I am so happy today because I changed hosts!
I left bloody ***** for VenturesOnline.
I haven't had much experience with hosts but ***** was really bad.

To start from the end...
They have a page that you go to when you want to cancel your account.
I went there yesterday. They ask you your details together with your Username and
password for your account.Then I pressed CANCEL. But the cgi's responce was:
"You password can only contain letter, numbers and !@#$%^&*()"
But my password contained a dot...
Then I created a ticket and the responce I got was to go to the exact page I was.
Just that.(of cource I told them in the ticket where I was)
I replied that I was actually on that page and had the problem.
Finally without getting a reply to my email and without following the proper(according to *****) way
to cancell my account. I recieved twice an email saying YOUR ACCOUNT IS CANCELLED.
And that was the end.

They had and have a really big problem with charging credit cards.
I joined the reseller package a year ago. (Thanks to cnet.com)
When I started with them they didn't charge me until 2 or 3 months after.
So I paid setup and the first 2 months at once.
Then they charged me whenever they wanted.
These are the dates on my credit card of the last few months:
19/05
29/05
14/07
30/07
29/08
29/09
Not to mention that on another account I had cancelled they continued to charge my credit card for two months. I then send them an email and they refunded the money.

Furthermore their setup fee for a reseller is too high for me at least(65$) and the montly fee also(50$).And you get only one package to resell! It's 10$ setup for VO and 16.95$/m and they have 6 packages to choose from!

If someone has something good to say about ***** please do...

LOL, ***** has one of the worst reputations of all hosting companies. Use the search button at the top and read the hate towards ***** for hours of entertainment.

***** sickens me beyond belief...

Every once and a while they'll claim, "We've REVAMPED our customer service division!" ... And the part that really gets my shorts in a knot, is that they don't even follow what they say for a few days... The "revamp", seemingly never happens!!!

I don't see why they don't just give up already. :)

"Your brain is as thick as a milkshake. But not nearly as delicious.."

Congratulations young Jedi, the force is with you - it is :)

Use the search feature to find out other customers thoughts on *****... you will find some interesting perspectives....

"But my password contained a dot... "
In my life, I don't think I have ever seen a password with period in it so I can understand your troubles. Computers see this as a break usually followed by an identifer such as exe, com, etc. That is not a problem with the host, but a problem with the Operating system. Perhaps you should take this problem up with Microsoft or Red Hat, 8-)

It's funny you mention the problems with credit card billing. When I first noticed that my card was being billed at random I called them up. ... several times. Persistance paid off and I managed to get in touch with billing and we worked out a pay schedule. Now I am charged on the 2nd of every month.

"LOL, ***** has one of the worst reputations of all hosting companies. Use the search button at the top and read the hate towards ***** for hours of entertainment."

I don't see how other people's suffering can give anybody entertainment. I have been burned by a company years ago. I had an idea of making the Internet a place for multiplayer games and I rented several servers from a Host. The Host went belly up and I was left with nothing, but frustration. Reading other people tales of woe does not make me happy, nor entertained.

"***** sickens me beyond belief...

Every once and a while they'll claim, "We've REVAMPED our customer service division!" ... And the part that really gets my shorts in a knot, is that they don't even follow what they say for a few days... The "revamp", seemingly never happens!!! "

If you are so sick of them ignore them. Its obvious you do not host with them, I do. I've had several problems with them before, but in an industry were companies rise and fall in days and new technology comes out on the market every month I have learned to be forgiving. In fact, I'm happy to say it paid off with *****. Their 24/7 phone support use to be a farce, now I get in touch with a tech in 10 minutes. Thats better than my cell phone's customer service. If you were with ***** you would know that.

*****s is still in business because they have customers. Web Hosting is a service industry and without customer support your business goes bust. Perhaps you should think on that when you wonder why ***** is still in business. Mayhaps they are in business because they have more things going for them than you might think.

To close my novel sized reply my I remind everyone with spite towards any Host, deal with it and move on, its obvious your efforts thus far haven't done a thing (***** is bigger than it used to be), but convolute the truth. The various ramblings about how this Host is bad and that Host is evil does nothing more than ruin your reputation by showing the world you have not advanced beyond adolescence.

If you truly believe a Host is that bad maybe you should try doing something more than complain and point fingers.

Originally posted by Milumbra
...*****s is still in business because they have customers. Web Hosting is a service industry and without customer support your business goes bust. Perhaps you should think on that when you wonder why ***** is still in business. Mayhaps they are in business because they have more things going for them than you might think. ...



More than likely, ***** is still in business because their business model is accommodating of, possibly even dependent upon, the constant churn of customers.

I don't understand why they would still have so many billing problems after several years!

