The USPTO approved a patent for offering subdomains from a patent application filed in late 1999 even though there we numerous companies already offering the same service. Do these idiots actually research a patent before approving an application? Here are the links:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6687746.WKU.&OS=PN/6687746&RS=PN/6687746
http://161.58.167.50/letter.jpg

This patent can also be applied to paid hosts if they offer a subdomain for customers to use prior to their domain name becoming active. I need suggestions for a good but affordable attorney experienced in this type of case.

*blinks*... sooo... they have a patent on subdomains being used for hosting???? Is that even possible? It's standard practice for some people...

I think I see a class action suit coming against the US patent office.

ml.org
********

Prior art ;)

I have recently received a letter from the General Patent Corp which represents Ideaflood. In that letter they stated that Ideaflood has patented "user-assigned subdomains" which "are created by combining the hosting domain name and user-assigned subdomain".

For our web hosting service, freehomepage.com, we have utilized this idea for years where users could sign up for a free subdomain name hosting account, ie yourname.freehomepage.com. Isnt this general knoweledge, how can it be patented? Ideaflood demands us to purchase a license...

I know that many of you hosts out there are offering the same type of subdomain hosting. Have any of your received a notice of this patent? What are your thoughts on the subject?

Thx.

Whoa that's pretty messed up man. How the heck can someone "patent" subdomains with a straight face?

Maybe find the specific RFC that covers subdomains, a good lawyer, and tell 'em to sue you.

It's getting stupid out there...

I am sure it can be challenged.

I think the patent was registered in 1996 if I am not wrong. Just about everyone had used subdomains for years by then :-)

Just reference ml.org etc

Ideaflood is a company that only deals in patents and intellectual property, they don't actually make anything. Its like Al Gore claiming he invented the internet (no offense to Mr. Gore, but I think the credit should have been shared a little).

http://www.ideaflood.com/apps.asp

Look at thier list of patent claims. It is almost amusing reading their broad terms and then looking at the filing dates.

Originally posted by vantasticman7
Ideaflood is a company that only deals in patents and intellectual property, they don't actually make anything. Its like Al Gore claiming he invented the internet (no offense to Mr. Gore, but I think the credit should have been shared a little).

Don't tell me people still believe that lie.

http://dir.salon.com/tech/col/rose/2000/10/05/gore_internet/index.html

They didn't actually patent the use of subdomains, they have a patent for the automatic creation of subdomains via a program and/or control panel. The patent application was filed in late 1999. There were numerous services offering the automatic creation of subdomains prior to the date of their patent application. IMHO the patent office screwed up when they approved the patent. You could always just pay the licensing fee and save money on lawyer fees or get a group of people that want to donate some money to have the USPTO review their patent application. I also got a letter but my system was in place since late 1998 which is almost a year before the date of their patent application.

Or tell them to f off. Patents are not valid if information about them has been released before they are patented. This also includes if its being done before the patent.

Originally posted by Philipf
Or tell them to f off. Patents are not valid if information about them has been released before they are patented. This also includes if its being done before the patent.

That's all true but any law suite, even a bogus one, is going to be expensive. The legal fees are going to kill any small hosting company unless somebody sets up a group defense fund similar to the one fighting the patent for online payments/shopping carts. http://www.youmaybenext.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by vantasticman7
Ideaflood is a company that only deals in patents and intellectual property, they don't actually make anything. Its like Al Gore claiming he invented the internet (no offense to Mr. Gore, but I think the credit should have been shared a little). [/QUOTE

He never claimed that. He stated that he supported the further research of what would become the Internet and was for it, not against it.

Its like Al Gore claiming he invented the internet (no offense to Mr. Gore, but I think the credit should have been shared a little).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rob83
He never claimed that. He stated that he supported the further research of what would become the Internet and was for it, not against it.

I realize that, I was only using it as an analogy. He did vote to make the internet public (from a defense/research only tool), although its false he claimed he invented the internet , he did exagerated his role a teensy bit.

Looking at the patent, unless you are giving the subdomain legal authority and ownership of that subdomain - the patent doesn't even cover the issue (let alone that the whole idea is valid).

This is really a piss poor patent company. To summarize the patent process of theirs without making anyone read it. An example.

