It seems that security services are getting their Xmas wishlists for the past x decades answered. Sample quotes:
The Home Office Secretary is readying legislation that may ask, or even require, ISPs to retain or keep records of which websites their customers visit, what newsgroup articles they read and who they email, for up to 12 months.
and
ISPs have been retaining records since 11 September at the Home Office's request, and last week indicated to vnunet.com's sister publication Computing their willingness to hold records for up to three months.
Governments have been trying for years to work out how to monitor the free flow of information. Brits will remember the episodes with the Wilson government and CND - other countries have their own examples. Now anyone against this attack on personal privacy is accused of lack of patriotism. :eek: Link is here (http://www.computing.vnunet.com/News/1126338). Still, at least it will be useful in tracking down people hiding in the mountains of Afghanistan...not.

The many laws that have, or will be, put into affect are scary and disturbing at best.

There are many of us which agree that the very thing our leaders say we are fighting for -- FREEDOM -- is what we are at risk of losing quickly in the name of winning the war that supposed to allow us to keep FREEDOM aroun ... :angry:

Sacrifices may need to be made in order for safety to be preserved.
I don't like it as much as the next person.
But, the alternative is unacceptable.

<just an observation>

Operation Enduring Safety would then be a better name for this war. Operation Enduring Freedom seems to be a war that can't be won if safety is the primary objective.

I fear many will feel we lost the war for Freedom if it takes the loss of freedom to win (oxymoron)

The cost of freedom can often be measured in the loss of freedom.

There cannot be total freedom without total chaos.

But, back to the safety thing. . . . We often give up freedoms for safety. I don't agree with it all; but I have agreed to abide by them. Many laws are there to "protect" us.
It 'does' cost us some freedoms to remain free. At least as free as a society as advanced as ours could be, I suppose.
I don't agree with the law where I live that you must wear a helmet when you ride a motorcycle. But it saves lives.
I don't agree with the law here that says you must use a seatbelt while you're traveling in a car. But it saves lives.
I don't agree with the laws around here that put me in jail for experimenting in horticulture. But, oh wait; that's a different set of laws.
Hey!! That's just taking away my freedom and not contributing to the safety thing!

I'll post back after I take a short intermission. :smokin:

Originally posted by SoftWareRevue
The cost of freedom can often be measured in the loss of freedom.
There cannot be total freedom without total chaos

So a dictatorshop (=total loss of freedom) will be total freedom?
I don't think anyone who is scared about the amount of control the governments will get want's total chaos.

<DISCLAIMER> It's 4 AM the following is the rantings of a tired person who quite honestly knows little about the politics of it all. I'm just chatting online and by no means want to debate :)</DISCLAIMER> It 'does' cost us some freedoms to remain free. At least as free as a society as advanced as ours could be, I suppose.
I don't agree with the law where I live that you must wear a helmet when you ride a motorcycle. But it saves lives.
I don't agree with the law here that says you must use a seat belt while you're traveling in a car. But it saves lives. Arizona has a "Stupid Motorist Law" (I kid you not). The law basically states that if you choose to be an idiot you'll pay the price (cars driving through "Do not cross flash flood area" signs, end up trapped in a flooded area, and because of the Stupid Motorist Law the driver is responsible for the cost of the rescue team that has to pull them out and fined heavily etc..)

The laws you post above seem to be inline with the "Stupid Motorist Law". Intelligent humans have a serious addiction to stupidity... I smoke... yet I value my life.. DOH! People drink and drive, do not place their children in safety seats, do not wear helmets, etc ... The laws made are in fact for their safety... safety from their own stupidity... but they are not things that take away their freedom.

Funny thing about freedom... it allows us to make our own choices and deal with the consequences of those choices.

Odd thing about some of the potential laws being worked on now is that they really do remove our choice and they are not "for our safety" as much as we like to think/hope/pray they are. Logging everything we do online is not going to prevent an attack... it simply helps us to figure out who did it... and even that's a big maybe considering how many logs there would be to sift through.. -- Then again maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they'll read everything that passes through the lines. Maybe some hi-tech FBI agent will smile when I email my son and tell him how much I love him... ugh the thought of someone else knowing my every move (since I seem to only move on the net lol) just doesn't seem right.

In America most laws are put to a vote before they are approved. It's this process that allows all parties to refine the law and ensure there are as little "loop-holes" as possible and that the law is clear and correct for what it was intended for. But now... yikes... things are just happening because we got caught with our pants down and bills are being passed with little consideration for their long term affects.

I agree to gain we must lose from time to time... I only hope our leaders are thinking everything all the way through rather than remaining focussed on current events while forgetting future affects... I hope I'm simply being irrational. I pray our leaders are given the wisdom they need. Yet in my heart... I can't help but to see just the opposite. I'm not "old and wise" but I have lived long enough to see laws "for our own safety" come back to bite us later and I hate the idea of adding more to them...

Back to the smoking part -- I wonder how many people have died because of smoke... Strange we haven't made a law against cigarettes yet huh? Consider the death toll.. I can't imagine why they haven't hurried to protect us from them...hmm I guess there is some really good reason we should continue selling cigarettes (e.g. are the priorities straight when our leaders consider our "safety")

But the bottom line -- I'm still PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN and thankful that I was fortunate enough to be born here!!! I will "comply" to the best of my ability up to a certain point and that's a point we have not yet reached thank goodness ;)

Deb
-- Wow been a long time since I've played devil's advocate :P

Originally posted by Deb
I only hope our leaders are thinking everything all the way through rather than remaining focussed on current events while forgetting future affects...