Hmm Milumbra has 2 posts and is the only person I have ever seen defend *****, he also has no website listen in his portfolio.

Am I the only one that thinks something fishy is going on?

Well I have seen a few people (and I mean a few) come and go through this and other forums, and claim to have no problem with ***** at all. I'm sure there *are* people who find their service more than acceptable. My own feeling is that it's not that ***** are bad, but rather that there are a lot of other companies that are better. The worrying complaint I see here quite often is their odd attitude to billing. Even other monster sized hosts such as Verio, Interland etc, never seem to have that much trouble with overcharging.

They're big.. no doubt about it, but they've also been around for a fair while now. I think Chris and the rest need to look a little closer at their internal systems (support and billing). A few thousand of that ad budget of theirs thrown at infrastructure could quite possibly turn them around. just imagine what they could do if they managed to reduce their churn rate! If they could keep that sign up rate where it is now, and retain half the people they lose, they'd be a powerhouse. :)

Greg Moore

Originally posted by Milumbra
"But my password contained a dot... "
In my life, I don't think I have ever seen a password with period in it so I can understand your troubles. Computers see this as a break usually followed by an identifer such as exe, com, etc. That is not a problem with the host, but a problem with the Operating system. Perhaps you should take this problem up with Microsoft or Red Hat, 8-)


Linux supports periods in passwords. Doesn't Microsoft? I often use "dots" in passwords.

I use the dot all the time too in various websites and pcs.
The think with the dot is that I was using that password with CI for almost a year and the only time I had a problem was when I tried to end my contract. Am I suspicious?

hehe I've never used ***** Before, but from visiting this forum I have learned to never use them. Although I've got to say their website design is pretty nice. And I use a period to login to my internet service, but I'm not sure if that's a fair comparison.

I personally don't think ***** is bad...
The bad ones are the one that use them...
:D

I will have to agree with Greg on this.

I also believe that Chris Faulkner is not an idiot either. Since he must be in this for the long haul (he wouldn't have invested a million plus into a NOC if he wasn't), he probably realizes the various complaints customers have and will probably fix them sooner or later.

No company can afford to have a high churn rate or having bad press. No matter what people say. The costs of advertising and various other propaganda would be like have a chain tied around your neck while your swimming across the San Francisco Bay. And although I doubt *****'s churn rate is as bad as it was at the beginning of this year I am sure it's still higher than many companies.

However, I am also fairly certain that Chris is slowly fixing his many internally problems and it will only be a matter of time before they will be considered a good host. Time will tell on that.

Another thing I am certain of is, that whether people on this forum like it or not this forum helps a lot of people and that starting rumors and accusations against someone or some company hurts the reputation of this forum and some of the people who make those comments.

I'm sure Relyc was only trying to point a few discrepancies out about milumbra, but just because someone doesn't have that many posts on this forum or have a website in their portfolio doesn't make them less of a human being or a secret spy form some hosting company. Attacking somebody because they have few posts could make it so some people won't want to post at all when they have an opinion they think should be heard. I myself visit this forum often, but rarely have the time to post replies or messages. The conspiracy notions should probably be saved for the movies.

I do agree with milumbra on I don't see how someone can't get entertainment from somebody else's suffering or his assessment on how quickly hosts rise and fall in this industry. Look at LinuxWebHost. They were a fantastic host with an actual following of people who liked them, now people complain about their support and their uptime or lack there of.

However, I don't know what milumbra was smoking when he talked about the whole period thingy. I run a Windows 2000 server and I have a linux box at home and I have passwords with periods for both. They seem to work well for me. I would imagine the problem stems more from bad script than from anything else.

Well thats my two cents....

No company can afford to have a high churn rate or having bad press.


I have little experience of the host in question except to say that I was considering them at one time and was put off, that particular client is with another hosting company paying more than he would have at this one.

Bad press is indeed a big negative for a company..... but I have to take issue with the term "churn" .... people use it all the time ...

What exactly would the difference be between "churn" and simply "loosing customers"

Loosing customers means simply that ...... you are loosing customers.... not good.....

Churn means I guess that you are at least winning some new ones so the loss of others (which the word churn implies you are loosing) is not the immediate end.... just that the end is prolonged...

So how were you using the word "churn" ?

to denote a sutuation which is worse than "loosing customers".... because ....
1. you run out of virgin punters in the end ....
2. you churn through more before you can fix the problems..

or something else :-)

There are two elements involved in a churn rate. It is a cycle where you loose customers and hopefully gain enough customers to balance that lose.

High churn rate is when you have a customer base whose majority is being constantly turned over.... i.e. 50% or more of your customers are lost and gained over the course of a few months.

