PayPal Asked Me To Fax My Documentation Through Which I Did. Hours later I recieved this:

Unfortunately, your account access limitation cannot be lifted at this time.

A review of your account indicates that you are in violation of our User
Agreement.

"...our Service is not available to minors (under 18), persons who are
suspended from our Service, or to persons who present an unacceptable level
of credit risk."

Please reply to this email by logging into your PayPal account and filling
out the restricted account web form in order to facilitate the disbursement
of any funds remaining in your PayPal account. Disbursement can be handled
in one of two ways:

1. Your remaining account balance can be used to refund the buyers, or,
2. Your remaining account balance will be held within your PayPal account
for 180 days in order to minimize chargeback risks. Once the 180-day period
is completed, a check will be sent to your home address.


There was over $2000 in the acccount and over 145 recurring subscriptions which they have cancelled straight off. Did anyone else know about this? I had a nasty shock when I opened up my Inbox to 90 odd emails along the lines of:

"I recieved the following email to day Why has my subscription been stopped - and was wondering if everything was ok. If you could please let me know what is going on I would appreciate it. Thanks."


I wasnt aware that you have to be over 18 in order to use PayPal and Im sure thre is many people who are under 18 and doing so. Sure I am in the wrong but does it really facilitate taking all the funds from my account and cancelling the subscriptions? I have a perfect Paypal rating with no cases having been opened against me and thousands of transactions being completed sucessfully.
I somehow doubt they will be giving me interest back after the 180 days aswell.

If you would have read their AUP you'd seen the you must be 18 rule.

I really don't understand the irresponsible wording you used in the thread title. How exactly is paypal taking you for a ride? You are in direct violation of their TOS. You never bothered to check if there is an age requirement. And now that your age comes to light, and they take appropriate action, you cry foul and try to smear their name?

Unbelievable. :rolleyes:

Vito

Originally posted by DaxDavid

There was over $2000 in the acccount

I swear the first time I read your post it said "There was over $1500 in the acccount". :rolleyes:

Yes indeed, David, it did initially say $1500. Funny how the account grew by $500 even while suspended. :rolleyes:

But regardless of the account balance, Paypal is doing nothing wrong. All they are doing is following stated procedure after discovering a member who was in direct violation of TOS.

Vito

The Accounts Main Currency Is in GBP. There was $1500 USD but some GBP which I forgot to include so I edited it.

And actually PayPal accounts can grow whilst suspended as they dont stop incoming payments just any outgoing/withdrawls. Though mine has now been terminated rather than suspended, incoming payments were still building up whilst paypal were waiting for me to fax my ID/Information. But now I cant access any previous transaction histories etc which isnt to helpful.

I dont deny that I am in the wrong here, and I should have read their User Agreement in more detail and maybe my title is a bit misleading. But perhaps they should also make it more clear when signing up that you have to be over 18? One sentence in a 50 page user agreement isnt really that easy to find. I assume that vito and WreckRman2 that you both have a paypal account? I dont belive that you have read and fully digested every page of their entire User Agreement, and I dont suppose many here have done so.

From other posts Ive read on WBHT many users seem not to like the idea of kids running hosting businesses, I make my livelihood from doing this and it was all setup after I left school at the age of 16 with no help from my parents who didnt even know about the venture. Most people here seem to think that "kids" under 18 wont provide fast, mature, reliable support, but Im pretty sure I provide a better service than other one man operations dealing in hosting part-time in addition to their career.

Ive been taking payments since February last year through paypal and dont see why my age should infact make any difference whatsoever, being under 18 means infact that I cant apply for credit so this is going to be less risky for paypal than if I had a huge overdraft limit.

Ive also had problems when applying for a busines bank account in the UK, even after showing the bank 12 months of accounts aswell as business audits, a sound business plan and not wanting an overdraft, banks are restricted by UK Law.

Its now going to be virtually impossible for me to take payments online, except via Bank Transfer + Cheques, which will be a nightmare for re-curring billing.

