News (CNN) says two Airports destroyed until now :D

And this is good how? ... Do we really want another war?

Originally posted by Technics
And this is good how? ... Do we really want another war?

In this case YES

Originally posted by Technics
And this is good how? ... Do we really want another war?

Terrorists can't be seen to kill innocent people and get away with it....

Hmm what are they going to bomb? Trees or mountains?
There is nothing to bomb there. They don't want to kill civilians nor to destroy their homes. So what will they bomb?

I knew when I woke up this morning and read my news sources one of which is http://paknews.com/main.php?id=1&date1=2001-10-07, that today would be the day.

So as I try to celebrate a traditional holiday (see Thanks thread) my heart would be breaking.

I hope our leaders can act swiftly to come to an agreement to spare anymore innocent victims.

kb

There is no agreement to be reached.

bin Laden and his network of terrorists will not stop until all Americans - indeed all Christians - are dead.

We will not stop until bin Laden's network and everyone who supports it is destroyed.

Tell me again who can make an agreement to end this war?

-t

I think Bin Laden is going after more then just Christians

I also think he hates Jews alot more considering that they live on so he says Islamic Ground.

Overall he wants islamic land free of every outsider

Joe

I don't think Killing Innocent Afgan's is right. If they do end up killing innocent people, that is wrong. They need to act in a percise manner here.
Today i was talking to a man and he said "The U.S Should just Nuke the place!" And that made me upset!:(

Heh, I'm proud to be an American, but many other Americans embaress me. I too have heard many people saying, "We should Nuke Afgahnistan!" and "They killed our innocent people, lets kill theirs!". This is of course totally wrong, but many Americans feel this way. I feel that our president and our government isn't out to nuke Afgahnistan and kill many innocent people, but rather put a stop to terrorism and punish those who are responisible for the acts on 9-11-2001.

Not all Afghans are quite so innocent - when they fought the Soviets, one of their favourite methods of dealing with Soviet prisoners was to skin them alive... yuk

In any war, unfortunately, innocent civilians are killed. War is not a good thing, no matter what. Soldiers killing soldiers is not a good thing. This all goes without saying, but in some cases, things have to happen so that other things don't happen. It won't be good but I believe it is necessary, in this case.

when they fought the Soviets, one of their favourite methods of dealing with Soviet prisoners was to skin them alive... yuk
:puke: :crap: :sickface:
:puke: :crap: :sickface:
:puke: :crap: :sickface:

Every other crisis where Britain has attacked on its own with the US i have supported it like Iraq in 1998. However, this time i believe that mos of you are short sighted in your opinions and actions. We (Britain) should deal with the source of the problem, now most of you would think that it is Bin Laden, well he isn't the source, yes he is a figure head and a leader but not the solution. He has a point when he says there should be peace in Palestine and in my opinion yes ther should be a state. That would stablise the region and radically reduce his support for his cause, also if there was a state, his cause would no longer exist. YOU can't just go and kill Bin Laden, it it possibly the dumbest thing that anybody could do. You are making the man a matyr, then instead of 5,000 people willing to die for a cause but 50,000 or 500,000. This is worse, we can take out the infrastructure of a nation but the people will still be there and in response there will be more attacks.



Thats my opinion.

I'm just wondering how long it'll be before it all hits the fan around here. I really wouldn't be suprised if most of the people we are trying to bomb are already hiding out here in the country just waiting for this event to unfold. I'd say there's very little doubt that there will be more attacks on us. These recent attacks might have just been a warm up.

A leaked CIA projection on attacks against the US after a retalitory strike has been made known. The CIA believe that the chances and success of an attack that would be equal to the September 11th attack are at 100%

The report that i believe was leaked to the Washington Post also stated that it is almost certain that there are multiple cells that are active in US major cities. There plans could already be in motion. Another side effect of making him a matyr.

Originally posted by Nick Worby
Every other crisis where Britain has attacked on its own with the US i have supported it like Iraq in 1998. However, this time i believe that mos of you are short sighted in your opinions and actions. We (Britain) should deal with the source of the problem, now most of you would think that it is Bin Laden, well he isn't the source, yes he is a figure head and a leader but not the solution. He has a point when he says there should be peace in Palestine and in my opinion yes ther should be a state. That would stablise the region and radically reduce his support for his cause, also if there was a state, his cause would no longer exist. YOU can't just go and kill Bin Laden, it it possibly the dumbest thing that anybody could do. You are making the man a matyr, then instead of 5,000 people willing to die for a cause but 50,000 or 500,000. This is worse, we can take out the infrastructure of a nation but the people will still be there and in response there will be more attacks.



Thats my opinion. What is the solution then??
Let terrorism go unfettered?
It isn't a war on Bin Laden. It's a war on terrorism.
He is just the first step. We gotta start somewhere.

Originally posted by Nick Worby
A leaked CIA projection on attacks against the US after a retalitory strike has been made known. . . . . . .And you heard/read this where??

Do you actually believe that by killing Bin Laden it will help the situation?? Are you that naive. To his followers it isnt terrorism, it is a war that they live every day. These things are realative. My solution has been made in my first response. Yes he must be punished but killing him will not achieve anything except make things worse. You as a nation will most likely live that reality within hours. His face is inprinted on thousands of Men, Women and children, you can't and wont't be able to kill them all.

SKY NEWS, where did you think?

Originally posted by Nick Worby
. . . . .Are you that naive. . . . . . .I suppose I am then.

I bow to your superior intelligence.

Originally posted by Nick Worby
SKY NEWS, where did you think? Clouds, tea leaves, tarot cards, . . . . . . .:rolleyes:

Many people will soon wish that this hadn't been done, you as an American citizen will find this out all to soon i predict. They will wish that Bush had bowed to anyones superior intelligence. You'll find that SKY NEWS are quite impartial and they offer the most factual news. eg the first network to bring you news of the attacks was them. They had a reporter on a satellite phone only miles from Kabul when it happened. You will find that an actual CIA report is quite true and factualm more so than a tarrot card.

When you have been proven wrong, do you always mock the individual who has done so, a bit babyish isn't it.

I agree, we should not kill bin laden. We should capture him, take that turban off of his head and give him the butt flossing of his life with it; Then we tie him to a chair, wire his eyelids open, and make him watch videos of chicken and softwarerevue dancing naked for the rest of his life. :D

-This conversation needed a bit of humor-:rolleyes:

Just a small point as I missed a lot of the reporting but I did get Bin Ladens particular piece of propoganda...

1. He's trying to make this a religious war... "war against Islam" which is so much cr*p but he knows some will see it that way.

2. The whole point of his initial action (if indeed he was directly responsible) was to goad the USA and other Western nations into some kind of response.

I actually think he got the 2nd one wrong a little (at least on timing). I reckon there were a lot of you (me included) expecting Bush to jump on a hoss' and go gunning into town shooting the whole place up... Boy was I shocked when he didn't.

Since then, here in the UK we've seen a number of petty, vindictive BNP (British National Party - Facists by any other name) doing their damndest to push their own cause and in the process promote yet more hatred within potential Bin Laden camps.


So, for all you "righteous" individuals out there, consider that Bin Laden appears to be a very astute, patient and intelligent man. He's worked out our petty little differences, he knows his enemy and he knows that he could easily let us tear ourselves apart. He also knows that our leaders may well "help" his cause in ways they can't avoid.

I know hatred, I know humanity and I for one wish for once we'd learn to look at the "ROOT" causes and all the myriad of minor/major infringements, bad decisions, etc... that go to make up lost lives, injustice, and the desire for revenge.

That said, our coallition does at least seem to be trying to do the right thing in some ways by trying to provide aid to the Afghan people and even Bush is giving Sharron (in Israel) something of a 'suggestion' to calm things down.

Gah... another essay. But as they've all said, this will take a long time... a lot of lives and no-one will win.

My prayers, as always, with everyone.

lol @ rewdog :D

More likely, you couldn't respond without turning to something that isn't fact, the truth or something that would actually happen or have some relation to the thread. Cos that just isn't ever gonna happen. Does anyone have a sensible response???

Websnail : It already is a religious war whether some of us are not willing to admit the cold fact. There are sides, one religion is on one side and another on the other. It may not be as clear cut and defined as the holy crusades but it is blatent to see.

A second thing to note is that we bombed the nation and its populace with munitions and hours later dropped food, the wrong way round wouldn't you say. Kill them and then feed them. The action was done to create awareness for their cause in my opinion and not a response.

Originally posted by Nick Worby
More likely, you couldn't respond without turning to something that isn't fact, the truth or something that would actually happen or have some relation to the thread. Cos that just isn't ever gonna happen. Does anyone have a sensible response??? I would have to say; if you are to be the judge of what is and what isn't a "sensible response" the answer, at least on 'my' part would be . . . . No.

Isn't what he said blatent to anybody with half a brain to be a bit not sensible and in tune with this conversation.

My response to websnail has been edited in to the previous post.

Originally posted by Nick Worby
Websnail : It already is a religious war whether some of us are not willing to admit the cold fact. There are sides, one religion is on one side and another on the other. It may not be as clear cut and defined as the holy crusades but it is blatent to see.

A second thing to note is that we bombed the nation and its populace with munitions and hours later dropped food, the wrong way round wouldn't you say. Kill them and then feed them. The action was done to create awareness for their cause in my opinion and not a response.
To tell the truth... this is NOT a religious war... this is a war involving someone who wants us to BELIEVE it's a religious war. If it were then we'd see a majority of Islamic believers up in arms... in fact we'd see civil war. If people like yourself tout it around as a religious war then you can expect it to become one.

Oh and read up on the holy crusades... In all cases they were touted as a religious cause and that's how they drew up the battle lines but in fact it was men, under a banner of religion, who then defiled every law in that religion.

As far as the 2nd point goes... yes, you're right food would have been better but at the end of the day our governments represent their peoples wishes and in this case something like 80%+ want retribution. But to say we bombed their populace (you make it sound like we tried to bomb anything more than a small segment) is tantamount to overstatement. I'll be interested to see exactly what was hit and whether the targets were in fact "legitimate" (and all the wishy washy definitions that go with that term).

And as for only wanting to bring attention to their cause. Don't be so naive... they had plans to kill upwards of 50,000 people in a way guaranteed to require retribution. Of course it was mean't to incite a response... a war if you will... but one that they think they can win (and by they, I don't mean the coalition).

Originally posted by Nick Worby
A second thing to note is that we bombed the nation and its populace with munitions and hours later dropped food, the wrong way round wouldn't you say. Kill them and then feed them.

We didn't bomb the "populace". It is they who did. The intended targets in Afghanistan are air fields and command and control centers.

Please, let's not have the truth be the next victim.

Originally posted by alchiba
We didn't bomb the "populace". It is they who did.

Well, they don't see it that way. Our support of Israel and support for other countries and operations in that area haven't won us any points. This area has been 'unstable' for quite some time and the mix of religion and government is strong, unlike here. They seem to champion causes in the name of religion as if they actually believe that the answer to the whole mess is to fly cilivian passenger jets into office buildings, and other monumental targets.

There's been little attempt to remedy the situation there by the people in the area. Everyone will only be happy if they get what they want which is impossible as they all want the same thing. It just ain't gonna happen, no matter how you slice it.

While I won't say that I condone those who suggest, "Nuke them!", I wonder what these waepons are for, and under what circumstances they'd ever be used? Regardless of whether you think we are in the right or wrong, from a military objective, our target is inexact. The enemy hides in sparsely populated areas, in hills, in caves, etc. Seems like the ideal use.

Again, while I won't go so far as to say this is what we should do, after seeing the events of Sept. 11, I have little doubt that had they had the capability, they would have used it.

The constant fighting in the Middle East has always saddened and sickened me. It is amazing how violent this area has been and continues to be. I didn't see an end to it then, and I certainly don't see an end to it in the near future.

As I sit here typing away on my computer, my heart goes out to anyone remotely involved or affected by any and all of this.

Originally posted by Nick Worby
It already is a religious war whether some of us are not willing to admit the cold fact. There are sides, one religion is on one side and another on the other.

No. That's exactly the way the terrorists all over the world want to turn it. Don't follow their path. It's a war between honest people and terrorists, not a war between Christs and Islam.

Originally posted by Chicken
Our support of Israel and support for other countries and operations in that area haven't won us any points. This area has been 'unstable' for quite some time and the mix of religion and government is strong, unlike here.

Indeed, it's very sad. I hope that Bush will do something to force both parties to negotiate at the round table.

Well lets look at the two sides, good and evil in this case, fighting for good we have nations that mainly white christians and the main nation supports the home of the jews, the leader of the coalition force (Bush) is a strict Christian. The other side is virtualliy totally muslim and the leader is a Muslim or believes that he is.

