jic
02-07-2004, 10:18 AM
Well, this didn't suprise me in the least. But here is the new scam hotmail.com is running. Basically they have some type of "filtering" system and if x number of emails gets reported then the entire class C gets blacklisted.... BUT there is a way to get off. They will allow you to use bondedsender.com which is extremely expensive if you have multiple boxes with multiple class C's. The sad part of it all is that its not spam from us, its totally opt-in emails from a professional football team (just a newsletter to the fans of the football team). Def. not what anyone would consider spam.
Here is the email, i have hidden ip's & email addresses.
Hello Julie,
Typically when a service provider suggests that emails are being blocked
due to spam concerns an explanation of the specific problem as well as
suggestions for a resolution are provided. While I understand (and did
not ever claim) that Microsoft has no obligation to deliver email
messages from my customers, I also recognize that it is mutually
beneficial for spam complaints (and problems) to be addressed and
resolved. Am I to understand from the tone and content of your response
that Microsoft (MSN/Hotmail) is unwilling to provide any such assistance
or information to legitimate businesses?
While I appreciate the information regarding the Bonded Sender Program -
I am not interested in persuing a third-party solution to the problem.
I would like to address the problem at its source, and its source is the
MSN/Hotmail spam filters.
Thanks,
Adam Stanley
Nethosters, Inc.
Julie Harty wrote:
> Hello Adam--
>
> Thank you for contacting MSN Hotmail. With the help of the detailed troubleshooting information you have provided, we have determined that the message in question, from reptile-classifieds.com, has been blocked by an MSN Hotmail filter deployed to stop unsolicited e-mail. Like many other e-mail service providers, MSN Hotmail uses filtering methods to stop unsolicited e-mail. Consumers have told us that stopping unsolicited e-mail is a top priority and because our #1 goal is pleasing our customers, we are employing technology that helps protect them from unsolicited e-mail
>
> While we understand that it is important to you that you be able to send e-mail to users of the Hotmail service, Microsoft does not have an obligation to deliver any particular e-mail message.
>
> Bonded Sender Program
>
> Microsoft is currently evaluating the Bonded Sender Program (http://www.bondedsender.com), which is administered by an independent third party and provides a mechanism for senders of legitimate e-mail to better identify themselves. During this evaluation, Microsoft is using the output from the Bonded Sender Program to help determine which e-mail should be delivered, and it is expected that most e-mail senders that are certified by the Bonded Sender Program will see their e-mail delivered to MSN Hotmail users without issue. However, an e-mail sender's participation in the Bonded Sender Program does not guarantee that e-mail from that sender will be delivered to MSN Hotmail users; e-mail from such senders may still be filtered or otherwise blocked at Microsoft's sole discretion. Microsoft does not: (i) operate the Bonded Sender Program, (ii) determine which e-mail senders become certified in the Bonded Sender Program, or (iii) offer any support at all related to the Bonde
d Sender Program. Microsoft may discontinue use of the Bonded Sender Program at any time, without notice to MSN Hotmail users or e-mail senders. Microsoft reserves the right to not deliver any e-mail message sent to any MSN Hotmail user for any reason.
>
> More Information
>
> For more information regarding Microsoft's Anti-Spam Policy, including technical standards and required documentation, see:
>
> http://privacy.msn.com/anti-spam/
>
> http://advertising.msn.com/adproducts/Email_TechStd.asp
>
> http://advertising.msn.com/adproducts/Email_BulkDupe.asp
>
> For more information regarding the Terms of Use for Microsoft's MSN Hotmail service, see http://privacy.msn.com/tou/.
>
> Microsoft operates its proprietary computers and computer networks, its e-mail services, MSN, MSN Hotmail, MSN Internet Access, MSN TV, and other related Web sites and Web pages (collectively, the "MSN Services") for the personal and non-commercial use of its members and customers. Use of the MSN Services is governed by specific Terms of Use and Notices associated with each of the MSN Services.
>
> Microsoft prohibits the use of the MSN Services in any manner associated with the transmission, distribution or delivery of any unsolicited bulk or unsolicited commercial e-mail ("Spam"). You may not use any MSN services to send Spam. You also many not deliver Spam or cause Spam to be delivered to any of Microsoft's MSN Services or MSN customers.