The direct licensing of the use of a computer to do computing on an excel spreadsheet. Currently no one else implicitly implies it is licensing the computing of Excel, so that is our patent.

They are patenting the implicit permission versus the implied permission on numerous of their patents. Wow does the patent office suck.

chet

If their patent states that you need to buy a license because you're using a program or control panel to automatically generate sub-domains then you may be able to tell them you're doing it manually, or find out when your control panel was created and tell them that the technology you're using predates the patent license.

Offtopic, if anyone does go forward and organizes a class action suit against Ideaflood please make a post about it here.

Originally posted by mpalamar
That's all true but any law suite, even a bogus one, is going to be expensive. The legal fees are going to kill any small hosting company unless somebody sets up a group defense fund similar to the one fighting the patent for online payments/shopping carts. http://www.youmaybenext.com

Sadly, I think this is the case. You can't stop someone from making a lawsuit. At best, it's legalized extortion.

they don’t have a case... fact is that over 50% of all patents don’t stand up in court any way... If price is a factor, get your self a lawyer that doesn’t charge you a cent unless you win. No Judge that has any clue about IT would allow this to precede any further and further more would blast the company suing you and the patent office for issuing garbage patents.

Even if they have no case, it will take weeks or months of your time to prepare and divert you from your business goals until it is settled.

It's probably cheaper to pay the extortion.

Originally posted by Dixiesys
. . . It's getting stupid out there...
Yep, you have the whole SCO crap, then hosts trademarking common phrases that they never thought of, and were in use long before they came along :rolleyes: and more crap like this.

*shakes head* :cartman:

I never heard of that, nor did I ever receive such notice.

Originally posted by bradshaw
If price is a factor, get your self a lawyer that doesn’t charge you a cent unless you win.

Good luck trying to get a lawyer to take your defense for free. What is in it for the lawyer if you win? Depending on where the suite is filed, you will need money for traveling expenses, hotel accomadations, time off work, food, etc.

We are just going to pay the licensing fee and be done with it. The fees are not going to break the bank but they will significantly cut into the bottom line. It's cheaper than all the other possible expenses.

For my information, how much are they making you pay?

The sad part is that these "frivolous patent" companies (for lack of a better description) often get away with it because they bully smaller companies that aren't in a position to fight a prolonged law suit.

You won't often see them go against someone like Microsoft or another corporation with huge financial backing.

Why? Simple... because Microsoft would eat them for breakfast, chew on them for lunch and spit them out at dinner and likely have their entire patent overturned by the USPTO at the same time.

So instead, they will pick on the smaller companies that wouldn't be able to withstand a prolonged lawsuit defending themselves against such a frivolous lawsuit.

Frankly, I blame the USPTO for granting many of these "idea" patents in the first place. It did nothing more than open up the courts to insane lawsuits and abuse.

Originally posted by mpalamar
. . . We are just going to pay the licensing fee and be done with it. The fees are not going to break the bank but they will significantly cut into the bottom line. It's cheaper than all the other possible expenses.
Unfortunately that's what these pathetic scum Pirates want, as legal battles are costly. Giving in to their lamo pathetic demands, just fuels the fire. I'm not knocking you for paying. I'm just angry at this scum, picking on smaller companies and stealing other people's hard earned money. Shame be on their heads. :mad:

Pull anything like that and I'll turn off the interweb.

what a load of rubbish :( I wouldn't give them a cent.......

doesn't that mean that (say) ******** is also infringing on this stupid patent?

EDIT: Why is CJB . NET blanked out? What did they do wrong on this forum :confused:

SECOND EDIT: I hope posting a banned phrase with spaces in it doesn't break forum rules.....if so please remove my reference.

We are just going to pay the licensing fee and be done with it. The fees are not going to break the bank but they will significantly cut into the bottom line. It's cheaper than all the other possible expenses.

Dont do this!

You are just enabling them.

Please contact the EFF:

www.eff.org

Send them the details of your case, they may be able to help you out. They have helped other small business owners fight against these types of claims in the past. An EFF donation would certainly be cheaper.

Thanks for all the replies.


Our subdomain hosting is actually done by www.communityarchitect.com which is a part of About Web Services (the big guys). Let them deal with this :)

I am not sure how much their licensing is, but we feel that it is highly unfair to come up with any fee for something that has been used on the Internet for years...