They dont claim it but it sure looks like two groups of religious followers fighting it out. They have already won on some levels, look at the chaos that hsa been caused financially worldwide, mass job losses. I doubt 80% of the British pop'n suppport the attacks but i could be wrong. On the holy crusadeds i will take your word for it with the exception that most were Christians so in tune with what i said a few lines above, does it matter.

Nick, that's the way the terrorists want to turn it.
Believe me, most of the moslems just want to live in peace as you and me. There always will be some f***ing idiots who want to bring terror to innocent people, and in most cases they act by divide and conquer.

Since you guys have brought religion into this conversation, I might as well add my thoughts.

I think ALL religions, Christianity, Muslim, Hinduism, Buddhism, whatever... does the world more harm than good. Especially when it's taken to the extreme.

Look at David Koresh, Heaven's Gate, abortion clinic bombings, KKKs and their burning crosses, witch burning, gay bashing, and now... Bin Laden.

My beef with religion isn't with the morality and some of the really wise teachings presented in them. It's with the fact that ALL religions tell you to believe in BLIND FAITH. It doesn't matter that someone has never seen, felt, heard, nor sensed god. It doesn't matter that there's no undeniable proof of god's existence. Furthermore, one must believe not just part of a religion, but ALL of it. At least of the "interpretation" of whoever is preaching.

So that makes people gullible. So gullible they're willing to do outrageous things together. That's where the danger comes in. It wouldn't surprise me if the world comes to its end one day because of religion. And I mean that too.

Yeah I know some of you will jump on me and flame me, but that's the chance I am taking expressing my view here. And wouldn't that be ironic? My door gets knocked on by Jehovah's witnesses (sp?) in suits preaching me about god at least once every year. I get preached on at various places I go. Yet I am considered evil and bad when I voice my opinion every so often. Go figure.
:cartman:

Originally posted by Nick Worby
Well lets look at the two sides, good and evil in this case, fighting for good we have nations that mainly white christians and the main nation supports the home of the jews

Those who characterize the West as evil would prefer to ignore the fact that the last four or five major U.S. military operations have been to support the Muslim world: Kuwait, Somalia, the Balkans, and others.

Americans have died for and because of the Muslim world. Could we get a little credit for that, please?

Originally posted by Nick Worby
Well lets look at the two sides, good and evil in this case, fighting for good we have nations that mainly white christians and the main nation supports the home of the jews, the leader of the coalition force (Bush) is a strict Christian. The other side is virtualliy totally muslim and the leader is a Muslim or believes that he is.

They dont claim it but it sure looks like two groups of religious followers fighting it out. They have already won on some levels, look at the chaos that hsa been caused financially worldwide, mass job losses. I doubt 80% of the British pop'n suppport the attacks but i could be wrong. On the holy crusadeds i will take your word for it with the exception that most were Christians so in tune with what i said a few lines above, does it matter. Ok, now I see where you are coming from... You as a Christian believe us to be on the side of "good"...

Well I've got news for you... virtually everyone in any religious conflict has had GOD on their side... Yep, both sides had him there fighting with them. BUT this isn't a religious conflict.. have you not heard Islamic leaders in the UK and elsehwere calling for these terrorists to be called terrorists and not "islamic"... Islam and it's religious followers in the overwhelming majority want NOTHING to do with this.

I also seems you've swallowed every little bit of propoganda thrown at you regarding Israel and the way that they are attacked unjustly. Sorry but in a lot of ways that area is nothing but one big balled up mess with everyone doing the dirt on the other. If you check the demographic in Israel you'll also find that a majority are in fact agnostics and don't give a toss about Judaism or any other religion. Again, it's just about labelling the sides.

To reiterate my point AGAIN... this is NOT about religion (who cares what religion Bush believes in... this is about a WHOLE slew of countries, not BUSH!!).. In case it escaped your notice there are countries, people (including soldiers) who believe in everything from Judaism, christianity, Islam, hinduism, buddism, daoism and more... ALL taking part on your so called side of "good" (not that I believe it's anything to do with good and evil - more correctly 'us' and 'them')... It's about someone(s) attacking a way of life, killing innocent people and the response is that they cannot be allowed to do it again. Justice I believe it's called (although I'd question the way it's being carried out to a certain extent)...

As for the crusades... like I said, read up on it. You don't appear to have grasped the true status of the 'holy' land... It was a trade nexus and back in the middle ages religion was to all intents government.