>
> Microsoft maintains computer equipment in Washington and California (among other states), and unauthorized use of the MSN Services will lead to use of equipment in these states. Unauthorized use of the MSN Services in connection with the transmission of unsolicited e-mail, including the transmission of e-mail in violation of this policy, may result in civil and criminal penalties against the sender and those assisting the sender, including those provided by the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (18 U.S.C. §1030, et seq.); the Washington Unsolicited Electronic Mail Act (R.C.W. 19.190.010, et seq.); and California Business & Professions Code §17538.45 and other state and federal laws.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Julie, MSN Hotmail support
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adam Stanley [mailto:]
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 4:04 PM
> To: Julie Harty
> Subject: Re: missing hotmail emails
>
> Julie,
>
> I apologize - I sent both emails from my personal email account (on a
> seperate server). I have just resent them from an account hosted on the
> mail server in question. They will be coming from the email address
> 'blah@blah.com'
>
> Thanks!
>
> Adam Stanley
> Nethosters, Inc.
>
> Julie Harty wrote:
>
>
Hey Adam--
I received both messages in my account, which doesn't seem to indicate a
problem. It may be that he needs to send me those mails directly. But
right now, I'm not seeing an issue.
Sincerely,
Julie, MSN Hotmail
-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Stanley [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 2:10 PM
To: Julie Harty
Subject: Re: missing hotmail emails
Julie,
Thank you for your quick response to my inquiry. I'll answer all the
questions as best I can.
>1) What is the IP address of your mail server?
The address I first received a complaint about was 21x.x.xx.170,
however, after some more testing it appears the entire subnet is unable
to deliver emails to hotmail. Some other IP's I tested from are:
21x.x.xx.174 and 216.x.xx.142
>2) What kind of bounce-back messages do users get?
Neither my users nor myself have received any bounce-back messages. The
emails appear to be accepted for delivery by hotmail's SMTP servers. I
attempted to send a test message manually (by telnetting into
mx1.hotmail.com on port 25 and issuing SMTP commands directly). Here is
the response from the server after the ending '.':
250 <MC11-F15wR8edgEktFO00048c6d@mc11-f15.hotmail.com> Queued mail for
delivery
>3) Do your SMTP logs show any failed transactions? If so, could you
>please include them inline in your response.
Here is an example of our server logfiles when sending to hotmail:
2004-02-05 16:54:49 1AorSS-0005vg-VB <=
H=
P=esmtp X=TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128 S=675
id=
2004-02-05 16:54:49 1AorSS-0005vg-VB => TEST@hotmail.com R=lookuphost
T=remote_smtp H=mx4.hotmail.com [65.54.167.230]
2004-02-05 16:54:49 1AorSS-0005vg-VB Completed
>4) Can you telnet to port 25 of mx1.hotmail.com from your mail server?
>How about mx2, mx3, or mx4?
I was able to successfully telnet to all 4 of those hostnames. Each
displayed a standard SMTP greeting followed by Microsoft ESMTP MAIL
Service, Version: 5.0.2195.6824
>5) Can you traceroute to 216.32.183.201 from your mail server?
I am able to traceroute to that IP. Here are the last few hops:
12 pos3-0.core2.sea1.us.msn.net (207.46.33.134) 94.369 ms 95.604 ms
93.535 ms
13 pos6-1.paix-osr-b.us.msn.net (207.46.37.14) 92.584 ms 92.362 ms
91.801 ms
14 pos5-0.law3-gsr-a.us.msn.net (64.4.63.101) 90.881 ms 89.718 ms
90.144 ms
15 netops.hotmail.com (216.32.183.201) 92.763 ms 89.406 ms 91.327 ms
>6) What OS and MTA are you using on your mail server?
The server in question is RedHat linux with Exim as the MTA. The other
IP's I listed earlier are also RedHat linux but are using QMail as the
MTA.
>7) What are some of the accounts that you are sending to?
I have personally only tested submitting to a personal hotmail account
'TEST@hotmail.com', but one of our level 1 technicians noted that he
also tried his personal account, and the customer who complained
mentioned that he had tried several accounts.
8) Also, please send an example of a typical mail sent from your
system
>to two accounts, TEST@hotmail.com and
TEST@hotmail.com.
