cpanel hosts to be avoided ? [Archive]

Tim Greer

10-06-2001, 06:27 AM

Originally posted by AffordableHost
Not if it compromises the security or reliability of a server.

--Tina

Of course, let's not leave out other logical reasons, like: It doesn't make the customer any happier or confident, if the control panel interface you provide (or force on) them, just creates problems and all those "nifty" features they were drawn to to join, don't work right or at all. But, I can only claim that as my view, I have many more, but there's no reason for me to complain this morning. However, I agree with what you said, Tina, previously. A control panel is great, but it should only provide an interface -- not take control, interfere, get in the way or cause problems.

An unstable, buggy, horrible or insecure interface, doesn't help anyone and just causes frustration and client's to leave... and you can only explain being at the mercy of a developer for the bug fixes and problems -- unless they offer the source code to allow you to fix it and just fix the whole code, basically. That said, I realize client's want the best control panel, with the most features. However, most of those features are only meant to be for specific reasons; To make a task easier and quicker and possible more idiot-proof/fail-safe from typo's or syntax problems or to make up for lack of knowledge. Now, that said, any host that lacks the knowledge to do things manually, has no business hosting web site's and claiming they are a hosting business in the first place.

Command line driven shell scripts to do the tasks for you, work just as well, and only provide a different interface -- they work just as fast, effectively and securely -- if not much more so. A graphical/web based interface is nice to have and I have no complaints about that implementation. However, with some of these control panels out there, it's not the interface, but the shoddy coding/development that causes problems. Problems that mean you'd have been far better off just doing all these things manually, or just writing some scripts to assist your administration tasks to save time and hassles -- nothing wrong with that.

These things, offering cron jobs, for example, via an HTML based interface... I really don't see the reason. However, there's no reason not to. The same for SQL, etc. as well. Of course, there are many things client's want in an interface and I don't blame them. However, as I said in another post earlier tonight, the golden days of web hosting have been long, long gone. People used to get into web hosting, because they understood what it was, how it worked and the like. Now, the highest percentage doesn't know how to even FTP and rely on things like Frontpage to publish. They don't understand permissions, telnet/SSH (or shell access), command line tools and whatnot, or anything to speak of. Therefore, to run a web hosting business now, you must offer at least the most used features a client wants (and needs to have offered through said interface).

If you ask me, I find it highly annoying, but only when it's due to client's having to rely on it -- because they don't understand or know anything about any of it. Still, that's not even it, it's the resellers that bother me, that don't have any idea what FTP is, yet they think they can make tons of money offering web hosting, being a reseller and can't even answer one of their own client's questions or help them with any problems -- unless it's easy to figure out and solve by using the control panel (yeah right). Of course, we don't have client's like that on us, but... :-)

Unfortunately, the more features you offer, even if it's something they'll only set one time and never think about or touch again, you have to offer it or they'll scream about how you aren't providing a good service, or as good as some other host that does. Granted, I can't think of any situation where that's happened, other than when client's want to be able to do absolutely every single thing possible through some stupid control panel. So, believe me, as much of a draw a feature filled control panel is, Tina has the right idea. Stability and security far outweigh a ton of features that are only going to break, give you problems, upset the clients and pose security concerns. That's not to say you can't have (or build) a feature filled control panel with everything any client could every want, because you can.

However, rather than trying to deal with some of these infamous, horrible control panels (dare they call them a control panel!), it's possible a better option to not go with a host using one, when those problems affect your site, even if you choose not to use it -- no to mention it interfering with server performance and security configurations and settings (and I'm not making that up!) So, a good solution, is to do just that, find a host that at least is willing to or has an alternative, even if it's no control panel. We had to spend a lot of time and a lot of planning to have a control panel developed and we are impatiently waiting to get the hell away from Cpanel as soon as possible (hopefully in the next two weeks).

You can think it's not all that bad to use or have, but I can't think of one thing that's not gone wrong or majority wrong with it. We started moving away from it by having an alternative developed by professionals (I'd have contributed to the development sooner, but i was hired on after it was contracted out) with an actual proper design when we had too many ongoing and continual problems. I'd suggest staying away from Cpanel, and I have a million valid reasons why. I guess my point is, I agree; Find an alternative product, or perhaps just an alternative, like developing some of the most basic, most needed and desired features to work properly and stable and securely and go from there, if need be. I hate that we have to offer a control panel and some client's think it's the entire world or so useful, when these are only basic, common things they want accomplished when it comes down to it, but that's just the way it is and it's not going to change.

As Jeff Bezos (CEO, founder Amazon.com) says, "Don't always listen so much as to what the client wants. They are the client, they don't know what they want". That's to say, you're in this business, they are your client -- it's your job to know and know what they really need -- not theirs. You'll end up having a ton of useless, confusing, trivial features that no one knows how to use, what it's for or has the desire to anyway, just to cater to the few (or one person). You should know to what extent they need and want, it's your job. A ton of cheap features that weren't implemented properly anyway that will just cause problems, is _not_ a reasonable or logical solution... if there aren't alternatives, create one.

To those that don't understand it or don't know how, then you're surely not qualified enough to be running a web hosting business anyway, and what in the world are the client's paying you for? Well, that's my take, albeit a but brutal and cynical at points, but definitely realistic. All in all, I'm glad to see potential hosted clients are aware of these issues and are making educated and wise choices in light of that knowledge. Cheers! :-)

safu

10-06-2001, 08:47 AM

Hi Tim,
Its a long post. I need to read it again but I do not find anything
"brutal and cynical " in what you say though I am confused ( sorry! sorry!) - you recommend cpanel or not recommend cpanel? By cpanel I mean and Tina meant too the current available cpanels , not an ideal one.

I find the interface of affordablehost quite friendly.Its true our genaration know very little of command lines,shell etc but for myself I can say I know html ( he! he!), php, little perl, ftp but I do not know how to tackle Mysql thru telent or shell. I learn it but I forget it again.I hate Frontpage - very dumb and silly !! I think there are still a lot of customers like me who are halfway knowledgable and would prefer stuff like what affordablehost or similar others provide.Cobalt raq interface was also ok - it did not offer much but was ok and never caused any problem.

I need to read your post again - just had an urge to hit the reply button :D

Tim Greer

10-06-2001, 10:09 AM

There's a control panel product (well, I wouldn't call it a product, actually) that's literally called "Cpanel". This program, I highly do NOT recommend, just to be clear. This is also my opinion. Of course, people should always investigate any program that has such an influence on how a server runs and performs and all the aspects involved. However, my experience with that software, is a nightmare, in every possible way. It's pretty much gone wrong in every possible way.

Finally, in regards to not knowing everything, that's fine. You have to learn somehow and some way. I'm not saying people don't have a right to run a web host without knowledge fully to do it all, but to be clear, and blunt, I simply meant that in regard to the people that run web hosts with paying clients -- where clients have poor service or unstable, bad hosting experiences, because the people running the server are stuck relying on a control panel that can't possibly do all the administration, configuration and security tasks that are involved in having to do to properly run a quality server. You see, you also know about some languages and interfaces, as well as other programs like how to FTP and you know what shell access is and the command line, so you're not one of those people I spoke about. :-)

I also don't think people that use frontpage are unqualified or shouldn't be running a web host -- assuming they use it to create pages and whatnot. I was speaking of the people that used it before they don't know how to use FTP or even know what it is -- those people have no business running a web host. Further, frontpage is not and has never been a good idea to run anyway. For example, frontpage is a popular Apache web server module, because so many clients need it, because they don't know how to use FTP (and that's fine for a client, don't get me wrong -- they aren't running a web hosting business). In regard to that, the Apache web site and all the Apache web server books make no mention or support of frontpage extensions.

The reason for this, is because frontpage is a bad implementation, a bad idea and has never been and never will be a good idea, never will be stable and it's highly insecure -- hence why you don't see any mention from the Apache developers themselves about it on their site. Yet, in retrospect, a lot of people that run web hosts, have no idea about this sort of thing and they don't just offer it for their client's sakes, but for their own, and that's kind of scary. :-)

Anyway, it's great that you know some things and I'm sure you'll learn more. And, once again, to be clear, that's fine and I support learning and doing things by whatever means -- just as long as people don't just slap some lame control panel program and think that they can use it alone to run a web hosting business and not need to know anything else or be able to work with a lot of tools and things that require manual tweaking and configurations or the like. This is the point I don't think I was clear about previously. I hope that makes more sense (and that I made less typo's this time. :-)

safu

10-06-2001, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Tim_Greer
so you're not one of those people I spoke about. :-)

...I hope that makes more sense (and that I made less typo's this time. :-)

Hi Tim, :)
Thankxxx. Sure - I clearly understood what you say.
I bet if you write books you can earn $$$$ from amazon or whatever. Same is true if you start online tutorials - ad pullers they will be ;)

Webdude

10-06-2001, 01:06 PM

Well, Cpanel has serious problems. Everything was fine at first, and things slowly degrade. First one problems, then another. We are switching control panels. We have been dealing with Zeus, but are also looking some at H-Sphere now since Zeus wont have their stuff for us done for a while.

Anyway, we have lost $thousands$ per month over the last few months due to cpanel problems and their lack of support. Any problems always get blamed on anything but cpanel. Our server continually crashes, but Nick says it's not a cpanel conflict. Interestingly, I can completely shut down cpanel, and have absolutely no probs during that entire time..

We used cpanel and the problems it has caused has degraded our own image. Now we are forced to go to a different panel, and try to build our image back up. Cpanel can be a good product if there was decent support behind it..but I'm sorry, I will never recommend cpanel again. I'm sorry for ever using it. We have had two major issues unresolved for two months, and are still awaiting answers from cpanel.net on how to fix them. That is some hellacious support. Nick, dont ask me what they are now, too late. Ask Carlos what they are since he is one of the ones who asked you on my behalf..

Personally I wouldnt offer a control panel except that is almost required nowdays by hosting clients. Everyone is looking for hosts that offer control panels nowdays...

bdraco

10-07-2001, 04:32 AM

Originally posted by Webdude
Well, Cpanel has serious problems. Everything was fine at first, and things slowly degrade. First one problems, then another. We are switching control panels. We have been dealing with Zeus, but are also looking some at H-Sphere now since Zeus wont have their stuff for us done for a while.

Anyway, we have lost $thousands$ per month over the last few months due to cpanel problems and their lack of support.
You are susposed to get support from your cpanel distributor, they get a large portion of your cpanel fee (in some cases a larger percent of what you pay goes to the distributor) each month for handling this (this is the only reason DarkORB has distributors). If they are unable to support you; You should be switching to a diffrent distributor (you have options for a reason).

Any problems always get blamed on anything but cpanel. Our server continually crashes, but Nick says it's not a cpanel conflict. Interestingly, I can completely shut down cpanel, and have absolutely no probs during that entire time..

We used cpanel and the problems it has caused has degraded our own image. Now we are forced to go to a different panel, and try to build our image back up. Cpanel can be a good product if there was decent support behind it..but I'm sorry, I will never recommend cpanel again. I'm sorry for ever using it. We have had two major issues unresolved for two months, and are still awaiting answers from cpanel.net on how to fix them.

See my above response. If you are still having problems you can always fall back to DarkORB for support @ $65/hr (emergency # +1 570 840 9999)

That is some hellacious support. Nick, dont ask me what they are now, too late. Ask Carlos what they are since he is one of the ones who asked you on my behalf..

Personally I wouldnt offer a control panel except that is almost required nowdays by hosting clients. Everyone is looking for hosts that offer control panels nowdays...

Tim Greer

10-07-2001, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by bdraco
See my above response. If you are still having problems you can always fall back to DarkORB for support @ $65/hr (emergency # +1 570 840 9999)
[/B]

I'm going to be clear about this when I say this -- because I'm not wanting to start an argument, nor will I -- and we all know how this type of thing goes... but..., if people are paying for a license for a product that breaks or has bugs/problems (and this isn't a configuration error or anything that the host in question can do anything about), I don't think you should charge them _anything_ to provide the support or to fix the problems with your program -- unless, of course, this is somehow and specifically stated in the contract for the license. Of course otherwise, if you do fix things for free and provide free support if it is an issue they can't fix and isn't their fault and is specifically the fault of the Cpanel program, I think you should be clear about that so people don't assume the above is the case and they will have to either rely on non-developers to sit there and shrug about it and be just as stuck as the host is... or have it result in paying for the problems with the program they are already paying far too much for.

I suppose part of that is my opinion, but I just became curious, since problems with said program are certainly not specific to any one or even a few hosts that run this software. Than again, I guess people deserve what they get, if they don't make good choices, as cynical as that might be to say. Nonetheless, I'd _hope_ people (the developer in this case) would be fair about this if it's not a cause of anything other than the program itself that's at fault, and we all know that to be the case often enough. I think Webdude's comment, was a result of the denial that it's Cpanel that's at least sometimes the problem and the audacity to demand $65/hour to fix the problems or provide support for the problems with Cpanel.

However, and once again to be clear, that's certainly not to say that all problems are due to Cpanel, but there definitely are issues/problems with it that haven't been attended to, and to the people that have been complaining, you do state on your support forums that they should not contact you, but the distributor. Perhaps that might have been a per case basis, but certainly not all the time. I think, all in all, people don't like the run around, denial of any liability in regard to this program, and then not get any support, unless they pay. This is not a free program, even if quality would dictate otherwise. No flame intended -- and it's not, but the license is already far too excessive for the lack of quality and the excessive amount of problems, and that said, people find insult in these sort of responses.

Again, perhaps just my opinion. Let's all sincerely hope that NocSoft truly is a complete rewrite and NocSoft is coded and designed properly, but I won't get into making comments about my thoughts on that -- it would just be nice to see some genuine concern and effort to help the victims of this program, until they find an alternative, or are offered a solution to the many current problems. It's only fair, but that is only my opinion that is shared by many. Nonetheless, good luck with that to both of you.

bdraco

10-07-2001, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Tim_Greer

I'm going to be clear about this when I say this -- because I'm not wanting to start an argument, nor will I -- and we all know how this type of thing goes... but..., if people are paying for a license for a product that breaks or has bugs/problems (and this isn't a configuration error or anything that the host in question can do anything about), I don't think you should charge them _anything_ to provide the support or to fix the problems with your program -- unless, of course, this is somehow and specifically stated in the contract for the license. Of course otherwise, if you do fix things for free and provide free support if it is an issue they can't fix and isn't their fault and is specifically the fault of the Cpanel program, I think you should be clear about that so people don't assume the above is the case and they will have to either rely on non-developers to sit there and shrug about it and be just as stuck as the host is... or have it result in paying for the problems with the program they are already paying far too much for.

Distributors are susposed to weed out configuration problem vs actual problems.

Most Problems are usually the result of

1) Imporoper Install
2) Out of date perl version
3) Actual Bug

I suppose part of that is my opinion, but I just became curious, since problems with said program are certainly not specific to any one or even a few hosts that run this software.

Please elobrate on said problems.

Than again, I guess people deserve what they get, if they don't make good choices, as cynical as that might be to say. Nonetheless, I'd _hope_ people (the developer in this case) would be fair about this if it's not a cause of anything other than the program itself that's at fault, and we all know that to be the case often enough. I think Webdude's comment, was a result of the denial that it's Cpanel that's at least sometimes the problem and the audacity to demand $65/hour to fix the problems or provide support for the problems with Cpanel.

We are obviously not going to charge the customer if it turns out to be a problem with cpanel. Actually we usually give them a credit for it.

However, and once again to be clear, that's certainly not to say that all problems are due to Cpanel, but there definitely are issues/problems with it that haven't been attended to, and to the people that have been complaining, you do state on your support forums that they should not contact you, but the distributor. Perhaps that might have been a per case basis, but certainly not all the time. I think, all in all, people don't like the run around, denial of any liability in regard to this program, and then not get any support, unless they pay. This is not a free program, even if quality would dictate otherwise. No flame intended -- and it's not, but the license is already far too excessive for the lack of quality and the excessive amount of problems, and that said, people find insult in these sort of responses.

Darkorb will almost always give free support of any of the following conditions apply.

*) The customer has switched distributors and are still having the same problem.
*) It is obvious that the problem is a bug.

However it is worth noting that only a very small percent of people who have problems both to call or email me.

nick@darkorb.net
1-570-840-9999
(also been on cpanel.net whois for the longest time)

Again, perhaps just my opinion. Let's all sincerely hope that NocSoft truly is a complete rewrite and NocSoft is coded and designed properly, but I won't get into making comments about my thoughts on that -- it would just be nice to see some genuine concern and effort to help the victims of this program, until they find an alternative, or are offered a solution to the many current problems. It's only fair, but that is only my opinion that is shared by many. Nonetheless, good luck with that to both of you.

safu

10-07-2001, 08:23 PM

hi bdraco !

When I started the thread little did I think it would have the dancing fire icon by its side :(

cpanel may be good or bad but most hosts say they are having problem with that - they say they are having less problems or no problems with
Plesk or Hsphere or Ensim no admin panel at all like affordablehost.

Some hosts have explicit forums called " cpanel bug."

Since I am a dummy I feel how can everyone be wrong - I will avoid troubled water ! May be cpanel is hot in demand by many clients , but more and more , as a matter of fact, do not demand it - they want a host without it because of the troubles related with it - whose ever fault it may be - the faullt of the host or of the cpanel

some thoughts :

Does cpanel shows for both the host and the client the real bandwidth that is to be billed ?

compared to FTP file transfer and management , the main purpose of webhosting, is crude,slow and cumbersome when done thru cpanel

does cpanel genarate billings automatically for customers ?

why there is no log out button ?

You are serious that persons like Tim,Webdude , Tina,HostExp and lot more are all wrong ?

and

Can you make it open source to those who buy it ? ;)

HRBrendan

10-07-2001, 10:19 PM

We run VDI.net's webpanel software and have had no problems with stability whatsoever after the upgrades to the software that took place a month+ ago. We have had servers stay up well over 100 days straight running this software. We have it implemented and running on many thousands of sites so it is scalable as well. If you have any questions feel free to send me an email - bbrader@hostrocket.com

-Brendan

safu

10-07-2001, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by safu
hi bdraco !

some thoughts :

Does cpanel shows for both the host and the client the real bandwidth that is to be billed ?

compared to FTP file transfer and management , the main purpose of webhosting, is crude,slow and cumbersome when done thru cpanel

does cpanel genarate billings automatically for customers ?

why there is no log out button ?

You are serious that persons like Tim,Webdude , Tina,HostExp and lot more are all wrong ?

and

Can you make it open source to those who buy it ? ;)

hi ya !

my questions remain as above. I hope I am not being an @hole. I dont have much knowledge as Tim or Tina - neither I am very serious about cpanel as I am fine without that ( except the MySQL part ) - my post may be ignored as well - I dont mind -

btw - dont mind this is way out of the way - but have a look at
http://www.flingthecow.com/flash/
you have better control over a cow in a (flash) panel :D :D

Tim Greer

10-07-2001, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by bdraco
Please elobrate on said problems.
[/B]

* Invalid license errors for no reason, out of the blue -- and frequent.

* Incorrect bandwidth reporting.

* Incorrect disk space/quota reports.

* Sub domains often not working.

* POP email additions/editing not working or all current POP email addresses deleted when there's a new addition.

* Cpanel simply stops working and needs to be restarted quite often.

* When Cpanel is down, so is email and the user's shopping carts -- why these services rely on running with the Cpanel or go down when Cpanel just stops, makes no sense for a design.

* A lot of free, cheap scripts included in Cpanel -- and File manager and change password features insecure.

* WHM's add account/edit account, completely screws up named.conf file.

* Backup feature often fails to work.

* Mail forwarding often fails to work.

* Mailing lists, mail forwarding and POP email often fail to work -- and also fail to work with many simple and common set ups for the use of such tools as procmail.

* Again, poor choice with cheap, free scripts that have bugs, problems, security issues or consume too much resources. File Manager, Formmail, neomail, Akopia/Interchange, etc.

* Stats programs never work properly for everyone that has it work with Cpanel. Said stats tools work fine on non-Cpanel server installs, yet Cpanel servers don't update their site stats for many users.

* WHM's MySQL password modification for root, requires manual editing of various files to avoid massive errors.

* Site bandwidth not reset at start of month and users that get the bandwidth exceeded error, require the administrator to reset it manually so they don't continue to get that error.

* bandmin tries to use iptables, which just gives most every Cpanel server errors on boot, it should more intelligently try to make use of such things as ipchains instead.

* Password setting/adding/modification not intelligent and doesn't warn of invalid characters.

* Password setting/adding/modification poses security risk.

* Many Cpanel 'features' pose security risk.

* Cpanel poses security risk.

* With no action on anyone's part, different accounts suddenly have the wrong user or group owning some or all of their account's files.

* Log creation/download often fails.

* Frontpage extensions often fail to function and isn't intelligent enough and fails for various reasons on someone's account (i.e., .htaccess files for authentication on their admin section of a forum or guestbook, etc.)

* Install Perl module option often fails to work for many common Perl modules.

* Cpanel update script is not intelligent and will fail to fix, install or update and produce strange errors, if those are ran.

* Generate SSL certificate is not intelligent and often fails.

There's more, but I don't recall al off them currently off the top of my head. Some are trivial, of course, while other's are important and urgent... there's just too many to remember. I could make a list and post it, but I don't see the point. The point is, there's many (too many) problems. I realize that some of the above are trivial and I don't prefer to use WHM or CPanel if it can be avoided, so SSL, Perl modules and other such things, I'll just do myself anyway, so I don't care if they work or not. I also realize that possible one or two of the above are potentially an issue with the distributor as well.

Then, we have the poor choice of buggy, unstable, insecure or dated software that comes with Cpanel server installs. For example Exim is a very poor choice for a mail program, the headers are screwy, it's no more secure than Sendmail (at least you can better secure Sendmail in comparison), that's just one example of that. All in all, I'm posting these things from a user's point of view and because every host I know personally that runs this program, has these same problems. I'm sure some will confirm that, possible elaborate more on what and how, as well as possibly add a list of a few things I didn't mention that they know of -- because I couldn't recall them off the top of my head right now, and it's not really relevant to what I was saying all in all anyway.

