Thanks again to all for past advice; You are definitely helping me get closer to my goal.

I would appreciate any any advice you could provide on registrating a trademark name for a web site. In preliminary research, I found that the prices for obtaining a trademark vary tremendously from do-it-yourself to very expensive. I want to do it right, but not throw $ away.

BACKGROUND INFORMATION
So far, I did my own preliminary search/check for existing/conflicting trademarks and bought up domain names that are almost identical to my web site name to avoid conflicting domain name battles. My site will be an internet portal - but it is very different than any other portal I have seen. I assume it would be wise to at least register the (unique part of the) site name as a trademark name. I welcome general suggestions, but here are some specific questions:

QUESTIONS:

(1) Is it true that I have to actually have the site up and running and also doing commerce(?) before I can register a trademark name - or is it possible or important to register it before I put the site up on the web so I don't lose the trade name to a copy cat, etc.?

(2) My current plan is to just register a trademark name now and not worry about creating and trademarking a logo right now (to avoid further delays in launching). Any problem with that? If, instead, I worked on creating the logo now before launching the site, can registering the logo as a trademark be combined (to save $) with registering the site name as a trademark in a trademark application even if the logo is a just a pure graphic without a name?

(3) How would you suggest I find a good quality trademark service at a reasonable price?

Thank you very much

(1) Well, in general to trademark something it has to be in use, though you don't have to be earning money from it (ecommerce). I suppose a way to get around the fact that the site isn't up yet is to either print up a flyer with the name on it, or put up a one page web site (even if it isn't complete, I'd assume that any use that relates to the end use would be considered 'in use').

(2) The name and the logo would have to be trademarked sperately anyhow, so I don't see a problem with waiting on this. I'd consult a lawyer who specializes in trademark issues about some of your exact questions, and seek out some of the resources available on the web.

Sorry, I don't have any wonderful resources off the top of my head...

Wouldn't a copyrighted site be enough to protect you from copy cats? All you'll need is to show you had the design first. Added benefit about copyrights is, you don't have to wait until you recieve a certificate stating your work is indeed copyrighted.

Just state your site is copyrighted and go from there. Then you can put the paperwork into the trademarks (which are very expensive and takes time to approve).

Be careful what name you choose. I sent off a trademark application 2 years ago and it was rejected because they said it was too much of a service description so I couldn't trademark it. I spent $350 for nothing!!!!!!

Also, it takes about a year for it to be completly set up from the time you submit your application to the USPTO. It also takes about a half a year before you find out if you can trademark your name or not.


Jeff

It's been a while since I did trademark stuff, but I do have a trademark on the names of one of the programs I wrote (HTML Builder).

From what I remember, Chicken is correct. You do not have to be making money off it it, but the mark needs to be "used on commerce" before it can be trademarked.

The actual trademark applicaiton is not that expensive. When I did it, it was about $550 (USD). It cost me about another $500 to have a good intelectual property guy look it over and write it up. This was a bargan basement price, because I knew the guy through a trade association.

IANAL. I'm not sure if a portal name would be a trademark or a service mark. A portal is a service, not a tangable good.

Just my experience.

Frank

Well I was asked about this in a private message so here goes what I know about trademarking.

the information I'm giving is based on a Stealth company and some of the things I've done to protect what I'm working on.

1) trademark - do you need activity? In most cases yes. what sort of activity... I would advise a simple web page saying "coming soon" that's it.

now some things you did before you sent the application in.

a) you established a legal corp, partnership ... and had the proper paperwork to show that you are a business a business. ( but from my knowledge an individual can get a trademark on something that they have, to show that this is thiers and it's used to make money )

b) For corporations: have all legal paperwork go to a registered agent ( do you want to give you location away if you don't have to.

c) any other paper work should go to a P.O. Box along the way to your office ( why give your location away when you don't have to, and you are reducing the chance of a dumpster diver looking at your trash )


Trademark application : It's best to work with a Trademark lawyer, for the $1,000 they will charge, your headaches are reduced. Plus they know if your application will get the trademark within a reasonable amount of time.

