting company who isn't "skilled" in the hosting area, but makes up for that by hiring an employee with those skills.

Some of these people end up being quite successful and turn a nice profit. This has been making me wonder over the past few months, if they can do it, i CERTAINLY can do it.

Many other technically inclined people can as well, so why don't you guys?

I'd rather own a small business that pays my bills and allows me to vacation in Europe during Oktoberfest (read: german beer rules).

Seriously though, all of you sys admins, higher level techs, and so on should think about starting your own company and gain freedom. If it works for the clueless, don't you think you have the upper hand?

</rant>

No offense to any clueless people, of course :)

Originally posted by abzug
Or if I say Apache they think i'm talking about some head-scalping native american.

I don't believe this. At least they should know that Apache is some sort of software. :rolleyes:

Some of these people end up being quite successful and turn a nice profit. This has been making me wonder over the past few months, if they can do it, i CERTAINLY can do it.
Many other technically inclined people can as well, so why don't you guys?

Hm. Just a note: not every CEO has technical skills and not every technician has commercial skills. I saw many very good technicians fail in starting their own company! (of course not meant offensive!).
In a market with a tough competition it's not very easy to place a new company between all thos sharks. :)

Originally posted by Walter


I don't believe this. At least they should know that Apache is some sort of software. :rolleyes:


Hm. Just a note: not every CEO has technical skills and not every technician has commercial skills. I saw many very good technicians fail in starting their own company! (of course not meant offensive!).
In a market with a tough competition it's not very easy to place a new company between all thos sharks. :)

I'm serious about the Apache thing.
There also was a person who yelled at me because I didn't TELL HIM that it was ok to use any ip addresses on his server for a name server ip (the software was configured to listen on every ip so it didn't matter which ip, and this is the default config for BIND).

I guess I felt like I was/am in the position of being a teacher. A lot of people really don't need support, but need to RTFM or a book.

As for the CEO comment, I totally agree, but I was aiming my shotgun at one man operations (which I have found there to be MANY). If the CEO has a degree in business he should know to hire technical employees and form a good business, he wouldn't dare try running everything on his own.

Which leads to a further developing topic... when do you draw the line for support, honestly... if someone decides to get a hosting account, shouldn't they know how to debug their own html and use FTP? Come on... i've seen so many people who can't.

And FrontPage users? Wow, talk about headaches. They're too good for a text editor and an FTP program I suppose.

I have plans to start my own hosting company and I will try my best avoid FrontPage users. Did you know that the frontpage mod for apache isn't even supported? Does that say anything? Little documentation, etc.

I guess my target customer base would be people who know what they are doing (to some extent) and that KNOW what good service is.

Which leads me to this rant as well (sorry):

While I worked handling phone calls and email support I had found that roughly 50-60% of the inquiries came from people who persistantly had "problems" - This made me think, if there IS a real problem then why hasn't the thousands of other customers phoned/emailed in?

It really seemed like out of thousands of clients I really only was supporting a VERY small minority of them. Have any of you witnessed this sort of thing?

Like I said... I should have just went into teaching :)

People really focus on customer support these days... why?
I think it's because users like to break things and expect someone to clean up after them everything, isn't that abuse of support?
If you set up servers so they couldn't break anything, then they would never need to contact customer support and it wouldn't be such a big focus.

So i've come to find people who ask for companies with "excellent customer support" know they mess everything up often and want to make sure there is someone there to clean it up.

Again, not my target customer base ;)

Do I even have a point?

I suppose that leaves the rest of you guys to take in these people, who will only give you headaches, for what... $5-10/month?

Ok, I was just looking around at some other threads and did some searches and it's amazing how many people ask "how do i start a hosting company?".

In my opinion, if you ask that question, you're not ready at all.
No where near ready.

Originally posted by abzug
I guess I felt like I was/am in the position of being a teacher. A lot of people really don't need support, but need to RTFM or a book.

Very true. But please concern that who is the average web hosting client: web designers, small business owners who do all the work themself, newbies, and so on. It's not their business to know all about the hosting thing and most of them don't even want to know it.

if someone decides to get a hosting account, shouldn't they know how to debug their own html and use FTP? Come on... i've seen so many people who can't.

If you have a business plan and you don't want to target this market, fine, but you are about to ignore many, many potential customers.