The customer who originally complained about the problem noticed it
while testing a "refer this site to a friend" script on his web site. I
had the script send an email to me, and I in turn sent it to the two
addresses you mentioned.
Thanks again for your quick response, and I appreciate your looking into
the issue. Let me know if you need anything else from me.
Thanks!
Here is the email, i have hidden ip's & email addresses.
Hello Julie,
Typically when a service provider suggests that emails are being blocked
due to spam concerns an explanation of the specific problem as well as
suggestions for a resolution are provided. While I understand (and did
not ever claim) that Microsoft has no obligation to deliver email
messages from my customers, I also recognize that it is mutually
beneficial for spam complaints (and problems) to be addressed and
resolved. Am I to understand from the tone and content of your response
that Microsoft (MSN/Hotmail) is unwilling to provide any such assistance
or information to legitimate businesses?
While I appreciate the information regarding the Bonded Sender Program -
I am not interested in persuing a third-party solution to the problem.
I would like to address the problem at its source, and its source is the
MSN/Hotmail spam filters.
Thanks,
Adam Stanley
Nethosters, Inc.
Julie Harty wrote:
> Hello Adam--
>
> Thank you for contacting MSN Hotmail. With the help of the detailed troubleshooting information you have provided, we have determined that the message in question, from reptile-classifieds.com, has been blocked by an MSN Hotmail filter deployed to stop unsolicited e-mail. Like many other e-mail service providers, MSN Hotmail uses filtering methods to stop unsolicited e-mail. Consumers have told us that stopping unsolicited e-mail is a top priority and because our #1 goal is pleasing our customers, we are employing technology that helps protect them from unsolicited e-mail
>
> While we understand that it is important to you that you be able to send e-mail to users of the Hotmail service, Microsoft does not have an obligation to deliver any particular e-mail message.
>
> Bonded Sender Program
>
> Microsoft is currently evaluating the Bonded Sender Program (http://www.bondedsender.com), which is administered by an independent third party and provides a mechanism for senders of legitimate e-mail to better identify themselves. During this evaluation, Microsoft is using the output from the Bonded Sender Program to help determine which e-mail should be delivered, and it is expected that most e-mail senders that are certified by the Bonded Sender Program will see their e-mail delivered to MSN Hotmail users without issue. However, an e-mail sender's participation in the Bonded Sender Program does not guarantee that e-mail from that sender will be delivered to MSN Hotmail users; e-mail from such senders may still be filtered or otherwise blocked at Microsoft's sole discretion. Microsoft does not: (i) operate the Bonded Sender Program, (ii) determine which e-mail senders become certified in the Bonded Sender Program, or (iii) offer any support at all related to the Bonde
d Sender Program. Microsoft may discontinue use of the Bonded Sender Program at any time, without notice to MSN Hotmail users or e-mail senders. Microsoft reserves the right to not deliver any e-mail message sent to any MSN Hotmail user for any reason.
>
> More Information
>
> For more information regarding Microsoft's Anti-Spam Policy, including technical standards and required documentation, see:
>
> http://privacy.msn.com/anti-spam/
>
> http://advertising.msn.com/adproducts/Email_TechStd.asp
>
> http://advertising.msn.com/adproducts/Email_BulkDupe.asp
>
> For more information regarding the Terms of Use for Microsoft's MSN Hotmail service, see http://privacy.msn.com/tou/.
>
> Microsoft operates its proprietary computers and computer networks, its e-mail services, MSN, MSN Hotmail, MSN Internet Access, MSN TV, and other related Web sites and Web pages (collectively, the "MSN Services") for the personal and non-commercial use of its members and customers. Use of the MSN Services is governed by specific Terms of Use and Notices associated with each of the MSN Services.
>
> Microsoft prohibits the use of the MSN Services in any manner associated with the transmission, distribution or delivery of any unsolicited bulk or unsolicited commercial e-mail ("Spam"). You may not use any MSN services to send Spam. You also many not deliver Spam or cause Spam to be delivered to any of Microsoft's MSN Services or MSN customers.
