I'm shaking so bad I can hardly type.

John at vBulletin has sent letters to my partner, my service provider, wbcom.net (whoever that is) stating that I'm running a pirated version of vBulletin Board!!
I have a receipt and my credit card was charged.

Why couldn't they just contact me first??

Why contact all them people without affording me the oportunity to show them the receipts that even they have record of. After all, when you purchase it, you have to enter the url where you're going to use it.

I'll be getting my money back and moving to a free board.
I will not do business witth this poor company!

From reading their forums, they've struck me as a bunch of pricks over there anyway. Here's a nice freebie board. ;)

http://www.woltlab.de/en/forum/main.php

I run VB and never had any problems at all, excellent service.

Originally posted by The Realist
I run VB and never had any problems at all, excellent service. I'll take it you've never been to their forum.
As Seer eluded to.............very unprofessional.

Yes I do, I visit everyday and get some great feedback from all users.

Originally posted by The Realist
Yes I do, I visit everyday and get some great feedback from all users. Yeh..........A lot of users are friendly..........Jelsoft on the other hand :rolleyes:

:angry:

I have never dealt with the company direct apart from when I purchased the software.

Perhaps they got the wrong end of the stick but everyone can and does make mistakes.

;)

Maybe this will help you understand my frustration.
This is the letter they distributed without contacting me or even looking at their own members list..............
-------Original Message-------

From: John Percival
Date: Friday, October 05, 2001 08:25:53 AM
To: ***********; *********.com; mweinstein@wbcom.net; abuse@******.com
Subject: http://*************

Greetings,
Please be informed that the site listed in the Subject Line is using
Jelsoft's software - vBulletin (http://www.vbulletin.com/) - without a valid
License in clear violation of Jelsoft's Licensing Agreement. Please see
http://www.vbulletin.com/license.html with questions. The above-listed site
has copied this material and included it on its Web site located at
http://**************/ . I have a good faith belief that use of
the
material in the manner complained of is not authorized by Jelsoft, its
agent, or the law and I believe that this is also in violation of your
acceptable use policies. Please remove this infringing material from your
servers for this violation or disable access to the same.

Every effort has been made to find the name of the registered agent(s) on
the Web site(s) in question, where that information may be incorrect or
fraudluent, we treat you as the proper agent to receive notice of claimed
infringement. I certify that the information in this notification is
accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that I, John Percival - Chief
Technical Officer of Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd, am authorized to act on behalf
of Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd regarding Copyright and License violation issues
and where those agreements have allegedly been infringed.

Regards,

John Percival

Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd

Ascot, Berkshire, UK
A lot of things wrong with that.

Hmm, this really sucks. Why don't you just refuse any action (IF you are REALLY shure about that you have the receipt of the purchase) and wait for their lawsuit and sue them? That way you could get a couple of $1000's out of them. :rolleyes:

I recently purchased a domain and thought about to buy vBulletin and install it. But now.... :eek:

An yes. I had a look at http://www.woltlab.de/en/forum/main.php
Might even be better than vBulletin and the best: IT'S FREE :cool:

I can understand the efforts to protect their product against piracy but unfortunately I feel the vbulletin team has the wrong attuide.

The majority of time all I receive off the staff at the vbulletin.com forums is "enter your customer number and pasword in the profile", making me out to be a criminal. :(

SWR, have you contacted Jelsoft to to state your case? You might consider giving them a fair chance to look into it and make amends.

Just a thought. :)

That Jelsoft for you.

That WOLTLAB board looks very interesting! Looks like vB, but it's FREE! I say it's worth a try.

Looks like you have a new site

"http://www.YourForumSucks.com".

SoftWareRevue,

Have you contacted a lawyer? If your run a site that is used to make you a profit, this could undermine your charecter, and this act would be considered sladerious/liblious (not sure if spelt correct).


Sometimes that way is the only way to get a point nailed though the thick skulls of corp. people....

Why the hell have I been brought into this?:unhappy:

Now I realize. The IP address is in our block.

Sorry... going back into my shell.

I just went over to vB's forums, where I'm a regular poster, and noticed a poll by one of the owners of Jelsoft. Its concerning piracy. They want to make it so people who put their license number and password in their profile can view and post on certain forums...

Now from a outside perspective this looks all nice and great, but from people like me, who own and operate no one site, this is horrible. I don't own my own site so never thought that I would need a vB license, but for me to offer my help at vB or get help for people who I work for I would have to get a license... You know what made vB great was the good software, and a openly run business, unlike what Infopop is like. But now they are going more and more gestopo (sorry spelling again) everyday....

Piracy is I'm sure a problem but running your business into the ground is not the way to fix it...

Originally posted by alchiba
SWR, have you contacted Jelsoft to to state your case? You might consider giving them a fair chance to look into it and make amends.

Just a thought. :)


Well alchiba,

they had a fair chance... They could have asked for the licence information, before mailing the privider saying..


Every effort has been made to find the name of the registered agent(s) on
the Web site(s) in question..


and


I certify that the information in this notification is
accurate


These are plain out lies and have now make me look like a criminal...
They never once tried to contact me and ask for my licence information, NOT ONCE!..
They just mail my provider saying I am a CRIMINAL!

http://www.YourForumSucks.com

Does have a nice ring to it :D

They're the "no-right click" company of the forum world.
If you know what I mean..

ProHacker,

This all happen because I refuse to make my Licence #
and Password public domain.. and enter it into my profile... I
said if you wish you can email me and I will give you the information..
But I know you have it in your database that I have a licence..
So why do I need to release this to all the Moderator's/Admin's..
They are not employed by Jelsoft.. They do not need this information..

It just sickens me... You would think having to pay so much for a board..
You would get a little support, but they are not out to
provide support for customers.. just try to get more money more money..

*sigh*

PS: They also banned me from the forums..

Glad my money was well spent!

Originally posted by WeinBar
Why the hell have I been brought into this?:unhappy:

Heh, Well anyway I have a licence and they never once
mailed me before writing to you and me....

So Unprofessional!

-----------
PS: I am very new here.. I read in the profiels..

"One hyperlink per signature.?"

Only I tried [url] and <a href=

Can anyone help as to how to make my one hyperlink? :)

I'm sure you've seen it but www.xmbforums.com is starting to take off, the newest version 1.5 is in beta and looks good... And hell its free too....