I filed for a trademark back in september for a new firm I'm putting together. I've been waiting for a piece of paper that states (quick summary) " you are in the U.S.A. Trademark system but we can not confirm that your trademark is ok " It take about 12 to 16 weeks to get it. That document protects my "Trademark" by showing that I'm using it first, but it does not protect me from others filing counter claims against me.

It will take from 1 year to 18 months to know if I have a valid trademark.

the Logo problem is something very different. You don't need one. the trademark of a name like "Arizona hosting" will provide you with enough ( you could define your trade make to be very narrow ). You could make a logo afterwords and apply to cover that also.

How to find a good Trademark Lawyer. Easy ask your personal lawyer for a refferal or your accountant. Then do an interview. I have found that most lawyers like to be interviewed, because it shows them that they might win a loyal longterm client with tons of refferals.


I wish I could write more but I'm press for time for a while.

Originally posted by ChrisLM2001a
Wouldn't a copyrighted site be enough to protect you from copy cats? All you'll need is to show you had the design first. Added benefit about copyrights is, you don't have to wait until you recieve a certificate stating your work is indeed copyrighted.

Just state your site is copyrighted and go from there. Then you can put the paperwork into the trademarks (which are very expensive and takes time to approve).

answer to your first question, the protection is automatic when your work is created, but without a registered copyright you have no federal protection for a "monetary" claim against the offender. you just have to ask them to remove the "work" in question.

-Sqposter / Michael

If you're just offering a service, wouldn't you only be able to register a service mark? For a trade mark, don't you need to be producing something with your mark on it?

Anyway, we've registered trademarks through PTO's web site, and through nameprotect.com

The one's we did through the web site were for t-shirt designs, which are fairly simple to do. I wouldn't recommend this for most.

Originally posted by sqposter


answer to your first question, the protection is automatic when your work is created, but without a registered copyright you have no federal protection for a "monetary" claim against the offender. you just have to ask them to remove the "work" in question.

-Sqposter / Michael

That's news to all the artists out there. What we've been told is one doesn't actually need to apply for a copyright if one can prove they did the original artwork (rough drafts/line drawings/pre proof examples, etc). As long as the burden of proof is there an artist doesn't have to register.

If an artist had to copyright every single image they created they would be bogged down with paper work. It's simply impossible to actually register each image.

Trademarking is another beast in itself. It's expensive, time consuming and one best get an attorney to handle it. Small businesses wouldn't have much need in it; larger firms would (especially to protect their intellectual property).

If someone has the cash to do it, go for it. :)

Thanks everybody for all the good comments and suggestions.

Somewhere along the way in this thread we seem to have gotten trademarks and copyrights tangled up with each other and caused some confusion.

In case you didn't start reading at the top of the thread, my question was about trademarks. I will be copyrighting my site content (even thought I have been told by an attorney that it won't help much in my specific case), but there are separate and different reasons to register a trademark name.

RE: COPY CATS
Regarding an earlier comment/question in this thread, I am quite sure that a copyright alone will not do much if anything to stop someone from using a potential trademark name that you use on your site and is not likely to prevent someone from taking your innovative concept and using it in a slightly different way or with a slightly different appearance. **Its not the content of the site that will be the trademark; I am interested in registering a trademark NAME.**

WARNING - LONG POST
Sorry, this post is getting long, so if your eyes are tired, you may want to punt and try back tomorrow.

WHAT I THINK I KNOW
I am no expert and that is why I posted these questions, however, since I see many people have been viewing this thread and there has been confusion, I will state a few things I am pretty sure of that may be of interest. All you experts and semi-experts, please tell me what I got wrong so we will all be more knowledgeable. Thanks!

COPYRIGHT (AUTOMATIC)
At least under USA law the following should hold:

When you publish a book, web site, etc., the content is automatically copyrighted (new law as of several years ago). It is good form and a good idea to also state at the end of your publication:

Copyright 2001 "name of copyright holder". All Rights reserved.

For example:

Copyright 2001 XYZ Trucking Inc. All rights reserved.

You can also use the copyright symbol (the letter C in a circle: ©) instead of or in addition to the word "copyright".

ADVANTAGE OF REGISTERING A COPYRIGHT
As an earlier poster indicated, you may also register a copyright with the US government copyright office. There are significant advantages to doing that. For example, registration preserves statutory damages and the right to obtain attorneys' fees if you prevail in a copyright infringement action. It is also required prior to suing in any federal court and provides some evidence of presumed ownership.