The reason why this is bad is because you will not gain money over the long run. Without guaranteed capital, as in a loyal customer base that you can expect to stay with you from month to month, you have to crank out a great deal of money on advertising in order to increase your shrinking customer base.

Also you have to spend a great deal more time on a customer who is brand new than one who has been there for a while. Speaking form my experience at working customer service, when you have a 'history' with a customer problems are solved faster.

For a Host company, a high churn rate means stagnation. The money you would put on building your infrastructure, like your customer support and network capabilities, has to go to 'damage control.'

Another problem with churn rates is that when you are loosing all of these customers, you are probably loosing them cause they do not like the service. If say you lose 40% of your customer base every three months and your customer base is say 10k that's four thousand people (I'm exaggerating to prove the point).

Now of that 4k you will have people that will be vocal about their hatred for the company, even if its only 1% that still 40 people going on forums, chats, emailing Host finders, and basically making life a living hell for the company. So the company has to spend even more on advertising to balance this.

And for the most part, when a customer is content with their host they won't be vocal about it unless that host is an extremely good host like Aletia, who I have seen a lot of good press on this forum and I know our review staff liked them a lot. Therefore the responsibility of getting out the 'good' word falls on the Host.

Someone wrote in this thread that if they spent their advertising on their support and billing they could be a good host. I agree with this statement totally, but right now with their churn rate that advertising money is keeping them a float. When they have a good month or quarter, they spend the excess on the infrastructure, but it is a slow process.

I know that Chris has a few goals he wants to attain and if he makes them happen you are going to see a lot of happy customers, but churn rates do nothing but bog down a company.

I personally applaud any company that tries to improve themselves, but I also tend to side with customers. I believe ***** will be a good company in the long run, but right now they are an average company. Nothing to get excited over, but they have been moving in the right direction, be it ever so slow.

if I keep throwing away my two cents somebody is going to get a dollar.

Jimmy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hostmag Jim
High churn rate is when you have a customer base whose majority is being constantly turned over.... i.e. 50% or more of your customers are lost and gained over the course of a few months.

Gee I would say 50% would be a disaster zone not a churn rate ... we are not talking about something without exit barriers here it involves work for clients to leave a hosting company.

"For a Host company, a high churn rate means stagnation. "

This is true for any company, hosting is no different.

Hosting is not a one time transaction but a service for a time period which if performed satifactorily should lead to almost automatic repeat purchase.
Punters are interconnected and can spread bad news, word of mouth is now international via newsgroups, email and forums.
There are entry and exit barriers for customers and suppliers. There is very imperfect market knowledge amongst customers but there remains a limited number of ignorant customers entering the market each year to feed a churn.
While there appears high levels of competition, much of it is reselling and middlemen which becomes clear to those in the market for more than a short time.
There are few globally or even continentally recognised quality standards or performance which acts against hosts as well as punters as real comparison is hard for punters and hosts have little defence against slanging off by disgruntled former customers.
Even some of the most high profile websites and hosts are not able to predict and cope with demand variation (example bbc goes text only in response to demand spike after jet crash, as did cnn after Sep 11, and many simply became unavailable).
And there are competing platforms and a changing economic climate re search engine placement and advertising revenues.

Hosting being a service over a time period rather than a simple one time transaction, any company that has a loss of 50% of customers in even as long as a couple of years I would describe as seriously failing to meet the expectations it must have created when it sold its service or significantly miscalculating their business model.

"Another problem with churn rates is that when you are loosing all of these customers, you are probably loosing them cause they do not like the service."

Or you are misleading (that is a bland term to keep) in your advertising .. i.e. you sold to them effectively enough for them to buy but on delivery failed to live up to the expectations you had created. (in english "you lied" :-)

As you say

"So the company has to spend even more on advertising to balance this. "

this is a dead end, because there are a limited number of new and uninformed punters coming onto the market each year and those that find a reliable host will likely stay with them rather than risk moving Hosting is not toothpaste where brand switching can be instant and repeated month after month.

"Someone wrote in this thread that if they spent their advertising on their support and billing they could be a good host. I agree with this statement totally, but right now with their churn rate that advertising money is keeping them a float."

I also agree, the trouble with focussing on gaining new customers is that it does not fix the reasons old customers had left, that is unless the new customers are better suited to the service that the company actually is delivering, if not they will be doomed to loose the new ones as well.

A company has to sell inteligently, I wonder if anything differentiates the % that leave from the % that stay, perhaps those that stay are competent and do not need service, thus sell to competent users and change the pitch to attract these and put of the rest ... perhaps the problem is with the company .. some failure causing loss of a %, fix that maintain retention and save the 50% of the advertising which is wasted :-) Now if only we knew which 50% that was ....

