Hi.

What exactly is involved with using paypal to receive payments from clients? How do you do it and how do you find peoples reactions to using this service?

Lots of people like it.
We actually get requests to receive PayPal payments; as we don't list the option on site.
When you have a paypal business account set up, you have options to create a link or an email to set up how the customer pays.
It's very easy to work with. And very reasonably priced ;)

I have an international account set up, how do I convert that to business? (I'm looking at the site just now).

Well, as I am unfamiliar with the International Account, I would suggest you first log into your account and click on the "Sell" tab and see if you have any options to set one up.
If you don't, I don't know where to send you exactly. But I'm sure that somewhere in there it is going to mention "Business Account" and give you directions on how to upgrade to it.
If you can't figure it out, they have an excellent support staff. :)

Ever have one of those days when something right in front of you might as well be invisible?

Thanks. Anone else care to comment on customer reactions to using paypal?

Yes, people really like Paypal.
On the other hand our company recently was re-organized. As a result we only accept Paypal payments from our customers located on our West Coast servers. Paypal is ok but we noticed that we have wayyyy less 'impulse buy' going no now...

Just add it as an extra option. Some of my clients really appreciate it.
works nice

I thought you could use paypal to accept payments from people who aren't even members of paypal?
Thats what it looks like on the sell screen under my business account..

thought I would get everyones feedback..
thanks,
raqworld

It may be that initially paypal is the only method of payment I may be able to provide. As far as I understand it people who are making payments to you must register as members, I think there was an idea to make it so people could pay you without joining but I dont know if this went through or not, I'll check.

I think not.
For one thing, our customers still have to register.
Also, Paypal is very wary of 'unverified' users, because there has been massive fraud using their service in the past
Also, Paypal does not want to be considered a bank, so they must go different ways ;)

Users do need to have an account to send/receive money through our service. I have reported the request for non-account creation and making payments, but the account creation helps us reduce fraud rates.

Originally posted by Raqworld
I thought you could use paypal to accept payments from people who aren't even members of paypal?
Thats what it looks like on the sell screen under my business account..


You have to be a member to use their service. For american citizens this isn't a problem. They can subscribe an use the account almost immediatly. For european users it's a bit more difficult. The creditcard has to be verified. This is done by a smal test payment from your credit card. Then you have to supply the data you'll found on the transaction details provided by your bank.
This may take some time, up to three weeks or so.
You understand this isn't really a nice thing, have to wait at least three weeks for your money.

I have used paypal as my only credit card processor for the last 8 months. I do not sell web hosting - this is for classifieds and advertising payments on my site. Here is what I have learnt.

1. 2 out of 5 do not complete the payment. When they go to paypal, paypal makes them register, they have enter some confirmation code and all that. If they make a mistake with regrads to entering their confirmation number or the shipping adress etc., they run in to problems. Most of them at that stage just leave.

2. Paypal is good for auction payments and for people who know how use the web (believe me, a lot of customers can not complete simple tasks and if they run in to problems, they leave).

3. International customers making payments from outside the US have to have a confirmed account with paypal which could take a week and upto a month (not according to me, but this what my customers told me even Canadian customers.)

4. I asked all customers who did not go through with the payment on my site to let me know on a survey why they left. Only about 10-15% left because they did not want to pay (they wanted free), the rest left because they did not want to go through paypal. Most of my customers are small businesses and they are not very comfortable using computers.

5. You use paypal as a option. If you use paypal as the only payment method you will lose a lot of customers. Again this will also depend upon who your customers are.

7. There are some good points to paypal - they have a good discount rate, they have good fraud protection, their logs and reports are excellent. I think paypal is one of the safest payment services there is but a lot of people do not know that. Those are the good points from our perspective. But from customers' perspective that does not matter, if they do not know or if they can not use it properly.

I have sent emails to their customer service in the past and have even called them. They are stubborn and do not listen. One guy on the phone was boasting to me that they have millions of registered customers. My point to him was that it does not matter because they register becuase they have to. The fact that they register does not allow them to use their account later unless they have verified their bank account and a credit card. So, my guess is that a very few of them who register actually come back again. Also, I have a few of them who tell me that they have already registered at paypal but can not access their account and paypal keeps sending them emails with regards to their passwords and that would work. Again, I don't know what some of these issues are - these are the things that I have heard from my customers.

I have lost a lot of sales with paypal. Initially it was ok with me that people left because I did not want to get a merchant account and also liked the paypal reports and fraud protection. I was not aware of other alternatives. Now that I have found alternatives, I have no reason to stay with paypal. I have just signed up with another service. I am going to make paypal as a option and going to tell them that they use paypal only if they are registered or if they know how to use it. I also accept checks by mail. You may be surprised to hear this but 5-6 out every 10 customers opt to mail me a check.

If you want to register at paypal, first you need to enter your credit card and then you need to provide them a bank account which they verify (I guess for personal accounts it is just credit card number).

So, do I recommend them? Only as an option.

