"There is no reason to present evidence against Bin Laden. We know that he is guilty, and that is all we need."
-- George Bush

lol, does he know what would happen if a lawyer said that in court?

So glad I'm not anAmerican. *mouthless smilie*

Originally posted by rewdog
lol, does he know what would happen if a lawyer said that in court?

Needless to say, it would be a quick trial ;)

McCarthy does come to mind... as do the Salem witch trials... :)

But, you have to consider the fact that getting evidence of Bin Laden would be next to impossible.

They have the evidence. It's HOW they got the evidence that they want to keep secret. Beside, we all know the Taliban knew exactly what Ladin was, is, and has been doing. Asking for proof is only to buy time. I have a sneaky feeling that this war on Ladin and the Taliban also includes the war on drugs..

Originally posted by Webdude
I have a sneaky feeling that this war on Ladin and the Taliban also includes the war on drugs..
You are kinda right, we have been fighting drug manufacturers there...but the weird thing is, we are supporting the Northern Alliance, who manufactures the majority of the drugs that come out of Afghanistan...

plus the media a few months ago was all giving taleban mad props for GETTIND RID OF ALL THE OPIUM CROPS a few months ago, they were praisd by America and other countreis for getting rid of the drug fileds and stuff totalluy, and this was a main source of income for the country but the taleban view in their religous belifs that drugs are forbidden so they did it :-)

another inteeresting point is if you ask the right ppl in afghanistan who have been there for a lof of the time they will gladly share with yo,u that the taleban who is trying to establish religous law, while they might have strict laws and all esp on women, the norhtern alliance is where the rapers, and thieves were. Sure talben has some mad strict laws, in their interpretation of their religon, but the Norhtern Alliance are the ones with the rapists, etc. The country estalised stict law on women cause during the time of war there livees were imn danger,...

But hey after the country is destoyed through civil war, 10 years from now our president will tell us hey guess what norhtern aliance were the bad guys, they are a buch of murders, gang bangerz as well, and then we can go again and try to establich democracy in a country that wants islamic law, u got to love the usa, doing its best to serve humanity

I don't see anything wrong with that statement. We have the evidence, our allies have seen the evidence, but we cannot show the enemy. If we did that would most likely reveal how we got it. We aren't just picking out someone we don't like and blaming them. Only reason they would ask for the evidence is to try and make us look bad, like we can't prove it.

The FBI tried that argument (at least) once before: They supplied evidence against a mobster and tried to refuse to tell the court how they got the evidence. The court, quite rightly, insisted that in order for the evidence to be admitted to the court the FBI had to disclose how it was gathered. (Answer: through a keylogger.)

If this war is all about justice, why don't the rules which are used in judicial proceedings throughout the western world apply?

Nods all around. Patriotism is starting to blind us to the true ideals that are under attack here. I like to say "I'm proud of America, but I'm not proud to be an American." Because it was just luck that I was born here.

Were those two statements totally unconnected or is it just me? Sorry. :p

well I say Bush lead on us and I will support you, because we must have this done,

Salem Witch Trials, ummm no, because I can say I feel that we are not blaming Joe Blo for being a terriorist....and thats what the play was based on by Author Miller, or I should say Maccarthism...

but then again, you may be right because you could offer no evidense that you were guilty or innocent so good point

If memory serves me correct, bin Laden has already been indicted in US Court for the embassy bombings in Africa. As such, legally, there's no need to present evidence regarding the WTC bombings in order to extradite him, since he's already wanted for previous crimes.

then they should go after him (usama) for that, the fact that 300 ppl have died already in afghanistan (as of a few days ago maybe higher now)cause of onee man is ridiculous, how would we like it if some country who was stronger then us bombud us and killeed american citiizns to try and kill one of our political leaders if anything it would not end any terroism, we would retaliate and we would \be runnign aroundf in circles, with the stronger country wining and the leesser country being torwn apart by civl war, crimes, et disasteroue ecionpnmy

In this country, it is a crime to harbor fugitives. If Uncle Billy shoots a few people then knocks on the door and you think it'll be a grand idea to hide him in the closet, you'll find out that it wasn't all that brilliant at 2 a.m. when you are woken up by your door being kicked in and looking down the barrel of a weapon.