Originally posted by DaxDavid
...being under 18 means infact that I cant apply for credit so this is going to be less risky for paypal than if I had a huge overdraft limit. That is all the more reason that they would want to cancel your account. When there is a credit card attached to the account, if there is a chargeback and funds are not available in the account, they have a recourse. No credit card, no recourse except to wait for more funds to (hopefully) come in.

While I agree that they could have more prominent prescence of a statement of age requirement, the onus is still on you to read their TOS. As well, IMO it just makes sense that there would logically be an age requirement to be able to send/receive funds in a business environment. Again though, I do agree that it should be more front and center in their signup process.

I'm not really sure what your solution is at this point. Is there any way to get someone over 18 to assist by taking over the payment processing part of your business until you are 18?

Vito

Now you know that the TOS is not just something to skip over.
Always read it, no matter what.

Can anyone explain why they are keeping the funds for the 180 days though? That still puzzles me, Im guessing its because if my customer decides hes not getting what hes paid for and wants a refund paypal have my money to do it. Or is it because they just want to keep the interest? Around $1000 was sent from one customer who I have told about the situation I am in, and he has offered to file a case with paypal saying he hasnt recieved his service and will get a refund from paypal and then pay me in cash, is this a wise decision? How do you think this will affect the other funds in the account? Im also slightly annoyed at that paypal wont actually tell me the balance of whats in the account and there is no way I can check to see what it is.

I cant use anyones details for taking payments mainly because I wouldnt be able to login to the account to checkup on payments as that would be breaking PayPals User Agreement and I dont think its a wise idea for me to employ someone to handle my banking and billing without me having access to the account and it would also be a tax nightmare.

Looks like you have quite a problem on your hands. I certainly would not recommend that your customer file for a refund with Paypal for the $1000 on the basis that he never received product. While that may be a short term solution, it does not do you any favors, as it suggests a lack of accountability on your part as a merchant.

And yes, they undoubtedly keep the funds in the event of possible chargebacks.

No easy answer to this one.

Vito

I dont deny that I am in the wrong here, and I should have read their User Agreement in more detail and maybe my title is a bit misleading. But perhaps they should also make it more clear when signing up that you have to be over 18? One sentence in a 50 page user agreement isnt really that easy to find. I assume that vito and WreckRman2 that you both have a paypal account? I dont belive that you have read and fully digested every page of their entire User Agreement, and I dont suppose many here have done so.

Yes, I read TOS/AUP. I feel bad for you but what can you do?

This is why the backlash about kids running businesses exists.

You ought to know anyway that you cannot sign a legal contract until > 18 yrs. That isnt a dumb law, its to protect the rest of us from presumably irresponsible children.

Best of luck. See if you can find an adult to "partner" up with, but be aware that if they decide to screw you they could essentially walk away with your business (because you cannot sign contracts).

It doesn't make sense why they don't let people younger than 18 years old use an account. There are plenty of young, mature, and prospering young people out there who need a place to put their business. Just seems a little unfair...

Another thing that came to mind is how did they find out your age? There's no option in the profile to set one. So that led me to think something else... it seems like they target accounts with a lot of money in them so that they can cancel the account and find some way to keep the money. I would really hate to think that something like that is true, as I use paypal and haven't had a problem yet, but it's always a possibility.

But could someone explain the age deal with me?

What is unfair about not allowing minors to conduct business transactions, you ask?

As innova stated, "You ought to know anyway that you cannot sign a legal contract until > 18 yrs. That isnt a dumb law, its to protect the rest of us from presumably irresponsible children."

What's so difficult to understand?

Originally posted by NFX
So that led me to think something else... it seems like they target accounts with a lot of money in them so that they can cancel the account and find some way to keep the money. What a patently absurd conclusion. Hardly worthy of a reply.

Vito

Talk to Paypal and ask them if it will be ok for your dad to take over the account with hes details etc.

No reason why they can not do this if your dad agrees

It doesn't make sense why they don't let people younger than 18 years old use an account. There are plenty of young, mature, and prospering young people out there who need a place to put their business. Just seems a little unfair...

