I just wanted to say I am very happy with the service. Their presence and ability to deliver hosting that is always top notch is wonderful. I also like the fact that hosting is inexpensive, and customer service that is helpful, with responses within 24 hours! A wonderful company :)

That is rare... someone that come here for the first time to share with us his appreciation of his host :)

Too bad we usually only hear from the bad hosts and not the good ones.

Note: I express no opinion on the veracity of the above post, it just 'feels' a bit forced or fake.

Wow. A host so good that you would register just to compliment them?

They MUST be good! ;)

Matt

LOL!

PoserX, what's your website url? And whats it about?

I can see no good coming from this thread already :( I think I know where its headed.

-Brendan

Thinkhost has asked its clients to stop by the forums and post words of praise if they feel satisfied with the services. While it is a good marketing technique, these people weren't forced, just asked. I just hope the forums don't get flooded with new topics too often (rather they be confined to a few threads max.).

We'll keep an eye on it, but... well you know.

Chicken, have the CDS on full alert. There is no way we're gonna let a re-run of ThinkHost @ SitePoint or even here previously happen again. Close and move if it degenerates.

To the others : feel free to continue discussing the merits of ThinkHost, but keep it civil. If it blows up, the CDS will close the thread without warning, and you'll know why.

Maybe Matt can make a forum for praising your host so it wont flood the open forum

Let's stretch your idea even one step further... praise and criticisms for web hosting & dedicated server companies deserve two separate forums.

That will only make the moderators job easier... + leave all of us in peace.

Ping: BC, Chicken, Kunal, Matt and MikeA: What do you guys think of Ms. Moderator's modified suggestion?

Learner

[Edited by Learner on 10-02-2000 at 09:59 AM]

don't think any one will sign up now i would'nt
spaming is not the way to go with advertising

this suggestion was made, Google.

More than half the time this forum receives requests asking for either praise or criticisms... you know... our opinions about other webhosting companies.

It is really irritating to have them all mixed up with the regular help threads which makes this forum so valued for what it is today.

That is why it would be better to have, perhaps, a single WEBHOSTING COMPANIES OPINIONS FORUM separately from the rest.

If we can have a website reviews forum, an advertising forum, a general conversations forum... I think it would make much more sense and improve the functionality of this forum to simply create another forum where members or guests could ask or other's opinions of the quality of services and features and price offered by webhosting companies.

It is as simple as that. It also provides a homogenous source of similar information under one heading, leaving the other forums free where people looking for help on technical issues can surf.

Half the time we regular members are forced to view threads which get spammed or slammed anyway. Subtle spamming or slamming will never ever stop... it would be wishful thinking :D but at least this forum would be better organized.

Just a personal suggestion... that's all. It is for Matt to decide in the end. Maybe other members could come up with their opinions on Dana's suggestion as well. May facilitate Matt to decide eventually.

Web hosting is a rapidly growing industry. Most of today's resellers could possibly exercise their choice of becoming tomorrow's new web hosting companies. If Matt's forum becomes even better at providing a rich source of technical knowledge and assistance, we all benefit... including this forum.

And I sincerely wish for that to happen.

Learner

[Edited by Learner on 10-02-2000 at 10:16 AM]

agreed, a new forum topic for that would be just nice.

If your gonna make a new forum for every type of web hosting thread then you need to rename this one as well to what you seem to want it used for. "General Web Hosting" In my opinion that covers a lot of ground to include this thread. Either make a seperate one named Web hosting support and web hosting reviews then remove this one becuase up till now this one is comprised of the two.

I agree with you that GENERAL is a very "generalized" word anyway :)

But why did Matt decid to create the Technical/Hardware Forum, the Business Forum, the Software Forum in the first place? Couldn't these also easily be clubbed under General Web Hosting pertaining to the technology of web hosting and related issues? Of course they could... but they were created for a valid reason: to club pertinent information together under one heading.

No, there is no need at all to rename this forum... the current name General Web Hosting Forum is perfect. Just by creating another Opinions of Hosting Companies Forum, most of the future posts of this nature automatically get separated.

If a newbie or a member is looking for such info, it is much easier for him to search it out... all other one Forum together. So many posts of this nature are made daily. In fact such posts comprise the biggest percentage of the threads in this forum.

Similarly, if a newbie or a member is surfing for info on other general issues or assistance from fellow members, he can look here. At least there is no irritation in being forced to read so many threads or posts which often don't benefit their surfing.

So let's wait to see what both the newbies and the regular members in this forum have to say about this too.

Learner

[Edited by Learner on 10-02-2000 at 11:20 AM]

Put me down for a "no" on a new topic just for that purpose. This topic has been motoring along pretty well as is, with the slightest hiccup here and there, and functions well as an inclusive type reference for people who want to praise/complain about a host, ask questions on features offered by them, pose technical questions specifically relating to hosting, etc. If you go too far in categorizing, things will get lost, and as a result, become less useful for people who come here seeking advice on how to select a host (and I think that's originally what this topic was for, anyhow). I know Matt by himself can't moderate such a busy place, so now we have a gang (a mode?) of moderators to try and keep the "other stuff", whether it be ads or threads more suited to other topics, confined to where it actually needs to be.

Originally posted by Dana
Maybe Matt can make a forum for praising your host so it wont flood the open forum


While I think that this is a good idea, I think it has disaster written all over it. Someone posts something good, then 50 people say what an idiot they are and how the host sucks.