You should look at worldpay, revecom, 2checkout, propay, etc.,

Thanks for all the clarification about paypal..

laterz,
raqworld

Thanks for your input on the service (we also had a very good private discussion).

Common themes I see:
1. Users not familiar with computers may be hesitant to use the service (customer education).
2. Users may not feel safer putting credit card information online (all information is encrypted, users are insured to 100,000.00 on their account for unauthorized access--they also have built-in protections from their credit card companies).
3. Users forget their passwords (this is a tough one--we have a recovery process for users, but it does require certain steps).
4. International users don't like to wait for credit card confirmation (AVS issue).
5. Some users don't want to verify (bank account), which we have in place to further identify users (users are limited to 1,000 in credit card funding until they verify to protect merchants from chargebacks related to fraud).

Some of the other issues do have to do with customer education, which every company can afford to make as easy as possible.

I have been using PayPal as a means for my clients to pay for their hosting plans. I actually use the PayPal "Subscribe" function, which lets me charge my initial set up and monthly fee and then automatically re-bill the customers for each month thereafter until they cancel.

Thank you for sharing your experience with the subscription service. Are there any modifications we can make to make it better for you?

I was asking this on another board and since it's a hot topic here, I'll inquire as well: why bother with PayPal as your method of accepting credit cards? I can see it for person-to-person but in business it makes you look remarkably unprofessional.

When I had initially started a formal online business I used PayPal, but lost two customers who didn't want to go through all the overhead. I found another option fast.

Where is the upside? I'm really interested in what you think.

Steve

Some users like to use PayPal because they can pay with:

a) balance in their PayPal accounts
b) pay with a bank account
c) pay with a credit card

PayPal offers more than just credit card processing, which can be an additional attraction for businesses using the service.

We've been using PayPal exclusively on one of our sites, but have found that we too are losing customers due to the signup process that is required. It is also difficult to use for multiple websites; PayPal does not allow you to set up more than one business account with them, and it forces merchants to come up with a "generic" name in order to use the solution on more than one site.

If they could streamline the payment process (i.e. no registration, or at the very least a less painful one) and allow for the creation of more than one account, I wouldn't think of seeking other CC processors! But as it stands, I am forced to continue testing out other options to use in the near future, and putting PayPal as an alternative payment option rather than the primary one.

Too bad, too; I really like PayPal for its features and low rates! :(

Originally posted by scslawin
Where is the upside?
If you use PayPal as your only method of accepting Credit Cards, then yes, it does make you look a little unprofessional. However if you're just starting out and can't cover the costs of a merchant account yet, then there's nothing wrong with it. It works.

Otherwise.. many customers are grateful if you offer it as an alternative to regular credit card .. sales.

We've been using paypal for the last several months and have had only one problem.

We were faced with chargeback and the support from paypal wasn't there to help us at all.

Our emails went unanswered and our account was debited. This I think was very unprofessional by paypal.

The email I received asked for tracking number and such for proof of delivery of products sold. As you all here know, we're in the service business. We sell domain names and web hosting. Well, as you might have guessed, the domain we registered for this customer was a done deal and there was no way we can recoup the cost plus we didn't get pay plus we got a $10 chargeback fee.

Paypal does not have any provision to protect us in the service only industry. The seller protection is only for goods that can be delivered.

We use paypal as an option. Our main provider is Authorizenet. The handy feature that paypal has is the subscription option. We can charge the payment into subscription right from the very first transaction which helps on billing time. The new IPN should come in handy also when we get the script working for automatically setting up accounts after paypal payment.

Yikes! Sounds like a pretty raw deal, Tom! :(

Yes it was, and we weren't happy about it when it happened.

We are thinking about mailing invoice with tracking to protect us from chargebacks.

I wonder if this is enough for paypal to cover us?

Even after that experience you are sticking with them, huh? I guess that says something about PayPal's product overall!

I am a staunch supporter of PayPal myself...I just wish they'd make it a lot easier for customers to order through them, they'd be pretty close to perfect then!

Thats a pretty good idea with the invoices.... Have you asked paypal about it?

It would cause a little more work and some money though....

Not bad for $1.00 worth of protection.

Haven't ask paypal yet.. Hope paypaldamon will respond to it.

*nudges paypaldamon* you awake yet?! :P

Originally posted by hurtdidit
Even after that experience you are sticking with them, huh? I guess that says something about PayPal's product overall!

I am a staunch supporter of PayPal myself...I just wish they'd make it a lot easier for customers to order through them, they'd be pretty close to perfect then!

Yes, easier would be wonderful.

Right now they're just an option. Most people pay us by Authorizenet.

I believe authorizenet is coming out with recurring billings soon.
That would be good too.

Who did you go through for your merchant account and Authorize.net? We were going to use them, but with our low volume, it wouldn't pay.

Originally posted by hurtdidit
Who did you go through for your merchant account and Authorize.net? We were going to use them, but with our low volume, it wouldn't pay.