That's to say, I know of the problems and the quality of this program and I'm not only very unhappy, it can be infuriating, people lose client's because the problems Cpanel creates for the end user, the downtime it can create for the user's Cpanel as well as the resulting downtime of shopping carts, email, stats, etc. So, I listed a few things, but I wasn't here to list them and I didn't need to elaborate on all of the issues, because I was simply saying it has a lot of problems and there's a list of only a few above. Basically, this Cpanel software, from what I can see, was simply a lot of very cheap and simple, free CGI scripts. Nothing wrong with that per se, but there's better software and scripts it could use all around. Then, the rest, is simple and broken code to start and stop services, add some data to some files and the like. I only see a lot of bad and okay, simple Perl code, and the other is a few simple Python scripts, expect scripts and some deal where you just used the Perl compiler to compile some simple Perl scripts.

There are problems with the design and the design is poor and all over the place. It makes use of files for storing information, modifying and gathering data from, that simply aren't needed, and they are just all over the place. All the 3rd party programs and scripts, which makes up 85% of the Cpanel program, are just not quality at all. Basically, it needs to be better structured, better designed, use quality and intelligent code, quality scripts/programs included/packaged with it and not these free, cheap one's it's using now that break and create problems. It should supply and interface to result in completion of a task with ease, speed and fool-proof for the clients -- that's the entire reason for a control panel. No other 3rd party scripts or tools should so much rely on Cpanel to be running. A complete rewrite of the code should be committed to, better checking of input, syntax and more intelligent functions to prevent security issues, bugs and breakage, etc.

Tim Greer

10-07-2001, 11:10 PM

[Continued from above]

I could go on and on and on about this, I could give hundreds of reasons, I could elaborate on each issue with syntax, security, poor design, where and how errors are produced, etc., but the point is this; This program is not quality. Perhaps some people are lucky, but many hosts that use many different distributors, all have many of these same problems. I have assisted different clients that host on Burst, VDI, ServerHost/Pluweb, Ventures Online, HostRocket, Pegasus web, Site5, and on and one and on. Not to mention Worldzone, and JaguarPC (since I work for them). The list is large. These people had different versions of Cpanel installed by different distributors (in fact, all of them, including you installing some, I believe) and they all have these issues (or most of them). Some are definitely, because how Cpanel is built. Some are only on certain hosts servers or they haven't had the problem yet, but they are definitely not anything in regard to setup or configuration.

My point, in addition to the above, is finally this; This program is being charged to many people that run servers and hosts, and they are being charged up to $100 a month, and all this program has done, albeit not the cause of all their problems, is create problems that are on enough of a scale that the user's have left, threatened to leave or the like, and there was nothing the administrator or tech support can do about it. They are limited to doing configuration changes, modifying ownership, permissions or the like. However, in reality, if you're dealing with a program that you can't access the source code to modify it, you're stuck with how that product functions. If outlook express just never worked, locked up, crashed, etc. on every version of Windows it ran on, with every configuration and tweaking you can do/make, then it's not quality.

Even if people could somehow update their Windows system with patches, fixes and modifying it to accommodate Outlook, it would be ridiculous to expect them to, let alone to blame Windows or the person that admins the server. However, I'm not saying that Cpanel requires that or would be so difficult. However, I am saying, that it's not working, people are actually paying for it for some reason because some people haven't been unfortunate enough to have some of the problems listed above, etc., and there's nothing anyone can do.

We don't develop it or play any role, we just sit here and deal with the problems and these problems are making my job so stressful, so difficult and so infuriate me to have to deal with and be exposed to, that we and other hosts had to find an alternative. We decided to have a better control panel product be developed (well, it was started before I was employed by Jaguar, so I don't play a role in the development, yet), which should be complete very soon, so we don't have to worry about this Cpanel crap much longer. And, really, although I'm sure you have potential, you still have a lot to learn. There's nothing wrong with that, but because you don't understand these things yet or how to design a program that people are going to use for business, it bothers me.

This program is not intelligent or quality enough to be used and a lot of web hosts didn't know about or find our about this until it was too late and they were stuck with it. Some are happy with it and don't have a lot of problems, but those hosts also don't understand the problems that are happening underneath or the problems it poses. These "happy hosts" have contacted me and said "Well, what are the problems? Can you show me some?". They offer me to show them using the demo account, for example, and I say "Sure, here's some quick examples..." I show them and they are shocked. Maybe you're not aware of this, maybe you are....? However, this is something I don't feel you should be playing with.

I'm sure that some day you might be able to develop a quality program, and maybe you will be able to in the next year or two as you learn, but sorry, not very soon, not by the looks of this and it upsets me that not only are there massive problems and this program should not be licensed for money and people should agree it's BETA and someone's pet, personal project, but the attitude I see a lot in the responses. Nonetheless, I'm glad to see that you don't refuse free support for the product if it is indeed the product at fault, and that's all I wanted to know anyway, since the rest is irrelevant, and in vain to discuss by the looks of it. This isn't supposed to insult you, but this is why I posted the content I did. I hope things change, but I don't see that happening.

I urge you to get some assistance and get these things fixed and for help with development of NocSoft. Provided you do, maybe things will look up for everyone. If you don't, well... Anyway, once again, good luck to everyone involved. We found an out and until then, we'll deal with problems, as usual, so we wait for our control panel to be completed and I can avoid and ignore all this Cpanel madness and posts. You can take this post for whatever you like and accept or deny whatever you like, or ask for reasons or proof, but I don't think that will ever end or be admitted if nothing can be even now. I'm not every host, these problems were there before I assisted them, I can't think of any reason how it can just be all these different hosts at fault, I really don't -- and most are definitely issues on every host running Cpanel. So, finally and again, good luck. Cheers!

PS: Don't misunderstand me, my complaints or my candor here. I don't like having problems, I'm sure you don't either. I don't want to have a stressful job and have my stomach sink when I get a ton of people complaining about yet another problem caused by Cpanel. I don't want to be angry trying to get my job done. I don't want this, I would prefer the Cpanel product didn't have these problems and was quality. I would prefer that, than be here complaining. I don't like this or to have to. However, wishing and hoping doesn't do much good. I'm not trying to be "mean" to you, but I've had enough of this cpanel and every time I or someone else posts about "yes, it has a lot of problems and it's not just us, I don't suggest you use it", you come in and post something like "what problems?", "Prove it's Cpanel and not a configuration issue", "it must be the distributor that installed it wrong" and on and on. Firstly, this is not one of those type reasons, and finally, if the distributor is screwing up so bad all the time, why do you allow them to distribute your product that apparently doesn't have these problems otherwise? Finally, everyone I know, has brought a lot of these things up to you in email and in your support forums. I'm not sure what else to say, but that's all irrelevant now anyway. Well, good luck.

PSS: I didn't bother to mention all the reasons why Cpanel gets in the way, interferes and makes it difficult to impossible to secure the server, have it run more efficiently and close a lot of security risks it poses on a shared server -- prevents modifiactions, updates, upgrades and the like. This is a huge deal and a big issue that no host running Cpanel can get around, unless they put a lot of effort into chaning a great many things and how Cpanel works and disable some things on it.

PSSS: Also, I want to be clear about my previous post. I actually think HostRocket doesn't offer dedicated servers after all, but I thought I recalled assisting a dedicated/collcation client on them, but I certainly could be wrong. That's still not to say that HostRocket isn't subject to the common faults and issues in Cpanel and Brendan, I invite you to email me, as you did for people to email you above, and perhaps I can show you some of that I'm talking about, before you tell people everything's A'okay. However, I'm glad that you aren't having any problems anymore.

SoftWareRevue

10-07-2001, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by safu
. . . . .http://www.flingthecow.com/flash/ . . . . .LOL . . . . I couldn't stop. :D

Nicholas Brown

10-08-2001, 03:22 AM

Well, I can confirm somethings we've seen on more than one of our servers:

* Incorrect bandwidth reporting. <Yes>

* Incorrect disk space/quota reports. <Yes>

* Sub domains often not working. <Yes>

* With no action on anyone's part, different accounts suddenly have the wrong user or group owning some or all of their account's files. <Yes!>

'Spose I should have reported them to Nick :o

bdraco

10-08-2001, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by Tim_Greer
[B]

* Invalid license errors for no reason, out of the blue -- and frequent.

Never heard this one reported before since changes about 7 months ago.. please elaborate if this is still happening.

* Incorrect bandwidth reporting.

WHM only reports HTTP bandwidth. Do you know of a good way to track bandwidth for ip-less hosts?

* Incorrect disk space/quota reports.

This is a known problem on redhat 7.1

* Sub domains often not working.

This is always a problem with resolv.conf

* POP email additions/editing not working or all current POP email addresses deleted when there's a new addition.

This is caused by / running out of disk space

* Cpanel simply stops working and needs to be restarted quite often.

Are you refering to cpaneld ?

* When Cpanel is down, so is email and the user's shopping carts -- why these services rely on running with the Cpanel or go down when Cpanel just stops, makes no sense for a design.

That doesn't make any sense since interchange and exim are both independent processes of cpaneld

* A lot of free, cheap scripts included in Cpanel -- and File manager and change password features insecure.

How are they insecure?

* WHM's add account/edit account, completely screws up named.conf file.

Please elaborate

* Backup feature often fails to work.

[edited].. thought you were refering to server back.

The backup archive is created on the fly if their site is very large and they are on a slow connection their web browser is probably going to timeout

* Mail forwarding often fails to work.

The only case of this I've seen is usually a dns problem

* Mailing lists, mail forwarding and POP email often fail to work -- and also fail to work with many simple and common set ups for the use of such tools as procmail.

We don't support procmail, we use exim filters instead

* Again, poor choice with cheap, free scripts that have bugs, problems, security issues or consume too much resources. File Manager, Formmail, neomail, Akopia/Interchange, etc.

Please elaborate on these security problems

* Stats programs never work properly for everyone that has it work with Cpanel. Said stats tools work fine on non-Cpanel server installs, yet Cpanel servers don't update their site stats for many users.

Cpanel stats only update if the server load is less then 80%. If you are consistantly beating your server to death your stats will never update.

* WHM's MySQL password modification for root, requires manual editing of various files to avoid massive errors.

Please submit a bug report for this .. I've heard of this one before but never recieved a clear idea what is going on with it.

* Site bandwidth not reset at start of month and users that get the bandwidth exceeded error, require the administrator to reset it manually so they don't continue to get that error.

Please submit a bug report

* bandmin tries to use iptables, which just gives most every Cpanel server errors on boot, it should more intelligently try to make use of such things as ipchains instead.

This has been fixed.. I assumed that if you are running 2.4 you would want to use iptables since it has a much better model then iptables, however redhat has ipchains compiled into the kernel for some insane reason.

* Password setting/adding/modification not intelligent and doesn't warn of invalid characters.

There is about 4 places where we set passwords, please elaborate on which one you are refering 2.

* Password setting/adding/modification poses security risk.

How so?

* Many Cpanel 'features' pose security risk.

I ask again .. how so?

* Cpanel poses security risk.

Same as above

* With no action on anyone's part, different accounts suddenly have the wrong user or group owning some or all of their account's files.

I've never heard of this one before ...

* Log creation/download often fails.

Download from where?

* Frontpage extensions often fail to function and isn't intelligent enough and fails for various reasons on someone's account (i.e., .htaccess files for authentication on their admin section of a forum or guestbook, etc.)

The lastest fp install scripts remove those files

* Install Perl module option often fails to work for many common Perl modules.

Please be more specific ... I'm aware that perl modules which need stdin to install them will not work and there is no way to force this to happen without logging in.

* Cpanel update script is not intelligent and will fail to fix, install or update and produce strange errors, if those are ran.

Again, please elaborate

* Generate SSL certificate is not intelligent and often fails.

Please be more specific

There's more, but I don't recall al off them currently off the top of my head. Some are trivial, of course, while other's are important and urgent... there's just too many to remember. I could make a list and post it, but I don't see the point. The point is, there's many (too many) problems. I realize that some of the above are trivial and I don't prefer to use WHM or CPanel if it can be avoided, so SSL, Perl modules and other such things, I'll just do myself anyway, so I don't care if they work or not. I also realize that possible one or two of the above are potentially an issue with the distributor as well.

If you don't report a problem there is no way there an be any hope of getting it fixed ...

Then, we have the poor choice of buggy, unstable, insecure or dated software that comes with Cpanel server installs. For example Exim is a very poor choice for a mail program, the headers are screwy, it's no more secure than Sendmail (at least you can better secure Sendmail in comparison), that's just one example of that.

Excuse me ... how many remote root exploits has sendmail had in the past ?? Compare that to the amount exim has had.

See securityfocus link @ the bottom of this post for proof

All in all, I'm posting these things from a user's point of view and because every host I know personally that runs this program, has these same problems. I'm sure some will confirm that, possible elaborate more on what and how, as well as possibly add a list of a few things I didn't mention that they know of -- because I couldn't recall them off the top of my head right now, and it's not really relevant to what I was saying all in all anyway.

That's to say, I know of the problems and the quality of this program and I'm not only very unhappy, it can be infuriating, people lose client's because the problems Cpanel creates for the end user, the downtime it can create for the user's Cpanel as well as the resulting downtime of shopping carts, email, stats, etc. So, I listed a few things, but I wasn't here to list them and I didn't need to elaborate on all of the issues, because I was simply saying it has a lot of problems and there's a list of only a few above. Basically, this Cpanel software, from what I can see, was simply a lot of very cheap and simple, free CGI scripts. Nothing wrong with that per se, but there's better software and scripts it could use all around. Then, the rest, is simple and broken code to start and stop services, add some data to some files and the like. I only see a lot of bad and okay, simple Perl code, and the other is a few simple Python scripts, expect scripts and some deal where you just used the Perl compiler to compile some simple Perl scripts.

There are problems with the design and the design is poor and all over the place. It makes use of files for storing information, modifying and gathering data from, that simply aren't needed, and they are just all over the place. All the 3rd party programs and scripts, which makes up 85% of the Cpanel program, are just not quality at all. Basically, it needs to be better structured, better designed, use quality and intelligent code, quality scripts/programs included/packaged with it and not these free, cheap one's it's using now that break and create problems. It should supply and interface to result in completion of a task with ease, speed and fool-proof for the clients -- that's the entire reason for a control panel. No other 3rd party scripts or tools should so much rely on Cpanel to be running. A complete rewrite of the code should be committed to, better checking of input, syntax and more intelligent functions to prevent security issues, bugs and breakage, etc.

Securityfocus links:
You may have to choose Vulnerabilities from the drop down box and resumit if you get an internal error.

Exim Exploits:
http://www.securityfocus.com/cgi-bin/search.pl?category=Vulnerabilities&query=exim

Sendmail Exploits:
http://www.securityfocus.com/cgi-bin/search.pl?category=Vulnerabilities&query=sendmail

bdraco

10-08-2001, 03:36 AM

Originally posted by HRBrendan
We run VDI.net's webpanel software and have had no problems with stability whatsoever after the upgrades to the software that took place a month+ ago. We have had servers stay up well over 100 days straight running this software. We have it implemented and running on many thousands of sites so it is scalable as well. If you have any questions feel free to send me an email - bbrader@hostrocket.com

-Brendan

fyi .. webpanel is based on the May 01 Build of Cpanel ...

bdraco

10-08-2001, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by Nicholas Brown
Well, I can confirm somethings we've seen on more than one of our servers:

'Spose I should have reported them to Nick :o

About the random file ownership, please post a bug about that .. I need to know which files are getting modified..

Alan - Vox

10-08-2001, 03:57 AM

Well i know WHM is insecure, there is a little trick that can be used by a reseller to stop apache loading, im still waiting for them to look at the problem.

bdraco

10-08-2001, 04:15 AM

Alan:

Please sumbit a bug report

http://web.cpanel.net/bugzilla/enter_bug.cgi

Tim Greer

10-08-2001, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by bdraco
Never heard this one reported before since changes about 7 months ago.. please elaborate if this is still happening.

Contact Carlos, this has happened more than a few times in less than a month. This also happened on WZ's servers out of the blue. How do I "elaborate" on invalid license errors that have no reason or known cause? I assume that is with the distributor and I was simply listing one of many things. You asked me to "elaborate" on the problems hosts were having that I knew of, and I listed them. Now you want me to "elaborate" on how and why and when as well? I'm not going to, nor do I have the time, to troubleshoot and test the software and report everything to you. I simply pointed out a few of many problems that you asked me to tell you of.

WHM only reports HTTP bandwidth. Do you know of a good way to track bandwidth for ip-less hosts?

Bandwidth readings/reports, are what the user's rely on to get accurate readings. Further, this is what results in bandwidth exceeded limits that might result in their account being suspended, so I brought this up and it's a common complain with many clients on many servers. I can at least and definitely suggest a means to get accurate HTTP bandwidth reports. There's easy ways to accurately add the FTP usage as well. And, if you used a decent email client in place of Exim of all things (which Exim could surely be configured to do itself anyway), you could count the bandwidth for POP and SMTP. You don't need to rely on a unique IP for that on the server side.

This is a known problem on redhat 7.1

Yet I've not witnessed this problem on any Redhat 7.1 server with the disk space quota issues, unless they were running Cpanel. That's not to say it's not an issue with 7.1, but what explains this same problem on Redhat 6.2 servers?

This is always a problem with resolv.conf

Wrong. You're reaching here. The sub domain issue is definitely *not* a result of any problems with resolv.conf. You do know what that file does, don't you? Further, I never said it was a resolution or DNS error or anything of the like. The sub domains sometimes are not even added properly. That has *nothing* to do with resolv.conf and that file has absolutely *no* reason in the world to be modified once it's set up initially and properly -- and that's easier than a sneeze.

This is caused by / running out of disk space

Wrong again, The user's disk space as quota had plenty of room, as did the partition (as did all partitions). The POP email accounts created or lost, is not a result of lack of disk space. It's not difficult to GUESS that could be the reason, since that would be the reason for about anything to fail, so please don't try and give me this excuse. This is the attitude I speak of. Believe me here, you don't know more than I do, even if you want to think you do. I'm not ignorant enough to not be aware of things like disk space issues causing files to not be created or modified. Why even bother asking me these questions, if this is how you're going to respond?

Are you refering to cpaneld ?

This has happened where all Cpanel services are down (probably just shut down for no reason), and sometimes just the admin (WHM) port works, yet the user's Cpanel port doesn't work, because it's just suddenly not listening anymore.

That doesn't make any sense since interchange and exim are both independent processes of cpaneld

You're telling ME it doesn't make any sense!? I know it doesn't! I'll tell you what does though -- when Cpanel is down, so is email and their shopping carts. You tell me, don't ask me how your program works. I can only assume that it's something that literally puts Cpanel through some shutdown phase and shuts down those services along with it (i.e., how Cpanel start or stop, will start and stop Interchange and cppop along with it). Is that so difficult to make sense out of? It makes sense to me in that regard, but I'm not going to guess how or why that is, but I can verify that it happens for no reason with no one shutting down or restarting anything. So, again, don't ask me.

How are they insecure?

Bad code, lack of checking of values passed to it, open to buffer overflows, exploits, abuse in various means by user's on the same system as well as web based accesses due to how poor they are coded. Do I need to explain how code can be abused?

Please elaborate

Well, here's an elaboration: I look at the named.conf file after adding and removing some accounts or domains and the named.conf file has tons of syntax errors where it removed only parts of a zone file specification and leaves in two or three parts that screw up the configuration, I have to go in and manually edit the file and fix the syntax errors so named will actually run again. BTW, that reminds me, why the hack would you have the sub domains each have their own zone file and not use stubs or something? That's another poor design.

[edited].. thought you were refering to server back.

I don't know why that is, but okay.

The backup archive is created on the fly if their site is very large and they are on a slow connection their web browser is probably going to timeout

No, that is not the case. I didn't say when they download their backup, I said when it's created. This is not only in regard to large sites either. And, let me explain something else before you ask it -- on all these issues, there was plenty of disk space on all the partitions and for the user's account as well.

The only case of this I've seen is usually a dns problem

I suppose that can surely be a reason... one reason... but like anything else, DNS issues can cause lot's of problems. This, however, has nothing to do with a friggin' DNS problem. Come on....

Tim Greer

10-08-2001, 07:31 AM

We don't support procmail, we use exim filters instead

Procmail is superior, many client's scripts and programs make use of it and support it. Exim's filters, I admit I haven't looked into too much, but they are nowhere near as capable and efficient as procmail. Nonetheless, I simply mentioned (also, procmail... blah, blah, blah).. that was not the meat of this problem I mentioned about POP email and mail lists and mail forwarding... but, oh well.

Please elaborate on these security problems

Refer to my above post. I suggest you educate yourself on what types of code present security issues, because I don't have the time (or desire) to point them all out to you.

Cpanel stats only update if the server load is less then 80%. If you are consistantly beating your server to death your stats will never update.

Now, this is getting completely lame and I'm tired of this. What kind of a response is that? Do you have this much trouble accepting the fact that your program you created indeed has definitely flaws, or are you going to guess poor excuses and assume people are only having problems because they are out of disk space and their server loads are at 5,000%... and only question every single thing someone points out -- when you ASKED me to tell you what one's. Had I known I had to present papers about it and explain how things function, I'd not have bothered to do anything than list the names of the function that failed without even mentioning in what way they failed... or I'd not have bothered at all.

Please submit a bug report for this .. I've heard of this one before but never received a clear idea what is going on with it.

It's pretty simple. If you understood the simple how and why, which you should understand/know to be doing this, let alone to have the nerve to insult and question everything I mention, you'd be able to fix it in a few seconds. Of course, that's not the case. Maybe I'm getting a little mean here after all, but I don't know or care what you're problem here is, this is unacceptable and you have no right to be responding to me in the manner you have. If you're heard about this, and I've just said it, why do I need to open a bug report about yet another issue that you'll flip out about and respond with this same nonsense. This is exactly the type of response that every single person I know gets, when they contact you.

Please submit a bug report

Please educate yourself to be able to build a quality product so you don't have to ask someone you go out of your way to insult and annoy, to help you.

This has been fixed.. I assumed that if you are running 2.4 you would want to use iptables since it has a much better model then iptables, however redhat has ipchains compiled into the kernel for some insane reason.

Okay.............

There is about 4 places where we set passwords, please elaborate on which one you are refering 2.

All of them, does that help?

How so?

Wouldn't you like to know? See, I can be a jerk too. Give me a demo with only the password change option and I'll show you how to de-bone a file system. Anymore questions?

I ask again .. how so?

Why are you asking me for help, when you don't believe or accept anything I tell you is a problem? Let's just blame it on Redhat and move on, okay?

Same as above

Sure... give me a demo account, preferably on a shared server that you have data you'd like to keep and I'll show you the hard way, just like all your Cpanel client's have to live with and then I'll hassle you with questions like you're just a trouble maker. Sound fair?

I've never heard of this one before ...

Well, a user just posted in this thread confirming that he has user's files suddenly owned by the wrong group and/or user on one or more (or all) of that user's files. Don't you test your software?

Download from where?

You have a log file option, don't you?

The lastest fp install scripts remove those files

Why would it remove them? I'd think people would want to keep their files that made the admin sections of their web sites stay secure.

Please be more specific ... I'm aware that perl modules which need stdin to install them will not work and there is no way to force this to happen without logging in.

To be honest, I tried to install a few for someone that asked me to do it. They asked it the WHM module install worked. I said, "Well, probably not, or just enough to give you problems, like everything else in WHM/Cpanel, but you can give it a try". They did and it didn't work. I did and it didn't work. This was for various common modules, and I don't recall because they were so common. I told them I prefer to install it by hand anyway and have better control and we went with that option. End of story.

Again, please elaborate

Hmm, let's see... I'll say it again. You run the Cpanel script to update Cpanel (or run a "fix" which is so trivial, I could die with laughter) and it gives various errors. I copied them somewhere, I'll see if I can find them.

Please be more specific

Okay, I'm "specific" and you're a "programming guru"... there... Okay, let's end that fantasy world for a second here... SSL GENERATION THROUGH CPANEL DOESN'T WORK. Should I say it a 3rd time? Specifically, it doesn't work. It doesn't generate valid or correct certificates. Are you playing a game here? If we are, just say so.

If you don't report a problem there is no way there an be any hope of getting it fixed ...

True, and there's no hope in getting it fixed either, if all you're going to do, is be an arrogant, sarcastic and doubtful person to people that report these issues to you. I'm not here to go through every single one of the very many things wrong with Cpanel and WHM and help you fix them. Even if I was willing, I don't have any code to work with to suggest or warn you about anything. All I know, is there are a massive amount of problems and when anyone brings them up, they are met with this attitude of yours that makes it even more frustrating. Now, you act like no one brings these issues up?

Excuse me ... how many remote root exploits has sendmail had in the past ?? Compare that to the amount exim has had.

Well, "Excuse ME!", but how many of those "Sendmail exploits" were a specific result due to people running it that didn't know how to properly set up, configure and secure it, if they knew how? 99% of the people that were victims of Sendmail exploits, were specifically due to A: Not keeping updated on fixes and patches. And even more so: B: 99% of them just set it up with the default install/configuration. Exim is still too green, it's security history is not that good, it's not mature and doesn't have enough features to put it in the same league as something like Sendmail or Qmail -- assuming you actually know how to configure and secure it -- and just because Exim is basic and has a dummy install, does not mean it's a good choice. Speaking of Qmail, can you think of one thing that Exim has over Qmail that would make it a better choice? I'm not going to argue about Sendmail, I realize it's had problems, but mainly due to poor configurations (or none) that I have seen. There are many sites that discuss and outline all the problems with Exim, but as with all the other programs Cpanel uses, you must not have looked into the problems those programs had. I suggest you look for sites with information and comparisons with stability, performance and security for all the mail programs mentioned in this post and see what I mean and why. I can show you sites with Apache security history, but that doesn't mean IIS is better.

See securityfocus link @ the bottom of this post for proof

Look at the same for Qmail... if that's what you want to argue. Then, tell me honestly (and "prove it"), that Sendmail was such a security issue because of how the user set it up and ran it, or if it was the program itself. Then, with that in mind, compare Exim and Qmail. I'm really wondering what possible reason anyone could have to use something like Exim over Qmail. I guess you couldn't 'automate' a Qmail setup with your Cpanel software...

Securityfocus links:
You may have to choose Vulnerabilities from the drop down box and resumit if you get an internal error.

Exim Exploits:
http://www.securityfocus.com/cgi-bin/search.pl?category=Vulnerabilities&query=exim

Sendmail Exploits:
http://www.securityfocus.com/cgi-bin/search.pl?category=Vulnerabilities&query=sendmail

Nifty, now check for Qmail Exploits and see what you _don't_ find. Game over, this is old. You're right, I concede, J. Nick Koston, you win. Cpanel rules, there's nothing wrong with it -- it's just the admin, the user, the user's ISP/connection, the user's browser, Linux Redhat 6.2 and 7.1, and just a lot of complainers looking to complain about nonexistent problems. Okay, I admit it -- I purposely screw with the servers to make Cpanel look like it's screwing up, so I can work 18 hour shifts and have no fun most week days. I'm sick, I know. Sorry to have wasted your time. I'll be serious now and leave you alone... I don't know what I was thinking and I hope you, Nick and God, can forgive me.

PS: Nick, THIS is a hole in the ground, and THIS is a proper server configuration... can you tell the difference?

Alan - Vox

10-08-2001, 07:41 AM

Nick i put a bug report in a few days ago, i left the status as unconfirmed because ive only tested it on 1 server.

Tim Greer

10-08-2001, 07:58 AM

Anyway, I'm not here to try and explain and fix all the bugs in Cpanel... I'm only going to live so long after all. :-) Seriously though... to get back to the original subject or this thread. Yes, Cpanel servers should probably be avoided, and for various reasons. I alone covered a few previously -- and whatever they are blamed on, the fact is, these problems only mysteriously appear on Cpanel servers. Go figure. But, rather than guess, my advice and the history of Cpanel, is to certainly avoid them. Not entirely per se, and I should be clear. After all, it's evidenced some places on the WHT (webhostingtalk.com) board, that some hosts haven't had some of the more major problems... maybe not yet and maybe everyone I personally know of, as just the most unlucky people in web hosting history. I'm really not trying to be cynical here, but I can't think of anything on it that hasn't broken or doesn't still break -- not one single feature and I honestly don't think it should be licensed or sold.. this is not a professional product and I've outlined many reasons and aspects of why I believe that to be true. Now, finally in regards to maybe why you should possibly still go with a Cpanel based server, is because some of the company's that run Cpanel are good, knowledgeable people and you can still get a good, positive and productive hosting experience.

However, all the people I know of that fit that category of Cpanel hosts that are skilled and knowledgeable and educated enough, are all (ALL) moving away from Cpanel and finding alternatives or having alternatives developed (or developing them themselves). To me, that means a lot, and my negative and continued negative experience provides me much unfortunate insight to say this in confidence. I'd prefer this not be the case and I'd prefer to not argue with the developer about it any longer, like has happened recently in this very thread. I made an effort to explain, so, so be it. Anyway, good luck everyone, I'm quite done with this thread and I believe I gave realistic reasons and scenario's. All in all, check out the host and see what you think.

Rather than Cpanel being a deciding factor, rely on other aspects, because all in all and ultimately, you can still have a good hosting experience and the provider in question very likely would be willing to set you up on a non-Cpanel server if that's a concern -- and I'm only confirming from a professional and experiences stand point, that I would indeed find it a valid concern myself. However, there are other things to consider and you should be able to find a reasonable, good/decent or excellent result if you're just educated and caring about the choices you make. That's my last words on this subject. Thanks. :-)

Nicholas Brown

10-08-2001, 08:07 AM

Hi Tim :D - Long time no see :)

Nicholas Brown

10-08-2001, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by bdraco

About the random file ownership, please post a bug about that .. I need to know which files are getting modified..

will do :o

Tim Greer

10-08-2001, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by Nicholas Brown
oh dear - Im escaping before tim blows :crap: :eek2:

Okay, THAT'S IT!! Get ready for a scene that can only be compared to a really outrageous Monty Python episode. :-)

AH-Tina

10-08-2001, 08:11 AM

Tim, that was beautiful! :) *wiping tear from eye*

Can you imagine what would happen if I started answering my customers' tech support calls with "Tell me what is causing your problem and I'll look into it and possibly fix it for you. If you can't tell me what is causing your problem, then obviously it isn't OUR fault."

To the Cpanel guy - you should take a course on spin control and public relations. You aren't winning any points here.

--Tina

Tim Greer

10-08-2001, 08:12 AM

Originally posted by Nicholas Brown
Hi Tim :D - Long time no see :)

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you; The fastest post editor in the West! *L* So, young Skywalker, you thought you were quicker than I!?

[edit: I mean, Hey! :-) I'd probably see you around ICQ more, if that thing ever worked properly... if you have AIM though, say hello sometime...]

Tim Greer

10-08-2001, 08:14 AM

Nicholas Brown

10-08-2001, 08:20 AM

Well, you have the title of Typing Addict - you cant have SpeedyEditor too ;)

Originally posted by Tim_Greer

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you; The fastest post editor in the West! *L* So, young Skywalker, you thought you were quicker than I!?

Originally posted by Tim_Greer

[edit: I mean, Hey! :-) I'd probably see you around ICQ more, if that thing ever worked properly... if you have AIM though, say hello sometime...]

I havent reinstalled AIM since formatting my box :o - Id better Install it I think :D

Tim Greer

10-08-2001, 08:38 AM

I'll stop posting my goofy replies now, but I'm not longer a Typing Addict.. I'm not.. I'm not.. see, I told you... see.. just look at my title to see I'm not... and that I haven't been for a while.. see.. see my title? You see? See! Oh... well, maybe the title should be changed back.. hmmm.. Oh, did I ever tell you that story about.. oh.. oppps...

bdraco

10-08-2001, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by AffordableHost
Tim, that was beautiful! :) *wiping tear from eye*

Can you imagine what would happen if I started answering my customers' tech support calls with "Tell me what is causing your problem and I'll look into it and possibly fix it for you. If you can't tell me what is causing your problem, then obviously it isn't OUR fault."

To the Cpanel guy - you should take a course on spin control and public relations. You aren't winning any points here.

--Tina

I'mnot trying to win any points (I've never been a fan of sugar coated PR).. I'm just trying to get useful bug reports. SSL is broken is not a very useful report. When I click the button X.. I get this error message is much more useful. Just saying something is broken and not telling how it is broken doesn't help. I'm not asking for the cause of the problem, just something I can reproduce and then track down to find the cause of the problem.

AH-Tina

10-08-2001, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by bdraco

I'mnot trying to win any points (I've never been a fan of sugar coated PR).. I'm just trying to get useful bug reports. SSL is broken is not a very useful report. When I click the button X.. I get this error message is much more useful. Just saying something is broken and not telling how it is broken doesn't help. I'm not asking for the cause of the problem, just something I can reproduce and then track down to find the cause of the problem.

It's all in the way you present yourself. You are coming across very arrogant, cocky and non-helpful. Personally, I've been ready to sign up with two different providers here (one upstream, one control panel) until I saw their attitudes, not unlike yours, on this forum. It tells me ALOT about how a potential support issue might be handled.

Again, it's all in the way you present yourself. Had you said "Tim, I would like to work with you on these issues. Would you mind if I contact you off this forum?" I think we would then get the feeling that you are at least interested in hearing how your system might be vastly improved.

You are basically coming across like you're telling Tim that he's being a bother...unless he gives you hard proof, you're going to continue to believe that there are no problems. Personally, if someone told me that my system had major security leaks - I would be bending over backwards to be nice and get that person to help me understand where the perceived risk is. I certainly wouldn't be antagonizing that person to PUBLICLY point out how to break my system!!!

Tim is a pretty helpful guy - someone that you could definitely benefit from by having him on your side.

--Tina

bdraco

10-08-2001, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by AffordableHost

It's all in the way you present yourself. You are coming across very arrogant, cocky and non-helpful. Personally, I've been ready to sign up with two different providers here (one upstream, one control panel) until I saw their attitudes, not unlike yours, on this forum. It tells me ALOT about how a potential support issue might be handled.

Again, it's all in the way you present yourself. Had you said "Tim, I would like to work with you on these issues. Would you mind if I contact you off this forum?" I think we would then get the feeling that you are at least interested in hearing how your system might be vastly improved.

You are basically coming across like you're telling Tim that he's being a bother...unless he gives you hard proof, you're going to continue to believe that there are no problems. Personally, if someone told me that my system had major security leaks - I would be bending over backwards to be nice and get that person to help me understand where the perceived risk is. I certainly wouldn't be antagonizing that person to PUBLICLY point out how to break my system!!!

Tim is a pretty helpful guy - someone that you could definitely benefit from by having him on your side.

--Tina

Tim has always complained about cpanel for the longest time.. but never filed a bug report or bothered to use proper channels to get things fixed. Instead he always posts it to a public forum so I'm sorry if I have a hard time taking him seriously.

AH-Tina

10-08-2001, 09:24 AM

Okay, I guess you're more interested in him filing the "proper" report in the "proper" manner than working with him.

Again, if someone told me my system was highly unsecure - I wouldn't care if they dropped the information in a leaflet, from an airplane...I would make a real effort to get that person on my team ASAP.

Good luck with your Cpanel thing.

--Tina

Chicken

10-08-2001, 10:20 AM

I read it slightly different. Although I have felt that some posts hinted at a, "It's not the fault of cpanel" tone, I didn't really get that from this thread as others have. But anywhooo.

It surely isn't an easy script to trouble shoot, bug report, and fix as it is many scripts. I've seen bug reports for even simple, one function scripts and know it can get ugly. As soon as you 'improve' it, 6,000 other little bugs crop up that were unanticipated. I understand this.

My only personal experience with cpanel (in any form) was with Burst, when they were at VDI. I like the script, but a good portion of the links didn't work, a good portion of the scripts didn't work, and I knew that giving that to my clients would have been a mistake. The advantage of 'doing everything' is sometimes outweighed by it having errors.

Look forward to the new offerings by everyone though....

This thread has drifted far from the original post (and request), not sure if it should remain here to moved to the control panel forum....

LLT

10-08-2001, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by AffordableHost
Okay, I guess you're more interested in him filing the "proper" report in the "proper" manner than working with him.

Again, if someone told me my system was highly unsecure - I wouldn't care if they dropped the information in a leaflet, from an airplane...I would make a real effort to get that person on my team ASAP.

Good luck with your Cpanel thing.

--Tina

What is wrong with following the proper means for submitting a bug report?? Do you really expect developers to comb forums? Cpanel has a bug reporting system, as well as support forums. I think it's great Nick is here answering questions and participating at all, and I really don't think it's unreasonable to ask that if there's a problem/issue/bug that it get reported in an organized manner. It's just like politics, if you don't vote, then you really have no legitimate claim to bitch about the things you don't approve of. The same thing applies here, if you don't submit a bug report through official channels, then don't jump on a public forum with attacks that contain no detail.

I also have to say I agree with Nick about a serious lack of information provided by Tim regarding the serious issues he alleges. "SSL is broken" is infact, not nearly detailed enough to be of any benefit to anyone. He included no error messages, nothing to backup any of his claims. Please understand, I'm not implying in any way that Tim is inventing these problems, I'm just saying, developers aren't mind readers, and you need to help them help you.

At any rate, I think Nick answered Tim's post the best that he possibly could with the information provided. I don't think it warranted the "Wouldn't you like to know" condescending attitude that is of no benefit to anyone on this board.

I'd also like to add, for those who accused Nick of being arrogant and cocky, that he is personally helping me with Cpanel licensing (not a technical issue) So, perhaps that is the reason why I am quick to defend, because I don't see him being arrogant and cocky, but rather, very helpful and generous.

Incidentally, Tina, earlier in this thread, you directed people with pre-sales question to e-mail the proper address, because you don't have the time to comb the forums. How is this any different?? Seems somewhat hypocritical, to be honest.

AH-Tina

10-08-2001, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by LLT
Incidentally, Tina, earlier in this thread, you directed people with pre-sales question to e-mail the proper address, because you don't have the time to comb the forums. How is this any different?? Seems somewhat hypocritical, to be honest.

If you read my post, I said basically that he should have offered to contact Tim off this board - rather than grill him about it. Just as I directed the pre-sales question to contact me off this board.

This is NOT a support issue with Tim, as he doesn't use Cpanel (as far as I understand the situation) - so he is under no obligation to fill out any sort of a trouble ticket. He has worked with it before and offered the information to the Cpanel people...who, from the way I read it, are less than grateful for receiving this information.

Maybe a better way of handling it would have been to thank Tim for his concern and offer to talk to him on the phone or something so that they could get the specifics.

--Tina

safu

10-08-2001, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by SoftWareRevue

http://www.flingthecow.com/flash

LOL . . . . I couldn't stop. :D

thanxxx . At least some one noted that.
Thats the best control panel ( though for a cow ;) ) I have seen :D

Tim - thankxx to for the whole info.

Now can some one please make an useful newby/dummy summary of these 5 pages ? Thankxxx :)

Webdude

10-08-2001, 02:45 PM

LLT, pardon me for being a bit blunt, but his support is seriously lacking. I generally dont deal directly with Nick, I deal with Carlos. When there is an issue that Carlos cant fix, he goes to Nick. Even today, I bet I could ask Carlos if Nick has gotten back to him, and I would be told no.

Two months now, and thousands in lost profits, our problems remain. We are dropping CPanel. Nick shouldnt be asking me anything here, he should be going back and asking Carlos. I have sent several messages to Nick via icq, only to be ignored. I no longer have an interest in working out the problems. I have been ignored, and Carlos has been ignored. A business cant run properly using something like cpanel if there are serious issues that are simply ignored by the support. I have been given no reason to think this will change either.

CPanel could be a good product, and it may be one day. Right now, there are just too many probs and too little support.

Palm

10-08-2001, 03:31 PM

I hope this is a wake up call for the developers.

safu

10-08-2001, 09:28 PM

hi ya
webdude - not pardon - I priase you for being blunt.

bdraco or the cpanel guy did not reply to my queries in bold

I>> hope this is a wake up call for the developers. _palm

hope so - but cpanel is a buggy , heavy stuff - I will avoid it as much as I can and many people will avoid it too - nutshell conclusion of these 5 pages for me.

bdraco

10-08-2001, 10:32 PM

Not sure how this message ended up as just a quote, however I don't even remember posting it so I'm removing it.

Jag

10-08-2001, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by bdraco
CPanel could be a good product, and it may be one day. Right now, there are just too many probs and too little support.

Nick, are you admitting that Cpanel is not a quality product right now and severly lacks supports?

If so thats a bold and gutsy statement to make publicly for a product you are charging for and you may want to *WARN* people about that at cpanel.net before they purchase this product.

LLT

10-08-2001, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by Jag

Nick, are you admitting that Cpanel is not a quality product right now and severly lacks supports?

If so thats a bold and gutsy statement to make publicly for a product you are charging for and you may want to *WARN* people about that at cpanel.net before they purchase this product.

Jag, I think that was a quote from webdude.. lol ;)

LLT

10-08-2001, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by Webdude
[B]LLT, pardon me for being a bit blunt, but his support is seriously lacking. I generally dont deal directly with Nick, I deal with Carlos. When there is an issue that Carlos cant fix, he goes to Nick. Even today, I bet I could ask Carlos if Nick has gotten back to him, and I would be told no.

I'm not familiar with all of the procedures, and I'm not sure who Carlos is, but it's my understanding that support issues travel through a hierarchy. The distributor, I believe, is the first point of contact, then I would assume if the issue can't be resolved, that *they* contact DarkOrb. I would equate this to the same thing as when you buy a PC from Compaq or HP. You can't call Microsoft for support (well you can, at a not-so-reasonable rate) - You contact whoever you bought the PC from for MS support.

Jag

10-08-2001, 11:06 PM

Ah I see, Nicks post was just one big bold face quote so it wasnt the easiet thing to figure out what he was posting.

Jag

10-08-2001, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by LLT

I'm not familiar with all of the procedures, and I'm not sure who Carlos is, but it's my understanding that support issues travel through a hierarchy. The distributor, I believe, is the first point of contact, then I would assume if the issue can't be resolved, that *they* contact DarkOrb. I would equate this to the same thing as when you buy a PC from Compaq or HP. You can't call Microsoft for support (well you can, at a not-so-reasonable rate) - You contact whoever you bought the PC from for MS support.

Carlos is from Wizards hosting which is a distributor.

William

10-08-2001, 11:21 PM

All i have to say is i have a handful of people who complain, and 80% say they could not have grown as big with out "Cpanel" or "webpanel".

People scream all the time about windows and still use it, "and don`t anyone dare say there are no other choices" there are many choices.

If your savvy enough with running a server, Cpanel / Webpanel will make you very rich, "Bottom line" Nothing is perfect no matter what you do, some items are bugs some are things you need to improvise with.

If you don`t like it then don`t use it "simple" no need to sit here day in and day out say bad things about people.

Even to this day all the others products are still compared to cpanel / webpanel, and guess what; most of the people still choose it over all others. The handfull of people who don`t choose Cpanel or webpanel are lookign at price not features.

This products just needs to treated like a tool, like a hammer so to speak it can make a house or the same hammer can make a mess and break things, it is all based on who knows how to use this tool. learn about it and then use it.

just my 2 cents.. .

Webdude

10-08-2001, 11:32 PM

I believe posts can be found where Nick says to go thru your distributer, and then others where he says contact him directly, like now. I dont play these guessing games, it's either one or the other. You cant switch it around at your own conveinence based on what's being posted about your product.

They ICQ part you mentioned is also bull. I only message when you are online. Not only can you keep changing rules at your whim, you also can't just make up stories as you go along. You will usually get caught. We're not a bunch of idiots Nick.

If you spent more time on your product and less time in here digging yourself into a hole, you might just get it working right. And before you condemn me for saying that, take a look at the "Beware of Worldzone" thread which I can thank your product for. I dont waste my time defending myself or my company when I know the problem is there and it is real. I dont deny the problems, but I do blame them on your product. We had nowhere near these probs till we switched to your darkorb version. By being in here responding and accomplishing nothing, you have made this thread go much further than it otherwise would have, when you could have been working on the issues.

I'm also not knocking the program, but rather the lack of fixes for it and your support methods. You are very well aware of the problems. They have been posted on your forums, and they are all over these forums by various hosts. Instead of denying these issues are caused by cpanel, go fix it instead. I could have missed some, but I have yet to see you admit any of these problems. Rather, you deny they exist, or simply blame them on apache-linux-(insert blame here)-etc-etc

Webdude

10-08-2001, 11:36 PM

Tim Greer

10-08-2001, 11:41 PM

People jump to assumptions too much based on what people say in their defense to "save face".

Here are the facts and this is the situation;

#1: An individual asked if Cpanel hosts should be avoided. I said yes, I think they should, there's many problems.

#2: Nick asked me to elaborate on said problems and I did. I listed a few of many.

#3: That provided more of a foundation for my opinion and suggestion, and that was the point.

#4: I didn't come here, nor attempt to file any bug report or report any problems to Nick on this forum. He asked, I told him.

#5: I listed problems and said how things don't work or break and Nick asked ludicrous questions about how I should explain, in detail, every single thing I listed. That is not what I came here to do and it's irrelevant to the thread and is only relevant to him and his response with this attitude that I'm a "trouble maker" and so forth. As I said in my previous posts, and is evidenced by his responses. No need to say more about that.

#6: I have, in actuality, posted on the Cpanel forums and had responses directly from Nick (I didn't use my name there, because of his prejudiced reactions and attitude towards me, which is a side effect of my pointing out the problems and stating how I'm dissatisfied with the product). He finds insult at every comment, but I have nothing positive to say, so I'm not sure what can be expected. My negative comments are a product of the faults of this program to the point that I don't believe it would be moral to license this program. So, I didn't use my name there.

#7: Each time I posted there, he said (and demanding) I not bother him and that I contact the 'distributor', when he and the distributor knew good and well that the distributor was in no position to fix or do anything about the problem. Not to mention the fact, that the distributor has no more control or knowledge of said program than I could anyway, so they are of no help other than for licensing issues.

#8: In fact, I didn't email him personally after such encounters, but the distributor did send these bug reports and they were never fixed, even if they were acknowledged -- the problems still remain. Furthermore, many clients I worked for also reported bugs, as I instructed them to do and the same lack of a response or action to fix it.

#9: That said, I will not tolerate such insolent remarks and assumptions that I'm being condescending because I'm not going to play semantics and act like he knows something I don't and that I should just listen to these lame excuses and assumptions as to why there's problems. Everyone I have instructed to use the bug report tool, email or post on the Cpanel support forums have been met with these exact same responses and attitudes.

#10: In light of that fact, I didn't bother to report or go through the hassle of each and every bug/problem, etc.

#11: I'm not going to post publicly, how people can compromise these "features" to create errors or damage to a file system or someone's server.

#12: I'm not here to teach Nick how to do things. Even if I intended to, I can't do so since I don't have source code to work with.

#13: Again, this is in response to the original thread. I never came here to fix Nick's problems, it's his program. I also didn't just come here to complain -- but if I did, so what? I have a right and a REASON to. Nick wanted to get defensive and question my credentials and demand proof and reasons and errors of every single thing. I listed those are reasons why I was unhappy with the alleged quality of the program, not to discuss it, debate it or argue about it with the developer.

#14: Nick can say what he likes, and people are free to defend him.. but I don't see the reason. Yes, indeed, I only complain about Cpanel -- no kidding! There's nothing positive to say about it, other than the skin that Carlos created -- that's the only nice thing about it. Other than that, nothing works, it causes stress, delays, errors and problems on servers running it and I can't even comment, mention, suggest or advise, let alone get any intelligent or helpful response to any mention of any problems. Yes, indeed, I'm sick of it and I did not give him specific errors. These bugs/errors have been reported... look in WHT's archives and see all the people complaining about sub domain problems, bandwidth issues, stats not working, MySQL screwing up, security issues on shared servers due to how Cpanel is set up, and yes, things that I mentioned in my posts as well.

I'm not sure what I'm expected to do, but I'm not going to play these games, repeat all my steps, etc. of reporting these problems, since it never helps. Further, I'm not interested in Cpanel being quality, as I don't believe it will ever be and I fully believe (nay, I KNOW) NocSoft will result in the same poor quality -- and therefore, as I said previously, we don't intend to use it or want to use it -- we are very close to having our own control panel completed and done right. So, I'm sure it's not difficult to understand, that I answered a poster's question honestly. I then gave reasons and listed some of them. And I'm questioned and asked to prove things and file bug reports, etc. Why? I have no interest, no reason and I just answered a user to help them by giving them advice as I have a lot of experience with it.

So, whatever Nick wants to say, it's not at all relevant. This wasn't a thread about Cpanel problems and to list and detail them and file bug reports and the like, this was someone asking what people thought about Cpanel hosts and I answered that question. To start ranting about how I always complain about Cpanel, which is obvious and for good reason, is not relevant. I didn't post what I did to offend Nick or his skills, but how can you avoid risking that, given the poor quality of the program? I wish him and everyone else luck with it, but currently and for as long as I've seen, I would highly suggest people strongly consider staying away for the reasons I've listed. It's that simple and that was what my posts were about. Anything else is irrelevant, ridiculous, a waste of time riddled with assumptions about every possible thing and flat out suspect to me. However, I've clearly covered the aspects of all my responses and I have NO (NONE) interest in helping to get Cpanel fixed. Really, if anyone isn't clear on this or doesn't understand, just re-read this post. However, I think it's obvious that most everyone understands and likely agree. End of conversation.

AH-Tina

10-08-2001, 11:59 PM

CRego3D

10-09-2001, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by Webdude

Sorry, but if you are paying $100 per month for a product, you expect support. I have to admit though, that when we were at vdi we got better support for it than we do now with the darkorb version. You see Bill, we didnt really have all that many probs at vdi. It all went to hell in a handbasket went we went to the darkorb version. I dont know what differences there are between the too, but something caused a major screwup in the darkorb version..

Robert

With all due respect man, I told you this before 100 times, Cpanel DOES work, but you have to be carefull with it, we have lots and lots of machines with Cpanel that are running just fine, because we do not DARE to install any other software that is not included in the cpanel distro.

We have established in the past that allot of your problems are caused by suexec (ok, suexec is nice, but it's not nice when used with cpanel, it's a fact, and for now there is no way around it), second, you have at times too much going on, and too many people working in the machines at the same time, causes confusion of who did what, or why was this done ..

I am not saying that cpanel is perfect, we all know it's not, heck even I have my complaints, but left alone, we have not had that many problems, unfortunately there are systems than we need to add other software to it that (by experience) I know will break cpanel .. so the solution is to not use cpanel on those systems period.

I mean, why complain about a problem when you can just go around it ? .. if it doesn't work .. don't use it.

Tim Greer

10-09-2001, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by William
All i have to say is i have a handful of people who complain, and 80% say they could not have grown as big with out "Cpanel" or "webpanel".

People scream all the time about windows and still use it, "and don`t anyone dare say there are no other choices" there are many choices.

If your savvy enough with running a server, Cpanel / Webpanel will make you very rich, "Bottom line" Nothing is perfect no matter what you do, some items are bugs some are things you need to improvise with.

If you don`t like it then don`t use it "simple" no need to sit here day in and day out say bad things about people.

Even to this day all the others products are still compared to cpanel / webpanel, and guess what; most of the people still choose it over all others. The handfull of people who don`t choose Cpanel or webpanel are lookign at price not features.

This products just needs to treated like a tool, like a hammer so to speak it can make a house or the same hammer can make a mess and break things, it is all based on who knows how to use this tool. learn about it and then use it.

just my 2 cents.. .

I don't help yourself or VDI responsible for having used a program Nick created. However, let's be fair about this to everyone that's affected. This is not a matter of a choice or not. People see a product, they see features and price and it looks good or not. If they like what they see, they get it -- and only after do they find out that it has problems. The question is, how many problems? I mean, we're not talking about simple things here or a few minor thing. We are talking about to the point where clients leave and your system is basically ruined in a good number of aspects.

Why I say this; Cpanel won't install properly, unless it's a new, fresh system with no user's, etc. Cpanel is very specific about how a server has to be set up and this is a bad thing, because it doesn't allow you to secure it properly or configure it efficiently, as compared to how you could without it. It limits you and what you can do in that regard and that can have a large impact. Now, let's move on...

You can't just make a choice to stop using a product that installs on a fresh install and just stop using it. It takes over the system and uses files all over the place to use, store and process information.. completely needless files. You can't just remove Cpanel, once it's put on a system, it's there and you are stuck with it! You can't just say "well, if you don't like it, don't use it". You know this, let's be fair. You can't just not use it, because everything now works off of and relies on Cpanel and it's files it uses. How it sets things up.

Now, let's also be realistic about another thing you mentioned, for the sake of being fair here. The reason why people choose it, is because it looks like it has a lot of features and you expect them to work. Further, because it looks decent as far as the skin goes. It's no secret that if a car looks cute, fast, impressive or whatever, that people will buy it. That's what draws people to a product. Now, with that said, let's consider this. MOST people that use Cpanel, use it because they HAVE to.. there's your 80%. Those 80% of the people that say "they could not have grown as big with out "Cpanel" or "webpanel"." There's no secret why, it's because they don't know how to run a host without it. That's not a solution, they just think it is. God help them if they have problems Cpanel can't solve.

Also, it's not a good analogy to say something like "People scream all the time about windows and still use it," as that's a huge difference. Windows quality is a far cry better than Cpanel quality. If Windows had problems in the same league as Cpanel, Bill Gates would be homeless and probably get his ass kicked by nerds across the world. Besides, name me ONE Cpanel host that has gotten "rich" from using it. Name just one, that's legitimately "rich".

(continued below)

Tim Greer

10-09-2001, 12:20 AM

(continued from above)

This comment:

""Bottom line" Nothing is perfect no matter what you do, some items are bugs some are things you need to improvise with."

That's so unfair and wrong to say! This "nothing is perfect" is a cop out for a lot of people and it seems to have stuck and is some over-used buzz word. I'm not saying you are saying it as a cop out, but there's NO reason why things have to have bugs -- not one reason. People think this is all so complex, that "Well, everything's going to have bugs, so...". Well, that's not true. I promise you that a conditional statement will always work, I promise a command will always be passed the way you want, I promise you that a print function will always print. I promise that a BOLD tag in HTML will always display a BOLD tag. This sort of thing, isn't complex enough to assume that it's reasonable to always have bugs. Even so, fine, but not THIS many! I mean, you can't use that to defend someone's incompetence, you simply CAN'T!
Finally, to say people need to "improvise"? Tell you what, if Outlook express screwed up your Windows system every time you use it and you're stuck with that being your email program, I dare you to try and improvise! We're talking about the mentality of Cpanel and it's developer, to say a solution is to "reinstall it and see if that helps". Yeah, uh oh, the server load is too high, let's not find a solution and reason, let's just reboot it and clear out all those processes and be back at a reasonable load... Same mentality. I don't get at all, where you think saying people should improvise using a program that either works or it doesn't. Try and improvise with one stick of bad RAM sometime and be stuck with that RAM. Tell me, what can you do with it, when you need that RAM (it's your only RAM) to run the server. Can you improvise with that well, or are you going to say "nothing's perfect" and just deal with it crashing your server?

Understand something here, Bill, I have no problem or complaint about you. Also, I don't know about webpanel, and I'm specifically speaking of Cpanel and J. Nick Koston. I've attempted (as you can see by my last post before this that spelled it all out clearly), to simply state my opinion and my reaction was in direct response to Nick's. You saying that people don't need to sit here and say bad things about products or people, reflects as seeming to be a comment about me and what I said previously. If it is, just say so. If not, please be clear about what you did mean and to whom and in what regard. I can't have anything but bad things to say about someone that's treating me and my comments in the manner he has and Cpanel is a horrible program. I can't be blamed for being honest and honestly stating my view and opinion about his skills and the quality of his program -- especially in light of how I was treated.

This "treat it like a tool" scenario doesn't fit, AT ALL! Honestly now!!! I mean, to act like it's problems because someone doesn't use the tool properly?? This isn't some tool you can CONFIGURE -- it either works or it does not work! It is either good code or bad code! I'm not going to dare blame a server administrator for not using a tool properly, like traceroute, because someone used an exploit and rooted someone's server because the traceroute program was built poorly. I'm not going to blame a server admin if the company he got his RAM from, sent him some cheap, broken RAM and say he just didn't know how to use it. This is NOT something people can choose or select or configure for it to work a certain way and for you to say that, is really unfair. A hammer is a bad example, it's a simple tool. What you need to compare it to, is a car engine, and say someone just doesn't understand it, if they can't drive it properly -- all while completely forgetting that it doesn't run because the parts are not manufactured properly and the fuel and air vacuum lines leak.

At least a car, you can fix. Say the engine is stored in a big metal block and you can't access it and all these things go wrong with the engine and you can't do anything about it. Are you going to say that the person doesn't understand how to use the tool? I really don't know why you made these type of comments. This isn't relevant at all, and not good examples to what is being discussed. To act like people have no legitimate complaint and they just aren't using it right. Hmm, let's see:

Client (goes to site):

System: "Please press the button to proceed with your order"

{Client presses button and waits}

System: "Failure, system exploded, button failed to process order, something underlying is screwed up -- please contact the webmaster and tell him"

Client: "Dear webmaster, I tried to order a product and I did as specified and pressed the "Order" button and it erred each time, it said to contact you. Please advise! Thanks!"

Webmaster: "Dear client, Sorry for the problems. It's not anything we can be blamed for. You must not understand how to use the order form. Please press the button properly, if you want your order to go through."

Client: "uh, what? Is this a joke?"

Webmaster: "No joke, it's not us, you just must not understand how to press the button.. you see, it's ALL about how you press the button. You can either press the button, or you can PRESS the button. Please don't bother us about your lack of understanding of our system and blame us, because the button didn't work for you -- you should know better!"

Well, you get the point, I hope! I really don't see where you're going with this. Cpanel has problems, it's not a result of not using it properly. It's not an issue of configuration. It's not anything that the user or server admin has any control over. This doesn't change anything and I think you should look at it in perspective and be fair about the comments you make, or at least elaborate on how you're responding to and on what point. Thanks.

PS: My condolences about John, I hope things are well.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue about this with you and I'm not interested in arguing with anyone else either, really. Good luck.

CRego3D

10-09-2001, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by Tim_Greer
There's nothing positive to say about it, other than the skin that Carlos created -- that's the only nice thing about it.

Hey, it's about time somebody recognizes the good work :D
(everybody else seems to complain about it .. they should be given the old skin for a while)

Webdude

10-09-2001, 12:22 AM

I reread, and figured I needed to confront some of this.

If you don`t like it then don`t use it "simple" no need to sit here day in and day out say bad things about people.

The people who are complaining are already using it. It's not like it's just that easy to drop it, especially when you have tons of clients. Drop it, and you got a bunch of pissed off clients. What the hell...use it and you got a bunch of pissed of clients. We have lost close to 100 accounts over this cpanel crap.

Even to this day all the others products are still compared to cpanel / webpanel, and guess what; most of the people still choose it over all others. The handfull of people who don`t choose Cpanel or webpanel are lookign at price not features.

Uh, yeah, you are correct there. It's to show how much better the others are.

And Carlos......you know I refuse to operate a server without suexec. Any server running cpanel without suexec has HUUUGE security holes....ESPECIALLY running cpanel. SuEXEC is an Apache program. You see, Apache is there first as was suexec....far longer than cpanel has been. Apache/SuEXEC shouldnt have to be compatible with CPanel....I dare you to say that to Apache developers. However, CPanel should be made to be compatible with SuEXEC.

Geez, that's like me building a site that can only be viewed in IE, denying all probs, and saying Netscape needs to make themselves compatible with my site...it doesnt work like that. New developments need to be made compatible with what's already out there.

Well heck, I will shutup let Tim get back to his new best seller :D

Tim Greer

10-09-2001, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by CRego3D

Robert

With all due respect man, I told you this before 100 times, Cpanel DOES work, but you have to be carefull with it, we have lots and lots of machines with Cpanel that are running just fine, because we do not DARE to install any other software that is not included in the cpanel distro.

We have established in the past that allot of your problems are caused by suexec (ok, suexec is nice, but it's not nice when used with cpanel, it's a fact, and for now there is no way around it), second, you have at times too much going on, and too many people working in the machines at the same time, causes confusion of who did what, or why was this done ..

I am not saying that cpanel is perfect, we all know it's not, heck even I have my complaints, but left alone, we have not had that many problems, unfortunately there are systems than we need to add other software to it that (by experience) I know will break cpanel .. so the solution is to not use cpanel on those systems period.

I mean, why complain about a problem when you can just go around it ? .. if it doesn't work .. don't use it.

This is stupid that this has to turn into a battle. A battle based on dedication to the people you know or are in business with, defending them and the product. Not just you, but other's involved. I can sort of understand it. However, it still bother's me and I don't want to have any problems with you guy's, because I'm sick this this damn program. That said, I want to be very clear here... the problems that Worldzone experiences was long before they changed or installed anything (i.e., SuEXEC, etc.). Further, the problems I and every other server I've had with Cpanel, NONE of them had *anything* at all changed -- NOTHING... I just want to be clear, in light of your recent post, that that is clearly not the case, not even for WZ -- even if SuEXEC did cause problems for them at some point, I don't know. Anyway, I just wanted to be clear about that before people wrongly assume people just screwed with settings or whatever to have had the problems.

CRego3D

10-09-2001, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by Tim_Greer

You can't just make a choice to stop using a product that installs on a fresh install and just stop using it. It takes over the system and uses files all over the place to use, store and process information.. completely needless files. You can't just remove Cpanel, once it's put on a system, it's there and you are stuck with it! You can't just say "well, if you don't like it, don't use it". You know this, let's be fair. You can't just not use it, because everything now works off of and relies on Cpanel and it's files it uses. How it sets things up.

I have to disagree with you there, I believe the issue is that people beome "confortable" and don't wish to go thru the hassle of a move, some of them just moved from Alabanza to cpanel a few months ago, and don't wish to go thru another change (understandable) .. cpanel is very basic in where the files are stored, and if you really wish to move, it's actually easier than most people think.

Webdude

10-09-2001, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by CRego3D
cpanel is very basic in where the files are stored, and if you really wish to move, it's actually easier than most people think.

Yeah, sure, uh huh, riiiight. You are in dreamland if you think that Carlos, which means you gotta be on something right now. So just go ahead and send me some of that and I "might" start to believe it too :D

We've been thru a move, I know waaaay better than that. When we moved from cpanel3 to cpanel3 disguised as cpanel4, everything went to hell. But your right, and we are moving on. There are better control panels out there.

Personally I think cpanel may die out. You got tons of people now requesting hosts that DONT use cpanel. Now if you were about to start a host and you saw that, would YOU offer cpanel? Another thing is that it is simply rediculous to say that my machines start crashing and all kinds of things go haywire just because suexec was installed. Anyone who knows anything about suexec and how it works, and knows how cpanel is "claimed" to work, would know that is a rediculous claim. Tim could probably explain it better, so I wont get into it. It's just the fact that for the most part suexec controls some of what a virtual user can and cannot do...not the server, or root, or any program that operates as root like cpanel does.

Tim Greer

10-09-2001, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by CRego3D

I have to disagree with you there, I believe the issue is that people beome "confortable" and don't wish to go thru the hassle of a move, some of them just moved from Alabanza to cpanel a few months ago, and don't wish to go thru another change (understandable) .. cpanel is very basic in where the files are stored, and if you really wish to move, it's actually easier than most people think.

Well, please send me that information then. Also, from what I've seen, there does appear to be some pretty specific files and programs for Cpanel servers. Further, cpanel using these cheap programs and things like Exim too, makes it more difficult in other aspects, because of the software and versions of software it uses. I don't think I covered all of the reasons how Cpanel just installs all the programs, pre configured a certain way, making it impossible to add any options or modules for things people want or NEED in things like PHP, Apache, etc.

Finally, I have to agree with Webdude, that while SuEXEC might cause problems on Cpanel servers, it just further illustrates a bad design, if it can't use or handle such a common option in the most popular web server software, running on the most popular OS for a web server. It should be designed better, but that's just one of a great number of reasons why I say what I do.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you, and I know we aren't. We're pals and stuff. :-) Seriously, I don't want to argue about this. I am 100% certain Cpanel is completely shoddy and a very poor program and there's just too many reasons to list. I don't want to see a lot of people I know all getting pissed off at each other about this for whatever reasons. I know people have to protect their interests and I'm not going to expect or ask anyone involved to speak badly about a product they support, offer or license or are otherwise involved (not saying they could ot would or have any reason to or not either though).

That's to say, I think Cpanel has caused enough damage and there's no reason for it to create animosity between myself and you, or Bill and I, or Bill and Webdude, or yourself and webdude, or anyone else (and I assume all of you would prefer that to not happen either). That said, I'll just leave my comments up from above and I'm not going to respond to this thread again... that's how much Cpanel upsets me and I probably already have an ulcer from all the problems it's given. Good luck everyone, my contribution to this thread ends here and now. Cheers!

CRego3D

10-09-2001, 01:02 AM

Originally posted by Webdude
Yeah, sure, uh huh, riiiight. You are in dreamland if you think that Carlos, which means you gotta be on something right now. So just go ahead and send me some of that and I "might" start to believe it too :D

Excuse me ?

You know me better than that, and I dont' open my mouth unless it's true, I'll give you a list of the files and instructions if you like, heck as we speak psoft is moving one my my customers, they didn't found any problems, yes, there are issues like the lack of billign means the new accounts in the new system will have 0 balance to start with and no customer info (the customer will have to update it) .. but other than then . no other issues with that particular move.

Kylecool

10-09-2001, 01:05 AM

Geez Tim, are you wriging a mini-novel? I can see your frustration, and I'm not telling you to not complain, however, if you hate it so bad, I have a solution for you:

Get another server, move clients individually from Cpanel to another server, and then transfer the DNS once it has been transfered successfully, and there is no downtime. You could cancel Cpanel in a month. If you are making your own Control Panel, good for you! :-D

I, personally like Cpanel. I admit it does have some bugs, but nothing minor I have to complain about. I like it a lot, and I don't feel like arguring about this, especially since I have to go and study in a couple of minutes.

Tim, Relax, and let it go. You are going to write a Novel soon, Relax.

Close your eyes. Breathe in, Breathe Out. WWHHHOOOOOOO. Relax. Listen to some nice , smooth, relaxing music. Relax, and let all of your troubles and anger go away. Put it in a bubble, and let it fly away. Leave Cpanel if you want, but I like it, and I am sorry you have had all these problems. I really am, so start changing. Once something is over it's over.

A lot of people like Cpanel out there, and also WebPanel by Vdi. I do say that they both have their up's and downs, and I like the DarkOrb Version better, but change back over to vdi if you want. Anything, just relax. What's done is done, and Move On!! :)

I wish you the best of luck in your hosting business, and I wish that you would stop writing such long things, because I have to read them, and I can't stop and study, LOL! :) Good luck in your everyday hosting career, and switch cp's if you want. :)

I'ms :o (Tired) Now, So I'll ttyl. :)

-Kyle

Webdude

10-09-2001, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by CRego3D
psoft is moving one of my customers, they didn't find any problems

Really? They will do that?

CRego3D

10-09-2001, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by Tim_Greer
Well, please send me that information then. Also, from what I've seen, there does appear to be some pretty specific files and programs for Cpanel servers.

err, the only specific files are /var/cpanel, and those are so easy to decifer, that just lookign at the files you knwo what they are, fi you have the previledge of having a backend programmer, you most likely can automate most of the move

Originally posted by Tim_Greer

Further, cpanel using these cheap programs and things like Exim too, makes it more difficult in other aspects, because of the software and versions of software it uses. I don't think I covered all of the reasons how Cpanel just installs all the programs, pre configured a certain way, making it impossible to add any options or modules for things people want or NEED in things like PHP, Apache, etc.

no disagreement there :)

Originally posted by Tim_Greer

Finally, I have to agree with Webdude, that while SuEXEC might cause problems on Cpanel servers, it just further illustrates a bad design, if it can't use or handle such a common option in the most popular web server software, running on the most popular OS for a web server. It should be designed better, but that's just one of a great number of reasons why I say what I do.

Well, that is a valid point, and I do like suexec myself, but the reality is, doesn't work, period

Originally posted by Tim_Greer

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you, and I know we aren't. We're pals and stuff. :-)

I TOLD you never to say that in public .. now my good reputation is down the drain .. ho wait .. I never had one .. ok, proceed :D

Originally posted by Tim_Greer

That's to say, I think Cpanel has caused enough damage and there's no reason for it to create animosity between myself and you, or Bill and I, or Bill and Webdude, or yourself and webdude, or anyone else (and I assume all of you would prefer that to not happen either). That said, I'll just leave my comments up from above and I'm not going to respond to this thread again... that's how much Cpanel upsets me and I probably already have an ulcer from all the problems it's given. Good luck everyone, my contribution to this thread ends here and now. Cheers!

I don't intend to create a war here either, and we are all good friends .. for quite a long time now

I think Cpanel has a market, like many other control panels, some people seem to love to hate it, others just have no valid reasons for their comments (not talking about you or Robert .. but some people in this thread don't) , neither the less, we looked over all our choices and decided to move the shared customer base to a different platform, and the dedicated still on cpanel.

the truth beeing . for the price/features .. it's still a great choice for a d-server.

LLT

10-09-2001, 01:18 AM

Tim, with all due respect, *PLEASE* keep the size of your posts down. It's very frustrating, and 50% of it is repetitive in nature.

On to the point. It doesn't seem like you have even *considered* the notion that the problems with Cpanel perhaps weren't problems with Cpanel at all, but with your configuration instead? I know of several hosts that have integrated forums, third-party billing scripts, etc. etc. into cpanel, all without problems. I think it's unfair to blame every issue on Cpanel, and state "I have nothing positive to say."

I'm a firm believer in the theory that "the customer is always right" and I practice nothing less, myself--however, just from reading your post, I dare say that you may have not been the customer that everyone dreams of. It strikes me as very odd that you felt the need to disguise yourself on support forums because you thought the developers were "prejudiced" against you. You clearly have a deep hatred for Nick and Cpanel in general, which is evident from your condescending comments (and yes, Tim, they are condescending) - If I'm not mistaken, you no longer use Cpanel, so what's the problem? Going back to my voting analogy, you're no longer voting - so I don't think it's fair that you get on here and attack every single aspect of a product you aren't even using.

My .02

Kylecool

10-09-2001, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by LLT
Tim, with all due respect, *PLEASE* keep the size of your posts down. It's very frustrating, and 50% of it is repetitive in nature.

On to the point. It doesn't seem like you have even *considered* the notion that the problems with Cpanel perhaps weren't problems with Cpanel at all, but with your configuration instead? I know of several hosts that have integrated forums, third-party billing scripts, etc. etc. into cpanel, all without problems. I think it's unfair to blame every issue on Cpanel, and state "I have nothing positive to say."

I'm a firm believer in the theory that "the customer is always right" and I practice nothing less, myself--however, just from reading your post, I dare say that you may have not been the customer that everyone dreams of. It strikes me as very odd that you felt the need to disguise yourself on support forums because you thought the developers were "prejudiced" against you. You clearly have a deep hatred for Nick and Cpanel in general, which is evident from your condescending comments (and yes, Tim, they are condescending) - If I'm not mistaken, you no longer use Cpanel, so what's the problem? Going back to my voting analogy, you're no longer voting - so I don't think it's fair that you get on here and attack every single aspect of a product you aren't even using.

My .02

I have to agree with this statement by Lindy (LLT) 100%

-Kyle

safu

10-09-2001, 01:21 AM

Since no one is listening to me the safu, the original thread starter,and my request for a summary, here is the dummies summary of this 6 pages originally and fully made by me:

I am not going to use cpanel or a host with cpanel
My advice to you : you dont too

The only thing I miss about not using cpanel is
creating /deleting MySQLs without requesting helpdesk
the ease of adding subdomains
All other stuff can be done as well without cpanel
In conclusion I do not want cpanel

tO aLL tHE lIKE mINDED :

lets call this "out of control" panel as it cannot control

simple stuffs like suseexec ( ref - webdude)
no proper bandwidth<---> billing stats ( ref - many )
full of problems ( ref : Tim,Tina, many + ref :also others who shifted to Hshpere,Ensim,Plesk etc from cpanel)
no log out button + sloppy,slow file management ( ref - me the safu)

To repeat
In conclusion I do not want cpanel

plus the fact : with it I cannot control simple motions like flying of a cow :D [ see below]

__________________________________________________________________

Missing the hottest poll ? Visit getwebpoll at
http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=22921
The best control panel ( moo version )
at http://flingthecow.com/flash

Kylecool

10-09-2001, 01:28 AM

Great, We finally have a conclusion, I don't agree with it, but whatever.

We are all entitiled to our own opinions , and I can see we have all expressed them here. I can see you don't like it, but please do let us keep WHT as an enjoyable moment and place to cope with others, to communicated 1 on 1 with our customers and fellow hosting companies. We are all connected in being in the same profession, and I just don't think you need to post 50 x's with your posts almost excedding the alloted 10,000 character limit.

In conclusion,
in the end, we will all make our own plans on if we like it or not. Based on the opinions, and some facts, we can decide if we will use it or not. Not withstanding or foregoing, I am gettin' kinda ticket off because of all the arguing, and in the end, at least me, I DONT LISTEN TO WHAT OTHERS SAY. IF I LIKE IT, I LIKE IT, AND I WON'T CHANGE YOUR MIND. I personally wish that you have success in your venture to drift elsewhere, and I hope you do well with your other cp's. :)

Best Regards and Sincerely,
Kyle R. Reilly

safu

10-09-2001, 01:39 AM

I guess Kylecool did not say anything to me and in any case I agree with him ;) and whatever he says

Just for the records :
"I personally wish that you have success in your venture to drift elsewhere, and I hope you do well with your other cp's." - though it may not be for me I am sort of poking in to say :

I am just a client and not a webhost and I can assure
I am doing well without any sort of cpanel ( affordablehost and tera-byte) and enjoying the full control over matters I like. Many of my friends are having fun and peace like me too :)

To repeat
In conclusion I do not want cpanel

For controlling the cow I use another stuff but thats another story :D

__________________________________________________________________

Missing the hottest poll ? Visit getwebpoll at
http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=22921
The best control panel ( moo version )
at http://flingthecow.com/flash

Tim Greer

10-09-2001, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by LLT
Tim, with all due respect,

To get respect, show some. Obviously your comments are completely biased, so this entire opposition of yours, is pointless.

*PLEASE* keep the size of your posts down.

Are you that slow of a reader? To try and say my posts were too big to make a point, is foolish. Yes, you're Nick's pal, you like Cpanel, but that doesn't make me wrong.

It's very frustrating, and 50% of it is repetitive in nature.

I find you and people that don't consider anything other than themselves and what they just happen top be thinking that very moment, to be frustrating, so we're even, okay? I repeat things, to clearly point them out -- that's the point of reiterating for the sake of being clear and solid with my comments.

On to the point.

You don't have a point, other than to attempt to disparage myself and my comments, all based on the fact that you don't like me, because you are too caught up in defending your pal, to bother to debate the issues contained in my posts, so you say this nonsense, and you don't care at all what I was saying or why I said it. That's fine, the people that matter, do read.

It doesn't seem like you have even *considered* the notion that the problems with Cpanel perhaps weren't problems with Cpanel at all, but with your configuration instead?

And it's blatantly obvious you didn't read what I have been posting. I clearly stated that wasn't the case and why. Not to mention, that many of these issues couldn't possibly be caused by or be a result of configurations issues that would somehow conflict -- but that's not the case and you'd know this if you bothered to read what I said, rather than taking parts of out context because it's "too big for you to read".

I know of several hosts that have integrated forums, third-party billing scripts, etc. etc. into cpanel, all without problems. I think it's unfair to blame every issue on Cpanel, and state "I have nothing positive to say."

Irrelevant and suspect comments. Surely you can't honestly be so confused, can you? I only blame issues on Cpanel that are Cpanel RELATED. What's 'unfair' here, is for you to attack me, because you're obviously biased and want to defend a product you obviously know nothing about. If you knew about the technical aspects of this, or if you read what I said, you'd have not made such a foolish comment as above. That simply does not apply to me and your efforts to discredit my comments and knowledge have failed. Only unknowledgeable people that didn't bother to pay attention, would agree with this premise.

I'm a firm believer in the theory that "the customer is always right" and I practice nothing less,

How is this relevant at all? Further, I don't believe this is sincere, since you either lack the understanding or just flat out refuse to accept anything of the massive amount of things I stated. Of course, you're not talking about you, you're using this to try and make me look bad, so I'll not go on responding to this right now.

myself--however,

yes, I know... no need to say, this is the standard response with the content you provide. You're better than I am, have a better customer relations view than I do, I'm just a trouble maker for voicing my opinion, I offend you for just existing. Yeah, yeah... Let's just dismiss the facts and the real issues and we'll just all go with that sort of thinking.. it's much easier than involving thought and insight into your thoughts and comments, after all.

just from reading your post, I dare say that you may have not been the customer that everyone dreams of.

Right. It's horrible to have a customer that expects a product to work and not ruin people's business when it ceases to function to such a degree that that is the result. Poor you, having to read that stuff I said. It must be difficult, and I apologize I don't kiss up to people and because I put thought into things I say and do and have _reason_ for it. I'm a bad person for giving my honest, knowledgeable and professional opinion about a product and to have listed problems and even said that I was unhappy for no support or fixes while dealing with said product. How dare I say anything bad about a bad product. WHO DO I THINK I AM? You may as well conjure up some answers for me, since you seem to think you're in a better suited position to tell me and everyone else what kind of person I am. Where do I get off anyway? I must be mad!!!

It strikes me as very odd that you felt the need to disguise yourself on support forums because you thought the developers were "prejudiced" against you.

Ironic you make that comment, in light of the fact that you're committing that very act I was saying I did it for, to avoid, just to get to the problem and get it resolved. In case you don't see the IRONIC nature of this, skippy, I'll point it out to you -- I posted my opinion. I was asked to list problems. I did that, and it wasn't enough. Then, you comment as I did something wrong because of that, not caring or knowing about what I said and why to see the justification. Of course, not I'm just "repeating myself" and that'll be too much for you to grasp, I guess, by your own admittance and I can't possibly reiterate to point out the obvious -- just because you fail to grasp it the first time.

Yes, INDEED, prejudice (and the exact motive for you to be responding, as evidenced by your very response!). In case you still fail to understand what's going on here, I had only listed problems and I'm attacked saying I always just complain, never even tell him about the problems and on and on. He can't very well make that claim to some assumed poster on the forums that's just flat out and clearly trying to get the bugs fixed. Are you following me yet? Probably not. You want to be harsh about this, I'm going to point these facts out. Simply, you're not making any sense.

You clearly have a deep hatred for Nick and Cpanel in general,

And you clearly have a deep hatred for me to be saying this. What's YOUR reason? Why is YOUR reason justified somehow better than mine? I never said I hated Nick, I don't like how he treats myself and other clients, I don't like his arrogant, condescending attitude and if I respond sarcastically in response to him doing that by returning the favor.. well, the thick headed one's will just get the wrong impression... but, we'll not name any names.. I'm just spelling it out clearly, so you can perhaps FINALLY understand. However, I will not hold my breath.

which is evident from your condescending comments (and yes, Tim, they are condescending)

Right, exactly.. just like his, and just like your own. So, I guess you have some exclusive right to being able to do that, even when it never involved you, because he's your pal. Well, that's super intelligent. Thanks, it's very helpful...

- If I'm not mistaken, you no longer use Cpanel,

If you read, I never said we don't. We are *stuck with it* until our control panel is completed. I think you're making a lot of mistakes and making remarks anyway, and even out of ignorance, you seem confident that's okay to do, as long as you're making your best attempt to trash me in the process. Don't worry, I'm still impressed.

so what's the problem?

Hmmm, where should I start? How about reading what I said in my posts. That would be a wise place to start. Although, I think "you" might fit in there quite effectively in addition.

Going back to my voting analogy, you're no longer voting - so I don't think it's fair that you get on here and attack every single aspect of a product you aren't even using.

I'm not playing your analogy game, but have fun. I'm having a serious discussion here and these uninformed, unprovoked attacked based on your gross neglect to the issues, is not helping anything. I was done responding and your post compelled me to respond again. Finally, in regards to my right. I have every right to let my feelings and opinions and experience be known if it'll help someone that asked the QUESTION about it. Furthermore, I'm not bound by your own personal thoughts about how I should post and about what. Not everything in the world is happy, ignorant bliss, and you'll realize that one day and you'll find a real reason to respond to someone's post and actually make a valid point. Of course, since you simply dismissed and ignored or can't grasp the situation and the issues, you assume too much and look foolish. Of course, it's also no secret that my response will just make you say "See, this is exactly what I mean, you just proved my point" sort of attitude. Sort of like saying "This guy's violent, always looking for a fight.. watch.. *you walk up to the person and start punching them in the head*..." they defend themselves or fight back and you say "See, I told you".

My .02 [/B][/QUOTE]

That's the cheapest exchange rate I've ever seen in my life! My goodness, where did you COME from? This can't get any more ridiculous, you must be new... :-)

Jag

10-09-2001, 02:09 AM

Originally posted by LLT
- If I'm not mistaken, you no longer use Cpanel, so what's the problem? Going back to my voting analogy, you're no longer voting - so I don't think it's fair that you get on here and attack every single aspect of a product you aren't even using.

My .02

Since he has used it before he is entitled to voice his experience with it just like you can. Its not like he is just going from word of mouth or making it up.

Safu, goodluck with your site. I guess this thread can finally get some rest :) .

Tim Greer

10-09-2001, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by Kylecool

The fact that you so freely agreed with LLT after this post, says a lot and shows you're being just as unreasonable and irrational as s/he is. There's no need for this sort of nonsense, you know. If you don't like what I have to say, fine. It might not be a good or valid reason for YOU, but I'm NOT you, nor is anyone else. Some people it probably helped, or maybe not. Why you think you have the right to discern or flat out judge what is too much or appropriate or not, is ridiculous and madness, plain and simple.

Look, I type fast, I type a lot. I'm a proactive person, I have a lot to say and I'll say it if I feel compelled to. There's no reason to act like someone's gone mad, or has no right, because you have trouble dealing with it or the length of the content. It's surely not that big of a deal, is it? I enjoy conversations, debating and communication, maybe you have issues or whatever with some aspects of it -- but you're free to think for yourself, consider what people are saying and the reasons for it. If you want to just rant on and on about how you feel about how I feel about things, then I suggest you re-read this very sentence I'm typing right now, until it makes better sense to you, because I doubt many other's will see the sense in it. That said...

Geez Tim, are you wriging a mini-novel? I can see your frustration, and I'm not telling you to not complain, however, if you hate it so bad, I have a solution for you:

I believe you are indeed telling me not to complain and you are further making the mistake of going as far as to assume my emotional state of mind as well. If a subject interests you or affects you or you wish to comment about it in some detail and are active in the discussion, I'm not going to be foolish enough to assume you're lost your head and need to take some medication and to try and play things down and mock people because you can't be serious or aren't ethical enough to consider all the aspects and ramifications, than so be it -- but don't start guessing and assuming irrelevant and ridiculous things. Your issues are yours, not mine. I'm not motivated in the same regard as yourself and LLT appear to be, but these petty attacks are a bit moot and I don't see your point. All you have to do, is pay attention, or otherwise just ignore it.

Get another server, move clients individually from Cpanel to another server, and then transfer the DNS once it has been transfered successfully, and there is no downtime. You could cancel Cpanel in a month. If you are making your own Control Panel, good for you! :-D

If that was my choice, sure. Then again, easier said than done. Then again, I'd not have ever used it in the first place. And, hey, the client's won't notice or care about no more control panel for them, I'm sure. Great plan, well thought out, I should just flip and switch and shut up, because that's how easy a decision is. I'll tell my employer that we shouldn't wait for our control panel to be released and to just go ahead and spend $4,000+ each for a bunch of new servers, so we can move all the Cpanel user's to it and not wait to code a converter program/script. Good idea, why didn't I think of that? Oh, right, I've just been writing a pointless novel and I'll never be that smart.

I, personally like Cpanel. I admit it does have some bugs, but nothing minor I have to complain about. I like it a lot, and I don't feel like arguring about this, especially since I have to go and study in a couple of minutes.

If you don't want to argue, then how about this? --> DON'T!... it works for me. Of course, usually I don't go and insult people with off the wall assumptions and not expect them to respond either. I'm glad for you and anyone else that's not having problems, really. Tell me though, how does that change the fact that other's aren't so happy and why they aren't allowed to state their reasons why and how? How does that affect you so much again, exactly? You know, you have the power to not read my posts or just not even read the thread. I can explain how, but I don't want to have you think I'm lightheaded and passing out from anxiety about all of it.

Tim, Relax, and let it go. You are going to write a Novel soon, Relax.

Just because I post about something and respond to posts directed to and about me, in no way indicates I am needing to relax. Since when is ignoring things or refusing to respond, considering relaxing? I wan to respond and I will, why is there a need to explain how that works -- or were you just dying for a chance to be a clown and try and act funny by saying this nonsense? Speaking of...

[SNIP rest of nonsense...]

-Kyle [/B][/QUOTE]

Good luck, indeed. I'm proud of some of you here today... :-)

Tim Greer

10-09-2001, 02:34 AM

This nonsense ends here and now. It's ironic that people not involved assume and attack people with inaccurate and ridiculous assumptions and biased based responses. Be it someone agrees or not with what I said and my opinions, claims and experiences -- it's not their place to question it, say what right I do or do not have in regard to it. It's frankly none of their business either. That sort of thing is a display of a gross lack of courtesy, respect and intellect on a very low level.

I had a right to answer the user's question and say what I did and respond to people asking me and saying things of me. To just not like me and attack me because I'm not nice about a product that hasn't been nice to use, or the developer not nice to myself or anyone else I know, does not justify such actions. This is crazy and the people that have been around the Net for more than 4 or 6 months, has seem this same lame cop out rehashed across the Internet for many years and it's nothing new to us. It's nothing new to run into people like that, but to clutter the forums with nonsense that's irrelevant to the thread, the topic or any of the comment, other than to post opinions about someone and their intentions because you don't care or bother to understand or read what's going on, or possible have some 'disorder', is really out of line.

I said I was done with this and the trolls try and drag me back into it with these type of nonsensical posts. Well, if anyone doesn't get it, re-read the threads, the points made and the like and if you still have trouble, then I pity you and you're free to believe what you like, because all in all, your opinion means nothing. I was clear, I reiterated, I explained and I outlined not only the problems and the opinions I have of them and other aspects, but I stated many of the reasons for them. It doesn't take a genius to follow this thread and get it, and I've said all I can. Post all the petty nonsense you like, avoid the facts and issues and live in "bliss". Good luck, I am far gone from this by now! People with a decent head on their shoulders already know and agree and those are the opinions that matter anyway. So, to the two to three posting this nonsense.. well, there's just no winning and I'm not going to debate issues with a brink wall either. So, have it at if this is what you need so much. Cheers!

safu

10-09-2001, 02:55 AM

I agree with Tim.
Tim, Tina, Webdude and host of others cannot be wrong.

My answer will be a NO to a cpanel host.

Those needing a summary just read the above line or see my SUMMARY OF 6 PAGES a few threads back.

If you dont need the summary even but straightway want to have the best control panel ( moo version)(excuse repetitions) see below - dont complain me afterwards that
(i) I did not warn you how bad cpanel is
(ii) I did not inform you about the best control panel ( ver. moo)

thankxxx guys and gals. :)

___________________________________________________
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FrankieG

10-09-2001, 03:00 AM

Originally posted by LLT
Tim, with all due respect, *PLEASE* keep the size of your posts down. It's very frustrating, and 50% of it is repetitive in nature.

Tim, keep up the extended informative posts. I do not get frustrated reading more than three sentences in a row.

More power to you Tim

Tim Greer

10-09-2001, 03:05 AM

Hey, thanks for you, really. Not because you agree with what I said or are heeding my advice -- because I never denied that it's my own view on it (I certainly don't speak for everyone) and some hosts are saying they don't personally have problems, which is great for them, really it is -- but just for being patient, attentive and considering all the aspects of it. I apologize to yourself and all the other viewers though, for this getting so far off topic and turning into some drawn-out discussion covering what only a really bored social studies student would write an essay on. BTW, can you tell I like to write? :-)

My goodness, I'm never going to click on this thread's link again... *LOL* Again, sorry for the mess, I hope it didn't bug too many people.. this is obviously a sensitive issue to discuss -- just thank GOD it wasn't about religion (oh no, pun alert!) :-)

Webdude

10-09-2001, 03:22 AM

LOL! This has been great, but my eyes are exhausted and burning now. I'm sure I will have plenty of catching up to do when I next come here :D

Oh by the way...shortly after I got into all this today, my cpanel server started crashing a lot...at least 3 times per hours. It's interesting to note that I shut down the cpanel programs, and the server operates just fine. Would anyone care to explain why this is?

I will give you this much info. Somehow cpanel or one of it's actions or services thereof is causing a kernal panic. I just want to know how and why.. It cant be blamed on anything but cpanel since it never happens except when cpanel is running.

LLT

10-09-2001, 03:57 AM

Originally posted by Tim_Greer
[QUOTE]

First, I apologize if I have mistated some facts. My comment regarding you not using Cpanel was based on an earlier (MUCH shorter) post from Tina:

[quote]
This is NOT a support issue with Tim, as he doesn't use Cpanel (as far as I understand the situation) - so he is under no obligation to fill out any sort of a trouble ticket.

Perhaps if your posts were more to the point, the facts would be more easily attainable. They have a character limit in place for a reason. :)

I'm not going to waste much time rebutting your comments, but I do want to clear a few things up.

1.) Obviously, because I don't agree with your viewpoints that I am biased and best friends with Nick??? I said Nick was helping me, and I've found him helpful and generous. I thought it was important to note that, since you were painting him and Cpanel in a negative light. Apparently, opposing opinions aren't welcome in your "world."

2.) And it's blatantly obvious you didn't read what I have been posting. I clearly stated that wasn't the case and why. Not to mention, that many of these issues couldn't possibly be caused by or be a result of configurations issues that would somehow conflict -- but that's not the case and you'd know this if you bothered to read what I said, rather than taking parts of out context because it's "too big for you to read".

I read your post, and most of it was either a.) lacking detail -or- b.) a personal attack against Nick, not even remotely related to Cpanel, that served no purpose other than to make you feel better. Either way, aside from a few of those issues, you have, in my opinion, not established in any way that ALL of the problems you are experiencing are bugs, and not related to your setup. Maybe it's just easier to blame Cpanel? It's like taking your car to the mechanic to get a brake job, then blaming him a week later when your car overheats, but come to find out, you didn't keep the coolant full.

At any rate, I certainly understand you have issues, and don't doubt them for a minute, but it is possible that at least *some* of them are not cpanel related.

Just as you don't like working 16hr shifts (who does?), nobody likes angry customers (who apparently don't follow proper procedures to report their problems) attacking and insulting them. That certainly won't get your problems resolved any quicker or more efficiently. Remember, vinegar vs honey

I've lurked for a while, and I realize you are highly respected on these forums by a number of users, and you bring a lot of insight to the "community" but I think you're entirely out of line on this thread. It's just my opinion, and you may take it at face value, just as I have yours. You may not be right, I may not be right, so let's just agree to disagree.

LLT

10-09-2001, 04:03 AM

Originally posted by Webdude
LOL! This has been great, but my eyes are exhausted and burning now. I'm sure I will have plenty of catching up to do when I next come here :D

Oh by the way...shortly after I got into all this today, my cpanel server started crashing a lot...at least 3 times per hours. It's interesting to note that I shut down the cpanel programs, and the server operates just fine. Would anyone care to explain why this is?

I will give you this much info. Somehow cpanel or one of it's actions or services thereof is causing a kernal panic. I just want to know how and why.. It cant be blamed on anything but cpanel since it never happens except when cpanel is running.

lol I probably just cut 10yrs off my life with this thread, and here I thought cigarettes were going to do me in. ;)

Regarding your cpanel crashes, that sounds like a legitimate claim. Contacted your distributor?

Get some rest, as I shortly will. :)

LLT

10-09-2001, 04:06 AM

Originally posted by safu
I agree with Tim.
Tim, Tina, Webdude and host of others cannot be wrong.

My answer will be a NO to a cpanel host.

Those needing a summary just read the above line or see my SUMMARY OF 6 PAGES a few threads back.

If you dont need the summary even but straightway want to have the best control panel ( moo version)(excuse repetitions) see below - dont complain me afterwards that
(i) I did not warn you how bad cpanel is
(ii) I did not inform you about the best control panel ( ver. moo)

thankxxx guys and gals. :)

Safu, I'd like to apologize to you for my part in taking this thread so far off topic. I'm sure you just wanted a few simple opinions, and I'm sorry you got this instead. :)

Good luck to you.

Webdude

10-09-2001, 04:51 AM

LLT,
I know you sincerely believe what you type. However, you lack the experience with CPanel to know any better. A mere 15 days ago you were asking where to get CPanel..as shown below..

http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=21928

Originally posted by LLT
Hi,

Does anyone know where you can get Cpanel/WHM for a reasonable fee? The server isn't going to be located in one of the distributor's (burst, site5, etc.) datacenters, so I'm having a hard time finding it for less than $90/month (which is unreasonable)

I really like the look and featureset of cpanel, but I hope they revise their pricing and methods of distributing, because not everyone wants to pay $5-6/GB in VDI or Burst.net's datacenters, and if you don't colocate there, the cost for Cpanel is double--It doesn't make sense to me. :eek:

Any help would be really appreciated. :)

Thanks!

bdraco

10-09-2001, 05:36 AM

Originally posted by LLT

I'm not familiar with all of the procedures, and I'm not sure who Carlos is, but it's my understanding that support issues travel through a hierarchy. The distributor, I believe, is the first point of contact, then I would assume if the issue can't be resolved, that *they* contact DarkOrb. I would equate this to the same thing as when you buy a PC from Compaq or HP. You can't call Microsoft for support (well you can, at a not-so-reasonable rate) - You contact whoever you bought the PC from for MS support.

Thats the general idea ..

Webdude: If you would rather argue all day instead of sending me and email to get your problem resolved, then thats fine with me. I'm done posting to this thread since its obviously just turning into a flame war and no benifiting anyone.

bdraco

10-09-2001, 06:00 AM

Originally posted by Webdude
LOL! This has been great, but my eyes are exhausted and burning now. I'm sure I will have plenty of catching up to do when I next come here :D

Oh by the way...shortly after I got into all this today, my cpanel server started crashing a lot...at least 3 times per hours. It's interesting to note that I shut down the cpanel programs, and the server operates just fine. Would anyone care to explain why this is?

I will give you this much info. Somehow cpanel or one of it's actions or services thereof is causing a kernal panic. I just want to know how and why.. It cant be blamed on anything but cpanel since it never happens except when cpanel is running.

FYI, a kernel panic is caused by a bug in the kernel (excpect for a a config error like telling lilo the wrong drive is your root drive). If you don't believe a word I say; I suggest you post to the linux-kernel mailing list to verify this.

safu

10-09-2001, 06:46 AM

Hi bdraco,

I started this thread and I now find a lot of good discussion. All of you are experts - I dont find any flaming but a good hot discussion.
ITS OK ! I posted this before in this thread also but since you are here once again I ask once again as a humble client ( not as a webhost):

Does cpanel shows for both the host and the client the real bandwidth that is to be billed ?

Compared to any standard FTP ,file transfer and management thru cpanel , the main purpose of webhosting, is crude,slow and cumbersome.Why ?

Does cpanel genarate billings automatically for customers ?

Why there is no log out button ?

You are serious that persons like Tim,Webdude ,Tina,HostExp and lot more are all wrong ? Those who have shifted to Hsphere,Plesk,Ensim etc are all wrong when they say those are better than cpanel?

and

Can you make it open source to those who buy it ?
In fact when it uses open source stuff like perl or C or whatever, why it should not be open source

Since I am not much knowledgable I will like to apologise if any of the questions are childish.Thanxxx.

PS : my thanks to those who took a little time off to fling the cow and made the getweb poll a success ( see below)
PSPS : flingthecow is not my site - I am just a visitor there.
__________________________________________________________________

Missing the hottest poll ? Visit getwebpoll at
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Alan - Vox

10-09-2001, 08:01 AM

Doesnt reading this thread just make you want to start an open source control panel? well it does for me :)

bdraco

10-09-2001, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by safu
Hi bdraco,

I started this thread and I now find a lot of good discussion. All of you are experts - I dont find any flaming but a good hot discussion.
ITS OK ! I posted this before in this thread also but since you are here once again I ask once again as a humble client ( not as a webhost):

Does cpanel shows for both the host and the client the real bandwidth that is to be billed ?
It only shows http bandwidth, use bandmin if you want to see if all.

Compared to any standard FTP ,file transfer and management thru cpanel , the main purpose of webhosting, is crude,slow and cumbersome.Why ?

Filemanager in cpanel is just another option .. you aren't forced to use it.

Does cpanel genarate billings automatically for customers ?

Nope, it does not claim to either.

Why there is no log out button ?

Why do you need one? Can you not just close your browser?

You are serious that persons like Tim,Webdude ,Tina,HostExp and lot more are all wrong ? Those who have shifted to Hsphere,Plesk,Ensim etc are all wrong when they say those are better than cpanel?

Did I ever claim they were all wrong ? I don't agree with everything they say, however some of them have valid points. Did I ever claim that cpanel is always the best solution?

and

Can you make it open source to those who buy it ?
In fact when it uses open source stuff like perl or C or whatever, why it should not be open source

Could you explain to me how an open source model could be a sucessful biz model in this situation, or are you asking for it to be given away for free?

Since I am not much knowledgable I will like to apologise if any of the questions are childish.Thanxxx.

PS : my thanks to those who took a little time off to fling the cow and made the getweb poll a success ( see below)
PSPS : flingthecow is not my site - I am just a visitor there.
__________________________________________________________________

Missing the hottest poll ? Visit getwebpoll at
http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=22921
The best control panel ( moo version )
at http://flingthecow.com/flash

CRego3D

10-09-2001, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by safu
Can you make it open source to those who buy it ?
In fact when it uses open source stuff like perl or C or whatever, why it should not be open source

This is what I don't understand .. I've heard the same request before ..

It seemes now that everybody expects that the source code of any software shoudl be given away for free .. well, with all due respect I don't agree with this, even if the software is crap, a company had the right to protect their intelectual properties of the code, furthermore, what would keep people from just steal it period ?

Then you would have those who would change it left and right, completely mess it up, and then yell at the distributor to fix it (yeah, right ......)

anyway

I rember reading somewhere not long ago, people tought Microsoft was beeing "Micro$oft" becuase they would not release the windows code as well ... sureee, "do you want fries with that ?"

Chicken

10-09-2001, 10:42 AM

Nick, you really should develop your *own* programming language pppffffffftttttt... :eek: :D

safu

10-09-2001, 10:55 AM

everybody expects that the source code of any software shoudl be given away for free "

ummmmm...... I meant whether one can have the source code when one pays for the software like
you have source code when you pay for vbb

I was not expecting anything really but was just asking
since the stuff that cpanel thrives on are ( unlike MS Windows)
linux-apache
c or c++ or perl or whatever
and all these are
are open source
majority of softwares based on this are open source too

Then you would have those who would change it left and right, completely mess it up, and then yell at the distributor to fix it (yeah, right ......)

I wonder whether it happens with vbb too - vbb has more users than cpanel ( I know the two are entirely different stuff but here I am speaking of people messing up open source )

May be there can be two versions then of cpanel

higher $$ - codes available to make necessary custom-changes
and bug fixes personally so that companies like
webdude are not forced to huge losses
lower $$ - compiled one - no changes possible

Microsoft actually opted for the first option - they paid $$$$ to make the code for "windows" open source to themselves only from Apple ( originally Xerox's) - same is true of their browser.

Anyway I agree all good stuff come compiled like the good control panel I am using now ( though to control cows ;) ) and I dont need open source for that. Cheers :)

____________________________________________
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Annette

10-09-2001, 01:20 PM

Safu, all I can say is that if you base your choice of a host solely around what control panel they use (or don't use), you're going to be missing out on a ton of good hosts. We now have three different cps in use, and guess what - they're all the same, for the most part, in that they all have specific strengths and weaknesses. cPanel is by far the most flexible, the Alabanza cp is by far the most stable, and the Cobalt cp is just a real pain, IMO. The various faults that Tim finds with cPanel we do not, in 90% of the issues he raised.

- Subdomains do work, although not consistently, and this is for more reasons than cPanel.
- We have had cPanel reinstalled on a box that was active, without issue (no problems, even though it wasn't a fresh machine).
- Exim, although it takes a little getting used to, is a perfectly good MTA. It also supports procmail filters and piping, just as sendmail does (which we have in use on the Alabanza side of things).
- The backup option from the cp works fine, and is something I wish Alabanza would incorporate (along with the ability to let users add subs on their own).
- We've changed the root mySQL pass without issue, directly from WHM.
- Stats are sporadic in working/not working, but I can't verify that it's cPanel causing it since on at least two occasions it's been the user running out of disk space that created the problem.
- The SSL generation works fine now, although on our very first cPanel server it did not. That was five months ago, and since then, it has worked. Right now there is a problem with the installation of certs from WHM - something that I reported as a bug (which is in fact the appropriate method of bringing issues like this to the attention of the dev team), just as I reported an issue with the new FP extension installs (since repaired).
- We've installed Perl modules from WHM for people with dedicated boxes, and they work fine. Others require manual installation, and that's perfectly normal. It's also not a cPanel issue.
- We have yet to have the cPanel update run fail, even though I will say that some of the updates made have had the unfortunate effect of disrupting another function. Sending those issues to the dev team results in a fix much faster than any other provider has ever demonstrated in our experience.
- We have yet to see any site's bandwidth totals not reset at the beginning of the month.
- Errors in named.conf I've seen, but only after a reseller has done something weird to an account setup. Easily fixed, and not something I would be willing to lay at cPanel's feet.
- While I'm not a huge fan of the File Manager script they chose, it works. Interchange/Akopia works now, although we had some issues with it at first - we have a handful of sites using it actively, with others opting for a mySQL-based cart. Neomail works as well, even though some people get irritated at the sig tag inserted by the creator of it. It's a lot better than web mail check on the Alabanza side, in fact.

And so on and so on.

Now, I can guess at Tim's issues with cPanel, based on the voluminous postings he's made about it. He's entitled to his opinion, to be sure, as are the others who have weighed in. However, I think there is an edge of FUD in those posts that is unnecessary. I also think that there has yet to be a cp out there that is a) completely secure or b) so stable that it never requires any fixes. People can say 'avoid cPanel hosts' or 'avoid Alabanza hosts' or 'avoid any host that wrote their own cp' but it all boils down to the fact that some people have very strong opinions about those cps, for whatever reason (personal agenda, general dislike of it for reasons that can't be verified in a technical sense, and so on) just as some people have very strong opinions about what hosts to avoid at all costs. It doesn't make them more right than someone else.

I don't think Nick is doing an injustice to himself or to cPanel at all. He's certainly more calm about this than some other people that have populated this thread. He's also entirely correct that first line issues should be addressed to the distributor. This is exactly the same concept of having resellers in virtual hosting - they handle the first contact with their clients and things get bumped up the line from there. I can only imagine how our support level would increase were all of our resellers' clients to start contacting us directly instead of contacting the reseller first.

Choosing a host is more than just choosing which cp they have in place. As it should be.

LLT

10-09-2001, 02:22 PM

Very well put, Annette. Thanks for the insight. :)

safu

10-09-2001, 03:10 PM

Hi Annette !

Thankxxx :) That was a whole lot of info.

>>Safu, all I can say is that if you base your choice of a host solely around what control panel they use (or don't use), you're going to be missing out on a ton of good hosts. - Annette

I meant all other stuff remaining same ( bandwidth,space.perl,MySQL, support etc) I will choose the host without any cpanel.

I find that there are 3 main uses of an account :

i.managing mails
ii.managing files
iii.managing other stuff like MySQL,subdomains,custom mime etc and miscl

My choice of host depends on more how I will use my account - here I can speak for myself only- similar needing people may find my thoughts useful.

i. I do not need to manage my mails - I do not need mails ( I use a separate service)
ii. I find that to manage files - FTP like wsftp far more superior and FAST compared to cpanel
iii.Regarding MySQL and subdomain - yes - cpanel is cool - I have said this 3 times before in this thread that this part of cpanel I liked most.The other stuffs like custom mime , custom error etc can be done by other means as well.

Many people bee-line for cpanel host but as they mature I guess they are not so much after this sort of stuff - rather they become interested in basic controls like shell etc ( I admit I am a newbie re this)

The other possible and useful uses of a panel FOR ME could have been ( but which are not there)

*real time full bandwidth stats that I will be billed for

[ bdraco : "It only shows http bandwidth" ]

*billing stats which I could see whenever I wanted

[bdraco : "it does not claim to either. " ...I did not say it said to claim . I asked why it does not since it is a "control" panel]

* log out button - nothing very serious but an account controlpanel without log out button ? I wont be a taker

[bdraco : "Why do you need one? Can you not just close your browser? "
uhhh... there you see - thats the entire crux - I might use my FTP and shell as well - why do I need a cpanel :D ]

* open source - it would have been good to play with then -
[bdraco : "Could you explain to me how an open source model could be a sucessful biz model in this situation, or are you asking for it to be given away for free? "
I have already said my ideas about open source to CRego3D 2 or 3 posts back
open source models like VBB or various php -perl softwares are more success than their creators thought would be and making more money than cpanel it seems :)]

Last but not the least accounts without cpanel are more secure than those with cpanel - I talked a lot on this with many senior people and many forums - I am convinced.I discovered that Yahoo,MSN , Ebay etc do not use cpanel for their sensitive accounts.It is not that I run an ecomm or defence site but still it is good to have one secure account.

Regarding Ensim etc I was already mentioning in this thread that they are better options than cpanel as far as I deciphered from various posts.

Thanxxx again Annette - please continue your feedback.I fully agree when you say "Choosing a host is more than just choosing which cp they have in place".It has been great to know about your site too.Cheers :)

______________________________________________
Its not Ensim,neither Hsphere,nor Plesk - you are missing the best
control panel ( moo version ) - click here
http://flingthecow.com/flash

Kylecool

10-09-2001, 08:05 PM

because all in all, your opinion means nothing.

GOOD, your OPINION MEANS NOTHING TO ME TOO :) (TIM'S)

I do agree with Annette. It was well said, nice and professional. THey have a lot of servers at Pegasus that utilize Cpanel, and large hosts like them use it the most (Usually), and therefore they would have the best opinion in my mind. :) Nice Annette!

-Kyle

Nicholas Brown

10-09-2001, 08:10 PM

open source models like VBB

vB has a 50% piracy rate. Poor John and James are Battling pirates

LLT

10-09-2001, 09:21 PM

Very true, Nicholas. Jelsoft does have a high piracy rate, which is a shame. I think they're doing a good job at battling it though. They used to (I don't know if they still do) have some pretty slick anti-piracy code slipped in behind the scenes. I for one was impressed. :)

Nicholas Brown

10-09-2001, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by LLT
Very true, Nicholas. Jelsoft does have a high piracy rate, which is a shame. I think they're doing a good job at battling it though. They used to (I don't know if they still do) have some pretty slick anti-piracy code slipped in behind the scenes. I for one was impressed. :)

Oh its still there :D - shame they cant encode all the files using the Zend Encoder - would limit their customer base too much :(

safu

10-09-2001, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by Nicholas Brown

vB has a 50% piracy rate. Poor John and James are Battling pirates

lol...VB must have been lucky.
The estimated pirated version users of Win 9X has been 67 %
Photoshop ( Adobe) 55% and many more such "closed source" softwares ( PC Quest Apr 2000)

Pirates seem not to bother whether it is close or open - they keep on pirating :(

___________________________________________

no piracy, but pure ecstasy- click here
http://flingthecow.com/flash

Annette

10-09-2001, 10:10 PM

Safu, I'm delighted that you're not of the crowd that bases a decision on a single factor. Warms my heart. :)

I would disagree with your comment regarding the relative maturing of clients and that such maturing equates to a migration to a shell-based control mindset. In our experience, the vast majority of people have no desire to do anything but manage the basic features of their account - mail, subdomains, databases. The rest they can take or leave, and most wouldn't know what to do with a command prompt anyway (nor would they want one).

The primacy of my thoughts on this issue lie in my objection to the automatic disqualification of a control panel based on someone's say-so, because that someone doesn't need/doesn't want/doesn't like the features that such a control panel offers (not to say you do this, of course, just in a general sense). The only thing such a condition means is that the control panel is not appropriate for that user. The rest of this conversation - especially the tangent on bugs/security - is something that merely adds to the very thing to which I object: it makes it appear that one particular product is so incredibly bad that it must be avoided at all costs, when in fact, such thinking could apply to any control panel product - or even to the relative merits of, say, vi over emacs. For instance, I would never recommend to someone that they do not use the Cobalt control panel just because I don't personally care for it (I don't) or because there are security issues surrounding it (there are, just as there are for everything else out there). If that cp offered what the user needed, so be it, as long as the host in question understands the issues surrounding the use of it and can intelligently address any concerns that might arise.

"Last but not the least accounts without cpanel are more secure than those with cpanel - I talked a lot on this with many senior people and many forums - I am convinced.I discovered that Yahoo,MSN , Ebay etc do not use cpanel for their sensitive accounts.It is not that I run an ecomm or defence site but still it is good to have one secure account."

I'm not clear on what you mean here - are you saying that Yahoo, et al do not use cPanel (the product from DarkOrb) or that they do not use a control panel? If the former, I would expect not - in fact, I would expect that many large companies develop their own specialized products to manage their businesses. If the latter - those examples you cited are not in a shared hosting environment. I would imagine they manage things on any particular server in a manner that would be the easiest for both their admins and their business model, whatever that might be. For their applications, that would probably be from a command line. But again, we're talking apples and oranges here, and the comparison is not a good example.

Tim Greer

10-09-2001, 10:38 PM

I was told of the latest posts -- someone messaged me with a summary and felt I should respond. Although it's great that people are supportive of the product they use, are open minded and can think for themselves, I resent the fact that people are insinuating that my comments were based on a simple dislike or resort to the claim that all products are buggy and insecure. Even if that was the case, it needn't be. Even then, not to this degree. There is a rather large difference and the fact that many hosts I'm aware of (some whom posted here), have had these problems, does show that even if you don't experience said problems, it's certainly reasonable to be open to the idea that they do exist. That said, I think it would support my standing of how poor a product it is. I'm not aware of any other control panel product that has this amount of problems and to this degree.

This simply comes down to personal experience, personal opinion and people getting defensive because they choose to run said product -- so of course they will (and probably should, I guess) defend it. I'm tired of people side stepping issues and even claiming that I never reported these bugs. I clearly said I did such. I wrote out the exact problem, how it came about and why it came about (as much as I could say in regard to that) and the people I was supporting sent it off through the proper channels. I resent the fact that people still assume nothing was ever attempted -- and these problems still remain now.

I didn't comment with the reasons I gave, because I dislike the developer or the product, it's simply honest and insightful experiences, nothing more. How many here have been programming products like this for years? How many of you? I've developed many complex products and indeed, they didn't have any bugs or security issues. It's not as difficult as you might assume, but if people aren't developers, I don't expect them to know this. All I can do, is tell you that's not a fact, because I know these things. This isn't an insult, but I have and this feels like a semi knowledgeable hosted client, trying to tell me they know what's best for the server, when it's apparent they don't have that knowledge to be discerning what is a good or bad idea -- that's not to say that everyone that posting any opposing or agreeing comment or opinion is unknowledgeable, but I fail to see where people can rightfully discern the situation enough based on the things that have been said to have the gall to question what I said and my motives for it. People might not like what I said, but I know what I'm saying and this isn't just all based on my "opinion".

Let me be clear and say this simply; The rhetoric involved that threw some people off so much, was a product of the rest of the off topic posts. I clearly said and simply, initially, that I didn't think Cpanel hosts were the best software based hosts and gave reason for it. The rest of this "unneeded" ranting, was simply a result and response to and about the rest of the other irrelevant aspects brought up to discredit what I said, so I provided more information in that regard. It's pretty sad I have to explain that. Yeah, sure, a lot of repeating and a lot of irrelevance, but that doesn't change ONE THING that I said and the fact that people want to resort to this, is insulting -- especially these insinuations by people I've seen around and even respected for a while.

I'm not some inexperienced, angry jerk that is just upset that I can't figure out how to run a server and Cpanel/WHM doesn't do this for me. This product, over a very long time of experience and use, to me personally, should not be licensed out. Dare I say that perhaps people that think it's quality, are not knowledgeable enough to make the call. Maybe they think this because they haven't had the problems, so it's justified -- but do not make the mistake of playing semantics here and act like I've got any other motive other than an insight and experience that other people obviously have not. These assumptions and beliefs about the reasons for my comments and my claims, are really getting old and I'm somewhat disappointed that people I'd have assumed would know of me well enough to take some confidence that I'm speaking the facts, seem to take another approach and post their own rhetoric. Well, oh well.

If it makes anyone feel better, I very clearly said in my second or third post, that I suggest that they don't avoid Cpanel hosts, but to avoid Cpanel and that they could be missing out on a very good hosting experience with a good, knowledgeable host, because they said no because they were using Cpanel -- and I said that's not all there is to your hosting experience. For example, Annette at hostmatters uses it on some of their servers -- they have a good reputation, as do Site5 to a lot of people, as does HostRocket to a lot of people (and some of these people I consider my friends, and some of them I respect). In fact, we used it ourselves (and currently still do until our product is released (hopefully very, very soon!)), not that we like(d) it, and decided we'd better serve our clients with (more) stable software that has better quality. I was being fair and honest. I never said every Cpanel host had these problems, just all of them I know of that I talk to (quite a few) do have these problems. It's wonderful some of you don't, really. However, people are free to assume whatever they like about my post and reasons for posting, if it makes them feel better about the situation or the facts I presented... and *good luck* to you.

That said, I again understand that people will defend the product they use, it's business, but don't post any nonsense as if I didn't make very good points to support my opinion about Cpanel. Apparently I have to resort to saying that "Cpanel breaks" is my opinion. Well, I'll stop typing now, before anyone else gets confused and overlooks the points of this post now -- I've already covered everything else anyway -- and like I said, I didn't want to feel I had to post again about this nonsense. I don't know why I have to spell it out... thanks for the support, guys. Well, good luck...

Annette

10-09-2001, 11:06 PM

Come on, Tim - don't hide. Just direct your comments to me if you're going to make them. "Resort to the claim that everything is buggy and insecure" - does this mean that whatever product Jaguar is creating is going to be perfect? No? Then the "claim", as you call it, is perfectly justified. There is nothing that has no bugs, and there is nothing that is completely secure, and you know that. Nobody ever said you, personally, Tim Greer, told people to avoid cPanel hosts - the comment that I made regarding peoples' outright dismissal of a host simply because of whatever cp is in use is based on the title of this very thread (or hadn't you noticed the title?).

I never indicated that I didn't believe that problems existed or that others had not experienced them - I read cpanel.net and talk to other hosts. Nor did I say that you, personally, Tim Greer, had some sort of ulterior motive in making your posts (unless you want to take everything that anyone says in a general sense personally, which seems to be your modus operandi much of the time). My examples were simply a counterpoint to your implication that these problems were so huge and so prevalent that it would take an incredibly idiotic person to use the product at all. That is not the case, despite your attempts to make it seem like some big rationalization on others' parts. "Dare I say that perhaps people that think it's quality, are not knowledgeable enough to make the call." It takes a certain arrogance to believe that you must be, by default, the smartest or most knowledgeable person in the room. The only person that is making any assumptions throughout any of this is you, ironically enough. I'll leave the rest of your little backhanded insults alone, because I'm simply not interested in that sort of thing - you've demonstrated time and again that if people don't agree 100% with you that it gets your knickers in a twist, and I did expect something like this from you after I made that initial post and the followup. However, unlike you, I have zero interest in debating whatever personal affront you delight in taking to threads that go on and on like this, so that's the last I'll address it, as I prefer to remain in the more productive realm of the discussion that Safu started in the first place.

Tim Greer

10-09-2001, 11:15 PM

Annette, you assume too much. Recall you had this same reaction about all the stuff you posted about TH, as did I. People take offense and start this, when they are personally involved by using the host or product in question. I can understand that, but don't assume that I was speaking directly to you either. I was sort of surprised to see you comment like you did, when it seemed you insinuated these things were meant to be about myself -- maybe I assume too much. You'll notice that everything I said in my last post above, was not only said by yourself, but other people -- and yes, even about the "every product has problems, is buggy and insecure". Well, that's simply not true, but that, nor anything else was directed to you, but to everyone that said these things. I can understand the defense, but these remarks and comments by yourself and other's, just isn't justified when you're assuming so much about what I said in my posts. Perhaps you read that post before I ammended it a minute ago. Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you about this -- everything that needs to be said, was said above. Good luck.

safu

10-09-2001, 11:27 PM

Thanxxx Tim,Thanxxx Annette - people may differ in opinion but I must say I am benefitting a lot of knowledge from these posts.
I am also grateful that people contributed to my thread so much even though I am not a regular big name in this forums ( may be I have only 30 or 40 posts here - still newbie).Thanxxx. :)

________________________________________________

0.000% downtime, guaranteed with unmetered " unlimited" hits at
http://flingthecow.com/flash

Annette

10-09-2001, 11:36 PM

I assume nothing. I read what you post.

Whatever "defense" you think is necessary escapes me, quite honestly. I don't defend things just because I use them, I defend things because they need defending or because counterpoints are required to demonstrate that it's not as dire as some people would have everyone think. You have seen enough of my posts to know that, so to claim that it's all business (at least in my case) is ludicrous. I'm not interested in debating that with you, though, just as you are not interested in debating it with me.

Back on topic: We use three different cps. Guess what? They all have issues. I defy anyone to find any cp that's perfect. It cannot be done, because such a product does not exist. Control panels are written for the convenience of the clients who use them, and are (hopefully) as secure as they can be made to be. I'd choose a moderately crap cp at a great host who understand the particular issues surrounding that cp in a heartbeat over something (anything) that someone claimed was without flaw, because I would know that the latter person is lying and so is not to be trusted. However, I certainly (as the title of this thread implies) would not automatically rule out any host based on the cp in use - the point of my posts. It's a bit like the Ford/Chevy camps or the PC/Mac camps - people rule out the use of a tool because of perceived flaws that render the product completely unusable, which is not always the case, even though there may certainly be issues that require addressing. I'm not a big fan of Chicken Little. Never was.

(All of this reminds me why I hardly ever visit this place any longer. There needs to be a WHT law about threads degenerating - a sort of corollary to Godwin's on Usenet.)

Tim Greer

10-09-2001, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by Annette
Come on, Tim - don't hide. Just direct your comments to me if you're going to make them. "Resort to the claim that everything is buggy and insecure" -

Well, looks to me like we both assumed things, I explained this in my post above. I think I better respond to your points now though, in addition, to make sure you don't assume more.

does this mean that whatever product Jaguar is creating is going to be perfect? No?

Did I answer that? Please don't answer a question for me. I promise you, that the aspects involved are so simple, that it's perfectly reasonable to code a secure and non-buggy control panel. Tell me Annette, are you a programmer? Are you me? Why exactly does every program have to be subject to bugs and insecurities?

Then the "claim", as you call it, is perfectly justified.

Thank you, so stop being a smart alec about it to try and act like you are smarter than everyone else involved in the discussion.

There is nothing that has no bugs,

That's a ridiculous statement. This is what I mean about you going too far with these claims to discredit what other people say. All the programs I code, don't have bugs and none are insecure -- none. Sure, sometimes people are tired, aren't paying attention and codes can become buggy or have syntax errors or whatever. I've done that, but this is not a result of that. I've coded some very complex scripts and they do a variety of things and I've never had one problem. There's programs out there by other people that don't have bugs or insecure aspects too. Are you a programmer, Annette?

and there is nothing that is completely secure,

Okay, tell me, what's insecure about this code?

#!/usr/bin/perl
print 'hello';

What's buggy about that? Indeed, the most non interactive and basic example in the world, but do you see anything that makes it insecure or buggy? Why do you assume, just because more functions are added, that it means it will have to result in being buggy or insecure? Sounds like you need to hire better programmers.

and you know that.

Cop out... Don't tell me what I know... because I happen to know better. You can try and discredit my comments all you like, but I'm speaking from experience, where you're speaking from opinion, based on what you think of my character. Should I comment on yours? Will that help?

Nobody ever said you, personally, Tim Greer, told people to avoid cPanel hosts

People in this thread did. It's really not all about you, Annette, really.

- the comment that I made regarding peoples' outright dismissal of a host simply because of whatever cp is in use is based on the title of this very thread (or hadn't you noticed the title?).

Well, that was super smart. What's your point?

I never indicated that I didn't believe that problems existed or that others had not experienced them

Well, you certainly gave your opinion about why people would post about it. Further, and again, this response wasn't directed solely to you, as I've said previously and other's did specifically state just that. What did you miss about the first line of my response where I said that I was messaged about the new posts -- plural, not "Annette's post(s)".

- I read cpanel.net and talk to other hosts. Nor did I say that you, personally, Tim Greer, had some sort of ulterior motive in making your posts

Right, you just "insinuated it", like you insinuate things in this very post -- so you can claim that you're the person that's staying on topic and to the point. Neat trick... but, wait... what's this below??

(unless you want to take everything that anyone says in a general sense personally, which seems to be your modus operandi much of the time).

Ah... yeeeeahhh.. there we go! That's what I was waiting for.... Good thing you don't resort to that sort of thing. Speaking of people taking things stated in a general sense personally... do you realize the irony in your comment, in light of the fact that my response was NOT directed to YOU, even if you did comment about a lot of the same things other people did that I responded to. Did I say I wasn't responding in part to you, since you also said these same things? No, I didn't. (Just to help you along before you assume again).

My examples were simply a counterpoint to your implication

And you could easily leave it at that, which you should definitely let the guy know. However, to assume and remark about what motives people had to post anything in opposition. let's not contradict ourselves.

that these problems were so huge and so prevalent that it would take an incredibly idiotic person to use the product at all.

This response ahas been ammended below in another post due to lack of room, I made a mistake when I read that quote.

That is not the case, despite your attempts to make it seem like some big rationalization on others' parts.

Say what you want, you think you're more justified and qualified than anyone else that you don't happen to be agreeing with at the time, so have at it.

"Dare I say that perhaps people that think it's quality, are not knowledgeable enough to make the call."

A classic.

It takes a certain arrogance to believe that you must be, by default, the smartest or most knowledgeable person in the room.

Do you really not realize that this is the very attitude you commit to? Further, I never acted that way, I simply said it how it is. Maybe you just don't know better. How else can I say that without insulting you? How can someone say that without coming off like they know more? Obviously a comment because I do. That doesn't mean that because I have the ability to discern that this product is complete crap, that I think I'm some god. Get real, you are not able to, nor will you, take things out of context in a manner to try and make you feel better and more safe about your opinions and your choices. Maybe you don't know better, or do you personally know everything, Annette? Tell me something, why is it so unbelievable that I just might know about this to a degree that makes my comments and opinions justified? Maybe this just happens to be what I knew best and excel at. Maybe the people that don't agree, just aren't knowledgeable enough. Will you find that offensive? Of course. Does that mean it's not true? Of course not. It's not arrogant to state the truth -- the truth hurts sometimes. Sorry.

The only person that is making any assumptions throughout any of this is you,

Wrong. I haven't made any assumptions, other than maybe make a mistake like you did and think your comment was probably directed to me. Other than that, I've made none, and not about this software or the quality of it.

ironically enough.

That you're contradicting yourself? :-)

I'll leave the rest of your little backhanded insults alone

And I'll leave most of yours alone. This snooty attitude acting like you're better than people you don't agree with, gets really old, Annette.

, because I'm simply not interested in that sort of thing

Then why did you do exactly that sort of thing?

- you've demonstrated time and again that if people don't agree 100% with you that it gets your knickers in a twist,

Pot->Kettle->Black. This is insane!

and I did expect something like this from you after I made that initial post and the followup.

Wow, I was just thinking the same!

However, unlike you, I have zero interest in debating whatever personal affront you delight in taking to threads that go on and on like this,

Oh my goodness... *LOL*... someone needs to invest in a mirror. "Unlike YOU, I don't resort to this sort of thing, you big, lying, arrogant jerk that's not at my intellectual level". Should I use crayon to write it?

so that's the last I'll address it,

Sure... right.. or you'll just go with the "I'm just going to ignore the guy that responded to my post or block him, because I'm too good for that", after you threw in your petty insults. Well, I'm impressed.

as I prefer to remain in the more productive realm of the discussion that Safu started in the first place.

When you stated things to the person that asked the initial question, about how people are basically just making these claims out of opinion, that reflected on myself. The subject was covered, your response, albeit you had some valid points, was only your experience and opinion and that does NOT negate mine or my claims or reasons. You however, acted and pretty much flat out said your remarks in a manner that would indicate that and it's not true. I'm not sure what you don't get here, but I've never seen such a massive amount of ironic, contradictive crap in my life from someone making comments like you.

clever

10-09-2001, 11:57 PM

Tim,

I just have a question about your posts - no offence intended.

Why do you keep typing up paragraphs of the same thing. You split one simple sentence into 2 big paragraphs and keep on repeating basically the same point over and over.

It just a comment.

Tim Greer

10-10-2001, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by Annette
I assume nothing. I read what you post.

You "assumed that the post was directly specifically to you". You said this and that I shouldn't "hide". Like anyone here would actually believe I'd side step any issues I saw or would hide away and not confront someone. Please!

You know Annette, throughout all the news group posts and posts on the boards. It seems to me (my opinion about you, since you're giving me yours about me), is that you love to complain about any problem you have (this is all logged), and I do too. We both say what we think and let problems with people or companies be known. And no, I'm not saying we are the same. However, one of the differences, is that you seem to think you're justified and content and have every right to complain about a service or product, but if someone else does, you act like they have no right to complain and are just annoying. I.e., unless it affects YOU and YOU have a problem with it, you don't care what reason or anything about the person, you'll jump on their case. Of course YOU find it annoying I'm saying negative things about a product YOU use and endorse. Well, how is that sort of mentality new? But, can you at least be a little more subtle about it, because this is ridiculous! Personally, I listen to what someone says, and if they might know something I don't or have my knowledge or are more qualified, I'll never get on their case and insult them and just flip out about it.

Whatever "defense" you think is necessary escapes me, quite honestly.

Yes, I'm sure it does....

I don't defend things just because I use them,

Well, that and because you don't like the person that's complaining about it.

I defend things because they need defending

I imagine a product this bad would need a lot of defending. You're right, how DARE I say anything bad about a bad product! Did I ever say I was speaking for YOU? Exactly what problem do you have with me responding to and about this product and posts made about myself and the situation that I know about or have an opinion of?

or because counterpoints are required to demonstrate that it's not as dire as some people would have everyone think.

Opinions, assumptions, and general rhetoric and dislike for how I post or myself or what I state that you haven't had happen to YOU, is not a counter point, unless you specifically and honestly post about it -- and you're not.

You have seen enough of my posts to know that,

Oh, I've seen your posts and I know about you. The rest is covered above.

so to claim that it's all business (at least in my case) is ludicrous.

Sorry, you're right, it's personal for you. You have a personal issue with anyone not agreeing with you and a product you use. It probably makes you look foolish to be using it in your opinion. I don't know.

I'm not interested in debating that with you,

Than stop debating it with me and leave me and my comments alone and stop trying to find reasons to talk trash about me.

though, just as you are not interested in debating it with me.

Yes, true. I had respect for you and your opinions before this. Now I feel it was a product of agreeing with you, or perhaps just not having you pull this on me before. Too bad, I liked you as a person and for the TH saga which we both got flack for. Now, I'm getting flack from you, because you don't agree with me, which is really unfair.

Back on topic: We use three different cps. Guess what? They all have issues.

Do any of all of them have the amount of problems and the type of problems that I listed and to those degrees?

I defy anyone to find any cp that's perfect.

To stay on topic and true, I never claimed any Cp out there was perfect. I said one could be created that would work perfect (and I am speaking as in no server/hardware issues -- but the control panel itself). Nonetheless, there's a difference between perfect and gross incompetence.

It cannot be done,

It can.

because such a product does not exist.

So we couldn't get to the moon either, because we hadn't yet? Are you joking, or did that not come out right?

Control panels are written for the convenience of the clients who use them, and are (hopefully) as secure as they can be made to be.

True.

I'd choose a moderately crap cp at a great host who understand the particular issues surrounding that cp

Well, provided the Cpanel doesn't put them in a compromising position to make their client's suffer because there's nothing the host can do about it. That was the basis for my issues with Cpanel, in case you didn't notice.

in a heartbeat over something (anything) that someone claimed was without flaw,

What does that have to do with anything? Either the host is capable and able to work with it or without/around it, or not. This is ridiculous.

because I would know that the latter person is lying and so is not to be trusted.

Wow, great way to throw in the insult and discredit factor -- assuming (yes, I am) that you are referring to my comment that it can be flawless. And, I would be smart enough to think they meant "no known flaws and the design indicates no flaws are likely to happen". Although I know a bug free and secure control panel can be developed and I say it publicly, I wouldn't saw that it will never have a flaw, even if it wouldn't. There's knowledge, there's confidence and than there's being a fool.

However, I certainly (as the title of this thread implies) would not automatically rule out any host based on the cp in use - the point of my posts.

You didn't make your point well at all, but I can respect that comment and I agree.

It's a bit like the Ford/Chevy camps or the PC/Mac camps - people rule out the use of a tool because of perceived flaws that render the product completely unusable, which is not always the case, even though there may certainly be issues that require addressing. I'm not a big fan of Chicken Little. Never was.