I guess my target customer base would be people who know what they are doing (to some extent) and that KNOW what good service is.

That's a really problem with hosting: there are so many people out there who where burned by hosts or at least think so (!) many know what good service is, but it is hard to show proof for this as a host.

People really focus on customer support these days... why? I think it's because users like to break things and expect someone to clean up after them everything, isn't that abuse of support?

Just the same as in software industry. But of course there is also stupid software and real bugs.

If you set up servers so they couldn't break anything, then they would never need to contact customer support and it wouldn't be such a big focus.

They will break it, believe me.

$5-10/month?

Thats a very valid point, at least for me. $5 / month is next to nothing, and doesn't cover many costs.

Originally posted by Walter


Very true. But please concern that who is the average web hosting client: web designers, small business owners who do all the work themself, newbies, and so on. It's not their business to know all about the hosting thing and most of them don't even want to know it.



If you have a business plan and you don't want to target this market, fine, but you are about to ignore many, many potential customers.



That's a really problem with hosting: there are so many people out there who where burned by hosts or at least think so (!) many know what good service is, but it is hard to show proof for this as a host.



Just the same as in software industry. But of course there is also stupid software and real bugs.



They will break it, believe me.



Thats a very valid point, at least for me. $5 / month is next to nothing, and doesn't cover many costs.

I think the average hosting client knows enough to educate themselves before deciding to get into getting hosted, but i've been proven wrong many, many times. Typically speaking, the cheaper accounts tend to be where the headaches are, that really bothers me...
Say you have a support employee who gets paid $15/hour
A client who pays $5/month calls up for a total of one hour per month. You are most likely losing money if you have a busy support department.


As for software bugs... most hosting companies setups I have viewed are flawed to begin with.
RedHat + NT seem to be the standard, and they both are horrible in their own ways.

If you're going to use Linux, maybe you should do a little research and find out that, even though RedHat is very corporate and well funded, it isn't one of the better, reliable, solid Linux distros. They like to make you test their software, so they throw in every new thing there is and hope it works. Not to mention security.

Oh, and another thought occured to me.

If you have 1000 customers, and they all are provided with 24/7 support.

What if they ALL keep calling in constantly?

Do you rush out and hire 25 employees @ $400/week?

That's $40k/month in employee costs

And if those clients are paying $8/month ($8k/month).

You are in the hole. Very deep I might add.

So you are offering support on the assumption that only X amount of people will "need" support at a given time.

And if 10% of your users constantly call in (100 users) and use up $2000 worth of employee time... is that a good business model?

Those 100 users are costing you $1200/month

Now if the other 800 users, who somewhat know what they are doing, only require the support facility of one employee you are making over very well.
800*8=$6400-employee pay ($1600)= $4800

Ditch the clients who cost YOU money.

Originally posted by abzug
Ditch the clients who cost YOU money.

Fine :D
Do you want to make a "webhosting knowledge contest" before someone can signup with your services?

Originally posted by Walter


Fine :D
Do you want to make a "webhosting knowledge contest" before someone can signup with your services?

Haha :)

I won't be offering a "Control Panel" - Simple scripts work the best for me, even with a web frontend.

The accounts aren't targeted towards "budget" customers.

Maybe I should just put a maze of links to the order page? ;)

Originally posted by abzug
Maybe I should just put a maze of links to the order page? ;)

I think a better solution is to disable telnet and FTP and require everyone to use SSH and SCP. This immediately filters out a large proportion of lusers, and it justifiable from a security point of view as well.

Originally posted by cperciva


I think a better solution is to disable telnet and FTP and require everyone to use SSH and SCP. This immediately filters out a large proportion of lusers, and it justifiable from a security point of view as well.

Ahah...true story:
"-I want a shell access, you said there is a shell access with every account
-Yes, it's a secure access, you need a SSH client though.
-What? So you're telling me I can't TELNET to my server? This is a rip-off!"

Oh boy.

Technical guy,
Seeting up your own hosting company and you will find that you also need helps for marketing, accounting, tax, (those will got you a headache). There isn't Apache in accounting but I'm sure you will find some technical terms that you don't know about.

BTW, I agreed that anyone don't know about Apache shouldn't run a hosting company.:D

Originally posted by cperciva
I think a better solution is to disable telnet and FTP and require everyone to use SSH and SCP. This immediately filters out a large proportion of lusers, and it justifiable from a security point of view as well.