So, have any of you got similar letters?

We really should look into starting a similar fund to go against IdeaFlood, anyone know a lawyer that would be willing to help us and anyone more familiar with this topic want to put a site together, etc.? I'd gladly give a decent amount of money to such a fund.

I'm assuming the patent in question is this:

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=10&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=Shuster.IN.&s2=Brian.IN.&OS=IN/Shuster+AND+IN/Brian&RS=IN/Shuster+AND+IN/Brian

Well it was filed on January 31, 2001. To my knowledge, many many free hosting companies were offering subdomain accounts prior to that date, so winning this suit should be pretty easy no?

I say take them on and don't give in to this BS.

mpalamar you write....... free. What is in it for the lawyer if you win? Depending on where the suite is filed, you will need money for traveling expenses, hotel accomadations, time off work, food, etc.

i say to that, do nothing, let them sue you, then hire your self a lawyer to defend you for free, and then when the case gets won by you, they will have to pay your legal fees,, ie your lawyer wins, and also damages for you if you have lost any like those you mentioned above. i would no way give into this company, sounds doggy to me. Get your self a lawyer, and some advice, and thell the company to send any further correspondence though your lawyer.

Everyone keeps saying that this technology has existed long before 1999, which is true, but if you go in a court and say "It's been in use since the early 90's, really it's true" you're going to lose your battle.

One thing you NEED is physical evidence that this technology was in use before 1999, something like Cpanel documentation claiming copyrights before 1999.

I've actually contacted cpanel, ensim and plesk asking if they could release any information to help disprove this patent, so far none of them are standing behind their customer base. Well over a week and no replies from any of the companies.

So it leave the question, how else can you prove that this technology was in use before the patent?

Just got a letter from them aswell.. any ideas on what to do?

I just got a letter from them aswell.. any ideas on what to do?

What did this letter actually address? What part of your setup offends their patent?

The letter was pretty standard - same as the one discussed in this thread (asking me to liscence the patent).

My free hosting service (t35.com) offers you.t35.com in an automated way... I have been offering it since March of 99 (before the patent) but i don't have anyway to prove that other than the domain registration date.

The problem is that there is no way to afford there fees. My service is also a little bit different than the patent describes, and was offered before the patent was filled (but i have no proof of that!).

Looks like their website is down.

Looks like they have their own cogent line for their server. Maybe they got DDOS'ed?

Too bad Cogent doesn't offer automated sub-domains, cause then you tell Cogent that a company they host will sue them for their own technology, and, look at that, Cogent pulls the plug. :)
(Would've been more fun if they were hosted with a company that offered this service).

Back on topic, ignore the emails, you do not have to respond to them, and then wait for a court order to appear in court, get a lawyer meanwhile to review the case, and do not back down. Emails are not worth anything, wait for a registered letter from court. And from what I've seen, the odds are quite low they'll take it this far. As far as evidence, use archive.org for screenshots, document domain registration dates, pull emails and file dates from your own server, etc.... Get a notary to witness all this and have them sign a document stating the above dates and info are true. Goes a long way to defeat idiots such as this.

- John C.

Yeh.. i don't see what they would get in going after me.. as opposed to the big corporations that do this... I sent them an email when i get the certified mail contesting the similarities between my service and their patent.. but no reply's yet.

Originally posted by amelen
Yeh.. i don't see what they would get in going after me.. as opposed to the big corporations that do this... I sent them an email when i get the certified mail contesting the similarities between my service and their patent.. but no reply's yet.

An email? They sent you an email? Folks do not reply to legal threats via email, wait until they get serious enough to send it via certified mail in a bona fide cease & desist, then you worry about it.

Legal threats via email are a joke and I'm quite sure my spam filter would delete any I get, yours should too :D

Do any of you know whether these patents are approved in any other country than the US? I am located in Sweden, and from what I could read at our patent agency, if they have not registered the patent here also, it isn't valid here. From what I can tell, it is also not possible to issue patents on ideas in Sweden, there has to be a concrete technical solution or product. Then the tricky bit, since I lease servers in the US, do I have to worry about this, or is this solely my providors problem.

Any other international webmasters that have checked this out?