Originally posted by YourHostSuck
ProHacker,

This all happen because I refuse to make my Licence #
and Password public domain.. and enter it into my profile... I
said if you wish you can email me and I will give you the information..
But I know you have it in your database that I have a licence..
So why do I need to release this to all the Moderator's/Admin's..
They are not employed by Jelsoft.. They do not need this information..

It just sickens me... You would think having to pay so much for a board..
You would get a little support, but they are not out to
provide support for customers.. just try to get more money more money..

*sigh* FYI, we (vB mods) don't get to see your actual license number or password, all we see is a icon/label indicating whether a licensed vB owner has entered it in their profile - exactly like the icq online/offline indicator.

I'm a vB owner myself before i ever become a vB moderator. And us mods don't get paid it's voluntary what i do.

Originally posted by The Prohacker
SoftWareRevue,

Have you contacted a lawyer? If your run a site that is used to make you a profit, this could undermine your charecter, and this act would be considered sladerious/liblious (not sure if spelt correct).


Sometimes that way is the only way to get a point nailed though the thick skulls of corp. people.... \

Yes, there has to be some kind of action to take on Jelsoft..
For defamation of character or something..
As this news will sway people from visiting your site, and have them going around saying you are a criminal...
NOT GOOD.

They took no action to try to get my licence information..
Not 1 email, not one PM at the forums... Nothing..
They just start telling everyone I am a criminal....
Unprofessional and Illegal!

Jelsoft are not the god's of the earth and are subject to the rules and regulations of conducting business.

eva2000,

I have heard this before, but still do not see why/or feel comfortable
to enter my customer number and password into my profile..

and because of this I am labeled a criminal, and attacked
for no reason..

<edit> and banned from the forums....</edit>

Originally posted by YourHostSuck
eva2000,

I have heard this before, but still do not see why/or feel comfortable
to enter my customer number and password into my profile..

and because of this I am labeled a criminal, and attacked
for no reason..

<edit> and banned from the forums....</edit> this is coming from me personally... i'd like to understand why you don't feel comfortable with entering the information? Is it because you're afraid the info will fall into the wrong hands?

What's wrong with asking for the only identification method that us voluntary moderators have in helping a valid vB license holder with their problems? - A method which prevents us from seeing customer info but still allows us to indentify who to help. We need vB license owners to help us help you.

Us moderators volunteer our time to support vB owners, but how would you feel paying for your vB license only to have several dozen pirated vB owners taking up my time and other volunteer mod's time with vB support issues and you having to wait hours, days or weeks to get your issues answered? [Since if we didn't have this policy i wouldn't be able to tell who has a valid license and who doesn't - i could be helping someone who doesn't have a license while someone with a valid license has to wait until i finish with the pirate]

When you buy a computer system and something goes wrong and you need to take it back to get repaired, they'd ask you for proof of purchase in the way of a receipt of purchase invoice.

When you buy a car and need to get it repaired they'd ask you for your license details and rego stuff i suppose (never owned a car just assuming).

How would you feel if someone stole your computer system used it, broke it and then just went back to your store and say ... hey i need this fixed?

this is coming from me personally... i'd like to understand why you don't feel comfortable with entering the information? Is it because you're afraid the info will fall into the wrong hands?


I just do not feel that it needs to be done, and yes I do not
feel it is secure....
If Piracy is such a problem, make the forums private.
You would get a login for the forums when you buy vB or something....
But do not proclaim everyone that refuses to enter this
information into their profile to be a criminal.. and treat
them as such!


Us moderators volunteer our time to support vB owners, but how would you feel paying for your vB license only to have several dozen pirated vB owners taking up my time and other volunteer mod's time with vB support issues and you having to wait hours, days or weeks to get your issues answered?


How would you feel paying for a board, only to be treated like
a criminal and get no support because you do not see the reason
or feel it is secure to enter your customer name/password into your profile.
I made no request for support, only helped people in the
forums... Yet I was banned from the forums..
Me a paying (valid) customer banned from the forums...
Why?
Because I did not see the reason to have to enter my Lic#/Password,
into my profile and they never cared to email me asking for the information.

------

YourHostSucks.com!

PS:
If we are plugging free boards, heres my plug: http://hescripts.com/

:)

Originally posted by YourHostSuck


I just do not feel that it needs to be done, and yes I do not
feel it is secure....
If Piracy is such a problem, make the forums private.
You would get a login for the forums when you buy vB or something....
But do not proclaim everyone that refuses to enter this
information into their profile to be a criminal.. and treat
them as such!

How would you feel paying for a board, only to be treated like
a criminal and get no support because you do not see the reason
or feel it is secure to enter your customer name/password into your profile.
I made no request for support, only helped people in the
forums... Yet I was banned from the forums..
Me a paying (valid) customer banned from the forums...
Why?
Because I did not see the reason to have to enter my Lic#/Password,
into my profile and they never cared to email me asking for the information.

well personally i and a majority of valid license holders won't have a problem with entering their license info. We having nothing to hide so why would we think that Jelsoft would perceive me/us as pirates?

If i walked in with my broken down computer to the retailer's shop and demanded my pc to be fixed but refused to show them proof of purchase, they'd turn me away even if i was a valid owner of my pc!

As to whether you have asked for support i wouldn't know since i mainly focused in mysql and server config support forums. edit: does a thread titled 'VBSyndicate Hack V1' and asking support regarding cronjobs ring a bell?

Hello everyone.

I am John Percival, the perpetrator of all these deeds, here to try and explain a little of what has happened, what is happening, and what is to happen with regards to Jelsoft's attitude to piracy and with 'YourHostSucks' case in particular.

I will deal with 'YourHostSucks' first. I am not going to explain in detail what the issues were there, but suffice to say, he has not explained the full story. However for his/her privacy, I am not going to divulge the full details - I will leave that in their hands to do that.

Every day, I get approximately 30 emails reporting a board either using vBulletin illegally, or distributing vBulletin. That is very depressing, let me tell you. To know that there are that many people out there getting for free what others have paid for, and taking money that myself and the other Jelsoft employees need for living, buying food, etc, and have worked hard for is just not fair. If I were to say that we had a piracy rate of 50%, I would probably be underestimating the true extent of the problem. 50% . That's not just some small-time minor events, that is one in every two boards being run illegally. That is very depressing.

In dealing with this many pirates every day, I get a little fed up. At first looks, it looked like 'YourHostSucks' had not been using his license within our stated license agreement. Via the forums I asked him to email me, and since he did not, I assumed the worst. As it turns out, it was not his fault, but rather someone else, loosely associated with him. I have since apologised to him, and taken the issue up with the correct party.

