I want to warn all webhosts at WHT about one of the visitors here at WHT who is again shopping for an account for an adult site- one of the very rare occurances we had a fraudulent customer. As under normal circumstances I respect privacy a lot I will not post any details.
He is shopping for around 200 GB traffic per month for an adult site and is from Australia. I have spoken to a mod, it seems that he is using two different WHT user names (the mod can't nail him down currently as he has used a different IP).
Send me an email if you want further details or proof.

I've emailed him asking that he take care of this. I hope it is resolved soon, keep us informed. Any member who host hops will be banned from making requests, and possibly banned from the forums. I don't believe it has happened before, so we'll have to talk about it...

Another example of why replies should be allowed in the Requests forum.
So that others could be more easily warned.:rolleyes:

I am not interested in adult hosting but I am new to the board so I am interested to learn the protocols, culture, etc.. I am curious what "host hopping" is and what it is that this guy did that you all are concerned about.

Thanks

Using one host for a month, saying you're unsatisfied, get your money back and goto the next host.

I hate those people :angry:

You can refund their money, but you have a full right to bill them for the bandwidth that they might have used up. Bandwidth does not come free.

Some hosts do not refund money unless there was a problem on their side...

Originally posted by Bogdan
you have a full right to bill them for the bandwidth that they might have used up

yes. But some people think they have the right to ignore such a bill.

They can easily "charge back" the money billed to them!:(

just my .02 cents

I would advise the following of this board whom might be worried about host hoppers to do the following:

1) set up a list of domain names that have jumped because of "service issues"
2) database is avalible to those that are registered as host (and or) resellers.
3) keep the list blind so that when a name (web site or owner) is submitted the list can bounce back a reply of :

a) type of service dispute, last hosting company(s), and date.
b) never on the list ( new )

basicaly your designing a black list of users and web site names.

but it must be blind inorder to prevent one host from poaching another host clients.

-michael

Great Idea

Originally posted by sqposter
just my .02 cents

I would advise the following of this board whom might be worried about host hoppers to do the following:

1) set up a list of domain names that have jumped because of "service issues"
2) database is avalible to those that are registered as host (and or) resellers.
3) keep the list blind so that when a name (web site or owner) is submitted the list can bounce back a reply of :

a) type of service dispute, last hosting company(s), and date.
b) never on the list ( new )

basicaly your designing a black list of users and web site names.

but it must be blind inorder to prevent one host from poaching another host clients.

-michael

Nice idea..but isnt there a small privacy thing in AUP that says we shall not submit or resell your info...etc etc?
This may sound good but it is illegal, thus it may be the only way...

Well, if you are going along the lines of creating a "black list" then changing your AUP will still be in line. Just modify it to show that :

1) accounts that are terminated with in 30 days do not get the "rights" that are associated with long term users.

In business, we can set up terms and conditions that favor the business owner during the contract, based on the time spent with the account .

2) accounts that are found to be in violation of the TOS ( fraud, child porn ...) will not get their "rights" that are associated with user in good standing

remmember, the bad accounts only stay for 30 days, so your list will be up to date within 31 days for filtering.

If you are interested in more information look at the "MAPS realtime blackhole list". Maps has the e-mail spam filter and relay checker. but they have a list of bad apples (spammers with their mailing address) that you can check your users against.

-Michael

Excuse me, but from a customer's perspective...

You are saying that if a customer terminates an account within 30 days he will be put on a black list.

Would I want to use such a host for my needs? The answer has to be a resounding NO - whatever the merits of your arguements.

What is to stop a host doing this out of malice? And what options would be available to the customer to put his side of the arguement?

I agree with dev, I don't think it's a good idea.

If I don't think my host is doing a good job, I'll find another (personally I won't demand any refund) but I can see why the hosts thinks it's a good idea. I'd hate to be on a blacklist maybe without even knowing about it.

What if I have a a dispute with a host, that for some reason wants to get back at me? ( I don't think that will happen often, but ...)

I don't have another soloution, I admit that.

Im not sure I understood you right. Did you mean that the list should be on WHT?
In that case forget it! I would personally not have anything to do with a host on this board if they had the possibility to blacklist me to all the other hosts. I think the hosts should make such a list and atleast keep WHT out of it!