>
> Microsoft maintains computer equipment in Washington and California (among other states), and unauthorized use of the MSN Services will lead to use of equipment in these states. Unauthorized use of the MSN Services in connection with the transmission of unsolicited e-mail, including the transmission of e-mail in violation of this policy, may result in civil and criminal penalties against the sender and those assisting the sender, including those provided by the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (18 U.S.C. §1030, et seq.); the Washington Unsolicited Electronic Mail Act (R.C.W. 19.190.010, et seq.); and California Business & Professions Code §17538.45 and other state and federal laws.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Julie, MSN Hotmail support
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adam Stanley [mailto:]
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 4:04 PM
> To: Julie Harty
> Subject: Re: missing hotmail emails
>
> Julie,
>
> I apologize - I sent both emails from my personal email account (on a
> seperate server). I have just resent them from an account hosted on the
> mail server in question. They will be coming from the email address
> 'blah@blah.com'
>
> Thanks!
>
> Adam Stanley
> Nethosters, Inc.
>
> Julie Harty wrote:
>
>
Hey Adam--
I received both messages in my account, which doesn't seem to indicate a
problem. It may be that he needs to send me those mails directly. But
right now, I'm not seeing an issue.
Sincerely,
Julie, MSN Hotmail
-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Stanley [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 2:10 PM
To: Julie Harty
Subject: Re: missing hotmail emails
Julie,
Thank you for your quick response to my inquiry. I'll answer all the
questions as best I can.
>1) What is the IP address of your mail server?
The address I first received a complaint about was 21x.x.xx.170,
however, after some more testing it appears the entire subnet is unable
to deliver emails to hotmail. Some other IP's I tested from are:
21x.x.xx.174 and 216.x.xx.142
>2) What kind of bounce-back messages do users get?
Neither my users nor myself have received any bounce-back messages. The
emails appear to be accepted for delivery by hotmail's SMTP servers. I
attempted to send a test message manually (by telnetting into
mx1.hotmail.com on port 25 and issuing SMTP commands directly). Here is
the response from the server after the ending '.':
250 <MC11-F15wR8edgEktFO00048c6d@mc11-f15.hotmail.com> Queued mail for
delivery
>3) Do your SMTP logs show any failed transactions? If so, could you
>please include them inline in your response.
Here is an example of our server logfiles when sending to hotmail:
2004-02-05 16:54:49 1AorSS-0005vg-VB <=
H=
P=esmtp X=TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128 S=675
id=
2004-02-05 16:54:49 1AorSS-0005vg-VB => TEST@hotmail.com R=lookuphost
T=remote_smtp H=mx4.hotmail.com [65.54.167.230]
2004-02-05 16:54:49 1AorSS-0005vg-VB Completed
>4) Can you telnet to port 25 of mx1.hotmail.com from your mail server?
>How about mx2, mx3, or mx4?
I was able to successfully telnet to all 4 of those hostnames. Each
displayed a standard SMTP greeting followed by Microsoft ESMTP MAIL
Service, Version: 5.0.2195.6824
>5) Can you traceroute to 216.32.183.201 from your mail server?
I am able to traceroute to that IP. Here are the last few hops:
12 pos3-0.core2.sea1.us.msn.net (207.46.33.134) 94.369 ms 95.604 ms
93.535 ms
13 pos6-1.paix-osr-b.us.msn.net (207.46.37.14) 92.584 ms 92.362 ms
91.801 ms
14 pos5-0.law3-gsr-a.us.msn.net (64.4.63.101) 90.881 ms 89.718 ms
90.144 ms
15 netops.hotmail.com (216.32.183.201) 92.763 ms 89.406 ms 91.327 ms
>6) What OS and MTA are you using on your mail server?
The server in question is RedHat linux with Exim as the MTA. The other
IP's I listed earlier are also RedHat linux but are using QMail as the
MTA.
>7) What are some of the accounts that you are sending to?
I have personally only tested submitting to a personal hotmail account
'TEST@hotmail.com', but one of our level 1 technicians noted that he
also tried his personal account, and the customer who complained
mentioned that he had tried several accounts.
8) Also, please send an example of a typical mail sent from your
system
>to two accounts, TEST@hotmail.com and
TEST@hotmail.com.
The customer who originally complained about the problem noticed it
while testing a "refer this site to a friend" script on his web site. I
had the script send an email to me, and I in turn sent it to the two
addresses you mentioned.
Thanks again for your quick response, and I appreciate your looking into
the issue. Let me know if you need anything else from me.
Thanks!