I suggest using the Advertising / Offers forum for good comments or one that is alread created.

... it would worsen the quality of this forum, Annette. It would only improve it.

If this forum wishes to motor along with full throttle, Dana's suggestion should be implemented. If it wishes to just motor along at slow speed, there is no harm in continuing this way.

I am looking at this issue from the viewpoint of newbies... potential visitors who would be more inclined to become members. That is one goal any forum sets out to achieve. And the sooner this is achieved, the sooner will Matt be able to receive decent funding from other companies.

Already a number of guests have made stringent remarks in the past that this forum has become a huge slamming/praising post for a few regular members here, and stated they wouldn't like to become members of this forum due to this.

Also, this may be disgusting for other webhosting companies, who would perhaps have liked to become members here too, but left after they too felt that this forum has just too much of mutual slamming/praising.

So everyone would benefit if more and more newbies signed up as members... right?

I recall Duster mentioning this earlier in another thread... that there are over 16,000 web hosting companies out there already. Compare this figure with the number of regular members we have here, and I think my message for implementing Dana's suggestion comes across.

I am only posting here wishing to point out that implementing this suggestion would be best for all newbies, current members, current web hosting companies, and Matt alike.

Learner

[Edited by Learner on 10-02-2000 at 12:08 PM]

Originally posted by MikeA
[QUOTE]Someone posts something good, then 50 people say what an idiot they are and how the host sucks.

So wouldn't it be better to let all this happen in another forum, specially created for such discussions? It would save us the headache of being forced to read such stuff inside this General Web Hosting Forum.

Learner

[Edited by Learner on 10-02-2000 at 11:46 AM]

Hey, you asked for votes, so you got mine.

Here's the issue I see. Newbies, in general, are certainly not afraid to drop a post in saying "what about so-and-so", or "I'm looking for this-and-thus" without actually reading the existing messages at all. So for people who are not likely to read already-posted messages (or use that handy search feature at the top of the page), one forum or another is not going to make any difference at all. Not interested in reading those types of threads? Skip them. Simple, and what I myself do with some of the threads here. If you start marginalizing every single type of post that comes through, you wind up with people who may very well have good information not providing it, because either they've missed t, or, in this particular example, they are not interested in adding yet another topic to the list of things to read.

The people that were complaining about this being just a forum for the hosts who hang out here are proven wrong over and over - and some of them were either slammed for advertising or didn't offer up any of their own suggestions anyway, even after moaning about the disparity. I have no sympathy for them, either way. The praise and criticism doled out here on a daily basis is deserved. Whether or not people like to hear that sort of honesty is beside the point. Every day I look at the number of total registrations, and see the new names popping up there. That is a fine indicator of a healthy forum, and quite frankly, this forum has some of the most useful information out of all the other similar forums that I look at day to day.

This forum pushed out about 8G of traffic last month. That's not an issue of just motoring along at a "slow speed". That's a damn fine testament to the power that sharing information can give you.

I still vote no on a separate topic for review of hosting companies (if votes mean anything, since it's Matt's deal anyway). This forum, in fact, has the description "Forum for discussing all aspects relating to web hosting services, including past experiences and newbie questions. No advertisements are allowed in this forum.". With good moderation and civil discourse, there should be no reason to change it.

Originally posted by Annette
Hey, you asked for votes, so you got mine.

Uh... oh...!!!! Why the aggressiveness in your tone???!!!!!

I'm sorry if I have offended you, but again I don't really see how I have? It wasn't my intention anyway. So I apologize.

You mentioned earlier about newbies not using the handy search feature at the top, correct? That is all the more reason for separating the major types of threads here. It will improve the functionality of this forum even more.

The praise and criticism doled out here on a daily basis is deserved. Whether or not people like to hear that sort of honesty is beside the point.

I fully agree. But how would this become different just because we created another forum for this? I am sure this sort of honesty won't get affected. Why should it? Am I missing something here?

...quite frankly, this forum has some of the most useful information out of all the other similar forums that I look at day to day.

Yes... so how would this also change just by separating the two major types of threads - (1) technical & (2) opinions? I don't see any logical reason for this to change.

This forum pushed out about 8G of traffic last month. That's not an issue of just motoring along at a "slow speed". That's a damn fine testament to the power that sharing information can give you.

This 8GB figure is no reason to now feel complacent and sit back, is it? I congratulate Matt on this achievement too. Great going!!! I just wish that this forum grows even faster with a richer variety of newer members comprising of both newbies and other web hosting companies.

Also remember that this forum had over 5,000 hits due to that single Alabanza thread alone.

I just wish for this forum that its traffic soon exceeds 25GB within a short span of time and attracts even many more times the number of signups it is getting today. That is what will make this forum financially independant sooner + having a richer variety of content - both technically and critically.

With good moderation and civil discourse, there should be no reason to change it.

Yes, the previous moderators have done a good job... and the new moderators will do even better.

It surely would be no easy task for our moderators as bandwidth and the number of members increase. The sooner a new forum is implemented, their task will become also become comparatively easier.

And ultimately, as this forum grows, a new separate forum for opinions will just have to be implemented as a matter of practicality. And I think the time is ripe enough now so that WebHostingTalk continues to grow more fruitfully and much faster.

Why wait until later?????????????

Learner

[Edited by Learner on 10-02-2000 at 12:58 PM]

Why is it that people continually try to lay a certain tone on what I say? You asked for opinions, etc., and now you have one from me. Nothing more, nothing less. Does everything have to be prepended by a smiley in order for people to have a civil discussion?

Newbies don't check for things first (it's a rather time-honored tradition, in fact). Dividing the forums up even more won't change that.

If the signal to noise ratio increases, people will leave. If the forum becomes too anal about what goes where, instead of drawing broader categories, people will leave. Those are the simple facts of life, and people who have seen the sine wave of various forums can attest to it.

It doesn't really matter to me one way or another what Matt decides to do. I would prefer to have the forum remain as is, but simply have people be more aware of what they're posting where. But that isn't up to me (or you, or anyone else but Matt).

It's always very easy to point out what you think should or should not be done when it's someone else's dime and someone else's headache. But the fact remains that this forum works (and works very well). It is not at all about being complacent somehow about the total traffic a forum gets. It's about the quality of the information passed through it that matters.

[Edited by Annette on 10-02-2000 at 04:56 PM]

I agree with my mind mate on all points. Further, many people, especially newcomers, read rather than post, as is true in most any forum.

Originally posted by Annette
Why is it that people continually try to lay a certain tone on what I say? You asked for opinions, etc., and now you have one from me. Nothing more, nothing less. Does everything have to be prepended by a smiley in order for people to have a civil discussion?

No it doesn't!!!!! And our discussion is very civil too... I agree!!!!!


Newbies don't check for things first (it's a rather time-honored tradition, in fact). Dividing the forums up even more won't change that.

Because it's a rather time-honored tradition that newbies don't check for things first... is one of the biggest reasons to create another special forum for the myriad opinions of web hosting companies that are posted here.


There are basically two types of members visiting such forums:

1. Newbies

2. Those already in the know (Regular Members)


Again, there are two types of "newbies" generally observed here:

1a. The newbie who looks for opinions on hosting companies because he either was to host for the first time or select a new host because he isn't satisfied with his previous one.

1b. The newbie who already has a host he is satisfied with but is looking for technical info/advice to advance his website.


Similarly, there are two types of "Regular Members" generally observed here:

2a. The regular member who wishes to learn more about the technical issues regarding the hosting industry in general (more as a silent member, less as an active member).

2b. The regular member who also wishes to genuinely help out others here and/or hold meaningful discussions/debates with other members (such as you, Annette).


When anyone clicks on a particular forum, he is taken to the relevant topic page which lists the subject headings of all the threads in it in a chronolical fashion, does it not? These threads again generally are a mixture of technical info and opinion based info.

So the suggestion here is to just separate the two... as simple as that... to make it more convenient for the most of us.


Would most newbies/members rather see a whole page of threads needlessly mixed up, click on them, see that it doesn't interest them, and then go back to click on another? Very often the subject headings of most threads are misleading, correct?

Or would most newbies/members prefer to see a whole page of theads containing content that would be mostly pertinent to what they desired to see in the first place?


If the signal to noise ratio increases, people will leave. If the forum becomes too anal about what goes where, instead of drawing broader categories, people will leave. Those are the simple facts of life, and people who have seen the sine wave of various forums can attest to it.

Signal to noise ratio... ?????? Hmmm... according to Dana's original suggestion the signals (good posts) would continue, but the noise (ouchy posts) would be separated in another section and thus effective not be heard by those who do not wish to hear it in the first place!!!!!

Why should the forum become "too" anal all of a sudden... just by adding "one more" forum?

Drawing up broader catergories? Oh well, there are a few other similar forums having even more members and more broader categories... and you are a regular poster in some of them too!!!!!!

I am also talking exactly about the same sine wave of various forums that attest to what this suggestion is all about. And this sine wave indicates that if Matt wants to take his forum up the rungs fast, he will have to do something about this. The sooner Matt does it, the better for him... as can be attested from the sine wave of other similar forums.

Broader categories always are beneficial. That is why they are created in the first place. Especially in the case we are discussing here, doing something like this is more apt. We are a very focussed forum here... relating to WEB HOSTING TALK, thats all. In spite of that, most of the other 16,000 web hosting companies don't seem to come in here. Why?

Matt should address this question if he wants to take his forum further... because if he waits too long, another forum MAY just come up in the meantime to wean away most of these potential web hosting companies out there today. The rules of the forum game are simple. Members will be more loyal to whichever forum that benefits them more than others.


It doesn't really matter to me one way or another what Matt decides to do.

It may not really matter to you one way or another what Matt decides to do, but I would like to see this forum do much much better than what it currently is doing... asap.


I would prefer to have the forum remain as is, but simply have people be more aware of what they're posting where. But that isn't up to me (or you, or anyone else but Matt).

Exactly!!!!! How do you get people to simply be more aware of what is posted where???!!!!!!!!! That is why the suggestion is being made for a new forum exclusively for opinions.


It's always very easy to point out what you think should or should not be done when it's someone else's dime and someone else's headache.

Isn't that what you are doing too in this post... pointing out what you think should or should not be done when it's someone else's dime and someone else's headache?

LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't mean to get argumentative with you here just for the sake of getting argumentative, Annette. I personally hold you in very high regard, but that has nothing to do with a suggestion for the ultimate betterment of this forum.


But the fact remains that this forum works (and works very well).

That is does... but to think it works very well is also foolish at best. That is viewed as becoming complacent. If it works very well... Great!!!! Indeed it does!!!! Now let's make it work even better!!!!


It is not at all about being complacent somehow about the total traffic a forum gets - and using total traffic as a meter of some sort is foolish at best.