Ok, Telnet and rest is ok for me, but why FTP? Some need it.

Originally posted by aska
Technical guy,
Seeting up your own hosting company and you will find that you also need helps for marketing, accounting, tax, (those will got you a headache). There isn't Apache in accounting but I'm sure you will find some technical terms that you don't know about.

BTW, I agreed that anyone don't know about Apache shouldn't run a hosting company.:D

I had intended to run a smaller company, just to support myself, if it grows beyond that... that's when I hire someone to do all that fun stuff.

I'm not in need of "enterprise" marketing, nor accounting... and I would certainly pay someone to handle the taxes.

It just seems like a lot of people are doing it backwards, they start with the business then slowly catch up with the technical, which doesn't make sense to me.

Originally posted by Walter


Ok, Telnet and rest is ok for me, but why FTP? Some need it.

If you're running a regular FTPD you may as well open up telnet too. Both send login information over the network in clear text.

FTPD is a broken protocol anyways, I remember setting up my first firewall and wanted to filter FTP access, it took a bit of reading before i stumbled over the fact that FTP uses port 20 as well as 21... Firewalling port 20 = lesson

Originally posted by Walter

Originally posted by cperciva
I think a better solution is to disable telnet and FTP and require everyone to use SSH and SCP. This immediately filters out a large proportion of lusers, and it justifiable from a security point of view as well.
Ok, Telnet and rest is ok for me, but why FTP? Some need it. Some would tell you they need it, just as some would tell you they need telnet. But they wouldn't need it, if they were using scp (secure copy) instead. Cperciva's point was that if you required the use of SSH and SCP instead of telnet and FTP, you'd find yourself with only the more advanced, experienced users.

Of course, he may also recommend that you place a disclaimer on your site along the lines of "If you need handholding, our company is not for you." :)

Originally posted by abzug
. . . .No offense to any clueless people, of course :) None taken. :rolleyes:

I'll stop back and give my views on you running a successful hosting company.

<akkkuummmmm> <cough>

Originally posted by JayC
Of course, he may also recommend that you place a disclaimer on your site along the lines of "If you need handholding, our company is not for you." :)

I prefer "All email from aol.com is immediately diverted to /dev/null" actually. :)

AOL. So easy to use, now wonder it's #1!

Yeah, so easy that people are not learning what they should be learning.. AOL keeps people ignorant and doesnt give them the chance to learn.. Then you have your hard core AOL users who defend it because they dont know any better...

WebDude I feel the same way about AOL. It's a great tool for personal use, but myself, I wouldn't even use it for free.

AOL: So easy to spam, no wonder it's #1. :D

Aloha
well some quick thoughts ;)
people are trying to start hosting companies to make money
just like they are becoming webdesigners with no experience
they want there share of the internet boom and they can rip off enough people to make a few bucks and give the rest of us honest people more work to win back trust.

as far as running a hosting company one does not need experience with running servers to be a success they need good business experience ?
not sure what your real world business exp is ???
you sound like more of a tech guy then a business guy
(not trying to sound harsh just observations)
mainly by saying
get rid of people that cost you money g
dont offer frontpage (yuck the worst butcher of code ;)
alternative to FTP
etc...
only for other techy people
well you may carve out a small niche but as soon as you start cutting people bad words will spread and you will be making no money (my thoughts at least)

I think you have to get a bus plan together and go over it a few times.

I'll be that most people here do not have a bsu plan and I bet that it is costing them money i the lopng run growth and more it is a proven fact that most all bus people who did not write a plan will fail and most that due write a plan succeed.

if you are a techy you will have to get some outside business help
if you are a business person you will have to get some techy help
goes both ways
(that is if you want to make money)
unless this is just a fun hobby then go for it carve out your techy niche and you could do very well
but if a few customers cost you money do not get rid of them they may be bringing you in money
also if they are costing you money you may want to rethink why ???? or how ????? they are costing me and adjust your bus model

Dont be fooled into thinking that more experienced users wont need much support, they just need support on more difficult stuff and will want php modules etc installed for their scripts.

I want to know how one goes about targeting the knowledgeable user. Maybe an essay test?

When I used to have to support a network appliance software package we used to joke about forcing a test before it would let you install.