I think we use these guys... http://www.online-merchant-accounts.com/ Since they have an office just a quick drive from us. When we signed up it was only $99

Looks like it's $199 now...

Great, thanks, I'm checking them out now...

Looks like they have fairly decent rates...have you had any problems with them? Are they a pretty established company?

No problem so far. Been good. Authorizenet is good.

They've been around.

They have several branches.

Here's the good thing... They have their own merchant bank.

That's why they charges good rates. They don't have to pay another bank.

Also easier if you have troubles. You don't have to deal with another bank.

I appreciate your help! I've already shot off an email to them with some other questions.

I have been frantically looking for better payment options to use on three different sites of mine, hopefully by December (in time for the holiday rush :) ). I'm keeping my fingers crossed that these guys will allow multiple sites to be run through one account, although that's probably wishful thinking. :( I was hoping to not have to pay $45/month for each account, since they're not that high of volume.

Thanks again for the tip! Do they have an affiliate program? If I do sign up with them, I'd like to let them know you were the one who referred me! :)

Don't know if they have or not. From the site, it doesn't seem they have it. But, if you want to mention us, tell them speedydomainregistratioon.com sent ya. They might toss us a bone or something.

Thanks..

Originally posted by paypaldamon
Thank you for sharing your experience with the subscription service. Are there any modifications we can make to make it better for you?

One problem I've had with it, sometimes the IPN query to my server doesn't contain all the info it should so IPN.pl rejects it as invalid and I have it enter them manually.

If a payment arrives that is unverified and "unclaimed" when I go to claim it it sends another IPN and that one has like nothing more than amount and name, no other info which that obviously gets booted out.

My suggestion is to modify it so that every IPN query contains the FULL set of name/value pairs that the IPN.pl looks for.

I've since turned off IPN because it was only working for about 1 of 5 payments.

Other than that minor quibble it's awesome and a great service.

Originally posted by paypaldamon
Users do need to have an account to send/receive money through our service. I have reported the request for non-account creation and making payments, but the account creation helps us reduce fraud rates.

Whatever it takes to lessen the fraud...

Originally posted by NewonNet
Don't know if they have or not. From the site, it doesn't seem they have it. But, if you want to mention us, tell them speedydomainregistratioon.com sent ya. They might toss us a bone or something.

Thanks.. Thanks, will do!

Chargeback protection is not offered to digitial products, as they can be viewed as "intangible". I am not stating they are not valid products, but tracking of a physical product is much easier (because you can get tracking information from a carrier on where/when the product was delivered).

I love PayPal from a business side.
From the consumer side . . . . . . . :rolleyes:
let's just say I have issues.

It's great to be protected from chargebacks as a business.
But when I am a consumer and have not been supplied working services or goods, there should be some protection for me as well. :(

We do have limited protections to buyers under the Buyer Complaint process. It does not, however, guarantee we will be able to recover from a fraudulent seller.

Originally posted by paypaldamon
Users do need to have an account to send/receive money through our service. I have reported the request for non-account creation and making payments, but the account creation helps us reduce fraud rates.

Okaaay.... well, I just got an email newsletter from Paypal saying:

"Accept website payments this Holiday season
November 15, 2001

Your business can accept instant, secure website payments from anyone with a credit card or checking account using PayPal.

Your PayPal account makes e-commerce fast, simple, and secure. You can use PayPal to sell items and collect payments directly on your website, and your buyers don't even have to be a PayPal member to pay you."


?????
Looks like to me you can sell through paypal to people who don't have an account.
laterz,
raqworld

buyers don't even have to be a PayPal member to pay you." Maybe that's their sneaky way of saying that a buyer doesn't have to have an account before they come to your webshop--they can set one up upon ordering?

I believe you are right, "don't need an account" is a sneaky way of saying "they can make a new account"

The invoice possibility is an intriguing one. I don't think, however, that it will help in a chargeback dispute (at this time). I will bring it up to our policy team.

buyers don't even have to be a PayPal member to pay you.

Yes, buyers do not have to have an account until they start filling out the forms.

Maybe that's their sneaky way of saying that a buyer doesn't have to have an account before they come to your webshop--they can set one up upon ordering?

That's exactly how it is.

Once they are at the payment screen, they are asked to create an account. That is when people leave and that is what paypal people do not seem to understand - no matter how many times you tell them. I do not know why one needs to signup for an account if they are there just to make a payment for the goods.

Also, they should be making it straight forward for "business accounts" (one would think would do it, but.....) as business accounts pay fees and generate more revenue for them. Frankly, there seems to be no difference in terms of usability between business and personal accounts. Paypal can be good in some cases (auctions and personal payments) but for businesses it can be a hassle if your users do not want to use it, and believe me you will lose a lot of sales.

Buyers do have to have an account to send a payment. The wording on the messaging wasn't as strong as it should be, which I have brought to the attention of Marketing. It was basically trying to advise that non-users can make payments if they want to create an account.

My apologies for the confusion.