I SEE the problem and understand that you're furious. From a customer perspective I just don't agree with it.

Originally posted by Jonah
I don't have another soloution, I admit that.

Actually, there IS a simple solution. If a host is worried about host hopping, DON'T offer a no-questions-asked money back guareantee. After all, this guarantee is just one marketing method. You are hoping that your gains will be greater than your losses. If you are not willing to tolerate these losses then move on to a different strategy.

Well,

That is a solution. Maybe a bit drastic one, but certaintly a better solution than the blacklist.

Don't misunderstand me: I don't mind the hosts having a blacklist, they're entitled to and it is a valid tool in my opinion. Hey, you should do what it 'takes' to protect yourself, and I don't blame the hosts that they think about their business.

just keep it OUT OF WHT!

I think a blacklist here on WHT will make people suspisious to whether they're on the list or not, there'll be alot of accusations and thrash talk, and people will do everything in order to find out whether they're on the list.

I assumed from the discussion that nobody cares if you terminated 1 host account, or maybe 2. We're talking about people who do this over and over right?

Opening an account that you have no intention of sustaining is bad faith, and a vendor has a right to try to protect him/herself IHMO.

Originally posted by froidian
I assumed from the discussion that nobody cares if you terminated 1 host account, or maybe 2. We're talking about people who do this over and over right?
That is the narrow point and no one will argue with that but there is a bigger issue at stake. If you are offering "unconditional money back guarantee" then you you have no legal or moral grounds to complain, EVEN in the case of abuse. If you want some recourse then you should only offer "conditional money back guarantees" such as "we will only make a refund if we are at fault" etc. Of course, the returns from this will be lower but so will your risk. Yuu can't have it both ways.

"I respect privacy a lot" obvious
You set yourself up to be caught it must be covered by your bandwidth price
Why bring other webhosts down who use this forum actively
How do we know your server is not crap
Change your tact your tract and your tactics
I am from australia shopping for a host I would stay the hell clear of you

Originally posted by undedicated
. . . . . . I am from australia shopping for a host I would stay the hell clear of you :eek: Who you talking to?


:D

http://www.hostproof.com/hosting/lookfor.html

Well I hit a few nerves again hmmm... anyway

1) black list by it's very nature is private.

2) I never mentioned that WHT would be involved but subscribers of the WHT that are hosting companies and (maybe resellers) would be invited.

3) "We're talking about people who do this over and over right?"
yes, but right out of the box if they tried to hose the hosting company with in the first 30 days.

4) "What if I have a a dispute with a host, that for some reason wants to get back at me" or "You are saying that if a customer terminates an account within 30 days he will be put on a black list. "

interesting, but if your there for over 30 days then the host should not post you on the black list. but if they do. Well then you are a) up the creek without a paddel. b) committed to using a less qualified hosting company ( more on this ) or c) the host will not list you on an honest dispute ( but your firm could be posted a pain, companies have diferent privacy and data collection rules that people)

5) just for everyone to know "black list" in the form that I'm discussing, is not the same as spam killing. Spam uses resources without authority. that is why spam blackholing is legal ( think of trespassing ). Black listing is legal within the EC and most other countries but illegal with in the USA ( prevention of trade ). so the list would have to be set up on european servers ( yes they must sit in europe )

6) users policies would have to change.
Something under the guild lines of "conditional money back guarantees"

7) what would be the advantages of the "blacklist"
a) most likely your future account base is cleaner ( no spammers, hackers, frauders ...)
b) you are spending time with paying accounts
c) since your reducing your risk of the accounts you manage you should be able to pull a higher profit margin. your resources are being spent to improve your customer base, not spent on time wasted.

8) "I think a blacklist will make people suspisious to whether they're on the list or not, there'll be alot of accusations and thrash talk, and people will do everything in order to find out whether they're on the list."
the point is that the list is private between host / resellers not the clients that buy the service.

9) "From a customer perspective I just don't agree with it"
you, as the customer, would not be informed that your on the list.

one has to think that the blacklist is 1 giant database that gathers bad client hosting information. if the client is good the "bounce" from your request will show clean ( no other information should be shown )
now if a bad client comes along to host at your place then that report should come back "dirty". and at that point you the hosting company will take or refuse the new account.