That's it as far as this thread goes for me... I reckon I've made my points but I suspect that Nick, you aren't listening.. you've already decided that your cause is just and that it's religious... I only pray (yes, pray) that you don't relfect the majority of individuals or we are headed for an earthly vision of hell... ALL of us.

Bin Laden claims its a war against islam which is not true... If Bin Laden was a great leader he would have bought food for his people with all the money he have and not fund terrorist groups. As an American, I want him, his followers, and every single one of his cells dead. How can we have peace when there are chances of terrorist attacks each day. I think Bush is doing this as a benefit in many parts of the world as we all know Bin Laden does terrorist deeds in many countries.

Originally posted by Nick Worby
A leaked CIA projection on attacks against the US after a retalitory strike has been made known. The CIA believe that the chances and success of an attack that would be equal to the September 11th attack are at 100%

The report that i believe was leaked to the Washington Post also stated that it is almost certain that there are multiple cells that are active in US major cities. There plans could already be in motion. Another side effect of making him a matyr.
The problem is that there is also a 100% chance that another terrorist attack will occur if we don't do anything! Remember, bin Laden is not happy until we are all dead. Period.

Why do you think these guys are so bold now. They struck the US Embassies In Africa, they struck the USS Cole, and we did nothing. We sent in a couple of cruise missiles and destroyed a $10 tent. Big deal.

We have allowed these guys to operate with impunity and we need to remedy that now. It's not going to be fun. It's not going to be pretty. It's going to ultimately involve things like the expulsion of illegal immigrants in the US - wait till that action starts if you want to see liberals worked up here.

This action in Afghanistan is ugly, but it's way overdue. It's time to stomp our terrorism, and take heavy actions against any government that supports terrorists either financially or by succoring them.

-t

Originally posted by WebSnail.net
[clip]I know hatred, I know humanity and I for one wish for once we'd learn to look at the "ROOT" causes and all the myriad of minor/major infringements, bad decisions, etc... that go to make up lost lives, injustice, and the desire for revenge.[clip]
So help us to understand what is the ROOT cause here. I'm not being facitious, I'd really like to know what you consider the root of this problem.

Is it the so called occupation of Palestine? Read some history of the region, and you'll find that the Kingdom of Israel was in the region called Palestine long before any Muslim claim on the region.

Pick a date in history going back 5000 years, and you will find dozens of conquerors who made Palestine home, starting with the Caananites, and including the Hebrews, the Turks, Romans, Egyptians, and more. Who should now occupy the region? Why don't we ask the UN to help - oh, we did, and Israel was given a small slice of the region know as Palestine to call home.

Should their be a Palestinian state? Many would say that their already is in Syria, Lybia, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Iran, all occupying parts of the region known as Palestine. There has never been a country called Palestine. Should their be? You could argue that it should be carved from Syria.

The fact that the Jews, Christians and Mulsims all share the same genesis for their religion makes this region of the world even more difficult to understand.

ROOT cause? Forgive me, but I don't think that you or I are capable of defining this one.

-t

Originally posted by Nick Worby
Well lets look at the two sides, good and evil in this case, fighting for good we have nations that mainly white christians and the main nation supports the home of the jews, the leader of the coalition force (Bush) is a strict Christian. The other side is virtualliy totally muslim and the leader is a Muslim or believes that he is. [clip]
So which side do you put the Northern Alliance on? These are Muslims, fighting Muslims, in an effort to remove a totalitarian regime from their country. The Taleban are not moderate representatives of Islam at all. They are extremist power mongers who use their religion as an axe to commit the most horrible of attrocities. The people of Afghanistan have been trying to remove them since they came to power in 1994.

Many believe that the Taleban were created by the Pakistani intelligence community and were funded by bin Laden to take control of Afghanistan and to create a home for terrorism. Their first act was to kill the opposition leaders. Their second was to suppress the people.

It's not about the Christians and the Jews fighting the Muslims, and you need to understand that.

We do. Our government does. The Nations of the world do - including the Islamic nations.

The fact that the hard-liners in the Taleban continue to call it an attack on Islam is only to try to rally more extremists to their cause. Will they? Probably. Will it matter? Not much.

By the way, those who believe that the death of bin Laden will result in the creation of an unstoppable martyr do not undertand Islam at all. His name will be a rallying cry for the hard-liners, just as it is today. His death will not mobilize millions of Muslims to take up the fight against the Infidel. He will be dead, and his leadership and his money will be removed from the fight with his death. That would be a good thing.