Having put up my defence on that issue, I would like to take up the issue of general piracy, and its effect on vBulletin. With a piracy rate as high as 50%, we get a little frustrated answering support questions from people who have not paid for support. We have looked at several ways of implementing filters and ways of preventing the questions getting through, and the final proposal that I put to the community from the Jelsoft team, is the one in the aforementioned poll. However, the idea of that poll was not to say "This is what we are going to do" but rather to say "What do you think about this". We are trying to do this to help the community, and our customers in particular, which is why we are asking them -- because in the end their ease of use of our support systems is more important to us than blocking the pirates out. We are trying to come to a compromise where the legitimate people will not be affected, while those who should not be requesting support cannot request support. When you ring up Microsoft support, do they not ask for your product number? Is there a problem with us asking for a product number, especially since your support request is dealt with personally, quickly and efficiently?

It seemed like I had been slightly unfairly represented here. I am not trying to say that I did not make a mistake in 'YourHostSucks' case, but I would like to show that it was not completely unjustified, and Jelsoft is not out to make life difficult for our customers, just to make sure only our customers receive the correct support.

Regards,
John Percival
vBulletin

well personally i and a majority of valid license holders won't have a problem with entering their license info. We having nothing to hide so why would we think that Jelsoft would perceive me/us as pirates?


Are you trying to say I have something to hide?
I had link to my site.. (Forums) I was hiding nothing..



As to whether you have asked for support i wouldn't know since i mainly focused in mysql and server config support forums. edit: does a thread titled 'VBSyndicate Hack V1' and asking support regarding cronjobs ring a bell?


This request was made before they attacked me about my licence
not being in my profile..
Get the facts straight and do not be childish about stuff..
It was that thread that they replied to my request with..
"I will help you if you enter your licenece information into your profile"

Note: My request for support was ignored then deleted...

---
After they refused to give me support If I did not enter this into my
profile.. I did not ask for support..


(FYI)

I would like to take this chance to formally apologise to you for the
mistake here.


If I had something to hide would Jelsoft send me a letter saying this?

I am not going to make my reply public to JohnPercival post..

But from how I read it.. he is still calling me a criminal..

I will deal with 'YourHostSucks' first. I am not going to explain in detail what the issues were there, but suffice to say, he has not explained the full story. However for his/her privacy, I am not going to divulge the full details - I will leave that in their hands to do that.


I will consult with the proper people on how to address this now.

Yourhostsucks,

I am not calling you a criminal, as I now know that is not the case. However, I am equally not going to vindicate myself by explaining the details of this issue, for your privacy. I will allow you to explain if you wish, but I am not in a position to reveal any more details.

Regards,

John Percival
vBulletin

Aloha
I thought UBB had bad support they suck over at infopoop really bad absolute frigin morons.
I thought VB might be a bit cooler now I have to wonder ???
I am not sure what I think
I do know if you fired off a letter to people above my head saying I was doing illegal activites without first contacting me
I would have you in Court very fast and try to make sure that I dragged in every one touching you including your server makers upstream provider etc...
as most would not want this and may try to cut free
I am lucky as I have free unlimited legal resources that are very good !!!!

I must say I am getting sick of people runnig over people all for there own greed I am now thinking that VB is the same way ????
is this true ???
piracy is piracy and should not be allowed but if you are hurting paying honest customers and making it hard on them to make sure you get the extra buck you are not doing your customers any good ????????

so far unless more is said I am holding off buying anymore vb boards (I quit buying infopoop boards)

so this is my thought
I am taking half and half and trying to make a whole out of this.

I would just like to highlight this sentence from my penultimate paragraph:because in the end their ease of use of our support systems is more important to us than blocking the pirates out.
We are not out to be greedy, but to give out the best support to our customers. When the moderators get depressed and come complaining to me that there are too many pirates free-loading, taking up their valuable time, the onus is on me to try and find a solution. I really want to provide the best customer service, and I am committed to making sure we provide this, in a friendly manner. I am trying to find that solution at the moment, but this inevitable needs some experimenting to get the balance right, and some learning experiences along the way. That is why we are soliciting community feedback on our proposal right now:
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=181578#post181578

I would just like to add in my defence that the email that I sent was not unprovoked or without initial contact. However, it was a mistake, aimed at the wrong recipient, so I have apologised for that (see the quote from Yourhostsucks).

Regards,
John

Aloha
just a quick note
the reason I mentione the half and half at the bottome is there are always 2 sides to each story you have to take half of each and throw away
I do understand that it was not unprovoked but it seems you really took a big jump to go ver like this rather than trying to first find out what is up ???
now I am not sure how many times you tried or if you sent out emails ???
so this may be the case ???
if you are tired of supporting people that have not paid why not have them put in a password and user that relates to the lic info that way it would cross check it adn you would know if they are legit ???

I can understand that piracy has to stop but agian I say not at the paying customers expense.

at least the fact you apologized is cool

infopoop would not even do that


Originally posted by JohnPercival
I would just like to highlight this sentence from my penultimate paragraph:
We are not out to be greedy, but to give out the best support to our customers. When the moderators get depressed and come complaining to me that there are too many pirates free-loading, taking up their valuable time, the onus is on me to try and find a solution. I really want to provide the best customer service, and I am committed to making sure we provide this, in a friendly manner. I am trying to find that solution at the moment, but this inevitable needs some experimenting to get the balance right, and some learning experiences along the way. That is why we are soliciting community feedback on our proposal right now:
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=181578#post181578

I would just like to add in my defence that the email that I sent was not unprovoked or without initial contact. However, it was a mistake, aimed at the wrong recipient, so I have apologised for that (see the quote from Yourhostsucks).

Regards,
John

It seems to me you need to do a bit more digging before you send out notices to your customers' business associates that in this case do amount to libel.

Don't you keep a current database of your paying customers? :eek:

I work for a software developer.
When we get a tech support request it takes about 15 seconds to see if the person is in our database. If not, we check to seek if their company is in the database. We don't even need the license number.

We would never dream of handling a suspected piracy issue so poorly.

I think Jelsoft are a very professional company and have nothing but good things to say about them.

JohnPercival,

If any company did to us, what you did to "YourHostSuck", they would be handing over their profits to us for a very long time. I suggest you review the law with regards to this. It may save you some serious trouble in the future.

PS - I am basing this off the thread and what has been presented. I have nothing against your company what so ever, I only wish to point out the seriousness of your mistake as a company.

Originally posted by Nicholas Brown
I think Jelsoft are a very professional company and have nothing but good things to say about them.