When 6,000 people are killed on a Tuesday morning, and you don't think it is particularly important to at least attempt to cooperate, hand over the prime suspect for trial, etc., then don't whine when you find your door kicked in at 2 a.m.

Sorry, but this isn't the first bombing linked to this person, and while I am saddened that we cannot affect only the people responsible, it seems to be a characteristic of war and terrorism.

Originally posted by Planet Z
If memory serves me correct, bin Laden has already been indicted in US Court for the embassy bombings in Africa. As such, legally, there's no need to present evidence regarding the WTC bombings in order to extradite him, since he's already wanted for previous crimes.

Um. Can you name even one country in the world which will extradite someone without being shown evidence of that person's guilt? I certainly can't. Every time the US wants someone who is in Canada, they fill out a variety of paperwork, the canadian government arrests the person, and then that person is put on trial in Canada -- it's called "extradition court" I think -- and the US has to present their evidence. If the US can't convince the Canadian court of this person's guilt, then Canada doesn't extradite them.

Originally posted by Chicken
In this country, it is a crime to harbor fugitives. If Uncle Billy shoots a few people then knocks on the door and you think it'll be a grand idea to hide him in the closet, you'll find out that it wasn't all that brilliant at 2 a.m. when you are woken up by your door being kicked in and looking down the barrel of a weapon.

I'm afraid this isn't your country -- international law applies here.

But let us suppose for the moment that the entire world were governed by constitution and supreme court rulings which dictate the terms of extradition between US states (interstate rendition). You might be interested to know that even under the US constitution bin Laden could not be extradited, since he was not in the US when the alleged crime took place. (see 188 U.S. 691 (1903))

Now don't think that I'm arguing for bin Laden to escape justice; all I want to point out here is that there is no law governing such cases, and the Taliban are, legally speaking, perfectly justified in their actions.

This is a perfect example of why the world needs an international criminal court with UN-sanctioned global authority which would have the legal authority to demand the extradition of anyone from any nation in order to try them for major crimes (crimes against humanity, genocide, torture, violation of the Geneva conventions, etc.). A court which, incidentally, would probably exist by now if the US hadn't blocked its creation.

plus id likee to say, that...

the ppl who did this and most muslims highly doubt it had anything to do with usama ibn laden, (he speaks a lot if he did it, he would have admitted to it)..

one proof i think is clear that he did not do it for me at leeast is that he said, I did not do it, but i think what happened is good, if hewas trying to hide and soy he did not do it, hee wold have said what happend was wrong, etc. but no he really doees think what happend was good..

thas just me though :-) and i respeet the decision of alll the ppl who have not seenm the evidences to say he did it, cause of coruse there is no real such thing as innocent until proven guoi;lty but here is my dileemma...

us bombs iraq, us pisses of most muslims in most muyslim countires that dont livee in america, great PR, huh, so u got a couplee of hundred million ppl that hate u for bomin ira qnd u havee many millions of muslims that hate ameircans troops being in sauidia arbia, so ur creatun unrest, so what if the ruleers of saudiaa rbaia gave pemirsssion, does america like knoiwit their presecne is creating a lot of conflcint in the country does ameircn care? anwyays who carees, but, 6000 ppl killeed in america was not just done for no reason, someone in some cotunry obviously thought the only wauy to geet american to change some of its foreign policy or whatver their goals was to make a huge stament and they surely did, and when more innocent ppl are gonig to die, the terroism wont stop dude, it wil ojnly increase sure killing ppl seems like an easy solution :-) but eeducation is more powerful, hitler came to power by first teahcin is bs ideas,, and guess wot it worked now if hitleer had just comee and forced his way in no one would havee liked him even if he was in power, ameerica is gfoing to bomb afghianstan make the onrthern alliane (who deo sell drugs, rape, etc.) fight taleban country wil be destoryees 10 years down the road u have a country that hates ur guts? and the terrosm begins again

but its coo, the goals is to weaken the country so much they wil neveer do this again and estbalish some kind o internationw atch, of course, the rest of the world will love wjhat is happeing and no more terroism wil eveer hapen again (yah right). if kiling innocet ppl is thee only way we have left to esbalish justice, then mayee this so called justice is what we have rto re-evaluate

If bin laden was in the uk we wouldnt be able to extradite him to the states because they have the death penalty.

lol but what this mysterious eevidecnne is even thoght tony blair put it out in a paper his own country ploiticans rejeected it saying its not much and the meedia in his own coutnry tore his paper apart, saying it was nothig but a summary opf what was already available top the public lol but wow, its beery comfiroint to know we could not get usama from al these places yet very inteeresting how we can just bomb a 3rd world countrry and get a civol war starteed :-) cause we all know the norhtern alliancew who controls only 5% of a country if we putthem up agains taleban and supply them with help oh wow, we got aanothe civil war, Hey but letsthank america mr. help to humanity who came to solve your daily humanitarian neeeds..


can anyoneee tell i dont care too much for the us gov't and its mtholdogly? sure it has its beneefits, its god to have ppl lving in bliee its good for teaching tis good that ppl are not coming here tryoni to kil us all the time, etc.

but is our fredom worth the misuse of natural resources in afraice and exploitation of labour in oher 3rd world countires, and basically the lowest level of rights of other ppl just for our own freedom?

250,000 japanes civilains life are ok to take for our freedom :-)

but hey why should i complain, im lucky god gave me birth in america :) so im usa citizen... of course,,, god would never test me or anything like that lol, im sure god just jhates the lil kid in iraq who was not an american citizen but had his eye blows off by a us bomb shell, or maybe? maybe god loevs that kid more and wil bless him with paradise but maybe since i was sileent and let my goveremtn go doit and neeevr eveern felt any pity, maybe im the evil person here and maybe god will tell me all hee did for me on earth and how i just sat there thinking id never bee aksed about how i spent my health, my time, and my life.

Rage against the Machinee=-= "if ignorance is bliss, then wipe this fu* smilke off my face"

Originally posted by sasjamal
then they should go after him (usama) for that, the fact that 300 ppl have died already in afghanistan (as of a few days ago maybe higher now)cause of onee man is ridiculous, [clip]
So you blindly believe the Taliban reports of the number of deaths, and that they are all innocent civilians, and that they were not killed by the Taliban themselves?

Talk about gullible.

One of the more interesting late-night reviews I watched was a munitions specialist talking about the rubble left over in a mud-brick home that was supposedly hit by a cruise missle. The Taliban supplied footage was of a number of people moving around the remains of a mud-brick building, kicking around bricks and picking through the rubble. He stated - though I paraphrase:

This is the type of damage typical of a morter round. A cruise missle hit would have left a crater roughly 30x30 meters where the mud brick home stood. There would be no rubble to stand in and kick around.

If you blindly believe the propoganda sent out by the Taliban, you will never believe the truth in this war.

-t

likee i said 300 was the wrong numbr to report, cause its not confirmeed yeet, the un has only reported about 100 to my konwldge and other meeda hasv rported the masjid being attacked, I took back the number 300. since it was reported only taleban :-) needleess to say its A-OK, to me its no difference as to weather its 100, or 300 an innocent life an an innocent life, and if taleban startd to kil their own ppl trst me :-) the communist leeft over haters of religous law reporters that are theere would havee reported it asap :-) who do u think usually reports the "abuse" or the inhumane tratment of ppl over there? not the pro taleban ppl the media there that dos not liike their law, and yes they do exist, suprsiingly enough there are reporteres there that write thigns against taleban woo hooooo...

who cares though the russians planteed minees all oveer the country every dayt 40 or so ppl die (lots of them kids) or get maimed cause of all the mimes all oveer the country cause of the stupid russians, may god give them whayt they deserve...