-t

Originally posted by thewitt

So help us to understand what is the ROOT cause here. I'm not being facitious, I'd really like to know what you consider the root of this problem.
(Snip)
Actually I agree with you and the various point you make... The "root" cause of the problem is simply so complex, involves literally millions of individuals actions, beliefs, etc... that no-one can even begin to understand the best way to unravel it.

At the same time many of the points you made also acknowledge that the whole "ownership" of a land is somewhat tenuous as so many people have had a claim or governed over it for millenia.

Most of what I've said is more out of of wishful thinking than a genuine personal ability to "solve" the problem. That said though, if Israel could stop bombing the cr*p out of the civilian population in the West Bank... if it could actually consider REAL access to those religiously significant areas for ALL religions, in fact SHARING them as they have equal importance for all it seems... if it could actually recognise the genuine attempts of some in the Palestinian government to bring the area some kind of lasting peace... (a whole lot of if's I know) then it can only help put the area onto a road where people can start to argue that terrorist attack cannot be justified in any shape or form.


Guess I should retract my earlier statement that the last post would be the last... Should know better I suppose :)

I guess I know people can't live in peace without some form of disagreement (major or minor) but I'd sure like to try...

Thanks for you post -T, helps get my head on track.

Hold on back up everybody, i am a strict atheist, where the hell you got me being a Christian from is beyond me.

Concerning what the British Muslim leaders said about the identity fo Bin Laden and his followers, it isn't whether the leaders claim they are muslim or not, it is that they believe they are Muslim, have you seen the pictures in Pakistan, thos thousands of people believe them to be of Islam and or defend him and his cause. If they belive it they will follow him.

The partial root of this problem is i agree with you the status of the Israel situation, yes in my opinion there should be a palestine state and government. This was a major factor in the hatred that is directed at the US, it was quite obvious that being impartial isn't a US strength in that part of th world, you were blatently pro Israel. Concerning the Crusades, you will find that the holy land is a bit more than a trade nexus, it is the gateway to the far east and Indian sub continent. You say that the crusades were nations flying a religious banner, well what do you call the Byzantines, they supported and often attacked the Persians and the Muslim area, they spreaded thw word of christ at the time, not the word of the Empire, why do you think their shields had a cross on them and the empire was almost entirely Christian.

This maybe a hard one for you guys in the US to swallow but you armed, created and taught the Taleban by yourselves, mainly using the CIA, they were a political means to an end and now it has hit you back in the face.

Thewitt you do not understand Islam if you believe killing him will make things worse, if you can't see that i don't see how you can understand anything.

The Taleban were actually a better gov when they were and are in charge, the Northern Alliance had it's chance and were even worse.

Websnail you appear to have read me all wrong in this thread, and you would know my views on Palestine if you read my first two posts.

Originally posted by Skeptical
Since you guys have brought religion into this conversation, I might as well add my thoughts.

I think ALL religions, Christianity, Muslim, Hinduism, Buddhism, whatever... does the world more harm than good. Especially when it's taken to the extreme.

Look at David Koresh, Heaven's Gate, abortion clinic bombings, KKKs and their burning crosses, witch burning, gay bashing, and now... Bin Laden.

My beef with religion isn't with the morality and some of the really wise teachings presented in them. It's with the fact that ALL religions tell you to believe in BLIND FAITH. It doesn't matter that someone has never seen, felt, heard, nor sensed god. It doesn't matter that there's no undeniable proof of god's existence. Furthermore, one must believe not just part of a religion, but ALL of it. At least of the "interpretation" of whoever is preaching.

So that makes people gullible. So gullible they're willing to do outrageous things together. That's where the danger comes in. It wouldn't surprise me if the world comes to its end one day because of religion. And I mean that too.

Yeah I know some of you will jump on me and flame me, but that's the chance I am taking expressing my view here. And wouldn't that be ironic? My door gets knocked on by Jehovah's witnesses (sp?) in suits preaching me about god at least once every year. I get preached on at various places I go. Yet I am considered evil and bad when I voice my opinion every so often. Go figure.
:cartman:

Reminds me of that Southpark on BLAINISM (David Blain the magician.) That was some funny stuff :stan:

Originally posted by Nick Worby
[clip]This maybe a hard one for you guys in the US to swallow but you armed, created and taught the Taleban by yourselves, mainly using the CIA, they were a political means to an end and now it has hit you back in the face.