I couldn't agree with you more.... :D

Kudos x2

Originally posted by Nicholas Brown
I think Jelsoft are a very professional company and have nothing but good things to say about them.
I normally don't post to say me too, but me too :).

On the legal front, you may be pissed, but winning a slander, liable or defamation suit requires that you show a tangible loss associated with the action. Proof of this is difficult at best. You can always sue, but don't expect to even get before a judge unless you can prove real losses.

-t

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
JohnPercival,

If any company did to us, what you did to "YourHostSuck", they would be handing over their profits to us for a very long time. I suggest you review the law with regards to this. It may save you some serious trouble in the future.
[clip]
Hardly.

I've been on both ends of a number of civil suits, including a professional defamation of character suit with a multi-million dollar settlement as a result. It takes much more than what Jelsoft did to even get in front of a judge for an initial hearing.

Proof of tangible loss associated with the act in question is where your attorney will start. Just being pissed at being poorly treated as a customer is not likely to get you anything more than your license fee returned, and is certainly not going to put Jelsoft's profits at risk.

-t

The next person that threatens to sue...is gonna get sued!

Ooops :eek: :eek:

I've been on both ends of a number of civil suits, including a professional defamation of character suit with a multi-million dollar settlement as a result. It takes much more than what Jelsoft did to even get in front of a judge for an initial hearing.

Are you a lawyer? Or just another person who has friends of friends who are lawyers.

I will not get into with you. That is what *lawyers* are for. And for your knowledge, loss does not have to be monetary. Contacting someones business partners with false cliams then admitting it was wrong, is not good business no matter how you slice it.

<Note to self. Add licenece information into profile>

I thought jelsoft had you enter the site the license is used for in their database. I had to as well as a client. If the site wasn't entered in the database and no contact could be made then I can see how a problem would arise. Also, it does take quite a bit of time with so many boards being reported to hunt down contact information for everything. There should be a little more effort in contacting the site owner, but I can see how both sides can be frustrated by what's happening.

I myself will continue to use vbulletin and purchase more boards if needed from them. I won't be entering my information into the board though. I say, have people login to their control panel using that username and password and then they can go through there to the forums. It may be perfectly secure, but it just feels too open to put information into. When making something like that for clients, how they feel is something to put on the high priority list (as well as the actual security).

I would like to say...

1) They should have contacted me and asked for my licence number first.
Before mailing my provider saying I was a criminal and running pirated software.. Regardless of what other concerns jelsoft may have had with other sites...
I run YourHostSucks.com.

2) This all was done because I refuse to enter my Licence number and password into my profile on the forums..

Well now it is even worse, because although they say opps*..
They then turned around and made my license number and password public
domain by entering it into my profile when they took off the ban
from their board.. I am very upset about this, as that is
exactly why this happen and not what I was willing to do..
They told me on the forums "If you do not enter it we will not give you support" I was ok with that, I did not ever ask for support after that.. Just help and tell people how to improve their hacks...
I was fine with not putting it in my profile and not getting support because of that.

But I think they were VERY wrong to enter it for me!
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I DID NOT WANT..
But it can not be undone now..

I am very lost as to how to address this problem as well now,
so I will continue to seek advise from people that can help me.


PS: <edit>, my site has disappeared...
I hope the files were not deleted as well, as I spent alot of time working on the forums.
*goes to mail provider to find out why my site is gone*

John Percival

First of all, if you are using vBulletin legally or illegally doesn't matter when it comes to support. If someone is having a problem with a pirated vBulletin then you can be sure that 50 other people (legal or pirated) will want to know the same answer too. So don't use the argument that you want to "help" only the legal users.

Your only argumentation is that you want to make more money and you are too cheap to put in proper pirate protection.

End of Story

Aloha
to umbilly and thewitt
I always like reading your psots you both sound very educated to things and may be a bit more realistic in things than some ;)

one thing I must say and not meaning anything against anyone
both are correct with the lawyer thing

anything can get in front of a judge if you want to try hard enough or have enough money
a good lawyer will tell you if it is worth it if not he might say I am not taking this etc...
but I do know from first hand exp and having a brother who is a lawyer that
if you have the resources almost anything is possible

this is the sad thing about law
sometimes it can be a double edge sword

I argue with my brother against cases sometimes (stupid me) even if someone gets off he has a reason why it will help others later in cases
arghhhhh
I hate law legal crap

I just wish people could be more cool and have better ethics

I know I value people more than money and will not deal with people that seem uncool and are not willing to try other means of resolving issues other than with threats etc...
so in this instance I feel that VB was ethically wrong in doing what they did and hurt good customers to try to get a few people who are going to get there board from Warez sites anyway.

they need to seperate there attacks on illegal sites from there legit customers.

yes stop piracy but not at expenense of honest users.

VB listen people who are going to steal your board are going to steal your board you re not going to stop %95 of them
they will just open another site etc.. with another domain etc...

the fact you pissed off a good user and it has been read by all these people should show you that the power of keeping customers is very important
hope you can learn from this
if you had just taken a extra second and contacted the owner you would have avoided all this.

With scripts being put on other servers that don't require the admin to install them, it's extremely hard if not impossible at this time to protect anything. Yes, a customer that doesn't have a pirated copy may still have the same question, so let them ask it. The point to the piracy people asking questions is, they'd like to deal with questions from those that bought the board, not from those that didn't.

They got off to a bad start the way they did it and people take it hard when they impliment these things later.

I'm not saying I agree with the way they handled this though, but it seems they're getting ripped apart here out of nowhere. People turn on a company in a heartbeat anymore...

if you had just taken a extra second and contacted the owner you would have avoided all this.


That says it all.. :rolleyes:

JustinK

First of all you can protect php scripting. John Percival said that he is losing "50%" of his revenue which if that is true then he would of protected his scripts.

"The point to the piracy people asking questions is, they'd like to deal with questions from those that bought the board, not from those that didn't."

You are talking about a zero sum gains. If don't want a question to be asked by a pirated vBulletin then how long do you think it will take for a legal vBulletin to ask the same question?

I'm just saying don't try to feed me this bull about only "helping" the people who bought legal versions. They want to make more money and that's that.

This all happen because I refuse to make my Licence #
and Password public domain.. and enter it into my profile... I
said if you wish you can email me and I will give you the information..


it doesnt make it public at all - so that statement is false. I added mine, everyone I know who owns vB added theirs - whats the big deal???