Yes, I hope that too. That's what makes a leader a wise man!

I hope I'm simply being irrational. I pray our leaders are given the wisdom they need. Yet in my heart... I can't help but to see just the opposite. I'm not "old and wise" but I have lived long enough to see laws "for our own safety" come back to bite us later and I hate the idea of adding more to them...

It's very sad. I am not from the US (but like the country much) but rfom Europe, and here I can see the same trend.

Back to the smoking part -- I wonder how many people have died because of smoke... Strange we haven't made a law against cigarettes yet huh? Consider the death toll.. I can't imagine why they haven't hurried to protect us from them...hmm I guess there is some really good reason we should continue selling cigarettes (e.g. are the priorities straight when our leaders consider our "safety")

Good point. In life we have priorities. Some override others. This is why we sometimes go to war and risk death.

In your above example, you pointed out that we don't like the death toll caused by cigarettes. But our love of freedom to choose overrides the gains from outlawing smoking.

Well, it's good to have a debate on this - because I get the feeling that a lot of things are kind of sliding by us at the moment. For example, I'm busy so I haven't been reading much -but I didn't have a clue until yesterday that ISPs were already storing all the information deliberately and had the intention to hand it over if requested.

I feel it's a danger to go down this road. Some members of the forum who have lived in dictatorships no doubt have stories to tell about the control of information and communication - and how difficult it is to get those freedoms back once they have been lost.

At the moment everyone looks the other way, but would you have been happy with these powers in the hands of Nixon or either Kennedy - neither of whom would have been averse to misusing them? Would I be happy with them in the hands of Jörg Haider (sorry, Walter, if you're FPÖ!)? We all know stories of how centralised powers have been misused by government agencies - because it's easy for them to do it. Should we all be fingerprinted? Should we all carry an ID card with information chips inserted?

Does it have any practical help? Probably not, because steganography and normal letters will take the place of e-mail for the dedicated lawbreaker or terrorist. How far is this going to be used? Search for anthrax. OK? Search for cocaine. OK? Search for marijuana. OK? Search for communist rhetoric. OK? And how soon is it before information gathered this way starts getting sold by people with access to it?

My freedom is what makes my society different and I would hope that the aim and result of any action being undertaken now is to protect it, rather than limit it.

Deb, even tho' it was late you made a lot of sense ;)

Regards

Originally posted by Deb
. . . .been a long time since I've played devil's advocate :P :eek: Hey! I thought that was my job.

I often like to take the less popular side of things to evoke a reaction and, thus, conversations that enlighten.:cartman:

Now I have to re-evaluate just what the less popular side is.
I suppose it, still, has to be the logging of information :rolleyes:
So . . . . Although it can be viewed as an invasion of privacy issue; it needs to be considered one of those annoying things we must endure for the good of the many.
Will it stop future attacks? No
Will it find those responsible when they strike again? Unlikely
Will it make someone fear anonymity and thus limit their efforts? Possibly
Does it scare the hell out of me? Definitely
Is it needed? I suppose that is the debate.
We often engage in new technologies before having a use for it.
Maybe, if this plan is implemented, there will become a more obvious use for it. Even though it may not be completely clear right now.

Maybe, if this plan is implemented, there will become a more obvious use for it. Even though it may not be completely clear right now. Oh plenty of obvious uses..and many are completely clear right now.... They just don't seem to apply to my safety and/or freedom :mad:

Today I paid for everything w/ cash, I used stickGlue to seal my envelopes, wore gloves to check my mail, used a letter opener to open it, a shredder to throw it away. I checked my gas masks and examined the sky for any odd movements. I carried my children to the basement to put them to bed and told them fairy tales about the Constitution. As the night calmed I sent an email to my friend to tell her about the rock concert I will be attending next week.

Dear Friend,

I got front row seats!! We're going to be at "Terror in the City" in just 5 days!! It'll be Da'Bomb for sure!! Oh I wish you could have be here but I understand why you can't.

I'll see you soon!
Your Friend....
Deb

--Click Send--

How could I have been so stupid? I can't take it back now..what's done is done. They'll be pounding on my door soon... I better call the babysitter. I'll probably be in questioning for the next couple of days....

--

And the above is only true if they _will_ be using it to prevent something bad.... heh I'm still flying my Flag though ;)

The original post was relating to UK laws. This is US:

-- Senator Russell Feingold, Senate Debate on USA PATRIOT Anti-Terrorism Bill, October 25, 2001

"Another provision that troubles me a lot is one that permits the Government, under FISA, to compel the production of records from any business regarding any person if that information is sought in connection with an investigation of terrorism or espionage. I want to be clear here, as well, we are not talking about travel records directly pertaining to a terrorist suspect, which we can all see obviously can be highly relevant to an investigation of a terrorist plot. FISA already gives the FBI the power to get airline, train, hotel, car rental, and other records of a suspect.

Under this provision, the Government can apparently go on a fishing expedition and collect information on virtually anyone. All it has to allege, in order to get an order for these records from the court, is that the information is sought for an investigation of international terrorism or clandestine intelligence gathering. That is it. They just have to say that. On that minimal showing, in an ex parte application to a secret court, with no showing even that the information is relevant to the investigation, the Government can lawfully compel a doctor or a hospital to release medical records or a library to release circulation records. This is truly a breathtaking expansion of police power."