Are you trying to say that using total traffic a forum gets as a meter isn't a good indicator of a forum's popularity???? <Please see below>


It's about the quality of the information passed through it that matters.

And doesn't the quality of the information passed through it increase the traffic a forum gets in a major way? You just contradicted yourself!!!!!!!!!!!

And does that mean that a newbie or a member has to be forced to search for and read the quality information?

So many newbies and members have already complained about the spamming and the slamming here quite too often. Almost all of us have at some point of time or the other. That is why Matt desired to have a good team of moderators in place to check this.

So why not have another forum as well to check the fact that most of us shouldn't have to be tortured for the spamming and the slamming of a few?

Whooooaaaaa... it was good that we both presented our detailed views and opinions and arguments on this matter in this discussion... that too in quite a civilized manner!!! As you said earlier, the rest it up to Matt to decide.

Maybe if a few newbies or guests or other members posted their feeling here, this discussion could be even more beneficial to Matt... thus to this forum... thus to most of us here.

We both seem to have opinied enough on this issue in any case.

~ Learner

[Edited by Learner on 10-02-2000 at 05:36 PM]

Hmmm.. I thought I would not interfere in this, but then, I could not help it.

Could some one tell me what is the point of this "General Web hosting Forum"? It has been made for newbies to come and ask for help, and the more experienced people to help them by answering the newbies question. Is that correct?

Now, if in this scenerio a newbie comes in, and asks about a host X. A lot of people reply. There is one guy who says he likes host X, and the others had a bad experience with Host X. Well then let the newbie decide what he wonts to do. It is common sense that if one person is happy and 5 others un-happy, that host is not worth going to? Correct? So, if the number of posts increase to a huge amount, let it. As long as no one brakes any rules.

Already a number of guests have made stringent remarks in the past that this forum has become a huge slamming/praising post for a few regular members here, and stated they wouldn't like to become members of this forum due to this.

Well, thats coz the few members hosts here, are honest and quality hosts. Non-member hosts also get praised here, a simple example is webexpose.net. They are recommemded everytime some one needs NT hosting, coz they are good at what they do. Most newbies get attracted to deals that offer unlimited things, or deals which are too good to be true. Such hosts are going to get slammed and :uzi:, coz ther are scams, and the newbie doesnt know this. Which is why he is posting the question in the first place. To find out the quality of service, and "experiences" others have had with the host.

Bottom line, in this context, dividing the forum further does not make sense to me. If there is some other reason, we can discuss that.

[Edited by kunal on 10-02-2000 at 05:50 PM]

Anette and Duster on this , as I stated earlier.
Should the General section just keep getting
broken down further everytime a non support or
helpful tip comes along? Just my opinion but I like
the current breakdown of boards right now. Its
like Anette said, if you don't like those types
of post then pass over them!

Originally posted by jaguar
Anette and Duster on this , as I stated earlierAs do I, and did I. My final comment on the matter: the more you separate into different forums the more you marginalize each of them. So while adding "one more" certainly wouldn't lead to disaster, my expectation is that the newly-created forum would be so marginalized as to be worthless. That is, who'd read it and post there? People who need hosts, and people who have agendas: that is, hosts themselves either openly or discretely advertising their services, and those people who feel motivated to balance that or "even up" their bad experiences by criticizing a particular host.

Look at the number of posts and threads in the more specialized topics here and you'll see that people tend not to use them as regularly. Separate out this topic and you'll isolate the "newbie" looking for a host from a large body of users with a good general knowledge of the hosting industry but no interest in reading a bunch of posts only criticizing or praising hosts. I know, because I'd be one of those who'd never read it!

I'm torn on this one. While I agree having many different forums tends to decrease the effectiveness overall, I have to agree with Learner that there are two types of posts (and depending on the day or the situation someone may alter between the two).

1) Posts looking for a new host or praising their current one.

2) Posts looking for technical help.

These two types of posts apply to everyone regardless of background, experience, etc.....

Currently, these two types of posts are crammed together in the sames forums. While I don't think adding "1" more forum for Host Reviews & Opinions would really help seperate the two, I do believe that the structure of WHT should reflect this.

I have on many occasions filtered through the many posts to get to the technical ones and vise versa. This is a waste of time and decreases the efficiency of this forum (hence using more resources whether it be in GB, Moderators, etc.., etc....)

I think that defining the forums to clearly reflect the differences between these two types of posts would be better for everyone.

Don't get me wrong, I think this forum is amazing, but that shouldn't stop us at looking for ways to improve it.

[Edited by tabernack on 10-02-2000 at 07:06 PM]

Let me address the traffic issue here. Traffic, in and of itself is not a good indicator of the usefulness of a forum. It might indicate a certain popularity if many different people are posting. Or it might represent a home turf of sorts for only a few people. But if 90% of the traffic through a forum is noise, then the forum is useless for people seeking needed information. A forum that gets only 2G of traffic may be much more valuable than one that sees 20G if the 2G is more on signal (and helpful).

There is currently a technical topic under the business forum. Why start another? If there must be a division, just change the description of that topic and be done with it. Newbies (and others) will still post to the general web hosting topic, because a) they're used to doing so, b) they don't pay attention to the description anyway, or c) it's a lot more active, and always will be.

I simply don't understand this push-push-push, let's make this forum better, as if it were somehow broken to start. The only current problem (if you can call it that) is commercial posts here and there that should be in another forum (or, the "I'm giving away x" posts, which would probably be better served in the general category). Now that Matt has some help - even though he really did an admirable job before - this type of issue should diminish even more if it's caught early enough.

[Edited by Annette on 10-02-2000 at 07:00 PM]

In my previous experiences, I have seen forums slowly die a withering death when there have been simply too many categories. Case in point : have a look at Web Pages That Sucks' UBB (http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi). You may think the 200-300 post forums are OK... Until you get down to the bottom and see a 5600-post forum - reviewing sites. My point : if you diversify, you must have a substantially large enough user community in order to support traffic to all forums. And the x gigabytes of traffic isn't an accurate indicator either. Of course, huge forums like AOL, Delphi, etc. can get away with it, but as you go further down the scale then it's not as likely.

Of course, the opposite is true - you can stick a huge forum somewhere and no one will turn up if there isn't any 'seeding' performed (that is, opening new topics, having people on stand by to answer questions and build a community, etc.)

Quite frankly, until we're getting traffic much like SitePoint, I don't see much point in diversifying. Btw - if you look at SitePoint, even though they cover a much wider range of topics than web hosting, each forum at least has substantial traffic. And they have only one Web Hosting forum, yet newbies still post all the time in that single forum because they are at least assured of some kind of answer.

Have a look at other web hosting forums - HostSpot, Scriptkeeper, Tips-Tricks, Webmaster's Forums..... They all do very well with one or two single forums, and others rot. In fact, I could have sworn WHT is probably one of the very few forums (if there are any others at all) that looks at all aspects of web hosting by also providing an area for hosts to interact and help out. This has worked successfully, but is further diversification (especially with mods on board and how everything is currently rolling) really necessary at this stage of WHT's development?

As to the point about slamming/praising hosts, all I have to say is : each host deserves its come-upptence. (sorry, obscure Colonial phrase which really means, each host gets what it truly deserves.)

I'm going to have to agree with Annette and the NaySayers.

Let me explain why.

A forum should only diversify out further when there are hundreds of posts made about a single topic every week, not just one post like we see here.

Let me make an example.

a Year from now, this place gets oh say 1000 posts a day, 500 of those posts are in general, 400 of those 500 are about one topic, well that one topic then gets its own section.

If you break a board up without enough visitors/posters then you just spread the information WAY to thin to be found easily.

So unless we see 20,30 topics a day about a certain topic we should not go and freak and say lets create a new section about it.

Originally posted by Annette
I simply don't understand this push-push-push, let's make this forum better, as if it were somehow broken to start.

I don't think anyone here thinks that this forum is "broken".

Everyone is here to help out and learn. Making suggestions and looking for ways to improve the board is part of that.

Originally posted by tabernack
I do believe that the structure of WHT should reflect this...

Yes... doing so would be better, no doubt about this.

This is a waste of time and decreases the efficiency of this forum (hence using more resources whether it be in GB, Moderators, etc.., etc....

Uh... oh... this didn't strike me earlier. Yes, you have brought up another important reason why this forum should be better structured. It would definitely mean a considerable amount of lesser GB consumed, lesser CPU resources, lesser expense for Matt, lesser Moderator intervention, and last but not the least, lesser inconvenience to most of us too.

I think that defining the forums to clearly reflect the differences between these two types of posts would be better for everyone.

The example you earlier suggested (but subsequently deleted) that the forum should be better structured was a fantastic one.

Please allow me to recall that example. It takes Dana's original suggestion to even a more refined and logical level than I myself suggested before.

This is the example that Tabernack had suggested:

At the top level, divide the forum first into two categories:

1. Technical/Advice

2. Opinions/Reviews

Distribute all the other forums under these.

That was an excellent suggestion he made.

Moreover, another necessary third top level category could be

3. Advertising/Commercial

These three would take care of the new structure... the beauty of Tabernack's suggestion lies in its sheer simplicity. It definitely is more practical. Do most of us now agree or disagree?

Don't get me wrong, I think this forum is amazing, but that shouldn't stop us at looking for ways to improve it.

Yes... that is exactly my thinking too. I have become addicted to this forum, like many others here, and just wish it to become a better place if there is a general consensus on this issue.

But I would want this to happen only on one condition... and that is if the majority of us expressed a similar desire... not otherwise.

Annette, and the some of the other members subsequently, have already offered their opinions on this issue. They are all valid points too. This is not really a matter about who is really right or wrong here...because it is just a matter of our individual opinions. In the end, if the general consensus here is that the forum should stay the way it is, that's fine with me too.

It is just that I did not want to let go of this opportunity since so many of us have been often commenting on similar lines recently.

~ Learner

[Edited by Learner on 10-02-2000 at 07:53 PM]

Originally posted by tabernack
Originally posted by Annette
I simply don't understand this push-push-push, let's make this forum better, as if it were somehow broken to start.

I don't think anyone here thinks that this forum is "broken".

Everyone is here to help out and learn. Making suggestions and looking for ways to improve the board is part of that.

There does seem to be some sort of urgency underlying Learner's every post, in fact. From renovating the topic structure (technical already exists, advertising already exists) to the "let's increase registrations and traffic" type stuff. There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve a forum - any forum. There is something wrong with suggesting change just for change's sake. While it may seem that splitting things out further than they are is a good idea right now, you run a huge risk of a particular topic not getting much traffic (the technical forum at this moment, for instance), or turning into one giant flamefest that no one will read (thus increasing any dissatisfaction that might already exist, no matter how low-level, getting bombarded with spam, passive or otherwise, and increasing the moderators' tasks as well). The usefulness of the forum declines as a direct result.