TRADEMARKS
You can actually trademark a name (or at least attempt it) by, e.g., publishing the name on the internet with the trademark symbol (TM: ™) after the name indicating that you are claiming it as your trademark (please correct me readers if I am wrong. [We are still discussing here if you need to actually do anything with it beyond display it on your site or if you must actually be working toward making money.] However, one big problem is that if someone else is using it as a trademark, especially if they are a powerful company or have already REGISTERED the trademark, then you can be in big trouble.

I believe Trademarks are much, much more complicated than copyrights because anyone in your local area or even anywhere in the world (on the net) might pop up out of the woods saying they have the rights to the trademark NAME, a trademark LOGO, a SERVICE name, etc. that you thought was yours. So you need to really check it out to be sure nobody else is already using the trademark.

REGISTERED TRADEMARKS
After you are sure nobody else is using your intended trademark (by paying an attorney lots of $$$ to verify it or try to do it yourself and keep your fingers crossed), then you want to lock in the trademark for yourself by paying an attorney a lot more $$$ to register it for you (or try it yourself and hope you don't blow it and waste your big registration fee). When you receive your official approval for a registered trademark, then you use the registered trademark symbol (an R inside a circle: ® ) instead of the TM symbol.

RE: SERVICE MARKS
Every time I mention the word "portal", I regret it because everyone else apparently immediately thinks of only the prototypical web portal and here again have assumed I am making a portal of services that mimic Yahoo: I am not. As far as I can tell, the name I will use as a trademark does not imply any kind of service either. At least in its first release, this DIFFERENT KIND OF WEB PORTAL will not be a portal of services (by my interpretation) so I won't be attempting to register a SERVICE MARK. I will simply be trying to register a trademark name.

MY GOAL HERE
I already received some good advice above. However, I am still trying to figure out how wise or unwise it would be to just go with putting a TM after my chosen trademark name as I put my site online, using it on the new, different kind of web portal, and wait and see if I can make a little $ first before paying big $$$ to register a trademark name. Maybe sqposter or one of you have alrady discussed this with their attorney. It was intersting that one of the posters felt the $1050 spent for the trademark was not too expensive (Thanks for the post ffeingol - I hope that means $$$ are pouring in for you and you're enjoying every minute of it) but another poster is in my boat and felt it is a really big expense (welcome to the poor boy's club/boat).

Would you recommend that I post something on this topic under the "Related Offers and Requests" sub-forum to hear bids, etc., from Trademark attorney/consultants or just search the net for attorneys offering services?

BITSERVE, sorry I couldn't understand you, what did you mean by "I wouldn't recommend this for most." Who is PTO? Website URL?

Sorry for the long post.

Thanks again for all of the great assistance from all of you. Chicken, you have helped many times.

Thanks.

Sorry, I meant that we've used the PTO (Patent and Trademark Office)'s web site to register a trademark for a t-shirt design. Because of the simplicity of registering an original t-shirt design, we didn't feel that it was necessary to pay big bucks and go through a specialist and did it ourself with good results:

http://www.uspto.gov

You can also start your trademark research there, as you can search the database.

I wouldn't recommend this for most though. If you really are trying to register a trade name for a business, I wouldn't attempt to do everything yourself.

Sorry for the mistake before about confusing copywrite's and trademarks.

In this months issue of Linux Journel ( nov 2001 ) look at the very last page. there is an entire page about trademarking that will help you. ( also a great review on open source web servers )

Michael / Sqposter

p.s. also someelse mentione the USPTO web site. that's a real good starting place.

Originally posted by bitserve
If you're just offering a service, wouldn't you only be able to register a service mark? For a trade mark, don't you need to be producing something with your mark on it?. Essentially true, but even the Patent and Trademark office generally refers to either mark simply as a "trademark." So it's not really inaccurate in this discussion to use that term.

Regarding whether you have to actually be using the mark, you can in fact submit a trademark application before you have used it, by filing an "Intent to Use" application. If you do that, you'll have to later file a statement that you have used it, an "Allegation of Use," before the USPTO will actually register the mark and finalize the process.