"churn rates do nothing but bog down a company."

Wow this is where I came in.... Churn rates are a confusion of the issue.... a buzz word that hides the critical aspect...

"Churn rates" are when:

1. A company is loosing customers which it had at one time won and who are now buying the product from someone else.

2. The fact that company is still winning new customers .. perhaps advertising .. perhaps uniformed buyers.... perhaps just an expanding market.... is irellevent, companies who are not loosing customers could be winning the same number of new customers...

imho the significant thing in "churn" remains that a company is loosing customers, who should have remained a source of income, referrals and positive word of mouth but who will now become negative forces against the company and increased revenue for competitors. Substute "loosing customers" for "churn" in your first post and I would have agreed and not bothererd to rise to it :-) (no offence intended)

I follow your logic and I took no offense to it.
I merely used the term 'churn' because it was used in a previous post in this string and I wished to clarify that message.
As stated in the previous message I was exaggerating for the effect. I doubt any company could servive with a churn rate that high, but I was using it to show how churn i.e. losing customers works.

I understand your comment on false advertising and true, that also factors in. However, web hosting is a service industry with a shifting customer base.

Unlike products that run out such as toothpaste, soap, mountain dew, etc. you do stay with a host longer than a month (or I should hope so), but web hosting is a constantly expanding market. And as such, there will always be customers to 'win' over to your side be them brand new to the market or searching for something better.

"2. The fact that company is still winning new customers .. perhaps advertising .. perhaps uniformed buyers.... perhaps just an expanding market.... is irellevent, companies who are not loosing customers could be winning the same number of new customers... "

It is very rellivant actually. If the host wasn't gaining new customers that roughly equal what they are loosing they wouldn't last very long would they? Yes, all things being equally in this global market, the hosts that don't loose customers should be gaining the surplus left by other hosts. Too bad it doesn't work that way. These hosts could be winning the customers, but in my mind maybe its a good thing they are not. I have seen a lot of good host companies take on more customers than they can handle and loose their competitive edge.

And as far as uniformed web developers thats where places such as this forum and my magazine come in, I guess just about any host finder site really (I guess). I take my job very seriously and try to help uniformed developers become informed about the decision of choosing a host.....

besides churn is such a cool word. hehe

Jimmy

Time will tell, but then again it has already been several years of many billing issue related complaints? Such as charges after being closed, and so on. I have no personal knowledge of how the rest of their operations are however I’m sure most other hosts wouldn’t mind if they stay set on their ways.

Hosting consumers need a well known recourse with facts to help them ovoid such problems, and what to look for in a market with so many choices, and only a few good ones. Don't think CI customers should be blamed.

Originally posted by Hostmag Jim
And as far as uniformed web developers thats where places such as this forum and my magazine come in, I guess just about any host finder site really (I guess). I take my job very seriously and try to help uniformed developers become informed about the decision of choosing a host.....

Yes and well worth it.. I found it quite a job to select a suitable host recently for a client whose site is critical to them, with loads of negative and not much positive comment available, this place and I think yours also are valuable .. there seems a bit of a lack of positive referral and I am not at all sure that the prevalence of reselling packages are not the cause. It would be nice for some ISO measurements or something like that so we could get some factual information.

[B]besides churn is such a cool word. hehe[?B]

:-) yea I am plenty guilty of Jagon so should not be so judgemental - better add Churn to my glossary..
I just prefer more subtle jargon like Cognitive Dissonance :-)

I've got on good thing to say about *****: I hate them. If we can band enough people together, maybe we could start a message board with nothing but ***** posts (ihate*****.com anyone?). Anyway, congrats! They've had a history of spamming (CommuniTech.Net and their resold clients were top targets) and I'm surprised they haven't had their business license revoked.

Originally posted by ShellBounder
I've got on good thing to say about *****: I hate them. If we can band enough people together, maybe we could start a message board with nothing but ***** posts (ihate*****.com anyone?)

Funnily enough I found a site titled IhateIkea sometime ago and mentioned it on my website .. I do "hate them" out of personal experience .. within a week or so it dissapeared and guess what the domain became owned by the target company some time after that .... (lawyers dontcha just love em) I still get hits from people searching for that site even though it is now a dead link :-)

There are plenty of other interesting examples of negative campaigning fluckmsnot (misspelt on purpose) and nuclearcrimes.co.uk i think which are very negative content and if you take a look at I think georgemonbiot.com and read what he writes on the protectionism of advertising legislation you might well think we have to make the most use of the web for our consumerism ... while there is still time.

churn:
vessel in which butter is made prepare butter by agitation of cream;shake or agitate with violent motion

Babylon.com :pimp: