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Acroplex
01-11-2004, 03:14 AM
JANUARY 9 - 15, 2004
Music Industry Puts Troops in the Streets
Quasi-legal squads raid street vendors
by Ben Sullivan

Though no guns were brandished, the bust from a distance looked like classic LAPD, DEA or FBI work, right down to the black "raid" vests the unit members wore. The fact that their yellow stenciled lettering read "RIAA" instead of something from an official law-enforcement agency was lost on 55-year-old parking-lot attendant Ceasar Borrayo.

The Recording Industry Association of America is taking it to the streets.

Even as it suffers setbacks in the courtroom, the RIAA has over the last 18 months built up a national staff of ex-cops to crack down on people making and selling illegal CDs in the hood.

The result has been a growing number of scenes like the one played out in Silver Lake just before Christmas, during an industry blitz to combat music piracy.

Borrayo attends to a parking lot next to the landmark El 7 Mares fish-taco stand on Sunset Boulevard. To supplement his buck-a-car income, he began, in 2003, selling records and videos from a makeshift stand in front of the lot.

In a good week, Borrayo said, he might unload five or 10 albums and a couple DVDs at $5 apiece. Paying a distributor about half that up-front, he thought he’d lucked into a nice side business.

The RIAA saw it differently. Figuring the discs were bootlegs, a four-man RIAA squad descended on his stand a few days before Christmas and persuaded the 4-foot-11 Borrayo to hand over voluntarily a total of 78 discs. It wasn’t a tough sell.

"They said they were police from the recording industry or something, and next time they’d take me away in handcuffs," he said through an interpreter. Borrayo says he has no way of knowing if the records, with titles like Como Te Extraño Vol. IV — Musica de los 70’s y 80’s, are illegal, but he thought better of arguing the point.

The RIAA acknowledges it all — except the notion that its staff presents itself as police. Yes, they may all be ex-P.D. Yes, they wear cop-style clothes and carry official-looking IDs. But if they leave people like Borrayo with the impression that they’re actual law enforcement, that’s a mistake.

"We want to be very clear who we are and what we’re doing," says John Langley, Western regional coordinator for the RIAA Anti-Piracy Unit. "First and foremost, we’re professionals."

Langley, based in Los Alamitos, California, oversees five staff investigators and around 20 contractors who sniff out bootleg discs west of the Rockies. The former Royal Canadian Mountie said his unit’s on-the-streets approach has been a big success, netting more than 100,000 pieces of unauthorized merchandise during the recent Christmas retail blitz.

With all the trappings of a police team, including pink incident reports that, among other things, record a vendor’s height, weight, hair and eye color, the RIAA squad can give those busted the distinct impression they’re tangling with minions of Johnny Law instead of David Geffen. And that raises some potential legal questions.

Contacted for this article, the Southern California branch of the American Civil Liberties Union said it needed more information on the practices to know if specific civil liberties were at risk.

But if an anti-piracy team crossed the line between looking like cops and implying or telling vendors that they are cops, the Los Angeles Police Department would take a pretty dim view, said LAPD spokesman Jason Lee.

"I will not say it’s okay to be [selling] illegal stuff," Lee said. "That’s a violation of penal codes.

"But it doesn’t really matter what your status is. If that person feels he was wrongly interrogated or under the false pretense that these people were cops, they should contact their local police station as a victim. We’ll sort it all out."

For its part, the RIAA maintains that the up-close-and-personal techniques are nothing new. RIAA spokesman Jonathan Lamy says its investigators do not represent themselves as police, and that the incident reports vendors are asked to sign, in which they agree to hand over their discs, explicitly state that the forfeiture is voluntary.

Lamy and the RIAA are unapologetic about taking the fight against music piracy to the streets. Though the association has suffered a few high-profile legal setbacks in recent months — most notably when a three-judge panel ruled that Internet service providers do not have to squeal on their file-swapping customers — community action is extremely effective.

Langley says the anti-piracy teams have about an 80 percent success rate in persuading vendors to hand over their merchandise voluntarily for destruction.

"We notify them that continued sale would be a violation of civil and criminal codes. If they’d like to voluntarily turn the product over to us, we’ll destroy it, and we agree we won’t sue," he explained.

The pink incident sheets and photos that Langley’s teams take of vendors are meant to establish a paper trail, particularly for repeat offenders.

"A large percentage [of the vendors] are of a Hispanic nature," Langley said. "Today he’s Jose Rodriguez, tomorrow he’s Raul something or other, and tomorrow after that he’s something else. These people change their identity all the time. A picture’s worth a thousand words."

Though Langley says he doesn’t know what tack his new boss will take, the recent hiring of Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Director Bradley Buckles to head the anti-piracy unit has some RIAA watchers holding their breath.

On its face, the move looks like a shift toward even more in-your-face enforcement. But don’t expect all RIAA critics to rally to the side of Borrayo and other sellers.

"The process of confiscating bootleg CDs from street vendors is exactly what the RIAA should be doing," said Jason Schultz, a staff attorney for the San Francisco–based Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF).

The EFF has frequently crossed swords with the record industry over its strategy of suing ISPs and individual listeners accused of downloading tunes from the Internet. A champion of copyright "fair use," the EFF says Buckles could bring a more balanced approach to the RIAA’s anti-piracy efforts. The more time the association spends rousting vendors, the thinking goes, the less it will spend subpoenaing KaZaa and BearShare aficionados.

Meanwhile, Borrayo will have to keep his eyes open for another source of income. Though he says he still sees nothing wrong with what he did, the guy who once supplied him records hasn’t been around in a couple months.

"They tried to scare me," Borrayo said. "They told me, ‘You’re a pirate!’ I said, ‘C’mon, guys, pirates are all at sea. I just work in a parking lot.’ "

Tropical Tundra
01-11-2004, 03:27 AM
Man they're out of control. They would freak out if they were in Bangkok. I was there last March and they're selling pirated CD's and DVD's of any kind!

Kimmikat
01-11-2004, 04:14 AM
They need to head to Bangkok. Also at some flea markets there is some pirates selling discs for $5 or less.

Davros
01-11-2004, 04:38 AM
I doubt they'd be take too seriously in Bangkok since they are "The Recording Industry Association of America" They've got borderline rights of athourity here in the US.. They will laugh them out of the country!

TR Seeks
01-11-2004, 04:45 AM
well I am luckily not in america. Not that I copy CDs or anything

Mephisteus
01-11-2004, 07:49 AM
Meh, a board I'm on got a letter from RIAA (dutch board) saying they should close down FTP section and if anything (ANYTHING) illegal will be discussed they would have a lawsuit on their hands (the owners).

Frankly I am quite disturbed with the power America has in the Netherlands....

Trifolic
01-11-2004, 08:19 AM
Thailand doesn't recognize national/international copyright laws of anykind.. Hell even the beer is fake..

Tazzman
01-11-2004, 08:20 AM
Which would be absolutely none, unless that particular board is hosted on a US server, in which case they would be in their right to shut it down and persue the owner/operator. If the board was also hosted in the Netherlands, all they could do is contact their Dutch counterparts and/or Dutch law enforcement.

Kerry Jones
01-11-2004, 11:30 AM
They've gone too far. If I remember correctly when I wanted to become a police officer you have to have a search warrant. I believe only government offices such as the police, fbi, etc can only obtain it, so the question is why isn't the RIAA in trouble for possibly a illegal search and seizure?

Trifolic
01-11-2004, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Kerry Jones
They've gone too far. If I remember correctly when I wanted to become a police officer you have to have a search warrant. I believe only government offices such as the police, fbi, etc can only obtain it, so the question is why isn't the RIAA in trouble for possibly a illegal search and seizure?

Because they are on the streets, In the public. They are not doing it behind closed doors or on Private property..

Do the police need a search warrent to nail a drug dealer on the corner?

Basically what the RIAA is doing is a Legal form of Extortion.

ichris
01-11-2004, 12:04 PM
This is scary, but at least I don't sell stuff on the street :)

Eric Cartman
01-11-2004, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Trifolic
Because they are on the streets, In the public. They are not doing it behind closed doors or on Private property..

Do the police need a search warrent to nail a drug dealer on the corner?

Basically what the RIAA is doing is a Legal form of Extortion.

the police aint a private organisation

Tazzman
01-11-2004, 12:39 PM
If I were the RIAA, I'd be doing everything I could to better my relationship with the various law enforcement agencies. I don't think taking matters into their own hands and playing 'cops' is going to do much to help that relationship.

All they seem to be achieving is milking the small fries for everything they have and then saying it's for everybodies benefit, while all they are doing is lacing their own pockets. If the US is so against dictators, how come they allow such an entity to exhist in their own country, as IMHO, the RIAA is starting to act like a dictatorship. What's next? An RIAA presidential candidate who'll shut down the internet as soon as he buys his way into office?

Trifolic
01-11-2004, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Eric Cartman
the police aint a private organisation

Ok let me clarify somethings for you then.

They don't need a search warrent or anything, because all they are doing is going up to street vendors (on public property) and telling them, Destroy this ILLEGAL material or we will take legal actions aginst you.

They are pretty much copyright bounty hunters.. And if you do some research on Bounty Hunters, they have a much much farther reach than The police, FBI, Sherriffs, or Marshals..

IHSL
01-11-2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Trifolic
They don't need a search warrent or anything, because all they are doing is going up to street vendors (on public property) and telling them, Destroy this ILLEGAL material or we will take legal actions aginst you.

They are pretty much copyright bounty hunters.. And if you do some research on Bounty Hunters, they have a much much farther reach than The police, FBI, Sherriffs, or Marshals..

Precisely.

Vox Hosting
01-11-2004, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Mephisteus
Meh, a board I'm on got a letter from RIAA (dutch board) saying they should close down FTP section and if anything (ANYTHING) illegal will be discussed they would have a lawsuit on their hands (the owners).

Frankly I am quite disturbed with the power America has in the Netherlands....

Is the website hosted in the USA or in the Netherlands? PM me and I can give you some URLs to some free speech hosts, some that are located in the USA and some that aren't if you want.

AL-Benjamin
01-11-2004, 12:53 PM
i'm amazed their allowed to do it

Trifolic
01-11-2004, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by thebyp2
i'm amazed their allowed to do it

Amazed that who is allowed to do what? And why?

Davros
01-11-2004, 01:15 PM
Considering your average musician only makes about $0.50 for each album sold and that's if they are REAL good.. Most of the money an artist makes is from public appearances, concert tours and merchandise. Its obvious who the greedy one is here.. They sure as hell don't represent the Artists rignts to make a living off of their work.

Recording Companies are a bunch of greedy scoundrels.. They always have been and always will be. CD's could cost $5.99 instead of $15.99 if it weren't for their greed.

Vox Hosting
01-11-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Davros
Considering your average musician only makes about $0.50 for each album sold and that's if they are REAL good.. Most of the money an artist makes is from public appearances, concert tours and merchandise. Its obvious who the greedy one is here.. They sure as hell don't represent the Artists rignts to make a living off of their work.

Recording Companies are a bunch of greedy scoundrels.. They always have been and always will be. CD's could cost $5.99 instead of $15.99 if it weren't for their greed.

I have no problem paying $15.99 for a CD but most of the time mainstream CDs are more expensive then that..about $20 a pop after tax and all. I think that now artists are in a position to where they can have a big audience without going through the RIAA or the major labels..What I've often thought would be cool is if the artist had like a paypal donate link up on his webpage and offered his music for free but said "only if we meet this goal will we record more music". That would give people incentive to pay the artist and the artist would actually be getting the money and not the greedy RIAA.

Trifolic
01-11-2004, 01:35 PM
Can someone PLEASE show me an Article where an artist has made some kind of statement that they aren't getting any money from their work they are doing? Or some kind of article where they are complaining about their income?

Vox Hosting
01-11-2004, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Trifolic
Can someone PLEASE show me an Article where an artist has made some kind of statement that they aren't getting any money from their work they are doing? Or some kind of article where they are complaining about their income?

Of course they are getting money from what they do. But the RIAA thugs get the most and that is the front that they are using "if you don't pay for your music, these artists won't get paid..blah blah"

webmultitude
01-11-2004, 02:25 PM
You gotta be kidding me :rolleyes:

silock
01-11-2004, 02:35 PM
Next thing you know, their picking up kids and asking them to open their CD players, or asking them where they got the tunes for their shiny new Ipod. The RIAA is really bad at this type of stuff. Trying to sue ISPs, sueing that 12 year old girl, putting ex-cops on the streets, they need to relook their strategy before someone crazy bombs their HQ!

westcan
01-11-2004, 02:54 PM
I wish they had batons and OC, beating people in the streets. Now that would be entertaining.

Trifolic
01-11-2004, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Vox Hosting
Of course they are getting money from what they do. But the RIAA thugs get the most and that is the front that they are using "if you don't pay for your music, these artists won't get paid..blah blah"

Hmm Makes me wonder how many people you would help become millionaires for minimum wage.

I don't care if they are money hungry,
I just don't buy their products If i want to hear music, I reach over to this little device that I picked up for $19.99 and tune in to a radio station. If I want to listen to a certain song at a certain time, I just go to launch.yahoo.com fire up the video and let it run in the background.


They put the artist where they are now, Without them the artist would still be playing local gigs.

webworkz
01-11-2004, 04:55 PM
Why are these people not being arrested for impersonating law enforcement officers? Threatening to put people in handcuffs, flashing ID, uniforms, etc.

Granted, they may not be carrying a gun, but 99% of the people they do this to are going to think that these people are legitimate law enforcement officers.

Trifolic
01-11-2004, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by webworkz
Why are these people not being arrested for impersonating law enforcement officers? Threatening to put people in handcuffs, flashing ID, uniforms, etc.

They are not impersonating law enforcement officers, They have uniforms badges etc... But none of those are actually anything legit. Its just something NEW and people don't know that they aren't.

Just like a foreigner, Bring 1 person from every country in the world over to the US, And ask them what they think of the local security guard at the mall. most will assume its a cop, or some sort of "Government" law official.

As long as they never STATE that they are the law or part of any government organization, they can continue doing what they are doing.


Originally posted by webworkz
Granted, they may not be carrying a gun, but 99% of the people they do this to are going to think that these people are legitimate law enforcement officers. [/B]

Yes right now they will because its NEW, Give it a few months of being exploited on the news, and more and more people see and learn, and they will then be seen just like a local security guard is seen.

webworkz
01-11-2004, 06:38 PM
^ Threatening to handcuff/arrest someone is NOT impersonating a law enforcement officer?

So, I can go around with a company uniform and threaten to handcuff/arrest people if they don't surrender their belongings, and NOT get in trouble for it?

There are PROPER channels to follow, and threatening to handcuff/arrest people for not giving into your demands is NOT one of those channels, regardless of whether or not they are selling pirated/stolen merchandise. Find the people's information, and file a lawsuit ... you don't strongarm people into doing what you want.

Acroplex
01-11-2004, 06:45 PM
I think I saw SoftwareRevue in a mod suit once. Looked a bit like a RIAA cop :D

Trifolic
01-11-2004, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by webworkz
^ Threatening to handcuff/arrest someone is NOT impersonating a law enforcement officer?

Yea why not? The security guards around here have handcuffs. You think they have them for the looks? No If someone is doing something illegal (shoplifiting etc..) They are allowed to handcuff them until the police come.

Originally posted by webworkz
So, I can go around with a company uniform and threaten to handcuff/arrest people if they don't surrender their belongings, and NOT get in trouble for it?

[/B]
First they are not taking anything, They are having them destroy it.

Second its not their belongings, its ILLEGAL material, Copyright Infringement is illegal, The problem with it is that its not enforced.

Originally posted by webworkz
There are PROPER channels to follow, and threatening to handcuff/arrest people for not giving into your demands is NOT one of those channels, regardless of whether or not they are selling pirated/stolen merchandise. Find the people's information, and file a lawsuit ... you don't strongarm people into doing what you want. [/B]

Think about what you are saying. Most of the people that are selling this stuff on the streets are obviously not rich people. What are they going to do supeona Bum #28473 From Alley 2343 to court?

Threatening people is 1 thing, Advising people of what can happen is another, If I see someone selling something they STOLE from me, and say give it back or I will have you arrested. Do you consider that a threat?

webworkz
01-11-2004, 08:23 PM
^ Telling someone you'll have them arrested, and THREATENING to handcuff and arrest someone yourself is two very different things.

You're threatening to report them to the proper LEA and have them arrested for theft. You're not threatening to handcuff and arrest them on your own.

The RIAA are no the police and have no right to threaten arrest, and that is exactly what they are convincing people they can do.



EDIT: I con spell guud.

Trifolic
01-11-2004, 08:30 PM
"They said they were police from the recording industry or something, and next time they’d take me away in handcuffs," he said through an interpreter.

1.) Something was probably lost in the translation

2.) Its good to know that you believe the average street vendor selling illegal things..

Acroplex
01-11-2004, 08:43 PM
Meanwhile this article states that the RIAA is using fake numbers to claim slide in P2P file sharing:

+++

Biz Skeptical About Reported Slide in File-Sharing
Sun Jan 11,12:18 PM ET Add Entertainment - Reuters to My Yahoo!


By Bill Holland

WASHINGTON (Billboard) - Are fewer Americans using music file-sharing programs? Maybe. Depends on who you talk to.



Most -- but not all -- online music industry analysts say they agree to some extent with the findings of a study released by the Pew Internet & American Life Project over the Jan. 2 weekend reporting that illegal music file sharing is down among those 18 and older.


Analysts and execs from peer-to-peer monitoring companies say, however, their data do not show the precipitous 50% dip that the Pew survey found. They also point out that the new survey excludes teens, the most active P2P users.


Pew interviewed 1,358 Internet users from Nov. 18 to Dec. 14 and found that the percentage of music-file downloaders had fallen to 14% from the 29% the project had reported last spring -- a drop from 35 million users to 18 million users.


The groups that recorded the steepest plunges were women (a 58% decrease), those with some college education (a 61% decrease) and parents with children living at home (a 58% decrease).


The study includes very recent data from ComScore Media Metrix, based on a continuously measured consumer panel, which show significant declines from November 2002 to November 2003: 15% for Kazaa, 25% for WinMX, 9% for BearShare and 59% for Grokster.


That contrasts with findings from Webspins, which compiles data on computer requests for P2P music files for such companies as Nielsen SoundScan. A Webspins analyst says that his data does not show any decline in P2P usage.


"Folks might tell Pew something, but the facts are, we've not seen a dip," Webspins consultant John Fagot says. "In fact, over the Christmas break, we found there was actually a 5% increase in requests for file sharing music files."


Most monitoring company execs say that the industry's educational and enforcement efforts, coupled with the availability of viable pay services, will eventually overcome infringing P2P outfits.


Fagot cites his son, who tells him the legit services deliver ease and guaranteed top-quality audio.


Russ Crupnick, VP at NPD Music Watch Digital Service, says his data shows that P2P usage has "dropped off significantly in the long term." In September 2002, he says, 22% of those surveyed said they had used P2P for music downloading in the past month. In September 2003, the number dropped to 11%.


Crupnick says that by November 2003, either because of the pending holiday season or less media coverage of suits from the Recording Industry Assn. of America, the download figures started creeping up again, to 12% of those surveyed. He thinks some people decided, "'I think I'll take the seat belt off."' Crupnick also agrees that some users might be telling groups one thing and doing another.


But Eric Garland, CEO of Big Champagne -- another online media measurement firm -- says that the industry enforcement program has changed attitudes, if not behavior. "Six months ago, everybody would tell interviewers they use P2P because it was hip. No longer."


As for the veracity of the Pew responses, Fagot quotes the late writer H.L. Mencken: "It is hard to believe that a man is telling the truth when you know you would lie if you were in his place."


Pew director Lee Rainie admits that some interviewees might not have 'fessed up, but he stands behind the numbers.


"You should keep in mind we were counting people, not the amount of files being transferred," he says.


All of the experts caution that big drop or no, unless the industry is vigilant, infringers will continue to look for a free ride.





John Barnett at Parks Associates warns that online piracy will continue to plague the business: "It'll be a constant battle for the industry; it's like water in a dam seeking a crack."

RIAA (news - web sites) chairman/CEO Mitch Bainwol agrees. "We must continue on this course. It is essential to fostering an environment where legal online music services can flourish." He says the Pew revelations show that the RIAA is "on the right track."

Phil Leigh, senior analyst at Inside Digital Media, says the figures are a positive development but adds that "the drop is not enough to save the physical CD. There's no corresponding 50% increase in CD sales."

Leigh says that CD burning will continue to rob sales. Those who have CD burners on their computers, he says, are "are getting habituated to their use."

3rdcoast
01-11-2004, 09:10 PM
i'm a lil confused, copying of files and music, never seemed to be a problem until the last couple years. As long as business was legit, no one use to care what you copied and passed around.

Now i have to deal with yet another headache. I dont buy cd's for one they are too expensive. It's cheaper to download them. :stickout:

People will argue that illgel is illegal and you shouldnt do it. It's all personal preference. I for one am not going without a fight. What is the purpose of high speed internet anyway?

The RIAA is just a bunch of old school jocks that got fat and bald and looking to pick on people, and from the stories i've read they havent gone after anyone that can really defend themselves.

Go ahead and bash me for it.


:cool:

Acroplex
01-11-2004, 09:14 PM
Actually, the RIAA is the people that control the music industry and pay the artists a small (SMALL) percentage of the earnings. They are the Scrooge McDucks of the recording industry.

3rdcoast
01-11-2004, 09:18 PM
so who is going to police the RIAA?

Acroplex
01-11-2004, 09:19 PM
Maybe douche the RIAA with meat and unleash PETA behind them :D

Tazzman
01-11-2004, 10:31 PM
You could always hand out flyers to the children of people that work for the RIAA:

Is your daddy a heartless demon who sucks the life out of 12 year old girls? Ask him ...

Acroplex
01-11-2004, 10:56 PM
Muahahaha!