I hope I covered the basics. If someone wants to create the list I'm in. Anything that will reduce chargebacks, fraud, and headaches is good for me.

-Michael

This is really two separate threads... I'll attempt to split it sometime... else.

As someone in this thread starts insulting us without reason and Chicken advised me to tell names I want to describe the situation in more detail.

A visitor of Webhostingtalk was searching for an hosting account with much traffic and space. I still don't want to mention his URL or his name in public.
We offered him a 200 GB traffic/month account and, as he was concerned about the speed of our servers, provided him a test account. We agreed that he can use up to 15 GB traffic to see if our services are apropriate for him, if he want's to stay after he had to pay for it, if not, we would not send him a bill. After reaching 10 and 15 GB traffic we sent him an email, and he stated that he is happy with our service and that he want's to stay with us. We sent him the bill but he didn't pay, first claiming that there is an error in the order page of Revecom and after we even setup his own temporary billing page (only a click to pay) he stopped answering our emails. By the time we canceled his account he had consumed 43 GB traffic.
I can show proof for this due to emails and headers.

I just wanted to warn all hosts as he is shopping for a new host. His behaviour is fraudulent and he misused our offer. It is not right for the customer to take advantage of the hosting company they use, just as its not right for the hosting company to provide bad service - something we didn't. Some of his emails even stated "I wish to stay as your server is very good".
I hope all is clarified a bit and I hope this whole issue can settle.

Originally posted by sqposter
1) black list by it's very nature is private.

Then you should not even be discussing this in a public forum like this. No host in there right mind would want to be seen publicly supporting this - the merest hint and potential clients would avoid them like the plague.

yes, but right out of the box if they tried to hose the hosting company with in the first 30 days.
Simple, DON'T offer unconditional money back guarantee. It is your choice to set the contract terms.

Black listing is legal within the EC and most other countries but illegal with in the USA ( prevention of trade ). so the list would have to be set up on european servers ( yes they must sit in europe )
I wouldn't be too sure of that. If a person has done something illegal or wrong, then that might be true. But for just exercising their "right" (offered voluntarily by you) to cancel within the trial period ... come on, you haven't got a leg to stand on in any court. And if you are talking about the EC, then you will probably have violated several consumer protection regulations in the process.

6) users policies would have to change.
Something under the guild lines of "conditional money back guarantees"
In this case, the rest your message is irrelevant - you would have lost nothing.

the point is that the list is private between host / resellers not the clients that buy the service.
You wish! You might keep the individual entries secret - but the existence of the list? When people do wise up then don't be too surprised to see your own name on various hosting blacklists - it's a two-edged sword.

Originally posted by Walter
I just wanted to warn all hosts as he is shopping for a new host. His behaviour is fraudulent and he misused our offer. It is not right for the customer to take advantage of the hosting company they use, just as its not right for the hosting company to provide bad service - something we didn't. Some of his emails even stated "I wish to stay as your server is very good".
I hope all is clarified a bit and I hope this whole issue can settle.

Walter, if what you say is true, then that is case of fraud, pure and simple and you have every right to protect yourself. You shouldn't have described it as host hopping - which although undesirable is not really illegal. You have my sympathy.

Isnt this thread is bringing this forum in to disrepute?
Maybe retail stores should have blacklists for customers who prefer to shop for better quality,price or service.
The time spent on this might be better served on suport.

the point is that the list is private between host / resellers not the clients that buy the service.
Well, I did understand that, but don't you think people will be just a bit paranoid when they want a refund - a refund which may be a result of a lot of downtime and bad servers/lack of support?

Listen, as I said earlier: I just don't want WHT to have anything to do with it, that's all.

If everything was to work out perfect, as in a perfet world - yes it could work! But it's not a perfect world, and there are hosts out there I don't consider honest, aswell as the fact, that there are alot of honest hosts.
(even more).

As someone in this thread starts insulting us
Walter, I don't mean to insult you, if it's me you're referring to. Is it?

the point is that the list is private between host / resellers not the clients that buy the service

Yes, that's why I wrote:

"I think a blacklist will make people SUSPICIOUS to whether they're on the list or not, there'll be alot of accusations and thrash talk, and people will do everything in order to find out whether they're on the list."
They wouldn't be suspicious if they had access to the list!

you, as the customer, would not be informed that your on the list.