Thewitt you do not understand Islam if you believe killing him will make things worse, if you can't see that i don't see how you can understand anything.

The Taleban were actually a better gov when they were and are in charge, the Northern Alliance had it's chance and were even worse. [clip]
Sorry. The Taliban were not created by the CIA. They surfaced in 1994 - well after the CIA backed mujahadin drove out the Soviets. The Taliban were backed by the Packistan intellegence community and overthrew the Afghani government that was in place after the Soviets were driven out.

They are not a better government. They are oppressive, totally corrupt and no better than any other totalitarian regime. The prior government was not stellar either, however the Taliban are not a step forward for the people of Afghanistan in any way shape or form.

Here's a quote from a 1996 article on Pakistan's role in Afghanistan:
The appearance of the Taliban in the war in 1994 was initially praised by the US as a stabilising force. However, the true nature of Taliban barbarism has been revealed by increased attention since the fall of Kabul. Medieval lifestyles are enforced on a society which has never had such "Islamic" laws.

The main difference of the Taliban from the others is their systematic cruelty. Two days after they entered Kabul, a little boy was paraded and beaten through the streets with cigarette burns all over his body and money stuffed up his nose, in his mouth and ears. His hands were then publicly removed. Apparently he stole some metal sheets from a destroyed house.
You tell me how this is good.

And I do understand Islam very well, and what it takes to be a true martyr. bin Laden does not have the strength to become a significant player in the broader Muslim world. He is seen as a fanatic by the majority of Islam, and his death will not result in an actual jihad.

By the way, the Qur'an does not allow an individual to declare a jihad, nor does it support suicide, the killing of civilians, or the killing of Muslims. bin Laden has done all of these things, and his actions have been condemned by the bulk of the Islamic world. His death will be welcomed by Islam, not martryed by any other than the far extreme Islamists. In 20 years, he has managed to gather 4,000 followers from the ranks of 3,000,000 Mulsims. Not a huge following at all - though still a force to be erraticated.

Saying that bin Laden and the al Quada represents Islam is like saying that David Duke and the KKK represents Christianity. Neither statement has any truth to it whatsoever.

-t

Here's what I'm thinkin'. . . . . .

"Nick Worby" = "Dictator" :eek:


For those of you not familiar with the "Dictator" reference, please disregard this post. :cartman:

You can see by the manner i have replied in this thread that i am normally quite sure of my opinions, however i must conceed that i am wrong concerning bin laden and his identification as a martyr in Islam. I spoke to one of my friennds who is muslim and he told me such. So to save some face and stop the idiot factor from icreasing i conceed on that point. My information on the CIA and its relation to the Taliban i heard from Tim Marshall, a reporter from Sky News who also stated that the SAS helped out as well, if i am mistaken it isn't cos i made it up. Something concerning the two gov's in Afghanistan, a quote by the above reporter, "At the time the population chose the better of two evils"

I'm not gonna post in this thread anymore and take my leave.

I have no idea what Softwarerevue is on about but anyway. See you in another thread and watch Sky News for the latest updates on the situation.

*I do not work for Sky News in any way and i wasn't paid for advertising of the network*

Ref to Simpsons Episode where Homer says similar things about Fox and gets shot in the head for saying CBS is good.

*No CNN people in here i hope*

Originally posted by Nick Worby
. . . . . . .I have no idea what Softwarerevue is on about but anyway. . . . . . .Well, like I said; if ya don't know just disregard it.
You would have had to been around for the WHT Cartel references and all that.
All in all . . . . Great fun! :cartman:

Yes the whole CIA/Taliban/Osama thing seemed like a good idea at the time I'm sure. It isn't the first time a past friend we've helped has turned into a target, and probably won't be the last. We're helping countries and leaders today (even in regards to this conflict) that may, one day, turn out to be the next ememy we face. Things change, rulers change, etc.

Originally posted by Chicken
Yes the whole CIA/Taliban/Osama thing seemed like a good idea at the time I'm sure. It isn't the first time a past friend we've helped has turned into a target, and probably won't be the last. We're helping countries and leaders today (even in regards to this conflict) that may, one day, turn out to be the next ememy we face. Things change, rulers change, etc. I think someone said it best when they said
"Life is not a rehearsal"... it goes on (we hope) and despite the crud expression that there's nothing certain in life except death and taxes... I'd argue that "change" is one of the few constants... Ironic isn't it.