But I know you have it in your database that I have a licence..
So why do I need to release this to all the Moderator's/Admin's..
They are not employed by Jelsoft.. They do not need this information


They dont need the information? hah. Ok, you write a PHP script that you sell for $250. Your depending on people to buy it to pay your rent/mortgage/food/daily goods, running of the business etc etc

I come along and buy your script, and give it to all my friends for free. Lets say I give it to 10 people...you just lost $2500. These 10 friends then email you for support or post in your forums if you have them. Your now giving them support for a product they didnt buy.

Seem right to you? it sure as hell dont sound right to me!

purple, how then might you suggest protecting a script and yet still allowing people the ability to change the script? He's doing what he can to stop people from using it illegally for the type of product he's using. With the number of complaints and people using the board, you're bound to run into an innocent bystander that bought the product. Of course he's in it for making money. If he wasn't then he wouldn't be charging money for it now would he?

It may not take that long for a paid user to ask the same question, but why should the pirated user benefit from it? If you look at it from the standpoint of posts being from:
pirated
pirated
paid
pirated
pirated
paid

It's going to take longer to get to those users that paid for their boards. Cut out the pirated punks and get a better response time to those that paid.

it doesnt make it public at all - so that statement is false. I added mine, everyone I know who owns vB added theirs - whats the big deal???


You did not script it, and you have no idea what it does,
The big deal is they have my information and I do not feel
secure having it in some forum profile....
I can not have my own feelings?


They dont need the information? hah. Ok, you write a PHP script that you sell for $250. Your depending on people to buy it to pay your rent/mortgage/food/daily goods, running of the business etc etc


They do not need it in my profile, they have it in another database...
This enter it into your profile is something I have never seem before, and is not in their licence agreement...
and I was not willing to do..
They said fine, but if you do not put it into your profile, we will
not give you support.. I said fine and thought it was understood.

But then all this happens, without one prior mail to me asking
for my information, just a letter to my provider saying i was running a illegal board...
Then they go and do exactly what I was not willing to do,
and enter it into my profile... VERY VERY UNPROFESSIONAL,
and Just plain wrong... I was willing to not have it in my profile
and not receive support.


Now because of all this, me a legal customer will (i am sure)
have a VERY hard time getting any support if I have my customer
details in my profile or not.. and that's just wrong... I did nothing
to jelsoft.. I own my board, but now I am just a evil person
that got mad when my provider was sent a letter that I was a criminal... and in return will likely be ignored in the forums....

This was a very wrong action for jelsoft to take,
and now I will have to suffer because of their actions...

You did not script it, and you have no idea what it does,
The big deal is they have my information and I do not feel
secure having it in some forum profile....

Your right - I didnt, but neither did you.


I can not have my own feelings?


I didnt say you couldnt


They do not need it in my profile, they have it in another database...
This enter it into your profile is something I have never seem before, and is not in their licence agreement...
and I was not willing to do..
They said fine, but if you do not put it into your profile, we will
not give you support.. I said fine and thought it was understood.


The information stored in the customer database isnt assosiated with your forum username so



But then all this happens, without one prior mail to me asking
for my information, just a letter to my provider saying i was running a illegal board...
Then they go and do exactly what I was not willing to do,
and enter it into my profile... VERY VERY UNPROFESSIONAL,


Well, I dont know the reasons behind why your board was speculated to be illegal so Im not going to dicsuss that.


and Just plain wrong... I was willing to not have it in my profile
and not receive support.


its a simple rule. if you dont enter the details, you dont get support.

The only people I have seen complaining about having to do this are pirates. Now Im not saying your a pirate, Im just stating an observation.


Now because of all this, me a legal customer will (i am sure)
have a VERY hard time getting any support if I have my customer
details in my profile or not.. and that's just wrong... I did nothing
to jelsoft.. I own my board, but now I am just a evil person
that got mad when my provider was sent a letter that I was a criminal... and in return will likely be ignored in the forums....


What is the problem with entering your details in your profile? I dont get it - maybe Im dumb :cartman:


This was a very wrong action for jelsoft to take,
and now I will have to suffer because of their actions... [/B]

again, I dont know the specifics of why the action was taken.

I am not going to go over your post, as it is just far to much junk for me to sort out..

But if I do not enter my details into my profile I am a criminal (O I see)
It has also been proven that I do have a licence and they said *opps* we are sorry....
All they had to do was shoot me off a email asking for my lic details... But they did no such thing just mail my provider
saying they took every action to try to get my customer information.. when they took no action at all... complete lies...

What they did was speculate and assume, without getting any facts or asking for any information...

Originally posted by YourHostSuck
I am not going to go over your post, as it is just far to much junk for me to sort out..

Thanks - I think your posts are full of Junk too.

You still havent answered my question - whats the problem with entering your license details???

Anyways - I have work to do, lots of work - Im not gonna spend my time arguing.

I still stand by my statement - I think Jelsoft is a very professional company and I have enjoyed using their product and support, and will continue to in the future.

And FYI, My license details are in my profile.

The only people I have seen complaining about having to do this are pirates.



I personally don't have a problem with entering information into a profile its the new idea that they are thinking about, making the forums private.

I don't own a site so haven't seen the need to buy a license. I enjoy helping people and as a admin on several sites that use vB I can sometimes be of asstance to a user when a mod or developer isn't around. But if they make the forums private I can no longer help unless I buy a license, now why should I pay to help someone with the talents I worked hard to make such as programming? I understand that I am a minority but my simply being here should prove that I'm here to help people, I do not own a hosting company but sometimes I may be of asstance to a user.

Hi Prohacker :)

Just to clarify....when I say the people complaining I am talking about the Enter your license details only, not the private forums :)

I personally don't have a problem with entering information into a profile its the new idea that they are thinking about, making the forums private.

I think there are two aspects to the private forums at the moment, but the majority of people are saying the forums go private. I havent voted as of yet ;)


I don't own a site so haven't seen the need to buy a license. I enjoy helping people and as a admin on several sites that use vB I can sometimes be of asstance to a user when a mod or developer isn't around. But if they make the forums private I can no longer help unless I buy a license, now why should I pay to help someone with the talents I worked hard to make such as programming? I understand that I am a minority but my simply being here should prove that I'm here to help people, I do not own a hosting company but sometimes I may be of asstance to a user.

Yeah - you do help out quite a lot around the forums - I have noticed :) Maybe John and James could let you in as a VIP? :D

Nicholas,

I have said many times that i do not feel comfortable entering this information, you just do not take the time to read...
And your post was only stuff that had no meaning and was no way to answer...
Your everyone needs to have the same views as me or else they
must be a criminal and thier stuff is illegal approach to things
is unreal... simple fact I do not even need a reason....