Is it unfair that insurance rates skyrocket the younger a person is under 25? Hardly NOT unfair.

Statistics show that younger people < 25 compared to people > 25 are worse drivers and COST EVERYONE ELSE MONEY.

Not to mention - There is no such thing as a sub18 yr old Business owner. Such a person cannot sign a legal contract, so it is impossible to have a legitimate business, unless operated under someone else's shadow.

It is no different for finances. I am not dogging young people - in fact, my opinion of the matter as well as yours doesnt matter in the slightest. The statistics show the facts, and based on those facts the world is as it is today.

Argue if you will, but the actuaries can show time and time again there is SIGNIFICANT risk imposed on these companies, and they therefore choose to not deal with underage people. That isnt because they are mean or they think that all young people are irresponsible and stupid. Its because the facts show that they would lose money in the end.

It seems that every "OMG paypal gouged me" post I read has some kind of underlying TOS/AUP violation. I am inclined to think no differently of Paypal than any other organization, and the people who are being "screwed by paypal" are screwing themselves by not complying with the rules.

I am not so daft as to say that paypal NEVER makes errors. It does indeed seem the propensity to make errors increases the larger they get. Thus, the comment about paypal targeting large accounts is absurd! Do you think $1500 is a lot of money or a "large" account? I sure as hell dont, and its hardly pocket change to Paypal. I love a good conspiracy theory though :)

Originally posted by D0mainGuru
Talk to Paypal and ask them if it will be ok for your dad to take over the account with hes details etc.

No reason why they can not do this if your dad agrees
Of course theres a reason. He made the mistake of not following the TOS of paypal and because of it paypal does not have to give him anything.

Originally posted by NFX
So that led me to think something else... it seems like they target accounts with a lot of money in them so that they can cancel the account and find some way to keep the money. Actually, I do not find this statement all that absurd because I once read a few accounts in which almost exactly this occurred.

Originally posted by Sizzly
Actually, I do not find this statement all that absurd because I once read a few accounts in which almost exactly this occurred. Oh, well if you read it somewhere, then it must be true. :rolleyes:

I'll bet dollars to donuts that there's more to those anecdotal stories than the story teller is tellin'.

Vito

PayPal used to only require a bank account and not require you to be at least 18 years old (I've been a member since I was 16 back when eBay allowed anyone to sell). I linked my savings account to PayPal (which you can get under 18) and that worked fine. Luckily, when eBay bought PayPal and eBay and PayPal modified their rules, I was over 18 already. It just makes sense though. While I understand the youth part of it, and there are some under 18 who are honest and responsible, the majority are not. And there are legal issues with this as well.

Best course of action, as DomainGuru said, see if PayPal will allow a parent or other adult to take over the account. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you can do.

Regards,
Waylon

I understand why paypal may not want immature people to have accounts, but why is there a set age limit for this? Some people are not fit to have an account until they are well over 20 (Spammers, hackers etc.) but some people are capable of conducting a profitable business before their 18th birthday.

I think that paypal should allow anyone to use their services as long as they are mature enough to use it in a responsible way.

I am not sure of the laws involved so paypal may be indeed stopped by the law.

I feel sorry for you, but if it is in their TOS then you cannot complain. They stated that before you signed up so you do not really have a case.

Good Luck!

Thanks for everyone that has posted constructive comments.

Innova I think your understanding on some laws are actually fairly amiss, though Im not familiar with US law I know that some of the things you have stated are wrong within UK Law.

Originally posted by innova
You ought to know anyway that you cannot sign a legal contract until > 18 yrs. That isnt a dumb law, its to protect the rest of us from presumably irresponsible children.

It is possible to signup for a legally binding contract in the U.K at any age. I sign cheques on a daily basis for my bank account.


Originally posted by innova

Is it unfair that insurance rates skyrocket the younger a person is under 25? Hardly NOT unfair. Statistics show that younger people < 25 compared to people > 25 are worse drivers and COST EVERYONE ELSE MONEY.

May I ask what is the relevance of this to anything? Yes, its true that young drivers have more accidents than those with over 12 years driving experience but I dont see how it is in anyway related to under 18s being allowed to use paypal accounts.