Originally posted by paypaldamon
Buyers do have to have an account to send a payment. The wording on the messaging wasn't as strong as it should be, which I have brought to the attention of Marketing. It was basically trying to advise that non-users can make payments if they want to create an account. My apologies for the confusion.

Thanks all the for the clarification.. maybe Paypal should look at offering this since most businesses would probably use it.

laterz,
raqworld

How many web hosts do you think would be interested in this? I just had an actual inquiry about it.

Well, probably everyone without a merchant account.. heck, probably some WITH one too.. thats why services like 2checkout.com, revecom, etc. are very popular.. I know you'd have my vote right now.

Thats brings another point.. if services like those above can offer the service of processing credit cards and depositing those funds minus their fees into the sellers bank account, why can't paypal do that? The above services have to worry about the exact same things paypal would.. and it seems paypal would be able to offer all the latest and greatest fraud and chargeback protection too..

Go tell 'em paypaldamon!
Oh, and BTW, I never thanked you for the shirt!! Thanks!!

laterz,
raqworld

You are more than welcome for the t-shirt:)

Our account-based system actually gives us some additional ways to identify potential fraud (which is why our chargeback rates are so low).

I would need to have an idea of how severe the demand is before I could go forward with presenting it (I have reported it several times, but we would like to know the demand first).

Well, you have my 2 votes for that type of service!!

(2.. yeah.. I don't know.. 2 hands maybe? oh well..)

laterz,
raqworld

Originally posted by paypaldamon
I would need to have an idea of how severe the demand is before I could go forward with presenting it (I have reported it several times, but we would like to know the demand first).

We could see PayPal becoming a primary processing agent for us instead of a secondary one if this feature was added.

Paypaldamon,

I would need to have an idea of how severe the demand is before I could go forward with presenting it (I have reported it several times, but we would like to know the demand first).

Well like stated above by raqworld, if other companies can do it why not paypal? If you make it simple, if not all, most of us would use it and why not? The only reason I can't stand paypal is because of the hassle the user has to go through. Besides, it is not a good feeling when a customer quits at the payment form. I mean, if you are so concerned about fraud, etc., then you can monitor business merchants based on some credit level or something. It should not be that hard to implement. Make it easier for our customers so they don't leave without paying and I will use paypal as a primary processor instead of an option and I am sure a lot of others will too.

By the way, why stop at just hosting companies - I mean this could be nice for all small businesses who do not want the hassles of a merchant account. Other features like recurring billing etc., may be nice but if it makes sense I would switch in a minute.

thanks

Thanks for the input.

The primary reason for the account-based system (concerning fraud) is that we can identify individuals that may not be acting in an "appropriate" manner. There are some discussions happening about non-account creation, but I think there could be some limitations if it were to be put in place.


There is a fair amount of interest in what users would like surrounding this...so all comments are appreciated.

DEFINITELY! Get the payment process more streamlined for the customer, and we will probably use it as a primary payment route, rather than an alternative as it is now.

And I agree, we business members should be generating FAR more transactions and dollar amounts than the personal accounts do...so why not give us a few extra enhancements and features? Listening to this crowd would undoubtedly yield increased income for PayPal in short time. :)

Originally posted by paypaldamon
The invoice possibility is an intriguing one. I don't think, however, that it will help in a chargeback dispute (at this time). I will bring it up to our policy team.


It would be great to find out if this is possible.

Since domain registration can be easily verified as being deliver to the buyer, I think the protection should be given to these types of businesses.

All you would have to do is look at the registrar data for verification of the delivery of the product.

Originally posted by paypaldamon
How many web hosts do you think would be interested in this? I just had an actual inquiry about it. I know I would and many others, am currently using PayPal as my main source of getitng payments, it's simple and very secure in my eyes, byut the forusm for my visitors just kill it.

As soon as I let them know that PayPal is the only way they can pay(aside from Mail-Order checks) or they read that PayPal is the main source of paying they just leave and don't bother signing up.

So count me in for this idea!

Originally posted by paypaldamon
I would need to have an idea of how severe the demand is before I could go forward with presenting it (I have reported it several times, but we would like to know the demand first). [/B]

I for one would use it more than I do now. 2Checkout would become secondary and would ge phased out.

I would also think that based on your rates you would gain a great deal of hosting co's.

Thank you all for the suggestions, as well as for expressing your needs.

Paypal is real good and professional.
However, if you are outside the US it's not very cool.
Clients love it anyways.
We are waiting for it to get truly international.
It a must have for everybody.
Very nice and warm people...

have a great day :)

Regards
amar

Originally posted by paypaldamon
How many web hosts do you think would be interested in this? I just had an actual inquiry about it.

This would be a great addition to the service. I would use paypal more or may even switch it to my primary way of accepting credit cards.

Paypal is real good and professional.
However, if you are outside the US it's not very cool.

Totally agree. As a Canadian PayPal does not do us many favours. It is hard to setup and sometimes I don't think it's worth it.