And (FYI) My information is in my profile, due to the unprofessional actions of jelsoft putting it there....

Correct I am not going to argue over why i will not enter the information into a public forum profile over and over... so please
stop asking....

Originally posted by YourHostSuck
PS: They also banned me from the forums..

Glad my money was well spent!

You should ban them right back. I just checked out your site and sometime today, John Percival signed in to your forums as a new user. The registered date in 10/5/2001 and he has zero posts.

hehe, well I have been unbaned from their forums now,
and I am sure John will most likely never post in my forums
anyway.. :) I would never ban anyone without good reason...

It makes you think if John is related to my ex-wife Her last name
was percival.. maybe she's trying to get me back? (lol)
(note: I am not saying they are or anything, this statement is just for fun and in no way can be misread as a insult or anything otherwise
on any of the said parties.)

Originally posted by purplemokey
John Percival

First of all, if you are using vBulletin legally or illegally doesn't matter when it comes to support. If someone is having a problem with a pirated vBulletin then you can be sure that 50 other people (legal or pirated) will want to know the same answer too. So don't use the argument that you want to "help" only the legal users.

Your only argumentation is that you want to make more money and you are too cheap to put in proper pirate protection.

End of Story



Your comment implies that it is OK to steal software. As such I would disagree.

Your comment implies that it is OK to steal software. As such I would disagree


No, I think he is saying.. They are more worried about making money than helping customers.
I do not see how he is saying piracy is ok... :)

Originally posted by YourHostSuck
I do not see how he is saying piracy is ok... :)

if you are using vBulletin legally or illegally doesn't matter

You forgot what comes right after


when it comes to support. If someone is having a problem with a pirated vBulletin then you can be sure that 50 other people (legal or pirated) will want to know the same answer too. So don't use the argument that you want to "help" only the legal users.


Which is clearly saying the pirates will get support no matter
if they post in the forums or not, because paid customers will
have the same problem...


*read*


It does not say "I love pirates" lol..

True, but why should they get to post up for support when they need it? Let them wait for a paid customer to ask.

(sidenote: what's with the vbulletin url code in yer sig?)

Nicholas Brown quoting me
if you are using vBulletin legally or illegally doesn't matter (I like how he kinda dropped the last part of the sentence)

Okay Nicholas and Mike can you two even read? I like how you quote me and then leave out the rest of the sentence. It's like geez maybe then no one will notice especially when the whole quote is one post up.

How would you like it if I quoted you as ...
Originally posted by Nicholas Brown
I ... like ... little ... boys


Second, I don't even use vBulletin but I will call John Percival's bull about "caring" about his customers. Just admit he wants more money.

Third, there are 3 or 4 free boards out there that are the same as vBulletin. There's nothing special about vBulletin.

The only reason people pay for vBulletin is for the support and from the kind of "support" I'm seeing here I think some people might have reservations.

Originally posted by JustinK
True, but why should they get to post up for support when they need it? Let them wait for a paid customer to ask.

(sidenote: what's with the vbulletin url code in yer sig?)

lol, well it says 1 hyperlink in profile.. but I can not figure out how..
Just been trying all kinds of ways.. i shall give up now.. :)


One hyperlink per signature.

Originally posted by JustinK
purple, how then might you suggest protecting a script and yet still allowing people the ability to change the script?

Hey JustinK,

Sure I'll tell you how you can secure your script and prevent $100,000+ in lost revenue but I'll need your purplemokey license number before I give any "support".

Originally posted by JustinK
Of course he's in it for making money. If he wasn't then he wouldn't be charging money for it now would he?

I didn't say John Percival didn't want to make any money. I said John Percival wanted to make 50% more money and on top of that it's a product that is FREE if you go with 4 other boards out there.

Originally posted by JustinK

It may not take that long for a paid user to ask the same question, but why should the pirated user benefit from it? If you look at it from the standpoint of posts being from:
pirated
pirated
paid
pirated
pirated
paid


From what I see it's more like:
paid "i have a new font i want to use"
pirated "how you add a signature?"
pirated "what the hell is a url?"
paid "what is a url?"
pirated "how do you add new smileys?"
pirated "i can't the font face"
paid "where do i add the signature?"
paid "i stole some smileys and want to add them"

Hey JustinK,

Sure I'll tell you how you can secure your script and prevent $100,000+ in lost revenue but I'll need your purplemokey license number before I give any "support".


:beer:

Originally posted by purplemokey
I didn't say John Percival didn't want to make any money. I said John Percival wanted to make 50% more money and on top of that it's a product that is FREE if you go with 4 other boards out there.

Ok, so let the pirates go out and use any one of the other boards if they don't want to pay. The fact is, unless they (Jelsoft) store the boards on their server(s), it's not pirate proof. They're taking the only measure now that they can take at least to my knowledge. It's not easy and as said before, they're bound to run into an actual customer when going through reported sites.

An Idea for Jelsoft, how about in the user panel (where you access download & license info from) you put an option to add in the username for the support boards. It won't send the license info, just the username to a script/database which is less intrusive in my opinion.

They're taking the only measure now that they can take at least to my knowledge. It's not easy and as said before, they're bound to run into an actual customer when going through reported sites.


Wrong.. so wrong..

My Site was never reported and I was a member in their forums..
A link to my site in my sig, and I was not hiding my site in any way..
This happen because I would not enter my customer information
into my profile if I wanted support..
Well i said fine, and did not enter it and did not request support again....


They should have mailed me first, not my provider demanding they shut down my site......

Just curious, but did you have the website you were using the bulletin board on entered in that control panel they have (where you have to enter your license # & password to enter)? It just seems odd (though these things do happen) that they wouldn't have seen the website in their database.

Originally posted by JustinK


Ok, so let the pirates go out and use any one of the other boards if they don't want to pay. The fact is, unless they (Jelsoft) store the boards on their server(s), it's not pirate proof.

It is possible.

Originally posted by JustinK

An Idea for Jelsoft, how about in the user panel (where you access download & license info from) you put an option to add in the username for the support boards. It won't send the license info, just the username to a script/database which is less intrusive in my opinion.

How hard is it to create a username and password when someone buys a vBulletin? Ergo ... you eliminate the support from pirated versions, ergo ... you don't hunt down and accidently lynch innocent people. What happened to innocent until proven guilty??? Oh I "emailed you" and no one answered so you must be a pirate. It's not rocket science.

Some people don't put there sites down so they can't tell who is or isn't innocent. They can't wait for a reply forever. And it isn't hard for them at all. However they didn't take this sort of thing into mind early in the game and only now have to learn and adapt from that mistake. As for innocent until proven guilty... that seems to be a thing of the past these days.

Originally posted by purplemokey
Second, I don't even use vBulletin but I will call John Percival's bull about "caring" about his customers. Just admit he wants more money.If it was all about the money, why would the dev team ever bother to update the software or support the users? And why would the mods volunteer their time (we don't get paid)? It is about the money inasmuch as the development team has to be paid, the support team has to be paid, the server has to be paid for, etc. etc. etc. Beyond that it is about having something that you have poured a year and a half of your time into stolen day after day and being attacked like a rabid dog when you try to protect yourself. There is no fool-proof method, despite what purplemonkey seems to believe. Sure, we could encode the scripts. You know what? You'd then need Zend Optimizer (at a minimum) installed on the server, not to mention that hacks are now out of the question. Sure, we could make it a hosted service. You know what? Then people would bitch that they can't hack it, or customize it beyond basic options, and they'd be at the will of the server being up. If you are distributing PHP scripts, there is no fool-proof method that doesn't involve expense from the end-user. If you are doing a hosted-only service, good luck. Most professional websites won't even consider it.

Third, there are 3 or 4 free boards out there that are the same as vBulletin. There's nothing special about vBulletin.Then why isn't YourHostSucks or any other vB owner using them? I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them, but there's a reason people choose vB, just as there's a reason people pick phpBB or iB.

The only reason people pay for vBulletin is for the support and from the kind of "support" I'm seeing here I think some people might have reservations.They also pay for a dedicated development team, and a support team that answers their questions in less than 4 hours (faster in most cases).

Finally, directly to YourHostSucks, if you are so worried about the license information being stolen, why didn't you take the time to read on what happens when you do input it? The number and password are validated against the database, and then the password is discarded. That's right, even if someone by some miracle got into your vBulletin forum account, they would have a license number. Guess what it takes to get into the member's area? A license number and a password. Yes, that's what you're so worried about, is someone obtaining a useless license number. Even if it was put into the public domain (which it is not; view any user's profile to verify this for yourself) it is useless without the 12 letter and number randomly-generated password.

Originally posted by YourHostSuck
They should have mailed me first...Just as a point here, you were repeatedly asked to contact John or someone else at vBulletin to verify your information. Don't act like this came out of nowhere.

Originally posted by tubedogg
If it was all about the money, why would the dev team ever bother to update the software or support the users? And why would the mods volunteer their time (we don't get paid)? It is about the money inasmuch as the development team has to be paid, the support team has to be paid, the server has to be paid for, etc. etc. etc.

Who are you kidding?

First of all php is open source so the "development" was not as much as you are implying. The real credit should be given to the php community who are the real workhorses.

Second, how much does a dedicated server go for to host the vBulletin site? Anyone care to guess? Not much I think.

Third, software gives the most highest profit margin ever. The cost of software actually becomes zero the more software you sell. Plus, vBulletin doesn't even have to package it in little pretty boxes with a cd in and ship it to stores.

So according to my calculations you have little development cost and the development cost is nothing since you sell a lot. I'm sure vBulletin has made up the so called "development costs" and a lot more. vBulletin doesn't need to burn a cd, package and ship it so where are the costs?

And oh I forgot, vBulletin somehow convinced the mods to volunteer their support in exchange for power to ban people they don't like.

Originally posted by tubedogg

Then why isn't YourHostSucks or any other vB owner using them? I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them, but there's a reason people choose vB, just as there's a reason people pick phpBB or iB.

It's called marketing. Ever hear of something called Microsoft vs. Linux? PHP vs. ASP? Not always the best company wins. I'm sure you would agree to that.

Originally posted by tubedogg

Finally, directly to YourHostSucks, if you are so worried about the license information being stolen, why didn't you take the time to read on what happens when you do input it? The number and password are validated against the database, and then the password is discarded. That's right, even if someone by some miracle got into your vBulletin forum account, they would have a license number. Guess what it takes to get into the member's area? A license number and a password. Yes, that's what you're so worried about, is someone obtaining a useless license number. Even if it was put into the public domain (which it is not; view any user's profile to verify this for yourself) it is useless without the 12 letter and number randomly-generated password.

And if I'm a cop and you're a black guy walking the streets past midnight then what's the problem stopping you and asking to see your license? You know black people steal ... so they really shouldn't be complaining.

Seriously, I already covered this before. The "support" arguement is bull. If it's a legal or illegal version, the odds are the question will be asked so it doesn't matter.

I just want to hear John Percival say he wants to double his profits and that's that.

This one is free...why not use it?

http://phpbb.com/

Originally posted by purplemokey
First of all php is open source so the "development" was not as much as you are implying. The real credit should be given to the php community who are the real workhorses.Exactly who in the open-source PHP community had anything to do with the development of vBulletin? To take your analogy, that's like saying because Microsoft created ASP, that ASP developers merely write programs for it and don't do any actual work.

Second, how much does a dedicated server go for to host the vBulletin site? Anyone care to guess? Not much I think.Then would you like to pay for it?

So according to my calculations you have little development cost and the development cost is nothing since you sell a lot. I'm sure vBulletin has made up the so called "development costs" and a lot more. vBulletin doesn't need to burn a cd, package and ship it so where are the costs?And you have sales and expense figures to back your 'calculations' up? Let's see, this apparently non-existent development team still needs to be paid for ongoing development, as do server costs every month, as does the costs of a processing company to take care of payments every month, as does support people to support the software every month...You seem to think that John is doing this by himself. He has a dedicated team around him and they all deserve to be paid the going wages for their fine work, which they are. However this money doesn't materialize out of thin air.

And oh I forgot, vBulletin somehow convinced the mods to volunteer their support in exchange for power to ban people they don't like.Whatever.

And if I'm a cop and you're a black guy walking the streets past midnight then what's the problem stopping you and asking to see your license? You know black people steal ... so they really shouldn't be complaining.There's a slight difference between being a racist bigot and wanting to ensure your paying customers get support and pirates don't.

Seriously, I already covered this before. The "support" arguement is bull. If it's a legal or illegal version, the odds are the question will be asked so it doesn't matter.Yes. It does matter. It matters because every step we can take to make it that much harder for pirates is one step they take backwards. I know piracy can't be eradicated, and I don't think anyone is claiming it can. However this attitude of "it happens, you might as well just give up trying to fight it" is complete crap. If you'd really like me to come steal your computer, your car, and your TV, please, by all means send me your address. What? Not interested? Yeah. I thought so. So why is software suddenly different? Because it's not tangible?
When you call Microsoft to ask for support, what's the first thing they ask for? The product number. They're not stupid; they're not going to support a pirate as long as they can avoid it. Why are you so up in arms over

I just want to hear John Percival say he wants to double his profits and that's that.So let's say he's in it for the money. Yes, in the long run he is in it for the money...the money to pay for the server, for the dev team, for the support team, and maybe some money for himself. However if in your mind you think that has anything to do with stopping pirates you obviously have never had anything stolen from you.

John (If you're still reading this...),

My friend opened a support ticket exactly 3 days ago, without a reply giving URLs out to 1 possible pirated board, and 1 definte pirated board. 3 days, without a reply..

purplemokey, Im not going to answer you - I dont have time to argue with you - I have a business to run.

good day

[Edited to remove profanatory]

Originally posted by tubedogg
Some of the most childish behaviour I've seen since . . . . hum . . . I dunno . . . . the vBulletin forum :rolleyes:

You, obviously, have a vested interest. And, as such, are quite biased in your opinion; and childish in your attitude. :cartman:

YourHostSucks was trying to make a stand.

Jelsoft decided to kick the chair out from under him.

I'm glad I happened to read this thread. There is no way I would consider using vBulletin now. If anyone were to ask me my opinion about it, I'll just send them to this thread and let them decide for themselves.
Let them see the imature games played by the Jelsoft crowd :cartman:
Even with a name like yourhostsucks; they have been better served in this thread.
Jelsoft looks like the school yard bully that just got sent to the principal's office; and is now trying to defend his actions :rolleyes:
And, after going over to the site in qquestion, I think vBulletin should be commending yourhostsucks for displaying such an awesome board.
That board rocks!! :agree:
They should change to another board though.
If there was a way to get their money back, they should change.

Wow! Listen to me! Something finally got my attention :D
I'll bet others are paying attention too.
Too many free boards around to have to put up with this kind of stuff. ;)

Originally posted by Nicholas Brown
purplemokey, Im not going to answer you - your a prick and I dont have time to argue with pricks - I have a business to run.

good day :eek: Good one:eek: Shows your intellegence :cartman:
I've seen your posts. You are rude and :homer:

Originally posted by mkaufman
John (If you're still reading this...),

My friend opened a support ticket exactly 3 days ago, without a reply giving URLs out to 1 possible pirated board, and 1 definte pirated board. 3 days, without a reply..

Hey mkaufman,

I think they get that many reported boards that they dont have time to write back saying thanks :(

Originally posted by tubedogg
Exactly who in the open-source PHP community had anything to do with the development of vBulletin? To take your analogy, that's like saying because Microsoft created ASP, that ASP developers merely write programs for it and don't do any actual work.

Okay obviously you don't know anything about PHP or open source so I would suggest you stick to moderating message boards. Talk to your "development buddies" about the php mailing list and the half a dozen sites with mega tons of code. Who is stealing from who???

Originally posted by tubedogg
And you have sales and expense figures to back your 'calculations' up? Let's see, this apparently non-existent development team still needs to be paid for ongoing development, as do server costs every month, as does the costs of a processing company to take care of payments every month, as does support people to support the software every month...You seem to think that John is doing this by himself. He has a dedicated team around him and they all deserve to be paid the going wages for their fine work, which they are. However this money doesn't materialize out of thin air.

Until John Percival stops letting his little minion talk about nothing he knows about and actually opens up the books for vBulletin (which I highly doubt) then tubedogg is digging himself a bigger and bigger hole. How many developers do you have? How many support workers you have? How much you pay them? How much bandwidth are you paying? How much is your server?

This bull about "software has such very low profit margins and we can't buy a SUV for my wife!" on top of the bull you are arguing about "we only answer questions from legal versions but (oops) illegal versions ask the same questions". I mean who can't see through this???

This tubedogg sounds like a lot of "support" people I encounter. Calm down dude you're going to pop a vein.

Originally posted by tubedogg
There's a slight difference between being a racist bigot and wanting to ensure your paying customers get support and pirates don't.

Have you even been reading the posts? This is exactly how the people on here felt like. That they were criminals with no warning, banned from vBulletin's forum and notified their host about them being criminals and should be shut down. This is how vBulletin got into this mess in the first place.

Originally posted by Nicholas Brown
purplemokey, Im not going to answer you - your a prick and I dont have time to argue with pricks - I have a business to run.

good day

That's because Nicholas knows he misquoted me by dropping half of my sentence so I guess he's going to take his ball and go home. It was funny because he didn't think anyone would "catch on".

Originally posted by KatKalt
:eek: Good one:eek: Shows your intellegence :cartman:
I've seen your posts. You are rude and :homer:

I am not a homer simpson thanks very much. I happen to believe Im quite intelligent and so do a lot of other people.

Rude? :rolleyes: - no - Im just posting my feelings towards the situation - Ive never been called rude before - only by yourself. I admit, maybe I shouldnt have called him what I did - ive been awake 30 minutes and have woke up to a load of rubish that I dont need. - I'll edit my post accordingly.

Please note that I am not replying to this thread any longer - subject closed on my part

--Nick

Originally posted by Nicholas Brown


I am not a homer simpson thanks very much. I happen to believe Im quite intelligent and so do a lot of other people.

Rude? :rolleyes: - no - Im just posting my feelings towards the situation - Ive never been called rude before - only by yourself. I admit, maybe I shouldnt have called him what I did - ive been awake 30 minutes and have woke up to a load of rubish that I dont need. - I'll edit my post accordingly.

Please note that I am not replying to this thread any longer - subject closed on my part

--Nick

Nothing like a good insult before you start the day.

OK, personal insults galore = thread closed. Time for a bit of a cooling off, guys, and think about what you're actually trying to say before posting again. This thread will most probably be cleaned out before being re-opened again.

I have decided that this thread should remain closed for at least another 24 hours. I am not convinced at all that the childish bickering, insulting and deliberate (or accidental) mis-interpretations will not begin again once I re-open the thread. I have been forced to consider moderating this thread only (i.e. personally approve/delete all posts) to keep all the rubbish out.

I will be consulting with the other moderators as to whether the thread should be re-opened or not....