The way to improve a forum - again, any forum - is by convincing people to share the knowledge they have instead of lurking in the shadows, which is what most people do. Cosmetic changes do nothing to forward the idea that a particular forum is more useful than others of its type.

[Edited by Annette on 10-02-2000 at 07:56 PM]

It was only an idea..and idea I threw out because people seemed un happy about the 1st post..and now look at what this thread has become.

*passes around the soothing tea*

Relax peoples :)

Actually, Dana, I was about to ask you for some camomile or chrysanthemum tea..... Got any? :D

Originally posted by Annette

...you run a huge risk of a particular topic not getting much traffic (the technical forum at this moment, for instance)....

That's exactly what I mean. The technical forum doesn't get any traffic because the technical posts are mixed in with every other kind of post. The reason? The only reason I can think of is due to the way the topics are structured.

I would love to be able to come to WHT, and go directly to to a technical forum if I was looking for answers to something technical, or looking to share my knowledge on something technical. And vice versa, I would love to be able to go straight to a "Webhost Reviews and Opinions" forum, if I was looking for opinions and reviews on a particular hosts.

It would just make things much more efficient and than having to filter through other irrelevant posts (irrelevant in the context of what you are looking for of course)

Pass the tea! :)

It would be nice, Tab, if people would do that. The reality is that most people don't. It isn't because of any organizational issues - after all, the topic is right there for everyone to see. The primary reason is that most people just sort of wander in and post to the first topic they see. There's nothing wrong with that - it's simply a fact of existence on the 'net - and the general forum isn't exactly overrun as much by technical issues as it is by other types of posts which would be better suited elsewhere: spam/passive ads, which are diminishing daily, and general chitchat, which is the result of a thread running it's course and drifting off into other subjects.

.... Which, of course, this thread is the perfect example.

I was about to go back and edit my post to say just that, BC...

:stickout:

Last post, hehe.

I do agree that newbies usually go to the "Main" forum. The problem is that the "Technical Forum" is a sub category of "Business Forums". Now, if I were a newbie, I would not wander into a "Business forum". Just sounds too serious. Which brings me back to my point of the structure of the forums.

My suggestion (as Learner pointed out):

3 Main Headings:

1) Technical / Support Forums

2) Reviews / Opinions Forums

3) Advertising / Commercial Forums


And then a couple subcategories under each, for example:


1) Technical / Support Forums:

A. Hardware

B. Software

2) Reviews / Opinions:

A. General Webhosts Discussion

B. Hate your host? Post here.

C. Love your host? Post here.

3)Advertising / Commercial

A. Sell your Hosting services here.

B. Solicit Hosting services here.

C. Check out my website type posts here.

D. Anything goes here?


Same number of forums = 9, better structure (my opinion of course!) And doesn't intimidate newbies = better participation by everyone.

Oh, well. Good thread overall though, if we hadn't gone so off the original topic.

[Edited by tabernack on 10-02-2000 at 09:01 PM]

Originally posted by BC
Actually, Dana, I was about to ask you for some camomile or chrysanthemum tea..... Got any? :D

of fact I do ! :) Although with my business about to open I feel some strong Earl Grey coming on LOL err or do all you Hosting people just get the IV of Caffine going? *G*

Originally posted by Annette
[QUOTE]There does seem to be some sort of urgency underlying Learner's every post, in fact.

Yes Annette, that is correct. There is definitely some sort of urgency in my every post here... just as there seems to be in yours.

The main reason is, as I said already earlier, that there are so many more web hosting companies out there on the net. More than 16,000 of them according to Duster's recent post in another recent thread.

So why aren't they coming in here to stay? Most peep in to ultimately vanish and forget this forum. Now I vehemently refuse to believe that most of these 16,000 web hosting companies are bad and wicked hosts. That just doesn't sound logical.

If a lot of other web hosting companies did come to stay, the quality of help, immediate assistance, extended knowledge, choice for newbies, etc. would only increase... am I not correct?

This issue has been brought up so many times before by others before me, but maybe I am the first to voice this with so much urgency... I fully agree with you on this. I just hope that we all do a serious rethink on this... and that Matt could really take this forum ahead even faster than it is moving today. I am quite sure most of us really want that to happen... including you.

From renovating the topic structure (technical already exists, advertising already exists) to the "let's increase registrations and traffic" type stuff.

Exactly!!!!! Why has Matt created a public forum such as this in the first place on this subject? To ultimately increase as much as possible the number of registrations (thereby traffic as a result) so that more and more people benefit from this forum... both newbies and regular members.

Matt has done both a very noble and highly commendable job till now. I just wish that his efforts are taken further by pointing to the benefit of the suggestion to make a simple modification in the structure here so that it is a convenience to the majority of us... a convenience not only in reading and searching and categorizing... but also a convenience in getting more and more newbies and web hosting companies to participate.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve a forum - any forum. There is something wrong with suggesting change just for change's sake.

Do my earlier posts really sound like I desire a change just for change's sake? I will leave that for the majority to decide.

While it may seem that splitting things out further than they are is a good idea right now, you run a huge risk of a particular topic not getting much traffic (the technical forum, for instance), or turning into one giant flamefest that no one will read (thus increasing any dissatisfaction that might already exist, no matter how low-level, getting bombarded with spam, passive or otherwise, and increasing the moderators' tasks as well).