Does the possibility of using the subscription service make it more enticing for users to sign up? Do you think it is easier for them to make recurring payments in that manner? I was just thinking that it might be an easier way to advise users why they should sign up.

As an FYI, HONG KONG and SINGAPORE have just been added as countries users can add their bank account to. This will allow them to accept payments for withdrawals.

Yes, it does make it easier for us merchants.

Getting to that point is usually the problem.

Just the other day, one of my customer was signing up to pay by paypal. She got confuse and used our normal credit card processor instead. You need to make the process easier, more like paying by credit card processor.

With the credit card processor, they fill out one simple form and it's done and over with.

Also for the merchant, at the moment it is easier to interface to credit card processor with api that they provide. What paypal provided is confusing and hard to program to interface with.

The IPN does not work well so far in our test of the system.

Why don't your system automatically send the relavent address info on default as it is needed in most case?

Is there an option for merchant to specify that the user MUST send this info at the time they make payment?

Originally posted by paypaldamon

Some of the other issues do have to do with customer education, which every company can afford to make as easy as possible.
Only people from very few country can register and pay by paypal.
So, majority of people on Earth can't use PayPal.

Only people from very few country can register and pay by paypal.

I don't know if it should be for use in all countries - no disrespect. I am saying that from technical/business standpoint. There are several challenges in incorporating an online payment system like this. First of all, a lot of countries do not have electronic bank networks and other infrastructure that is needed. Second of all, fraud is a major problem - credit analysis, evaluation, reporting is virtually absent in most countries. So, there are a lot of issues. You can not just go and start accepting payment from everyone from anywhere. It is also a business and most countries do not have enough Internet users to cover the transactions.

It could be easier, definitely.

Originally posted by Gurudev


I don't know if it should be for use in all countries - no disrespect. I am saying that from technical/business standpoint. There are several challenges in incorporating an online payment system like this. First of all, a lot of countries do not have electronic bank networks and other infrastructure that is needed. Second of all, fraud is a major problem - credit analysis, evaluation, reporting is virtually absent in most countries. So, there are a lot of issues. You can not just go and start accepting payment from everyone from anywhere. It is also a business and most countries do not have enough Internet users to cover the transactions.

It could be easier, definitely.

Why clickbank, revecom, ibill can be used in all countries, but paypal can't?

I was thinking a while back but never emailed to suggest it. Since your here in the forums.

What if each account had a list of trusted sellers that can place charges to the account. Also they can set how it is paid(credit, bank, or balance). This way clients could add a company to there trusted list and the company then could make any charges appropriate. For security reasons maybe the clients could put a limit on monthly charges or such. Then have a programatic way for us companies to "charge" the client whenever needed. This would make using Paypal easier for the buyers and the sellers. Currently the billing process is very complicated using the paypal service. I mean it works, but not as well as it could. Currently I send out a bill each month by email to all my customers with a Invoice and a link that sends them to the web accept page. They click the link and pay the bill. Like I said, this works. Just becuase it works doesn't mean it works good. I believe the feature describe above would really help both buyers and sellers on the paypal network.

You don't use the subscriptions? Those rule. Automated monthly/yearly/weekly/etc billing by Paypal.

Well, I had though about it but what do you do if you need to charge something different some months?

Originally posted by Ping
Well, I had though about it but what do you do if you need to charge something different some months?

Good question.

For a subscription service like web hosting it works great though! :)

When a customer upgrades, you have to cancel the transaction and start over again.

It would be great if we can send the customer back to the same subscription and modify the amount needed.

I use(d) PayPal for my site and for a while I wasn't getting any orders. I later found out that their site wasn't working. There have also been several times where I've tried to access my account, but couldn't b/c their server was down. Trying to contact customer support was impossible. I'd get a non-helpful response after a few WEEKS! Yes, that's right...not days...but weeks. I guess I shouldn't complain since it's free...but if you have to have reliable merchant service (and what business doesn't) stay as far away from PayPal as you can get!!!!!!!!

Our site uptime is well in the high 99.+ range. Our customer service response is typically well within 24-48 hours, as well as the additional support I offer on the forums.

If users have issues, and they are continuing, there is probably some other issue at hand. I would invite any user experiencing technical difficulty to contact me immediately.

My apologies for any issues you have had in the past. May I ask when this was?

Damon I have a question about the new policy changes that go into effect on Dec 13th.

I have more than a few customers signed up for web hosting via your subscription plan, and I'm pretty sure more than 1 or 2 of those customers are not verified yet, what sort of aggravation will they or I have when the new "no verification no pay" policy starts?

Is it time to layout the fees to get a 2checkout account now? I've been so happy with Paypal up until now for literally 97% of my business that I haven't bothered but if this is going to be as big a problem as I think it is, when I get those emails after the 13th asking "how do I pay" I'll be giving them links to 2checkout.com to start up a recurring billing plan there and telling them to cancel their Paypal subscriptions.

Or am I misinterpreting this whole policy?