Again, Im aware of that - that's why I don't want WHT to have anything to do with it!

Hypothetically, I try Host A and find they aren't as good as expected (even though they were researched). So I bail on them and switch to Host B. Same thing happens, so I switch again, and you'd want to blacklist me? Without finding out why I bailed?

Sure there will be people out there who switch hosts to avoid paying; there are always cheats. But what about those people looking for a good host that keep being disappointed by hosts whose services don't live up to their reputation. You want to blacklist them too?

Am curious. Do most hosts offer money back guarantees no questions asked?
Seems like information as to why the customer is leaving might be useful to any host that cares about improving service and retaining customers. You can't improve the quality of your service if you don't know what the problems are.

Originally posted by Jonah
Walter, I don't mean to insult you, if it's me you're referring to. Is it?

Jonah, as I know a bit about this, no it isn't you.

Well, I think it was me (not Walter) who brought up the term host hopping, and if you read my post, I didn't say this person did, I said anyone caught doing it would have to be discussed by the moderators. This is beside whatever external actions hosts take (setting up lists, etc.).

WHT will not be used as the blacklist, nor were people suggesting it be used this was (from what I can tell). The only point is (as it relates to the thread topic), if a member asks for service from one host, yet does not settle terms with them, then there is a need for some type of action by either the hosts and/or moderators to protect other hosts from this as well (next month).

People who sign up under a 30 day guarrantee and then cancel wouldn't be blacklisted, though if they do this and are terminated for spamming, etc., or they exceed the agreed trial conditions, then it is cause for concern. It doesn't seem right that they'd be able to post another request.

Originally posted by Chicken

Well, I think it was me (not Walter) who brought up the term host hopping,

Thanks for the correction, Chicken.

Walter, many apologies.

I've got to admit, now this thread is bring up some good points.

But there seems to be a side issue about 1 specific account. ( glad I still have the same host and not involved ), I hope that issue gets put somewhere else.

For those that are worried about a blacklist, here is something that you should remmember.

1) sometimes the good get lumped in with the bad. I would think that with a good reporting system any users that ends up on the blacklist could be removed.

2) the objective of the blacklist is to reduce your risk. It's still up to you to choose the client or not.

3) a peer review process would be the way to enter in.

4) if the board was public, you would be subject to system hackers ( they have the most to gain because of the nature of illegal hacking )

5) if anybody want to do this then I'm game. I'm in the process of becoming a reseller (hip hip hurray, I've just got to wait 2 more months), so I would rather turn away 6 accounts to get the very good account. Heck a filter is all I need to keep my business running smoothly. Would sure as heck keep my cost down a bit.

Also How in the heck did WHT get into this thread. I don't ever recall that. It would be like a kiss of death for them. They should remain on the sidelines.

-Sqposter

Originally posted by sqposter
Also How in the heck did WHT get into this thread. I don't ever recall that. It would be like a kiss of death for them. They should remain on the sidelines.

-Sqposter

I think by posting names here on the forum, nothing else.

I am very concerned as a webmaster at this list
Are you going to list my credit card details to?
I thought you had to honor a privacy policy
I shore as hell wont be hosting with any of the web hosts on here
Hell while your at it send in a copy of my details to the irs

Originally posted by sqposter
I'm in the process of becoming a reseller

Would you care to name your company so that we may start OUR blacklist with you at the top?

Originally posted by dev


Would you care to name your company so that we may start OUR blacklist with you at the top?

interesting, now I'm on some blacklist, no less one started by a person that is offended ( which way I don't know ) and to top it off, there is no reason given. shame, this seems to be a vindictive strike with no review process, It would seem that this black list is the incorrect type.

but more to your point:

I'll be glad to post my companies name once I recieve my domestic ( USA ) trademark ( it takes about 6 to 12 weeks and I'm only 4 weeks in ) and a confirmation letter from the european countries that I'm going to register my trademark with.

so I'll be happy to post it up. Also I don't have a problem being associated in the running of the black list. But it is a shame that you won't be on it ( unless of course you are found to be and submitted by fellow (future) members as a host hopper, spammer or breaking one of the rules which would be required by all members to participate in.)