Oh boy...

(All of this reminds me why I hardly ever visit this place any longer.

Because you can't deal with people treating you like you treat them?

There needs to be a WHT law about threads degenerating - a sort of corollary to Godwin's on Usenet.)

I agree. Well, that or you maybe practice what you preach. Hey, at least I'm honest and open about what I know, think and say. I'm human, I get upset, I respond and sometimes go off on an irrelevant opinion or subject they bring up, but I don't claim, ever, that I'm perfect or act like I'm not aware that I'm partly the problem for responding to, uh... trolls... I admit it, I have a problem... I need to go to my T.A. meeting.. sorry I've got to scram... :-)

Tim Greer

10-10-2001, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by clever
Tim,

I just have a question about your posts - no offence intended.

Why do you keep typing up paragraphs of the same thing. You split one simple sentence into 2 big paragraphs and keep on repeating basically the same point over and over.

It just a comment.

People don't get it the first time, so I emphasize and I respond to each and every point, in context, to they have a chance of understanding it. Plus, I just like to see myself type. :-)

bbrader

10-10-2001, 12:58 AM

I feel sorry for your keyboard.

-Brendan

Kylecool

10-10-2001, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by bbrader
I feel sorry for your keyboard.

-Brendan

LMAO

HEHEHEHE!

Nice one Mr. Brader! :)

-Kyle

Tim Greer

10-10-2001, 01:05 AM

This is ammended from a post above (2 previous posts.

that these problems were so huge and so prevalent that it would take an incredibly idiotic person to use the product at all.

I made a huge mistake in my response, because I misread the above comment and thought she was speaking of the developer.

And I said: "And I completely agree! :-) To me, yes. Very bad experiences with a product and the attitude that I got from the developer when I made polite and relevant attempts to get the bugs reported and fixed, which you obviously did not experience, makes me believe this. This program is a result of gross incompetence. Then again, a lot of client's got pissed off at yourself, when you emailed them about TH and Peter's actions, when you knew better about him. I'll use that as a comparison."

However, as for people using it being complete idiot's, well, if you got that impression that's what I meant, Annette, than that supports my theory why you're posting like you are. I didn't say that to offend anyone or question their knowledge so much, but they'd HAVE to be an "idiot" (as you say) to not heed any advice and act like I'm just complaining because I like to compain.. as if I like to deal with the problems. Most people chose Cpanel, because they didn't know better at the time. Well, actually, that's only true of some of the hosts, since most people use it, because they don't know anything. Now, don't contort that like everything else and let me be clear what I mean. That's not to say that everyone that uses it doesn't know anything, some people know a lot that use it.

However, MOST people don't know how to run a server and they use Cpanel and rely on it to do everything. Then, there's those that didn't know (or won't accept the fact) that there's problems to such a degree that it's a bad idea to use it -- and some find out the hard way and find alternatives or form opinions you won't want to hear. Mostly though, people don't know that a product (that's only popular with people in WHT, btw), appears to be the buzz and popular and people try it out. Some people have big problems after they've got it on a few servers and that's not fun. I'm just speaking truths and facts and my comment that maybe they just don't know enough about the situation or program to make any calls one way or the other, is and has been true. If they think it's a good program, I honestly don't think they have the knowledge to make the call.

If they did, they simply wouldn't think it was a good program and be making these types of arguments. That's not offensive, I'm sure you know a lot of things I don't, but I'm sure I know a lot you don't and this is one of them, which is blatantly obvious. Now, with that said (my ammendment here to clear that mistake of mine up), I'll stop posting about this. This is ridiculous -- the rest of the posts stand, they clearly depict my opinions, claims and reasons... You can think what you want.

Now, that said, I don't even care what nonsense people respond with (although few people have), I'm not going to comment again, because If I need to, it's never going to end with those people. This is really a mess now and people are just freaking out. I mean, I suppose someone can reply to this or my other posts and might seem like they made a good point, put it all into perspective or whatever, and I could respond and clear it up and we can go back and forth and I can explain or point things out until I'm blue in the face -- but I'm far from interested in measuring ego's. So, good luck everyone!

AH-Tina

10-10-2001, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by bbrader
I feel sorry for your keyboard.

-Brendan

I wonder if his is like mine...several of the letters have worn off the keyboard. :D

You can't see the D, F, N, M C and L on mine!

--Tina

Webdude

10-10-2001, 01:29 AM

I think Annette and Tim should go visit their marriage counselor :D

Kylecool

10-10-2001, 01:31 AM

I second that! :)

-Kyle

Tim Greer

10-10-2001, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by AffordableHost

I wonder if his is like mine...several of the letters have worn off the keyboard. :D

You can't see the D, F, N, M C and L on mine!

--Tina

My keyboard is probably in somewhat similar condition as Stephen King's -- if he used a computer. Yeah, I got through a keyboard about every 4 to 6 months at most. :-)

Tim Greer

10-10-2001, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by Webdude
I think Annette and Tim should go visit their marriage counselor :D

Are you saying we're over!? *uncontrolled sobbing!* *L*

AH-Tina

10-10-2001, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by Tim_Greer

My keyboard is probably in somewhat similar condition as Stephen King's -- if he used a computer. Yeah, I got through a keyboard about every 4 to 6 months at most. :-)

Yes! I actually have a big stack of old ones that don't work properly (spilled drinks, dead keys, worn out cords, etc.) - but, for some reason, I can't toss them out because I think I might eventually fix them. :eek:

I think this keyboard is going to end up in that stack very soon!

--Tina

SoftWareRevue

10-10-2001, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by AffordableHost

I wonder if his is like mine...several of the letters have worn off the keyboard. :D

You can't see the D, F, N, M C and L on mine!

--Tina Lucky you don't look where you type then, or you'd never make it through "Affordablehost.com - - Tina"

:eek: :eek2: :eek:

Tim Greer

10-10-2001, 01:45 AM

Originally posted by AffordableHost

Yes! I actually have a big stack of old ones that don't work properly (spilled drinks, dead keys, worn out cords, etc.) - but, for some reason, I can't toss them out because I think I might eventually fix them. :eek:

I think this keyboard is going to end up in that stack very soon!

--Tina

Well, if you or anyone else knows what company makes some very sturdy, nice keyboards, let me know... I'd be willing to shell out whatever it costs. On my old Atari (back in 1981, I think), it has a nice keyboard that used springs that never wore out and only an incident with a coke spelled the end for it. I heard there's keyboard made like that now that can be had, but I never found out where. Anyone know? :-) Oh, I better just ask in another thread, actually.

Tim Greer

10-10-2001, 01:46 AM

Originally posted by SoftWareRevue
Lucky you don't look where you type then, or you'd never make it through "Affordablehost.com - - Tina"

:eek: :eek2: :eek:

Yeah, and don't fotget how difficult that makes it to type vulgarities! What would I do? ... Oh, that was tasteful... :-)

AH-Tina

10-10-2001, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by Tim_Greer

Well, if you or anyone else knows what company makes some very sturdy, nice keyboards, let me know... I'd be willing to shell out whatever it costs. On my old Atari (back in 1981, I think), it has a nice keyboard that used springs that never wore out and only an incident with a coke spelled the end for it. I heard there's keyboard made like that now that can be had, but I never found out where. Anyone know? :-) Oh, I better just ask in another thread, actually.

OMG yes! I spilled some Pepsi in one once (old IBM XT 8088 keyboard) - so I took it apart and threw it in the bathtub to clean it. Trying to fit all those stupid springs under all those stupid keys almost drove me over the edge!

Yes, the bathtub method really worked. :)

--Tina

edude

10-10-2001, 01:55 AM

Maybe cpanel/darkorb should enter into the keyboard market? :rolleyes:

bdraco

10-10-2001, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by Tim_Greer

Well, if you or anyone else knows what company makes some very sturdy, nice keyboards, let me know... I'd be willing to shell out whatever it costs. On my old Atari (back in 1981, I think), it has a nice keyboard that used springs that never wore out and only an incident with a coke spelled the end for it. I heard there's keyboard made like that now that can be had, but I never found out where. Anyone know? :-) Oh, I better just ask in another thread, actually.

You need on of those old IBM AT keyboards that click when you type. Those things surive falls from 2 stories ..

bdraco

10-10-2001, 02:00 AM

Tim, here are some ebay links for you.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1282342669
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1282649407

Kylecool

10-10-2001, 02:00 AM

They survive a fall from two stories, eh? Do you speak that from experience? LMAO

-Kyle

Tim Greer

10-10-2001, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by AffordableHost

OMG yes! I spilled some Pepsi in one once (old IBM XT 8088 keyboard) - so I took it apart and threw it in the bathtub to clean it. Trying to fit all those stupid springs under all those stupid keys almost drove me over the edge!

Yes, the bathtub method really worked. :)

--Tina

That's too funny. Understand, back in 1981 (I feel old!), I was only using computers for a few years and I was 9 at the time and I didn't know any better about the hardware side too much. So, of course, I just pop open the keyboard to fix it, right over a big shag carpet and lost the pieces forever. We had to literally buy a new keyboard, because all parts flew everywhere (you know, what happens when you are dealing with Springs!). It's funny to think how expensive it was back then for a keyboard. Of course, another family member had the same accident and by then we upgraded to the new, kick *ss Atari 600! (think that was the model), so we were move careful now that we had a NICE computer! HA HA HA!!

bdraco

10-10-2001, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by Kylecool
They survive a fall from two stories, eh? Do you speak that from experience? LMAO

-Kyle

Yup *grin*

bbrader

10-10-2001, 02:41 AM

I love those old keyboards that have the nice loud assuring click to them. The worst are the laptop keyboards, although my old compaq laptop had a nice clicky keyboard i must admit.

-Brendan

AH-Tina

10-10-2001, 03:14 AM

Originally posted by bbrader
I love those old keyboards that have the nice loud assuring click to them. The worst are the laptop keyboards, although my old compaq laptop had a nice clicky keyboard i must admit.

-Brendan

We should start a campaign to bring back the old clicky/indestructable keyboards.

Tim, you're not old. My first online experience was back in the mid-'80s with a lightning fast 300 baud modem. :eek:

--Tina

Tim Greer

10-10-2001, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by AffordableHost

We should start a campaign to bring back the old clicky/indestructable keyboards.

Tim, you're not old. My first online experience was back in the mid-'80s with a lightning fast 300 baud modem. :eek:

--Tina

Wow! You had a 300 baud! What did that cost you? $2K? *L* Has anyone here seen the movie "The Wedding Singer"?

This guy walks in with this huge box and says to his girlfriend: "This is called a 'Cee-Dee player', it cost me $800 bucks, but the sound is incredible!" Does anyone remember when those first came out and how enourmous those things were? *L* Yeah, but I'm not old or anything! j/k... :-)

Webdude

10-10-2001, 09:46 AM

I have one of those old keyboard, cept mine is grey. That sucker is solid...and heavy! It's not IBM though. I have it around here somewhere, just cant find it. I think it was NLC or something. That thing has survived all kinds of bangs and sodas....and it was bathtub safe..LOL

The only reason I change from it is because I went to a logitech wireless keyboard. I have that nlc around here somewhere...They keys were plastic, but the cover was metal. That's why it was so heavy compared to other keyboards. I dont remember seeing any springs, though there could have been. I do remember that each key had what seemed like a miniature torque bar behind it. It was pretty neat setup..

safu

10-10-2001, 11:14 AM

I bought a cordless Logitech keyboard with a cordless mouse.
The keyboard is bit heavy and no LEDs for Caps and Num Locks - thats a bit dumb. Thinking of upgrading to a cordless ball-less ( optical) mouse if its there :)

I hear in old days there was no monitor - so programmers would sit with a keyboard and a printer :( and thats how all those PRINT commands came in perl and php .
_____________________________________________________

keyboards not needed - just click at
http://flingthecow.com/flash

Jag

10-10-2001, 11:47 AM

Logitech does have a new cordless keyboard and optical mouse . They are black instead of that drab white which is a change I welcome. The combo is $100 at Frys ;)

Webdude

10-10-2001, 12:23 PM

Hmm, your right. This keyboard is a little heavier than a normal one..and no lights, but I imagine that saves battery. I have an optical mouse, but it has a cord. I wish there was a cordless optical, but I imagine it would go thru a lot of batteries..LOL

Perfecthost

10-10-2001, 02:22 PM

I feel totally insulted by the tone of this thread, the attitude that someone is ignorant or stupid if they disagree, the general idea some have of being superior, and the assumption that no one could possibly have as much knowledge as one's self. It is no wonder that there is much email and forum posts being made about certain "programmers" making asses of themselves.

I have always tried to look at WHT as a place to offer or receive help, advice, and encouragement. This thread started off with a derogatory tone and was made worse by persons thinking they are gods of programming and that no one could possibly know as much as themselves.

Hosts that use Cpanel should be avoided, huh? Well, I certainly appreciate that, especially since we and our clients use Cpanel. I feel I have been flamed with a personal insult.

-Lamar

SoftWareRevue

10-10-2001, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Lamar
I feel totally insulted by the tone of this thread, the attitude that someone is ignorant or stupid if they disagree, the general idea some have of being superior, and the assumption that no one could possibly have as much knowledge as one's self. It is no wonder that there is much email and forum posts being made about certain "programmers" making asses of themselves.

I have always tried to look at WHT as a place to offer or receive help, advice, and encouragement. This thread started off with a derogatory tone and was made worse by persons thinking they are gods of programming and that no one could possibly know as much as themselves.

Hosts that use Cpanel should be avoided, huh? Well, I certainly appreciate that, especially since we and our clients use Cpanel. I feel I have been flamed with a personal insult.

-Lamar I've never experienced any real problems with cpanel.
But, I certainly won't dispute that there 'are' problems with the software. There have been many complaints.
But, as this is a discussion board, I enjoy reading everyone's "opinion." And, if it's their opinion that they are right, I can respect that. And, if it's your opinion that someone should not say they are right, I can respect that.
Sometimes we need to slow down and make certain we comprehend what message the poster is trying to convey.

And, "Feel flamed with a personal insult" over the title of the thread?
Did you miss the question mark at the end?
The title of the thread, to me, would suggest that the poster was asking if hosts that offer Cpanel should be avoided. :rolleyes:

froidian

10-10-2001, 02:55 PM

Great thread - even if a little long. Nothing like reading a debate among intelligent, well spoken, and reasonably level headed people :)

I have been surprised at how few hosts and/or users (clients) of cpanel-based hosts have spoken up with stories of horror or bliss.

For what it is worth, I recently moved to Aletia, who I think uses the darkorb cpanel. I've done mostly trivial things, set up pop accts, email filters, subdomains, multi-host domains, stats. Thing has worked fine for me and I'm very happy with Aletia overall.

I can easily recommend them, regardless of their control panel :)

Perfecthost

10-10-2001, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by SoftWareRevue
But, as this is a discussion board, I enjoy reading everyone's "opinion." And, if it's their opinion that they are right, I can respect that. And, if it's your opinion that someone should not say they are right, I can respect that.
Sometimes we need to slow down and make certain we comprehend what message the poster is trying to convey.
I also enjoy reading opinions. I also have no problem with others saying they are right or wrong. I do, however, have a problem with posts which are insulting and insinuate that persons should "avoid" my company because I offer Cpanel.

Did you miss the question mark at the end?
The title of the thread, to me, would suggest that the poster was asking if hosts that offer Cpanel should be avoided.

No, I did not miss the question mark. The post could have been better titled as "Issues With Cpanel". I guess I can say ANYTHING I want, and you should not get upset about it---as long as I have a question mark after it.

You sure did not seem so understanding of others' opinions in that vbulletin thread I read last week.???????????

I apologize to all if I offend. Just mark it up to one of those Cpanel hosts which are too ignorant to understand.

-Lamar

Webdude

10-10-2001, 04:31 PM

Ok, listen. If this is what it takes, then so be it. I am about to tell you and show you how insecure cpanel really is. Those who want to brag up cpanel, let's hope you dont have any malicious clients reading this. But since you refuse to see the light.

We started having all kinds of probs with the darkorb version after suexec was installed. We didnt have this prob with the vdi version. SuEXEC worked fine there..

In some cases, this may not work, I guess it depends on your ftp program. If you have SuEXEC installed, it wont work no matter how you try it.

Log into an account via ftp. Let's say this account is "myoneaccount". You are sitting at:
/home/public_html/myoneaccount
Now in that window where it shows that. Change "myoneaccount" to another one that is on the server (ie: mytwoaccount) and hit "enter" so it changes over.

Amazed? Now you see all their files. Now you want to rename one, change a permission, delete a file? You might not be able to do this in their root, but you can do it in deeper directories.

Now once you install SuEXEC, this prob wont exist. It's such a shame that cpanel cracks when you add a little security isnt it? Now am I going to get hammered for posting this cpanel security issue? Probably. Was I wrong for doing so? I dont think so. The only way for you to know is for you to be told. Now I wonder how many clients will see this, try it, realize how at risk they are, and scramble to get off of and remain off of any cpanel servers?

Now there are other ways you can stop this particular security hole, and some of you may already be using those methods. However, if cpanel is so risky in this obvious scenario, how secure do you think it is everywhere else? Granted, I have rarely found a program with NO bugs or security issues, but never so obvious and blatant as this one.

EDIT
Granted, it's not actually cpanel that allows this. However, since cpanel cracks when you add some security, then if you are going to use cpanel, you basically have two choices.....be insecure, or have a lot of probs. Those are the only choices you have. Your clients automatically assume your servers are secure. Most of YOU automatically assume the same. Now once clients mature and become more knowledgable, they get to this point where they dont want a host that simply works, they want security too. With cpanel, the server security is adequate, but not for client accounts, as shown above...

Nicholas Brown

10-10-2001, 04:46 PM

Not trying to spark things up again.....But SuEXEC is an Apache component. It has absolutely nothing to do with ProFTPD or any other FTP server you are using.

--Nick

Originally posted by Webdude
Now once you install SuEXEC, this prob wont exist. It's such a shame that cpanel cracks when you add a little security isnt it? Now am I going to get hammered for posting this cpanel security issue? Probably. Was I wrong for doing so? I dont think so. The only way for you to know is for you to be told. Now I wonder how many clients will see this, try it, realize how at risk they are, and scramble to get off of and remain off of any cpanel servers?

EDIT
Granted, it's not actually cpanel that allows this. However, since cpanel cracks when you add some security, then if you are going to use cpanel, you basically have two choices.....be insecure, or have a lot of probs. Those are the only choices you have. Your clients automatically assume your servers are secure. Most of YOU automatically assume the same. Now once clients mature and become more knowledgable, they get to this point where they dont want a host that simply works, they want security too. With cpanel, the server security is adequate, but not for client accounts, as shown above...

Webdude

10-10-2001, 04:56 PM

Like I said, there are other ways to stop (or rather, hide) this particular security hole. For example, you can have proftd NOT show the /home/public_html part. However, it is suexec that prevents one user from affecting another. It is suexec that says who can and cannot affect files based on their ownerships and permission.

Let's take a look at cgi scripts. Without suexec, they all operate as nobody. The files created by them are owned by "nobody". A script could be written that basically says
rm -rf /
That would cause it to go thru the system and delete everything it has permission to do so, which means all files and scripts owned by nobody.

Not to mention the headaches it causes. Ever wanted to delete a file created by one of your scripts and got denied? Thats because you dont have permission to delete files owned by "nobody". Only "nobody" and root does.

Now with suexec, each person is their own users, and their scripts act as that user, and the files created by those scripts are owned by that user. Hence, it makes it tons more difficult to hack another account on that server since that other account is a different user.

Once again, add the security you need, and cpanel falls apart! Hsphere is suexec compatible, and I wouldnt be surprised if all the others are too....but cpanel isnt.

Annette

10-10-2001, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by Webdude

In some cases, this may not work, I guess it depends on your ftp program. If you have SuEXEC installed, it wont work no matter how you try it.
...

Amazed? Now you see all their files. Now you want to rename one, change a permission, delete a file? You might not be able to do this in their root, but you can do it in deeper directories.

...

EDIT
Granted, it's not actually cpanel that allows this. However, since cpanel cracks when you add some security, then if you are going to use cpanel, you basically have two choices.....be insecure, or have a lot of probs. Those are the only choices you have. Your clients automatically assume your servers are secure. Most of YOU automatically assume the same. Now once clients mature and become more knowledgable, they get to this point where they dont want a host that simply works, they want security too. With cpanel, the server security is adequate, but not for client accounts, as shown above...

It has, as you know, nothing to do with the FTP program in use. It also has, as you have granted, zero to do with cPanel. And how curious - the procedure you describe works on none of our servers, no matter what cp they're using. Nobody is "bragging up" cPanel (although some people are certainly doing their best to put some other cps on a pedestal, knowing full well that issues exist with them as well), and everyone thus far has granted that it has its own issues, just like everything else. If you have the problem described above, then you have issues - but don't lay something like this down and blame it on the control panel in use when you know darned well it has no bearing on this issue. Be insecure or have lots of probs? I'd like to see justification for such an outlandish claim. Those are certainly not the only two options. And if I sound angry to anyone in these last couple of posts, it's because I am. Needlessly getting people worked up about things is irresponsible, and the continued insulting tone of this thread absolutely annoys me.

The rest is just more FUD, like most of the noise in this thread so far. I find it pretty funny, actually, since not too long ago, everybody and their brother was recommending VO as the place to be. Guess what? All that time, it was cPanel on their servers. Even with all that, it's amusing that the very same people who feel so nobly concerned and righteous about what they think are such horrendous security issues now (because they've been around since the beginning of time or whatever and thus know ever so much more than anyone else) didn't feel any particular compunction to warn all those people that were referred there about all this. Or to those people referred to Aletia. Ot to WeinBar. Or any other company that has been mentioned in, say, the past year who also uses cPanel. Quite the dichotomy, wouldn't you say? Absolutely remarkable, and the end of this discussion for me, since it is obvious that some things never, ever change.