Pe@ce

Originally posted by sasjamal
[clip]if taleban startd to kil their own ppl trst me :-) the communist leeft over haters of religous law reporters that are theere would havee reported it asap :-) [clip]
The Taliban have been killing their own people since they seized power in 1994. This is nothing new. If you think they will not kill their own people in order to wage a propaganda war, you are sadly mistaken.

It's too bad that some innocent people will die as a result of the Taliban's not turning over Ossama bin Laden and his terrorist network to the U.S. They were able to avoid all of this painful military action, and were given ample opportunity to do so. The hubris they showed with their response, tells me that they had no feeling for the innocent people of Afghanistan at all.

I'm sorry, but I don't feel any blame for the deaths in Afghanistan. The Taliban are in full control of the end of this action. They are in control still, yet do nothing but posture and spread lies and words of hate. Turn over bin Laden and his network, destroy the terrorist camps, turn over the foreign aid workers being held for practicing Christianity, and the U.S. will stop the bombing. They know the demands. They choose not to protect their people - they choose to harbor bin Laden - who is by all accounts the actual leader of the Taliban, and not their guest as they have lied about in the past.

-t

Originally posted by cperciva
Re: McCarthy would be proud...

The title of this thread misses entirely the tennor of the McCarthy era.

If we were practicing the methods of that era, all Arab nationals and Arab Americans would have been detained or deported by now.

The American IS card would have been deployed, and all of our homes would have been searched, with random arrests the norm.

What has transpired in the U.S. as a result of this terrorism is calm and thorough police work and investigation, with the result that some terrorists have likely gotten away - even after being interviewed or detained.

Liberty and freedom in this country has not been compromised by the government, and it will not be. We go so far as to extend the rights granted citizens of this country by the Constitution to non-citizens. Very few, if any, countries in the world do the same.

I am proud to be an American, as we struggle through this difficult time, apparently hated by much of the world. Be thankful that we care enough to stay involved, as you would not be happy with a world that did not have the U.S. as a stabilizing force.

-t

thewitt, I'm not arguing that the US has returned to McCarthyism -- rather, that the US is trying to impose McCarthyism on the rest of the world.

Compare

"I have a list of terrorists. I will not show you my evidence, but I know that these people are terrorists. Arrest them and hand them over, or we will consider you to be supporting terrorism."

to

"I have here a list of communists active in the United States of America. I will not present evidence against these people, but they must be stopped. Anyone who helps these people is also a communist."

Except the demand was not made in an information vacuum.

The more accurate statement would have been:

"We have a list of terrorists who were involved in the bombing of the World Trade Center and the loss of more than 5000 innocent civilian lives. The UN, NATO and leading Islamic leaders have reviewed our evidence and agreed with us that these criminals, who have declared war against our country - are guilty. Turn them over now or suffer the consequences. This is war. There will be no negotiation."

Now the Taliban did not ever intend to review the evidence. They are run by bin Laden, and would have stalled either way. Their tactics have never been honorable, and there is no reason to show them the evidence - it would have no impact on the decision to turn over bin Laden, and would only compromise the intelligence that will indeed lead to more of the terrorist network's destruction.

If you recall, the Taliban began their refusal to turn over bin Laden before we even demanded it - stating up front that they did not believe him capable of organizing any such activities while he was under their protection and isolation from the outside world. They clearly lied when they stated that he had no contact whatsoever with the outside world while they held him.

They then went on to say they would not turn him over regardless of the evidence presented against him. This again, before we even demanded he be turned over.

Only when it looked like they were going to get blasted back to the stone age, did they try to stall with the statement that they would need to review the evidence before they would agree to try him themselves if the evidence was convincing. They would have only stalled for more time - allowing bin Laden to get out of the country as certianly was his plan.

Their later demand to review the evidence and if they believed him guilty they would turn him over to another Islamic nation was also a lie and a stall. There is no way they would let him leave under any sort of guard - remember, he runs the Taliban.

No, the Taliban are not honorable, and have not behaved honorably since the beginning.

The evidence against bin Laden has been shared with the world court, and he has been found to be culpable in the terrorist attacks that took the lives of thousands of innocent civilians and caused immeasurable damage to the world economy. The fact that you or I or even the Taliban have not been shown the evidence, does not equate to McCarthyism.

-t

Originally posted by thewitt
The UN, NATO and leading Islamic leaders have reviewed our evidence and agreed with us that these criminals, who have declared war against our country - are guilty.

Unfortunately, this is not the case. The evidence against Bin Laden has never been put before the UN general assembly, the UN security council, or the NATO council. These three groups have all condemned the attacks and reaffirmed the right of the US to take "appropriate measures" in "self defence", but none of them have judged Bin Laden specifically to be guilty.

In order to obtain the support of the world for their actions, the US government must present its evidence, and put Bin Laden on trial before an international court.

Originally posted by cperciva
The evidence against Bin Laden has never been put before the UN general assembly, the UN security council, or the NATO council.
The U.S. briefed the NATO council on 10/02/01. Please read this article titled, "NATO: US evidence "compelling."
www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/10/02/inv.nato.if/index.html

Originally posted by JustLurkin77

The U.S. briefed the NATO council on 10/02/01. Please read this article titled, "NATO: US evidence "compelling."


You're quite right. I'm sorry; I was out of contact with the world at the time (thanks to Oxford's ethernet rollout running behind schedule) and didn't see that story.

Still, the US has not presented its evidence to any qualified judicial body.

With afraid to be flamed. I want to post something like I found today.

If still you are horrified by the scenes of NY,
Do a MINUTE of silence in tribute to almost the 10,000 Americans, the majority civil, died cowardly by terrorists who not yet know themselves who are.
- Since you are in silence, do other THIRTEEN MINUTES in tribute to the 130,000 died Iraqian civilians in 1991 by order Bush father.
It takes advantage of to remember that in that occasion the Americans also made celebration, as Palestinian for days...
now more the TWENTY MINUTES by the 200,000 Iranians died by the Iraqians with provided arms and money to Hussein (still young at that time) by such American that later turned all their artillery against them...
Other FIFTEEN MINUTES by the died Russians and 150,000 afghans into the hands of the Taliban, also with arms and you order of the USA, that created his organizacion and they trained it with the company...
More TEN MINUTES by 100,000 Japanese deads direct and indirectly in Hiroshima and Nagazaki, also by direct action of the great Eagle... If you did it, you were already in silence ONE HOUR (a MINUTE by all Americans and FIFTY and NINE by ALL its victims...)
If still you are perplex, you do one more hour by deads in the war of Vietnam, which nonpleasant to mention for the Americans... Hopefully (although the index of bellicosity of the Americans indicate the opposite), somebody remembers the bombing from the USA to Bagdad where died 18 thousand people, somebody saw it in the Cnn? or algun channel of the world?
Somebody asked justice? or worse even revenge? we requested because the Americans begin to understand that they also are vulnerable and who the tragedies that they cause are so Barbarian and cowardly as those of the others.
The DEADS of other towns hurt so much as those of them...

If still you are horrified by the scenes of NY,
etc.


I'm surprised the author didn't mention central america. If you're going to complain about any part of US history at this point, it should be the CIA's history of backing known terrorist groups.

Well as you can see, I live in Argentina, and I know of first hand all the horror histories in south america.
Only in argentina 30.000 dead people for dictatorships imposed for the freedom's defenders:rolleyes:

Lets do 100 minutes for WWI deaths

Fighters
Russians 1,700,000
French 1,357,000
British 908,000
German 1,800,000
Austrians 1,200,000
Turks 325,000
Americans 130,000

Died of disease, hunger and other war 20,000,000 civilians


Another 200 minutes for WWII

Russians 3,500,000 Fighters 22,000,000 civilians
German 1,200,000 Fighters 6,000,000 Jews
Japanese 2,200,00 Fighters
Britian France 100,000's

Total 38,000,000

Sort of puts the A-Bomb decision in perspective.