I'm more interested in protecting future good clients at the risk of offending bad clients.

But be aware, when I post my companies name and business (I will be then registered within the EC and the USA) and since you have deemed me "Blacklistable" any and all derogitory or slanderous comments made towards that company in public forum will be delt with accordingly to the European laws ( I've put an e-mail to my barister in Knightsbridge, UK ) or USA law.

And one further point.

I was a baltic exchange (one of the oldest shipping org's in the world for ship and cargo brokers ) member and Bimco member. Delt with the blacklist and used it very effectively. I can honestly say that it saved me and my clients in about 23 trades. I would review my counter party ( and they would review me ) on every trade. Never did I trade with a blacklisted party. Baltic exchange motto "Our Word Our Bond". also take a look at the "rules of conduct and basic principles" found on their site. Great rules of how and international group of people keep the business clean and with honor.

-Michael

This is to everybody!

Everybody has a blacklist whether you like it or not. A mental blacklist. You consult it all the time. It's a part of life.

Now just because we are verbally talking about it and wanting to put it on black and white, what's all the fuss about? Think about it and DO NOT answer. It's a trick question.

End of story.

Originally posted by sqposter
interesting, now I'm on some blacklist, no less one started by a person that is offended ( which way I don't know ) and to top it off, there is no reason given. shame, this seems to be a vindictive strike with no review process, It would seem that this black list is the incorrect type.


No, you haven't hit a sore point with me, and I am not being offended nor am I being vindictive. My reasons are there if you read my previous posts. I don't care either way how you choose to run your company. I am presenting to you the flip side of your own arguement. If you have no qualms about blacklisting perfectly law-abiding people, then why should I (or anybody else) not blacklist you for practising and promoting highly dubious and unethical methods?

Now then, who has hits whose sore point?

Well, let's look at this objectively. Reporting on companies and individuals can be flawed, that's a given. There are many blcklist sites out there about hosts who should be avoided. I don't see this as a bad thing, however I think you'd agree that in certain cases, the reviews are specific to certain individuals and not necessarily representative of all of the clients.

Point: Chances are that one host will *not* be right for *everyone*. Expectations play a big part of it. 1 day support request responses might work for one person while not for another.

There is however, a need to report on certain hosts who fail to provide services, or refunds, etc., to protect consumers. Some very infamous hosts come to mind. The system set up for this (close as you can really get), is the BBB.

At the same time, I don't think anyone wants hosts to be reamed by certain individuals who either don't pay, spam, upload warez, etc., or take advantage hosts in any way. There are individuals who hop around from host to host spamming, getting shut down, hop, spam, etc. A database of these individuals wouldn't be a bad thing, though just as the bad host databases, it surely won't be fool proof.

Some of this is just a fact of life. As an individual, you are checked against databases all the time. Most often these are credit checks (try to apply for a car/house loan or credit card). But there are others such as, have you ever seen those checks posted at the counter of the grocery? Someone passed a bad check and they blacklisted the person from writing checks. Been evicted? I used to be an apartment manager and we triple checked applicants (checked credit, current address verification w/ ID, and rental history). At the airport they want to expand the traveler's blacklist (where you went, how long you stayed, how often).

If you are concerned about being blacklisted in terms of hosting, you should realize these checks happen in other areas of business and while they are not fool proof (especially your credit report), they are widely used.

Originally posted by Chicken

Some of this is just a fact of life. As an individual, you are checked against databases all the time. Most often these are credit checks (try to apply for a car/house loan or credit card). But there are others such as, have you ever seen those checks posted at the counter of the grocery? Someone passed a bad check and they blacklisted the person from writing checks. Been evicted? I used to be an apartment manager and we triple checked applicants (checked credit, current address verification w/ ID, and rental history). At the airport they want to expand the traveler's blacklist (where you went, how long you stayed, how often).

Chicken,

This is true, but there is one major difference. These are genuine blacklists, by that I mean you would have to have done something wrong to get listed on these. If you are wrongly included then there are usually procedures available to you to redress the matter.

What we are talking about here is a blacklist of people who have done no wrong, broken no law, adhered to the terms of the contract and they are to be blacklisted just because they cancelled their account within the trial period, offerd incidently volutarily by the host. This so the hosts can avoid the ocassional host hopper they might encounter when there are other perfectly legitimate methods to achieve the same result.

Ah, now people are starting to understand how Blacklist are used and created.

most important part of the creation of such a list is the formulation of what and whom could be black-listed.

As we can tell from Dev comments, his fears were that "law-abiding" people would get caught in the middle.

Chicken points out that black list already exisit for bad hosting companies and that there is not a list for bad clients. When I joind the thread I read that the problem was client ( person or company ) whom was host hopping. Therefor a creation of a client side black list run by hosting companies.

The goal of the blacklist is to prevent resource waste. example: Why would you take an account that spam's, and get your hosting company blacklisted by MAPS or one of the other spam blacklisters. Way to high of a risk for me, but for someone else, a spammer might be a worth while account ( maybe they are willing to take the risk if the reward factors are good enough )

Dev brings up another good point:

start quote

What we are talking about here is a blacklist of people who have done no wrong, broken no law, adhered to the terms of the contract and they are to be blacklisted just because they cancelled their account within the trial period, offerd incidently volutarily by the host. This so the hosts can avoid the ocassional host hopper they might encounter when there are other perfectly legitimate methods to achieve the same result.

end quote

the goal of a blacklist organization is to establish terms and conditions that all are willing to participate in. this way if a web host (or resellers) client leaves, they are leaving because of reasons not covered within the TOS.

an example of some conditions are

1) all host and resellers must be monitored via netstat
a very simple but effective way to confirm that members are up, can confirm uptimes and can be used in dispute resolution.

2) all blacklisted clients must have the following information
a) web site name
b) party that registered and paid for the web site
c) location of registered party ( address ciity state )
d) reasons for blacklisting ( spammer, wares, pay issues, .... )
e) blacklisters contact information ( this way there is a route of confirmation )
f) date of black listing
g) date of de-blacklisting ( maybe there was a dispute and the client left without payment but came a month later to pay up )

3) all host (and resellers) have basic standard terms of service for example:
sites that violate the TOS are : spammers ( defined as not using double opt in rules ), Wares sites ( defined as sites that provide serial numbers of software, or cracking codes for software, Copyright infringement sites ( defined as MP3 sites that do not have the proper paperwork on file, covering those right's )

now notice that I did not cover Porn. Porn within it-self has certain rules ( over 18 in the USA is one that I know ), there might have to be specific rules above the basics for the blacklisting of a porn site. ( call it the porn site rules )

What the blacklist ends up to be is a small ( I would hope large ) organisation of host and resellers, that have defined self policing policies, with guild lines on how those policies should be created. And the "Blacklist Org" would have ready made terms and conditions for use by the general hosting community.

-Michael

P.S. - Dev said "Now then, who has hits whose sore point" I say, counter stroke, twist, thrust, block.

I just received a chargeback today from the bank with no reason given by the client or bank. It was also an adult site, that signed up 2 months ago.

I am :angry:

sqposter, you still apear to be missing the point. Nowhere in your 'blacklist terms' does it say when a user can be added to the list. Unless there are very specific rules for that, and rules about notifying the person (to the best of a host's ability) when they are blacklisted, you better hope the list stays secret or no one will use any host that has any part of it.

Tubedogg, This was a mind exercise. I have not been asked to start one. If I was asked, I would model it after my old shipping industry. With rules and regulation. Hell the black list would be the last thing created.

Sqposter / Michael

Originally posted by sqposter
Tubedogg, This was a mind exercise. I have not been asked to start one. If I was asked, I would model it after my old shipping industry. With rules and regulation. Hell the black list would be the last thing created.