1. What is an IP address?
2. What is a domain name?
3. What is an IP router?
4. What is DNS?
5. What is a cross-over cable?
6. How long have you been a system administrator?

I would love it if we only got web hosting customers that didn't require hand holding, but it's our own fault I think. We've lowered the prices of web hosting so low now that any one can afford to start their own web site as an impulse buy, instead of as a well though out investment.

Here's something from our "Before you order" page:

---

Web sites do not publish themselves. If you do not have someone who is already a capable web developer, we recommend hiring either bitServe or another third party for the development of your site.

Our technical support department can only provide assistance regarding the operational status of your web space and email. We can also answer questions regarding the functionality of the web and email servers. However, we generally will be unable to assist you with the publishing of your web site, the configuration of ftp or email clients, or the back end programming of your site, unless it is done under contract.

---

Of course it gets worse. We have customers that hire "web designers" (Dreamweaver operator is the more proper term) and then the clueless "web designer" asks us for help publishing the web site.

Anyway, FrontPage Webs are not terrible things to offer to your customers. It does help these customers to be able to publish their web site. We haven't had any problems with the extensions.

Aloha
some thoughts
you mock Dreamweaver yet this is a true pro aplication
yet you say Frontpage is OK ????

no offense you lost all credibility with me with those statements

as far as your quiz here goes :
1. What is an IP address? Duh a Important Person

2. What is a domain name? my Main name is Chad (shouldn't that read Yomain Name

3. What is an IP router? a person that tells you where that Important Person is

4. What is DNS? thats a trick quetion isn't it ? my guess would be Dumb Nut Sucker

5. What is a cross-over cable? the cable person that came out of the closet ??

6. How long have you been a system administrator? long enough to know these sill answers ;)


Originally posted by bitserve
I want to know how one goes about targeting the knowledgeable user. Maybe an essay test?

Of course it gets worse. We have customers that hire "web designers" (Dreamweaver operator is the more proper term) and then the clueless "web designer" asks us for help publishing the web site.

Anyway, FrontPage Webs are not terrible things to offer to your customers. It does help these customers to be able to publish their web site. We haven't had any problems with the extensions.

AOL: So easy to spam, no wonder it's #1.

Why is it that people who use aol email never reply to a message which contains the original message? I get emails like... "I still can not logon - I followed your instuructions..". Sorry, what instructions? and what problems are you having exactly? Could you please enclose the original message when you send a reply:mad:

Honu, did you even read my post? Because I'm not sure how you can interpret me saying that FrontPage is better than Dreamweaver.

Dreamweaver and FrontPage do the same thing.

Granted one is more expensive and outputs better code.

I wasn't putting down Dreamweaver. I was putting down the person who uses Dreamweaver but can't figure out how to get the output to the webserver, yet calls themself a web designer and has the nerve to charge for it.

Originally posted by Webdude
AOL. So easy to use, now wonder it's #1!

Yeah, so easy that people are not learning what they should be learning.. AOL keeps people ignorant and doesnt give them the chance to learn.. Then you have your hard core AOL users who defend it because they dont know any better...

The funny part is that its easy but when you call their tech support your online for over an hour. so who is the bad one, AOL or the customers...

Hitler once had "The Final Solution". Well, here is mine: :D


(Boldy displayed on your website)
"We make no gaurantees of any kind regarding support, and we reserve the right to ignore any support request at our discretion, for any reason."

What do you all think of that? :eek:

I guess you could add a blurb about the quality of the service, and the reasons why you don't want to do much for support.

Aloha
yes I read it ;)
but they are not the same thing ???
have you ever put together a large site ???
over say 2,000 pages ??? using notepad ???
dreamweaver actually ultradev are very good programs that do not rewrite your code at all
yes I agree there are way to many people that do not understand web stuff on both sides that should not be allowed to call tehmselves designers or webmasters or sysadmins ;)

I know that is what you are refering to but you should have said
but it kinda didnt sound that way ;)

I am just being sarcastic sorry if it gotta going ;)
I understand that but will defend ultradev as a good program as serious developers do use it ;)
FP on the other hand is well its FP ;(



Originally posted by bitserve
Honu, did you even read my post? Because I'm not sure how you can interpret me saying that FrontPage is better than Dreamweaver.

Dreamweaver and FrontPage do the same thing.

Granted one is more expensive and outputs better code.