Originally posted by Dixiesys
An email? They sent you an email?

Legal threats via email are a joke and I'm quite sure my spam filter would delete any I get, yours should too :D

They did send their letters via certified mail with the post office. I think she replied to the certified letter via email.

Originally posted by Skeptical
Well it was filed on January 31, 2001. To my knowledge, many many free hosting companies were offering subdomain accounts prior to that date, so winning this suit should be pretty easy no?

I wonder where that leaves there Aug 2000 filing then. Donhost (in the UK though) had subdomains in their Control Panel in 2000.

These guys used to (~1996-7) need an email request for them to set up subdomains:

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.vservers.com

but I'm fairly sure they introduced canonical subdomain control in 1999-2000 when we used them.

Gary

Originally posted by Dixiesys

Legal threats via email are a joke and I'm quite sure my spam filter would delete any I get, yours should too :D

Many, many large companies send out first notices via email. If you don't respond, they'll send letters, but it doesn't mean the emails aren't serious.

I've been contacted by email by Timex, Microsoft, Rolex, and IBM so far. None ever actually sent a physical letter because I fixed the problem before they needed to. Rolex, however, did also send a fax as well a day or two later (even though I had already removed the offending content).

If you're in the wrong, or know you'll lose and the email is legit, sure, respond to it. But companies that use underhanded tactics to bully other small sites should be *ignored* until they submit a valid legal request via a confirmed means.

If you ignore emails, and they try to call you on it, easy to say my spam protection blocked it, or it got deleted, etc... Until the registered mail comes that you have to sign for, I say ignore it if you think you are right or would win a judgment.

Once you get this valid letter, bring it to a lawyer and have them look it over and let you know if it has merit. If it does, then you have a decision to make. If it does not, then make sure you pursue it, win, and make the *punks* pay your legal expenses and possibly reparations for dragging you into court (if it actually gets that far).

- John C.

Originally posted by amusive.com
Many, many large companies send out first notices via email. If you don't respond, they'll send letters, but it doesn't mean the emails aren't serious.

I've been contacted by email by Timex, Microsoft, Rolex, and IBM so far. None ever actually sent a physical letter because I fixed the problem before they needed to. Rolex, however, did also send a fax as well a day or two later (even though I had already removed the offending content).

If it's an obvious problem that should be addressed, of course you address it but stupid things like this you wait for the hardcopy.

Ebay's legal emailed me a couple years ago about the domain "casinobay.com" that I had just registered for a customer, I'm not certain but I half figure they have an automated mailer that emails ANY new domain registered with "bay" in it. The email was all like "must sign this over to us" "infringing on our trademark" I actually responded that I doubt the residents of Casino Bay were very impressed by their trademark since the word "bay" is quite extensively used in identifying geographic locations, often near a body of water surrounded by water on up to 3 sides. Never heard back from them about it.

I scanned the whole package they sent via certified mail and placed it online here http://161.58.167.50/letter Pages 3 and 4 are pretty much their whole patent idea in drawings that could have been done in 5 minutes.

They sent it to me via certified mail (spent $6 on it) and i replied via email.

Come on guys, we need to set up a unified front against this... We need to take this issue to them, would likely get some press and thus more people on our side. Thing is, I think this should be led by someone who is either a lawyer, or knows a lawyer who would be willing to put just a little time into this. We'd need some basic arguments against the validity of their patents, increase awareness of what they're doing and raise some funds. The overall goal would be to overturn their patents.

I am willing to stand up against guys... (although i really don't have the money for this).. but we need more people.. and as KarlZimmer said, a lawyer that can donate some time..

Even one victory can set a precedence that can help many!

This thread is particularly interesting to me. At night, I do some web design, hosting, and programming for a few clients, but by day I'm actually a patent attorney in Charlotte, NC.

I'm not prepared to give anyone on this board any legal advice regarding the matter at all, but I did want to present some factual information about the law. I find that many people are mistaken about legal issues, especially in this area.

First of all, I have not yet read this patent, but I will do so this evening.

Second, it is fairly common for patents to be granted in this area without a high level of scrutiny from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, because they are outside the PTO's traditional areas of concentrated expertise (mechanical, biological, and chemical inventions).

Third, a U.S. patent is valid only the U.S., but there may be corresponding applications or patents pending in other countries.