Sqposter / Michael

Hi Michael,

I just wanted to know what you mean by 'my old shipping industry'? :) (Im just kinda curious)

Originally posted by Jonah


Hi Michael,

I just wanted to know what you mean by 'my old shipping industry'? :) (Im just kinda curious)

Long long time ago ... I was a ship, cargo, air and container broker back in the day ( less than 2 years ago ) when a persons handshake was all that mattered, Clients would negociate for a good to excelent rate without going around you (placing their cargo with 3 or more parties just to shop it instead of the normal 2 brokers ), and there was an understood rule of the "game".

some of the rules that were used:

standard contracts,
term of service,
codes of conduct,
right of arbitration ( reduces legal fees ),
confirmed counter parties.
confirmation of business standards ( ISO-9000 or 7000 I forgot )
confirmation of commitment, (bonding ) it was to make sure that you would not run away with the clients money ( sometimes we held 1,000,000 up to 8,000,000 for 2 or 3 days in our accounts before paying the ship owners )
Confirmation of your facilities.

For example, terms of service within the hosting community, I have found these 3 types, they seem to be the basics (root) of all definable service levels within the community for when someone picks up the phone on the other side to solve a client problem.

1) 24/7/365
2) 24/7 (monday - friday )
3) business hours ( monday to friday and saturday)

If there was a "hosting association" then we could have known understanding to these terms IE : 24/7/365 = by the 5th rings the phone is picked up, no matter when ...

this could help us ( the hosting community) to redefine the pricing structure to cover more cost and keep the margins as thick as possible. Could you imagine someone trying to comply within the association to 24 / 7 /365 and have the famous word "unlimited"

Also a proper designed association will have certain leverage over vendors.

for example: currently there are many types of T-1 contracts avalible in New Jersey all for the same service ... 1.45 to the NOC, I would love to see some basic standards within each contract for all the different providers in NJ.

-Sqposter / Michael

Just a suggestion... Maybe have a database that is setup like:

1) Domain - Use a domain because not many people would go around buying domains every 30 days.
2) Strike 1 - Record the date and host. Remove them from the black list if they are at the same host for a year or some set amount of time.
3) Strike 2 - Record the date and host. Remove them from the black list if they are at the same host for a year or some set amount of time.
4) Strike 3 - Record the date and host and do not allow a sign up from this person.
(add anything that you think will be important)

Not sure if this was already suggested because I don't have a lot of time to read every post. Basically use a 3 strikes rule but remove strikes after a set amount of time.

Just thought I'd add another angle... just as your credit report shows the bad *and* the good, a database could be set up to as a reporting tool good and bad. As I said, these databases are *not* perfect, they contain errors (I'm talking about credit reports specifically), and getting the errors rectified is a pain in the donkey, but just something to think about...

Some hosts around here have gotten the same spammer and it would be interesting to attempt to create a database of these people to lessen the chance that six WHT hosts get reamed as certain people pass from one to another.

Maybe it could be worked out, maybe not...

Some hosts around here have gotten the same spammer and it would be interesting to attempt to create a database of these people to lessen the chance that six WHT hosts get reamed as certain people pass from one to another.

I like that idea:D It would be one almighty task for whoever set it up, but certainly a worthwhile one !

Eladesor.

From a simple post, too a great defined problem we have all worked together for something that we all need.

A decent SPAMMER list. easy group to target and filter. But before the creatation of such a list, I would think that all members willing to donate names of "spammers" should have the TOS that prevent spammers written out.

WHY :
this way the legal department of the "spammer" can not hit the hosting companies. your TOS should have clear rules about spam and how a person will get tossed if they don't abide by it.

So now the next question, Would someone care to define a spammer. and the terms and conditions of a how bulk e-mail should be sent.

here is my notion of "it's not spam" a double opt-in mailing list with an effective removal system would.

"fraud related to adult hosting" how all this is "related to" adult hosting (in general - as said in the thread title) is beyond me

this would be related to the fraud part...

Walter is a goose
his server is crap
he offers 15gigs trial
then he tries to bill you for it
If that is not the end for him he comes here crying about it
Get a life walter
Why bring disripute to this forum
Asswipe

Jack, it's fine to hear from you, but no need to get personal. I haven't named you in this thread and this will be my last reply to this thread.
I offered you a generous 15GB trial, you got an email after using 10 GB and after 15 GB to decide if you want to stay. You emailed me that the server is fast and that you wanted to stay. I sent you a bill which you didn't pay. First you used some excuses like payment link doesn't work, we then even setup your own personal billing page (!) which of course you never used. You consumed 43 GB traffic until we terminated your account.
That's called fraud. But never mind, we are already dealing with it.