It's just that my opinion on this issue differs from yours, Annette. Your descriptive nouns and adjectives above (underlined) are just exaggerating an imaginary problem which will never occur to such a "massive" extent. I never did express myself in such an ambiguous manner above. As a matter of fact, I tried my best to logically analyze all your comments to the best of my limited ability... so that I could to offer as rationale and meaningful an explanation as I could.

But perhaps I am wrong in the end. Hopefully, that would depend on a majority consensus here. But in practicality, that would depend on Matt.

The way to improve a forum - again, any forum - is by convincing people to share the knowledge they have instead of lurking in the shadows, which is what most people do.

Lurking in the shadows????? Most people????? Who are these invisible people????? Maybe I can't see them because they are lurking in the shadows and are invisible!!!!!!

So are we just the select few to be bold enough not to be "lurking in the shadows"?????

I apologize for failing to see any logical basis of your comment here...

But I do agree with the earlier part of your statement you made above... that "The way to improve a forum - again, any forum - is by convincing people to share the knowledge they have". Very true. That is exactly what I am saying too, and happens to be the basis of my extended discussion here.

A few of us here have just been making an attempt to modify Dana's original suggestion for one big reason... to get in so many more of those knowledgeable web hosts to stay in this forum too, including more of those newbies who are currently not as knowledgeable. And it has become public knowledge that many such other hosts and newbies find the constant mutual praising / slamming / spamming /patting-on-each-others-back / advertising etc. commonly found in almost all the threads either totally disgusting or quite irritating. And the majority of us also feel the same way.

However, I would like to point out that I am not pointing fingers at any of the good and honest webhosting companies here. We already have some very good honest webhosting companies here (and yours ranks amongst the top of this list in my eyes) who really take the time, trouble and effort to genuinely help others out. We are all extremely grateful to you and such other web hosts for doing this so regularly... without any monetary gain. And I myself, likewise, suggest to other newbies the names of almost all these good companies too from time to time just like the others. What other choices do I know of anyway???!!!!!!!

Now let us talk about the RULES OF THE FORUM.

What do the rules basically say about the self-advertising issue? The basic premise is that members should not offer their services or voice their offers in any other forum other than the Advertising Forum. Is that not correct?

So it only seems logical enough that most of the oft-repeated standardized praise and criticism should also be made in another dedicated forum similarly. What is the harm in doing this? Will newbies not access the forum? Why shouldn't they if that is the info they are actually looking for in the first place?

I am definitely not against praise and criticism when it is called for, or is justly due. But then... hasn't most of this praise and criticism become so standardized already??!!!! It has become the same over and over again in almost each and every thread that asks for such info.

It really is boring to read this repeatedly on an on... on a daily basis.

Aren't there more or equally good companies out there?
Sure there are.

But why don't we name them too? Simple. We don't know that they exist.

And why don't we know that they exist?
Simple. Because they don't come and stay in here for long.

And why don't they come and stay in here for long?
Because this forum is not succeeding in taking effective remedial steps as fast or as it should. Good moderation will definitely help to some extent. But I am talking of a much bigger picture here.

The real goal here is to now try and increase the choice factor at this stage... both in terms of web hosting companies + in terms of people who are equally qualified to offer technical info and assistance. That would only benefit most of the members of this forum.

Cosmetic changes do nothing to forward the idea that a particular forum is more useful than others of its type.

Does this suggestion really appear to be of a cosmetic nature? Well, not in my eyes in the least. It is my humble opinion that such a change will only benefit and convenience us all even more.

I think I have said enough on this issue already. Again, it is not my intention to publicly prove that either of us is wrong or right... I just feel saddened that I have not succeeded in convincing you yet that Dana's original suggestion was a very good one indeed.

And yes... I would like to have some of that tea too!!! Annette, I invite you to join me at my table for some tea so that we can mutually discuss this between us henceforth!!!!!!!!

Which is translated to: "I hope that this is my last post on this topic. Hasn't enough been said already????!!!!!!" :)

~ Learner

[Edited by Learner on 10-02-2000 at 09:55 PM]

Learner,

Relevant points made, so this is also my last post (hopefully) on this topic. The purpose of my post is only to point out that there are indeed many lurkers around - you would be surprised.

Forums act much like Usenet - many lurk and read instead of posting because they eventually get the info anyway or they're scared to post (for whatever reason).

Thus, are we bold? Maybe, maybe not. Each has his/her own reasons for coming on the board in the first place and getting/sharing useful info. I'll leave that question to others to decide.

Anyway, back to my lunch with chrysanthemum tea... (thanks Dana)

One forums that NEEDS to be created it seems, is a SUGGESTIONS FOR THE BOARD forum. Many people have come up with quite a few things they would like to change and *these* posts seem to be popping up in every forum, and in various threads. The topic was thinkhost, but it has stayed quite far from that.

Please see the new thread I created for this purpose, located here: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=2309

My last post on this, as well, as this is all rather pointless.

There are, at this moment, 558 registered members on the board. Increasing the number of registrants does not equal increased participation, obviously. Increasing traffic for that sake only is useless. Until and unless you can get people to post, either with their questions or with their answers, all of this is irrelevant. The structure does not matter. The supposed intimidation does not matter (and it strikes me as pretty obvious that tons of newbies show up here, posting whatever they like, with no sense of intimidation at all). This is a very welcoming forum, as it should be. You cannot control the way people post when they stumble into a forum - that's simply a fact of life. The only thing you can do is ask them to take their ads to the appropriate forum, or suggest that a topic is better suited for general conversation. If anyone has ever spent any time on Usenet, you know exactly what I mean. Just because this forum is web-based does not exclude it from the general statistics of use.