Fourth, unlike many countries in which the loser of a lawsuit pays the winner's legal expenses, in the U.S., and in patent cases specifically, the loser pays the winner's legal expenses only in "exceptional cases."

Because the prospective defendants are all commercial enterprises, cases like this fall outside my firm's guidelines for approval of pro bono work, and I suspect that most other firms would have similar guidelines. Of course, the nature of the claim might merit a reduction in fees, particularly if a legal defense fund is paying the bills. There are certain aspects of group legal defense funds that make them difficult to administer. However, that may prove to be the only way to defend against suits of this nature, and if enough parties are interested, it might be of great benefit to discuss what those parties would be willing to contribute.

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT legal advice, nor is it a solicitation to provide legal services. No attorney-client relationship has been created. You should not rely on statements on a website to determine what to do in this case. Anyone who has received a demand letter of this nature, and anyone who believes that they may be a target of this plaintiff in the future, should contact a competent attorney in his or her area to discuss the matter more fully. If you need assistance in locating an attorney, please contact your state Bar Association.

Best regards,
Jim Harrington
jim (at) zubuz (dot) net

first thing i've heard of this and thought it would have been mentioned here as the article says "the hosting industry" which is you guys right:

thewhir.com/features/subdomain.cfm


March 26, 2004 -- (WEB HOST INDUSTRY REVIEW) -- In astonished postings to Web hosting discussion forums last week, several hosting providers announced that they had received letters from a party representing Stateline, Nevada-based Ideaflood Inc. (ideaflood.com). The letter stated that Ideaflood has patented the idea of assigning users subdomains, such as AutomotiveWidgets.hostingcompany.com.

Apparently the patent only affects AUTOMATED subdomain creation... i.e. if you create a subdomain manually through a control panel you are not affected.

Although it's still amazing that these types of patents get granted!

brings to mind the hyperlink case that BT tried to pursue!

so those affected would be say free hosts who automatically create accounts with a sub-domain, for example?

Originally posted by sgeler

For our web hosting service, freehomepage.com, we have utilized this idea for years where users could sign up for a free subdomain name hosting account, ie yourname.freehomepage.com. Isnt this general knoweledge, how can it be patented? Ideaflood demands us to purchase a license...
My isp demon.co.uk were doing that in 1993. I was brains.demon.co.uk with unique IP 158.152.47.85. I was around their 9,000th customer in 1993 - they went on till over half a million under the same system. My subdomain disappeared 5 years ago.

Oh and in the usenet archive you should find millions of demon postings of the form address@username.demon.co.uk from 1992 onwards.

I wonder how this could not qualify as prior art?

this might be a good money maker for Ideaflood, though it would be very difficult to police.

How would they get license money from every company using subdomains.

It's plain stupid

I agree, it's a stupid patent. I hope nobody pays.

I think everyone who can should just DOS attack them for taking the piss out of every hosting company on the net.

That's a good solution.

It's like patenting the human big toe. Anyone that has one has to pay a license fee if they want to keep it :)

Just plain stupid.

Originally posted by amusive.com
That's a good solution.

Good solution to make your user description read "Account Disabled" haha

That was implied, Dixiesys ;)

We need a law that gives the right to receive 100 times dmgs and expensive for defending ourselves against stupid and harassing type lawsuits. Patent sub-domains gawd how brainless! Heck there is an old story passed down in my family that 50 gawdXillion generations back that my cavebo brother-in-law on my 3rd step-fathers side had a patent for using Capitol letters at the beginning of a sentence. Geesh I look at every magazine and book now and think man I would never have to work another day in my life if only cavebo brother-in-law had had a good attorney back then. Damn what's next I am going to have to pay royalties for breathing thru my left nostril if I am standing on 2 legs with no shoes on lmao. BTW I am the 1st to part hair on the left side of the head and I am currently seeking a patent so maybe you should consider carefully where to part your hair next time! Seriously there is a distinct advantage to hair parting on the left versus the right and I will fully demonstrate this in a court of law… I just hope the judge is kin to the patent office people that approved that silly patent for Ideaflood. Typical American greed at it’s BEST! Anyone know of a planet that is for rent(cheap rent please) this place is knee high in stupidity!