Originally posted by innova
Not to mention - There is no such thing as a sub18 yr old Business owner. Such a person cannot sign a legal contract, so it is impossible to have a legitimate business, unless operated under someone else's shadow.

In the U.K, you have to be 16 to be a director on a UK Limited Company, and there is no regulations regarding a Sole Trader, you can act as one at any age.


Thanks for everyone elses comments, Ive rang up paypal and finally managed to speak to someone regarding why the funds are held for 180 days. This is infact as I thought incase a customer wants a refund then paypal have the funds to perform a chargeback. As for the idea about transferring the funds to a guardians name, it sounded a good idea and I put it forward to PayPal on the phone but they werent able to do it for me.

Also, if you posses a Certificate of Incorporation (which companies house issue you when you succesfully register a company) you can usually open a business bank account with any bank, thus enabling you to have access to credit card machines and merchant services.

Of course the bank may or may not ask to see Identification from yourself to check your age.

Its just my 2 pennies :)

I understand why paypal may not want immature people to have accounts, but why is there a set age limit for this? Some people are not fit to have an account until they are well over 20 (Spammers, hackers etc.) but some people are capable of conducting a profitable business before their 18th birthday.

You didnt read my post did you :)

They dont do this to be mean, or because they think anyone under 18 isnt responsible. Their actuaries tell them to, because it saves them money to not deal with underage people.

DaxDavid,

I apologize for not knowing UK law at all. I was trying to answer the post in the context of paypal which is a US-based company. I think that is the source of the trouble.

[QUOTE]May I ask what is the relevance of this to anything? Yes, its true that young drivers have more accidents than those with over 12 years driving experience but I dont see how it is in anyway related to under 18s being allowed to use paypal accounts.
[QUOTE]

Its perfectly relevant. The REASON they do not allow people under 18 to have accounts is that it is statistically proven to be riskier. Its a decision based solely on financial risk versus reward. The same is true for insurances rates on drivers based on age.

Looks like you are guilty of not reading posts to innova, if you had read my posts you would have seen I am talking about UK Business.

Originally posted by innova
I apologize for not knowing UK law at all. I was trying to answer the post in the context of paypal which is a US-based company. I think that is the source of the trouble.


PayPal also have a seperate Europe Division Now.

I still dont see that their is going to be link between a person driving ability and their credit rating but Ill agree to disagree on that one with you.

Originally posted by DaxDavid
Looks like you are guilty of not reading posts to innova, if you had read my posts you would have seen I am talking about UK Business.



PayPal also have a seperate Europe Division Now.

Yes but this does not matter as the under 18 rule is in the paypal europe tos as well.

Yes but Im talking about the fact that he says you cant open a business under the age of 18.

This thread is not about if you can open a business under the age of 18. Most places in Canada allow this as well. This about paypal's terms of service and the fact that you did not follow them. I'm wondering why you are finding that so hard to believe.
I think this thread should be closed now. There is no point to it going any longer as.
1) Why would paypal allow you back access
2) Quit complaining. It was your fault, not paypal's.

Sorry for being so harsh but those are the facts.

Originally posted by vito
What is unfair about not allowing minors to conduct business transactions, you ask?

As innova stated, "You ought to know anyway that you cannot sign a legal contract until > 18 yrs. That isnt a dumb law, its to protect the rest of us from presumably irresponsible children."

What's so difficult to understand?

What a patently absurd conclusion. Hardly worthy of a reply.

Vito


Whoa whoa whoa, community leader or not that shouldn't give you a reason to post something like that. You sorta took out the next sentence of my quote that said "I would really hate to think that something like that is true, as I use paypal and haven't had a problem yet, but it's always a possibility." I was pointing out a possibility, nothing wrong with that.

And about the age, it just seems like they're looking at the stereotypical maturity of that age group and taking rash conclusions, so I asked why.

Seriously, what's the problem? That's gotta be one of the most inconsiderate replies I've ever heard from a moderator here.