I wasn't putting down Dreamweaver. I was putting down the person who uses Dreamweaver but can't figure out how to get the output to the webserver, yet calls themself a web designer and has the nerve to charge for it.

I have to agree about Dreamweaver.

I think all the software made by Macromedia is very high quality. It doesn't take shortcuts and throw a bunch of junk into your pages. It is very powerful, and it really allows you to do a lot more. You can still hand code most of the pages with ease, and without the hassles you would have with, say, FP *uughhughhughh... FP....*

I myself use Dreanweaver, Flash, Fireworks and I think they are great. I started learnign web design with notepad too. I don't use dreamweaver as a shortcut, I use it as a powerful tool that enhances the sites I make.

I'm just a notepad writer myself, but I just bought all the nifty Macromedia stuff, like Dreamweaver and Flash, etc. Just started learning.

Seems like I'm going to be able to do lots of stuff in Dreamweaver that I can't do in notepad. Therefore, it is a legitimate and powerful tool.

FrontPage, what little I've seen of it, actually prevents you from being able to do what you could do in notepad. Using it is imprecise, and things come out looking lousy.

I'm not the technical person at my web hosting co., but David is always getting complaints about FrontPage extensions. They are so fragile, and the extensions get messed up all the time.

So I can't see how someone can equate Dreamweaver and FrontPage.

Well all these Notepad coders are just ignoramuses who don't realise what it really takes...

When I want to create code I go up into the mountains to purify my mind and body. Three days of the Tyrolean thighslapping dance normally do it for me. I then search for the rare Austrian HTML pine and climb to the uppermost branch to pluck the most tender shoot. I take the sharp end of the shoot, pierce my left nostril and, as the blood starts to fall, I mutter the holy incantation "Tim Berners-Lee" three times before reverently drawing the sacred signs <ht... on the stomach of a virgin marmot.

How do I upload? By TM, of course!

Steve, stop jodeling, please.
:stickout

Originally posted by steve

Well all these Notepad coders are just ignoramuses who don't realise what it really takes...

When I want to create code I go up into the mountains to purify my mind and body. Three days of the Tyrolean thighslapping dance normally do it for me. I then search for the rare Austrian HTML pine and climb to the uppermost branch to pluck the most tender shoot. I take the sharp end of the shoot, pierce my left nostril and, as the blood starts to fall, I mutter the holy incantation "Tim Berners-Lee" three times before reverently drawing the sacred signs <ht... on the stomach of a virgin marmot.

How do I upload? By TM, of course!


LMFAO!!!!

Thats funny.

I personally don't think it is very possible to make a truley good website using just notepad. I guess there might be some people out there that can... However, I think that if they were to start using some good power tools, the sites they produce would be even better.

I don't need no stinkin' notepad! I use vi.

Just kidding. I actually do use vi to update my personal web page, but then I wouldn't consider it very well done.

I'm not much of a designer, but I know how to make it go really fast. :)

Hello Abzug,

running a web hosting venture is not only about technology. Its just as much about entrpreneurship as it is about customer services as it is about technology. Because you are a system admin (like my self), or a technician does not mean you'd make it starting your own company. Some people are born entrepreneurs and some are born intrapreneurs! Either way, you may still be able to afford your German beer.

Daff
http://www.hosting24-7.com
Hosting Performance

I agree. Running any business as a matter of fact requires you to know very little about the product+technology but a lot more about business, economics and most of all sales, sales, sales... If you know a lot more about product that is much better but usually you are only good at a few things.

I am an engineer by training and a few years ago I just could not understand why all the sales people made so much money after partying their way through college. I know sales guys made 250 grand a year while we were getting 1/3 or 1/4. Now that I have been in business, I know sales is much more importanat than having a great product or technology. Given a choice between "a great product and technology + a mediocre sales team and a mediocre product + a great sales team" I will go with the second option. That does not mean the product+technology has to suck, it has to be good enough to compete in the market. So, if you are a great tech guy, don't assume that you are gonna make a good/successful businessman/woman.

Originally posted by Gurudev


Why is it that people who use aol email never reply to a message which contains the original message? I get emails like... "I still can not logon - I followed your instuructions..". Sorry, what instructions? and what problems are you having exactly? Could you please enclose the original message when you send a reply:mad:

That's sooo true! I hate that! I don't even think there is an option to set that on AOL.