For my part, I have no particular urgency other than to keep the ads where they belong, and to try and keep some threads intact and on track. This entire topic, stemming, as it does, from a topic started with a particular purpose, is a prime example of the latter. The philosphical discussion could have been sent over to the general discussion area, and some of us would have been happy to ignore it there.

[Edited by Annette on 10-02-2000 at 09:38 PM]

As someone who's been involved in running forums for over 5 years, including a busy commercial forum with over 20,000 members and 1,500 posts per day, average; may I interject a comment from experience?

You don't break up an existing forum section, or create a new one, or restructure your forum, without a compelling reason to do so. And the *only* reason is that the need has already been demonstrated by the membership. How is it demonstrated? By posts in one section or forum so numerous that it is no longer convenient for the membership to track discussions in which they are interested, or so sparse that the section or forum appears uninviting because there are no active discussions at all. Then, and only then, do you tamper with your forum structure. You are battling the habits of your membership when you change "their" forum, and they won't appreciate it unless the changes you implement make their lives here easier.

This is not something that should be subject to a vote. The moderaters/staff of a forum will know when it's time to make a change because they, like everyone else, will realize that the present structure has become too inconvenient to live with comfortably.

Originally posted by Stephanie
Yep, people lurk. It's actually pretty common. I lurked here for months before I registered. Even after registering I didn't post. I only posted because MikeA made me.

:D Yes, Stephanie... LOL!!!!! You are quite right and I understand what you are saying!!! But I wouldn't necessarily use the term "LURK" to describe this sort of activity. "LURKING" automatically implies a very sinister meaning, that is why!!!! :D

What you are referring to are the generally not-so-frequent posters. I don't see anything wrong with that at all :) I myself do not post if the my questions have already been answered by Annette, BC, Chicken, Duster, MikeA, Felix, Kunal and the others... and often I do not need to post because I do not have any further questions. So that makes me a passive reader in the forum on such occasions... which is super!!!!

But then why should such activity be decribed as "LURKING"... especially the phrase "LURKING IN THE SHADOWS" !!!!!!!! It implies that some other newbies or web hosting companies have some ulterior motive for not posting here. And you will agree this is not logical, am I correct? I can understand some may have a "motive" for posting here, but what "motive" could there possibly be for not posting here?????? Most of them aren't criminals or cheats... and are just normal people like all of us.

Just because a newbie or a member prefers to remain silent in here shouldn't be described as "LURKING IN THE SHADOWS" !!! What I am trying to emphasize is that this is a logical choice everyone has, and therefore can, exercise.

I hope that Annette also agrees with me now that using the term "LURKING IN THE SHADOWS" was quite inappropriate here.

That's because I'm not as outgoing as some of the regulars and because usually someone like Duster or Annette says what I would say and more eloquently than I ever could. So I lurk. I bet there are lots of other lurkers here too.

If you do a statiscal analysis, you will note that this forum has a View-to-Post ratio averaging generally between 9:1 to 17:1 ... this simply means that for every 9 to 17 people reading there is 1 person posting. That is a good enough ratio.

I think Deb's post is right on target, the forums shouldn't be changed unless there is a compelling reason to do so.

Thats OK!!!! This is just a matter of a difference in our opinions, that is all!!!

I think with the new moderators, any problems that we MAY have had before will be taken care of now.

Yes... and they are doing their job extremely well... that is already apparent. But then again, the issue I am discussing here isn't about the moderators at all. This suggestion was initially offered by one of our forum moderators herself... Dana. She too clearly felt a need for this... hence she suggested it.

Anyways, if the number of future posts here indicate that the original suggestion was inappropriate, that is fine with me. But I still really wish that more webhosting companies participate here. Of course, it is their choice whether to participate here or not... and it is clearly visible that most of them exercise their choice too stay away ultimately. If you do a search in this forum, you will notice that similar suggestions have often been made before too... with some very valid reasons given.

By their lack of participation in this forum, most of us are affected. More technical information could be obtained about this industry, many more choices would be available, etc. And I really wish this to happen.

~ Learner

Posted by Learner:
I hope that Annette also agrees with me now that using the term "LURKING IN THE SHADOWS" was quite inappropriate here.

No, I certainly do not agree. "Lurking" has been used as an Internet-related term for many years in the context of people reading but not posting (from the very first newsgroups, such as they were, to Usenet as it is today to the web-based forums that are becoming more and more popular). There is nothing derogatory or sinister about it; in fact, many newsgroups, in particular, tell people to lurk before posting as a standard.

http://www.science.uva.nl/~mes/jargon/l/lurker.html
"lurker: n. One of the `silent majority' in a electronic forum; one who posts occasionally or not at all but is known to read the group's postings regularly. This term is not pejorative and indeed is casually used reflexively: "Oh, I'm just lurking." Often used in `the lurkers', the hypothetical audience for the group's flamage-emitting regulars. When a lurker speaks up for the first time, this is called `delurking'."

Originally posted by Annette
..."Lurking" has been used as an Internet-related term...

Yes, you're right, Annette! I didn't know till now that this was an oft-used Internet-related term. :)

Learner
<looking sheepish>