The only thing that is changing is that a user must have a credit card/bank account on file, which was not a requirement before. I am not sure if I can explain the change in a way that is easy---all it is doing is impacting their ability to send money without having confirmed some identification information.

On several subscriptions I see:
(This subscriber is Unverified) by their name and
Shipping Address (Status: Confirmed) by their address

How will I know which subscribers will have hassles?

[b]<<Removed: Cross posted multiple times>>

Originally posted by arurenusan
<<Removed: Cross posted multiple times>>
PayPal DOES in fact have customer support, and a number published on their site (granted, you have to look for it): 888-221-1161. I have actually called it a time or two and have talked with a very helpful representative.

So if this "fact" of yours is so obviously untrue, how do you expect anyone to believe any of the other slanderous comments you spout off? Seems to me like you have a chip on your shoulder, and are simply too immature to deal with it properly.

I have no doubt that users have difficulties with PayPal from time to time (we've lost several potential customers because up until recently we only accepted payments via PayPal), but I think your comments may be treading on some shaky legal ground, and you should take care of your footing.

Those tales of frozen accounts and double charging sure do put a chill up my spine, since 95% of my customers pay via the Paypal subscription service.

But on the flip side, I've been using Paypal for a long time with literally, 0 problems. I put roughly 300 transactions through paypal a month now and no problems.

Paypal has how many customers? I know it's millions, and all they could dredge up were about 20 truly chilling horror stories, and a bunch more what I'd call "inconvenience" stories.

Also, you only get one side of the picture, the customer complaining, and you've gotta remember, you can go to any prison in the US and ask every prisoner there "are you guilty" and you'll be astounded to find that over 99% of the people in jail today are INNOCENT!

Hello Damon.

Any update on imporving the shopping cart system so users don't have to sign up? Count me in also.

Thanks.

Winnie [Same on OTWA :D ]

I've noticed quite a lot of complaints here:

http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/list.html?num=10

In light of all of that, I don't think I will be using PayPal for my merchant services. I mean look at the entire topic. It's all about Paypal. :eek:

What if one day I, as a business, had tons of $ in my account or just lots of customers on the rebilling cycle and they decided to freeze it? I will not only be out of the $ I already have, but my entire customer base as well. Check this thread out:

http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=10&thread=3305

Hey paypaldamon posts over there too!

Man that sure is a lot of posts.

The ones I like are "a customer sent me money they made by ripping someone off now my account is locked down".

Whooo now that would be something eh? Imagine if it worked like that elsewhere.

You're leaving the grocery store after buying some diapers, and the cops bust you on the way out.

SIR, THAT $20 IN YOUR POSSESSION WAS STOLEN IN A BANK ROBBERY THIS MORNING.

YOU ARE UNDER ARREST!

me: but I just got this $20 in my change from buying diapers!?

YES AND NOW YOU'RE GOING TO JAIL

hehe oh man.

added:

I do have to say, I've used them a long time and no problems.

HOWEVER

BILLPOINT, now there's a service that I've used 3 times and they've already pissed me off.

They closed my account.

Said I gave false information.

The only info they asked for was name/address/bank account, well, they've deposited money into the bank account twice, so I guess that wasn't it. Address? Business address given was the same as on my business checks. So I emailed them "what was this false info? Maybe I mistyped something I'm hardly perfect" and never a response, just closed.

Billpoint doesn't do recurring billing either, so they're totally useless to me.

Oh and the two payments, I'm 100% sure were carded. Same "customer" different CC info each time, and I mean TOTALLY different.

Go go Billpoint! Sure as hell won't use them ever again. Well guess I can't THEY CLOSED MY ACCOUNT haha.

Check this out:


Made by dodge98ram over at Auctionwatch:

http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=10&thread=1257


I am a seller on most of the auctions sites. I take a lot of payments through Paypal. On September 26th I received a notice to prove a product was shipped to a customer in early May. I immediately emailed a copy of the documents and never heard back from them. On October 1st when a customer attempted to send money to my account they were greeted with a message saying, "the account has been locked". I now have no access to my account including being able to retrieve the money I have in the account. I have emailed Paypal over twenty times attempting to settle this with no answer. I have used every email address I can find. After looking for several days I found a phone number for them - (877) 672-9725. They are not listed anywhere in any directory. When I called their toll free number, everyone I talked to there say the department that locked the account is completely separate from the main location and no one "is allowed access or phone numbers to that department". I am losing business (not to mention customer goodwill) every day. I literally have no option than to initiate a lawsuit. Fortunately my brother-in-law is an attorney. If anyone else has had this or similar problems with Paypal please contact me.

The product team is still looking at the possibility of accepting cc payments without account creation.

As it relates to this, the user was defrauded by a seller. I can comment below.