I agree that community guides shouldn't have more rights than others, but everyone should post their own opinions (what is the point of forums?), so I don't fault vito.

Well he basically abused my right to post my opinion. I said it was unfair and asked if someone could explain it, I didn't ask anyone to bash me for it.

Give me a break, NFX. You must be kidding.

First of all, I am not a Mod. I am a Community Guide. No Mod status or powers here.

Secondly, if you're going to quote me, do it properly and show the actual statement that I called absurd. That is to say,
Originally posted by NFX
So that led me to think something else... it seems like they target accounts with a lot of money in them so that they can cancel the account and find some way to keep the money.
And you think that your qualifier statement afterwards makes this one OK?

That's like someone saying :

"So that led me to think something else...It seems like Mr. Smith, our Math teacher, targets young pretty girls for 'extra-curricular activities' in exchange for a passing grade. Umm, but I would really hate to think that something like that is true, as I am in his class and haven't had a problem yet, but it's always a possibility."

You simply cannot make incendiary and suggestive statements like that, and then think you can diffuse or justify it with a mere qualifier afterwards. Get my point?
Originally posted by NFX
Well he basically abused my right to post my opinion.
You'll have to explain this one to me, Nick. How exactly did I abuse your right to post your opinion? Did I censor your post? Did I delete your post? Did I ban you? ....Oh, right,...I'm not a Mod. I don't have the power to do those things. What I did do is call your inflammatory statement absurd and unworthy of a reply. That's my opinion. To which I'm entitled, as you are yours. Great system, ain't it. ;)
Originally posted by NFX
I said it was unfair and asked if someone could explain it,
Please, what you said was a whole lot more than that. See above. :rolleyes:

Vito

The main portion of my first post asked about the age, and I asked at the end of my post again if someone could explain and that's all I wanted to know about.

And what you're trying to say is that I can't point out any possiblities anymore, ok, I'll stop doing that. But I never said any part of it was true.

I said you abused my right to post MY opinion because after I did, you completely bashed me about it. You couldn't respect MY right to have opinions.

Just saying what I feel here, and meant no offense to anyone. Sorry.

Your Status Is A "Guide", Your Not Doing Much Guiding By Giving Wrong Information, like quoting and agreeing with someone who said you cant sign contracts when you are under 18. Im not saying that you should have a knowledge in every area of business but if your going to post then as a guide you should make sure you know what you are talking about.

If I make a point that is proven to be incorrect, then I'll concede to it. But to suggest that because I'm a Guide, all my posts should have nothing less than 100% razor sharp accuracy is silly.

Vito

This thread is getting downright amusing.

I said you abused my right to post MY opinion because after I did, you completely bashed me about it. You couldn't respect MY right to have opinions.

He didnt abuse anything. He posted his opinion of your opinion, either stop whining or keep posting... His community guide status has NOTHING whatsoever to do with that.

you cant sign contracts when you are under 18.

I already explained this from my American context. Whoops! Lets not beat it to death.

I still dont see that their is going to be link between a person driving ability and their credit rating but Ill agree to
disagree on that one with you.

Oh god let me try once more. Apparantly you have no capacity to understand examples.

I AM NOT EQUATING driving ability and credit rating. REPEAT: I AM NOT. Typically, when someone tries to explain something using an example, they have to rely on a similar framework in an alternate situation. Most people can grasp the COMPARISON, and not conclude I am calling them EQUAL.

WHat you need to understand is this: The REASON young people pay high auto insurance is the same REASON they are prohibited from using Paypal accounts < 18 yrs old.

THEY REPRESENT A LARGE FINANCIAL RISK.

There really isnt anything to agree or disagree with, thats how it is. You cant get it through your head that I think that driving ability and financial responsibility are the same thing - they arent. Duh. We get that.


Your Status Is A "Guide", Your Not Doing Much Guiding By Giving Wrong Information, like quoting and agreeing with someone who said you cant sign contracts when you are under 18

THats not really what this thread is about. I am sure Vito was relating to that post in his US-based context as well. Hardly worthy of accusing him of being a poor community guide. Again, lets get back to the point of the thread.. what was it again?