"
1. They offer NO fraud protection for buyers. Contrary to belief, PayPal does not protect you in ANY way at all. If a seller defrauds you and sends you nothing or a piece of crap, tough luck. PayPal will not recognize this as fraud nor seize the criminal's account. This is what happened to me. A felon scammed me and PayPal is harboring him for illegal activities. Why? Because PayPal can collect a fee of 2.9% on my transaction. If PayPal has frozen the felon's account, they have not refunded my money. PayPal has then chosen to keep my money for themselves. If the seller's account is locked due to fraud, the cash now belongs to PayPal. Even though it was MY money. They have the power to reverse the charge, and being the only witness of the cash exchange, they will turn a blind eye to fraud and chose to keep their 2.9% fee.


PayPal's Buyer Complaint Process, as well as how it works, is clearly defined on the web site. We DO NOT guarantee recovery from bad sellers. The party needs to work on recourse through other channels now.


2. PayPal is a private company (LLC). They are not FDIC insured. This means that if they go out of business, then you will lose all your money.

Customer money is kept entirely separate from operating expenses.

3. PayPal has no customer support. They do not publish a telelphone number anywhere on their website. Why? They don't care about your problems. All they want is to collect a fees.

The information can be found on the web site after your log in. The information provided depends on the account type you have.

I think the fact that I try to resolve issues proactively, while also explaining our policies, does speak to the fact that PayPal is interested in providing top-notch customer support.

Damon, you are on every bulletin board! What other boards do you hang out at?

LOL! Too many:) Mostly auction, web hosting sites. AW, OTWA,etc.

You have read PayPalDamon's politically correct answer. His job is to make users with legitimate gripes look stupid across these message boards by not directly answering the questions. Note he said "Customer money is kept entirely separate from operating expenses". This does not mean anything, because once a company declares bankruptcy, it doesn't matter where the money is, and as long as they have it, they do not have to release your money. This happened to me before where I was locked out of $2000 from a bankrupt company. Secondly, he said "The information can be found on the web site after your log in. The information provided <b>depends on the account type you have</b>." Depends? Do you people see how PC this answer is? He will not state anymore fact, such as it may not appear at all if you are a buyer. Or it appears only if you are Santa Claus. All this is so bogus!

I don't know how you people found the customer support number, but let me give you a quote from PayPal:

"As for the customer service, [we] intentionally make the phone number very difficult to find in order to save costs." from
this article: http://www.msnbc.com/news/511209.asp

Well, they definitely succeeded because I couldn't find it. But even if you call that number, they will tell you that the main office that is handling your complaint is no where to be found.

You should also be aware that PayPal employs people to do damage control on these web forums Most of them seem to just try to make users like me look stupid. These web forums allow consumers to speak out and "Fight Back!".

I rest my case. If you were me, you have just been screwed by PayPal. You saw the replies I got here. If you were me, tell me what you can do with these replies. Absolutely nothing.

For those of you brown-nosers who believe I am making all this stuff up, go to auctionwatch.com and read other people's posts. These are legitimate user complaints.

Again, I emphasize that PayPal has not done a thorough investigation on the FELON. I do not know where my money is. They will not specify. All they said is "We cannot refund you. Take other measures. Goodbye." So how will I know if they are harboring this criminal and his illegal activities? I do not know.

You are the consumer, and you have been warned. If PayPalDamon is the only person on these message boards, then this is the extent of their customer support. These are the lame replies I got back. You decide and take the risks.

If you are defrauded by a felon, and I've proven that I have clearly been, do you think you will get your money back? I also acted swiftly by reporting the felon to officials. Ebay and authorities have acted, EXCEPT for PayPal. And PayPal is the only witness to the felon for taking my money. Who else can I turn to?

Do you people not see that PayPalDamon is trying to change the subject of this matter? Do you feel PayPal will really try to get your money back if you have been defrauded? Do you think I have not been defrauded? And you call this fraud protection?

Use a real merchant if you want real buyer's protection. PayPal's Buyer Protection is simply BOGUS. They will simply tell you "recovery of fund is not a guarantee". Like they even tried. They don't even tell you anything.

I am providing the correct answer, but it is not what you want to hear.

Would sending payment through any medium have guaranteed delivery from the seller?

No.

Can you take action against the seller.

Yes.

Have I advised you as to what you need to do?

Yes.

Have I advised you what information you will need to get to find out the activity on another person's account?

Yes.

Where does PayPal attempt recovery from?
The PayPal account.

Does PayPal offer the items for sale on another venue?
No. Individuals do.

Will we release information on another party?
Yes, with the proper documentation. Much as we would not release information on you without it.



PayPal processes 200,000 transactions daily. Postings on message boards frequently contain situations like yours, where a party was apparently defrauded by a seller.

"Would sending payment through any medium have guaranteed delivery from the seller?

No."

--WRONG, I SHOULD HAVE USED AN ESCROW SERVICE SUCH AS TRADENABLE.COM.

"Can you take action against the seller.

Yes. "

--WRONG. LEGALLY, I HAVE THE RIGHT TO TAKE ACTION AGAINST THE SELLER. BUT I DO NOT KNOW WHO THE SELLER IS BECAUSE PAYPAL WILL NOT DO AN INVESTIGATION.

"Have I advised you as to what you need to do?

Yes. "

--WRONG. YOUR ADVICE IS FOR ME TO CONTACT THE FELON, WHO IS NO WHERE TO BE FOUND. I WOULD LIKE TO CONTACT THE FELON IF PAYPAL DOES AN INVESTIGATION AND RELEASE THIS FELON'S INFORMATION.

"Have I advised you what information you will need to get to find out the activity on another person's account?

Yes. "

--$2000 ADVICE THAT WILL TAKE A LONG TIME. BY THE TIME I HAVE THE SUBPOENA, THE FELON WOULD HAVE TAKEN OFF AND I WOULD HAVE LOST $608.50 + $2000.


"Where does PayPal attempt recovery from?
The PayPal account. "

--SO HAVE YOU LOCKED THE FELON'S ACCOUNT AND TOOK THE MONEY OR IS THIS FELON STILL DOING BUSINESS ON THE INTERNET, EVEN AFTER I HAVE REPORTED HIM THROUGH FRAUD ALERT? PAYPAL IS NOT SPECIFYING AND WILL NOT SPECIFY. BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN NO ACTION, OR ACTION THAT PAYPAL DOES NOT WANT THE PUBLIC TO KNOW.

"Does PayPal offer the items for sale on another venue?
No. Individuals do. "

--IS PAYPAL NOT THE WITNESS TO A FRAUD? I AM NOT SAYING PAYPAL IS THE FELON, BUT PAYPAL DOES NOT DO A GOOD JOB OF VERIFYING A COMPANY SUCH AS "VISTEONINC@USA.NET" THAT IS SELLING PIRATED SOFTWARE ON THE INTERNET. I THOUGHT PAYPAL SCREENS OUT CRIMINALS CAREFULLY. OR IS PAYPAL A CONDUIT FOR CRIMINALS AND THEIR ACTIVITIES?

I REST MY CASE.

Here is your issue, which is a merchandise quality issue. I am attaching our terms of use here for all users to view. Again, we will not release information on an account without proper legal documentation. Your issue is with the seller---we will comply with all LEGAL requests for information on the party.

Buyer Complaint Policy


General. If you pay a seller who does not ship the promised goods, you should first contact the seller and attempt to resolve the dispute. If you are unable to resolve the dispute in this manner, you should then file a Buyer Complaint Form with PayPal as soon as possible. The Buyer Complaint Form may be found by going to the "Security Center" link in the footer of any page on the PayPal website.

PayPal will investigate your claim, contact the seller and, if the seller does not present appropriate proof of shipment, a full refund or other evidence of a satisfactory resolution, PayPal will seek to collect the amount you paid from the seller. PayPal may also restrict the seller's PayPal account. You and other buyers who file claims against the same seller will be entitled to the return of any and all funds PayPal is able to collect from the seller, on a first-come, first-served basis for funds received by PayPal prior to the restriction of the seller's account. RECOVERY OF YOUR CLAIM IS NOT GUARANTEED.

Complaints must be filed no later than 30 days from the date of payment. PayPal will seek to resolve the complaint within 30 days of the date the complaint is filed, though such time frame may be extended, if appropriate, to accommodate the investigation.


Additional Protection for eBay Auctions. For purchases made on eBay using PayPal, PayPal offers additional protection to domestic Users who pay a Verified seller but do not receive their goods. This additional protection is not available for International Users. If PayPal is unable to recover all of your funds through our investigation of a qualifying dispute, you may file a claim under eBay's Insurance Claims process (an "eBay Claim"). If your eBay Claim is granted but does not cover the full amount of your loss, PayPal will reimburse you for up to $200 of additional losses, whether or not PayPal is able to recover such funds from the seller.

In order to receive this additional protection, you must file a Buyer Complaint Form with PayPal no more than 30 days after the eBay transaction, following the same process outlined in (i) above. You may file your eBay Claim at any time, but eBay is likely to require you to obtain a determination from PayPal before they will process your claim. If and when your eBay claim is granted, you must contact PayPal customer service no more than 30 days after the grant date. You will need to provide PayPal with a copy of the eBay Claim that you filed and satisfactory evidence that your eBay Claim was granted. PayPal may also require additional documentation as proof of your identity. PayPal will reimburse you for up to $200 of additional losses not covered by the eBay claim within 30 days of the date you provide evidence that your eBay Claim was granted. This time frame may be extended if necessary to ensure the accuracy of the claim.

This Additional Protection does not apply to disputes about the quality or attributes of delivered goods, goods that have been lost in the mail as shown by seller's presentation of proof of shipment, payments for services, payments to Unverified sellers, or a seller's failure to deliver intangible goods. In order to be eligible for the eBay Additional Protection, you must have paid for the undelivered goods with a single payment from a single PayPal account. The seller's Verification status will be displayed to you on the PayPal website when you confirm the details of your transaction, giving you the opportunity to cancel the transaction prior to sending payment if you do not want to pay an Unverified seller.

Sorry, but we have a user we have to deal with before this thread can be re-opened.