.... Back To The Topic. I informed a friend about what happened with paypal to me, and being under 18 himself I recommended he contacted paypal and in his honesty tell them he had made a geniune mistake and ask for the account to be transffered to a guardian's name. Before giving any account details he told me he made sure that the paypal staff on the phone checked that the account would under no circumstances be shutdown.

Minutes later he recieves an email:

To submit your name change request:

1. Click https://www.paypal.com/uk/wf/f=ap_namechg or copy and paste
the entire link into the address bar

2. Complete the form and click 'Continue'




Next Day he wakes up to find his account has been terminated, hows that for honesty! Now I feel like I am partly to blame, if I hadnt recommended he be honest its likely his account would still be running now.

He used my telephone to make the calls to paypal as it has a built in recorder, I now have a nice message on my phone basically with a 100% gurantee from paypal that my friends account wont be suspended or terminated if he sends his details in and asks for a name change to a guardians account.

Not once did he state any opinion other than my post was irrelevant which he could have kept to himself in the first place. Seriously, I was pointing out a possibility and everyone jumped on me to defend Paypal, like I can't say anything about them. That's all, I'll stop posting in this thread because obviously no one can say what could have happened.

On a side note, have a good weekend.

Sorry david, you posted right before me.

Ok, the way I see it.. From a US point of view...

- David got investigated (either thru one of PayPal's routine checks of accounts with higher volume activity or maybe it was that $1000 payment he mentioned, whatever) and he responded with requested info which showed Paypal that he was underage by their terms, thus they acted accordingly.

- David admits to not reading the TOS/AUP. While it may not stand out, ignorance of a law/rule is NOT an excuse..reason yes, but not a defensible position. Life sucks, lesson learned. Paypal has rules for reason.

- In the the U.S. minors (under 18) cannot enter into CERTAIN types of contracts (exceptions are contracts with things like DVD clubs, record clubs, book clubs, etc..). Savings and checking accounts are also an exception I think for those 16+.

- The REASON for this restriction is TWOFOLD. 1) It protects adults from minors who have limited incomes and responsibilities from being burned...and 2) I protects MINORS from unscrupulous ADULTS who are looking to take advantage of the inexperience and ignorance of a minor.

- Paypal is within it right to protect themselves from financial lose and liability, thus the 180 day rule.

- Having your friend (also under 18) contact Paypal, while noble and commend his honesty, was a brilliant stroke of total stupidity. I just hope he removed all his funds PRIOR to doing something so blatantly dumb. This alone is a fine example of poor judgment. Why would you think Paypal would treat him any different? Just because some minimum wage helpdesk clerk said so? Hint: The person you talk to on the phone almost definitely does not call the shots...they are glorified secretaries who simply pass on the issue to someone else.

I'm not sure what to tell you. I think you will either need to find someone over 18 to partner with,or sell your clients off and wait till your 18 and start again.

Personally, I have no pity. While I do commend young people for having the initiative and semi-maturity to starting a business (many large profitable business ppl started out very young), they also need adult GUIDANCE in doing so...Even ADULTS need help from OTHER ADULTS in starting and running a biz.

We of course removed all his funds before contacting paypal but hes lost his 145 recurring billing customers, so Im helping him email everyone at the moment with new links to signup etc as like I said before I feel partly responsible.

Ive played back the phone call, the woman from paypal says she has to go and check with her superior, and comes back and says the account can be definetly transferred. IMO they deliberately wanted the account info and tricked my friend into getting it so they could lock it down. And we arent stupid, I told my friend not to give any account information and just enquire if it would be possible, he only gave his account info once paypal had said his account wouldnt be shtudown

I am now taking payments through a merchant account thanks to Netsenders good advice and have no intention of selling of my customers or partnering up with someone over the age of 18 and loosing control in the business aswell as profits.

Another bizzare thing is my friend can see his past transaction history and his balance in his account but mines just been terminated, and he was told when he reaches the age of 18 within the next month, he is likely to be able to be given access to his account then rather than in the 180 days.