Reference: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/36798

Figures :D

So, if the government requests me to monitor a customer without their knowledge, and I have to oblige. Big deal. Not much difference if Customs shows up at the backdoor and wants the hard drive of a machine because someone was posting kiddie porn on their web site.

Typically, if the government needs information on a customer, you will be court ordered to provide such information. Surveillance isn't exactly taking a giant leap.

I don't agree with the court systems being largely left out of the picture, but you still have to realize that the government is tracking this person for a reason. So, let's leave the OMG GOVERNMENT PARANOIA crap for the lovers of conspiracy theories, shall we?

Saw this some time ago, seems like for the time being at least Canada is becoming the world's data-haven.

Mind you Martin's Liberals aren't that far away from the level of power an ultra-conservative government wields, pushing this kind of legislation would not be difficult up here.

Lose a little liberty here, some privacy there, it's the perfect world of robots. Oh well, so long as we're making money, eh?

-Matt

So, if the government requests me to monitor a customer without their knowledge, and I have to oblige. Big deal. Not much difference if Customs shows up at the backdoor and wants the hard drive of a machine because someone was posting kiddie porn on their web site.

Typically, if the government needs information on a customer, you will be court ordered to provide such information. Surveillance isn't exactly taking a giant leap.

I don't agree with the court systems being largely left out of the picture, but you still have to realize that the government is tracking this person for a reason. So, let's leave the OMG GOVERNMENT PARANOIA crap for the lovers of conspiracy theories, shall we?


I'd have to agree with what you had to say webworkz. Although I do think that perhaps the Patriot Act could have been worded in a better way, I don't think we're going to have to worry about Government takeover or anything of tha t sorts. While it's sad that we might have to lose some freedoms, I'd much rather lose a little freedom and maybe be safer in the long run. I don't think we care let alone have the money to monitor everything so IMHO the conspiracy theory is out.

Originally posted by CrazyTech
I'd have to agree with what you had to say webworkz. Although I do think that perhaps the Patriot Act could have been worded in a better way, I don't think we're going to have to worry about Government takeover or anything of tha t sorts. While it's sad that we might have to lose some freedoms, I'd much rather lose a little freedom and maybe be safer in the long run. I don't think we care let alone have the money to monitor everything so IMHO the conspiracy theory is out.

Yes, the Patriot is being abused considering what it was originally planned for. However, I'm willing to give up some freedom's in order to live in a safer country. I like to look at the positive side of things and that's, that there isn't people blowing themselves up every other day down at the local farmers market.

But speaking of terrorists, and guantanamo bay. The other day I was having a debate with an ACLU represenative. He was going off about how the government is horrible and such. Then the question came up about how would we feel if were locked up down in Guantanamo Bay with no contacts and such.

My reply was;

"Well, obviously I'd be a bit pissed off. However, you have to think. If the government locks up 2 people, and one of them end's up being a terrorist that could have killed 3,000 people and the other an innocent man. What's the better deal? Letting a terrorist run free killing 3,000 people. Or taking in 2 people, saving 3,000 people, but ruining one mans life? It's a shame that man's life was ruined, but you just saved 3,000. It's kind of like taking one for the team don't you think?"

The whole taking one for the team comment totally pissed him off. The entire rest of his speech entirely ridiculed my comment. I liked it though. I know I got under his skin - which was my entire goal.

I agree with you completely inogenius. I'm perfectly willing to give up a free small freedoms like that in order to make sure that life is better a whole for everyone else. People can't seem to comprehend that the Government is not some entity bent on complete domination and knowledge of everything that goes on. There are simply too many who want to believe in a conspiracy theory that doesn't exist.

This is what I have to say to you people who say giving away some freedoms isn't so bad in exchange for security:

"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
-Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

That was also said when terrorism was not a threat and in an era that is now over.

Originally posted by CrazyTech
That was also said when terrorism was not a threat and in an era that is now over.

When terrorism was not a threat, your joking right?

What do you call what the British were doing to the American people? Yes, terrorism has changed these days but it is still base on the same principles.

What most of you do not get, the amount of rights being taken will not cease. They'll keep promising more security in exchange for more rights and in the end we won't have either. Look at Israel, probably one of the most secure countries and yet terrorist attacks can be taken out daily. If someone wants to come in and kill US citizens bad enough they will succeed, we may stop some but not all. By giving up our rights we just make the terrorists win quicker because then we will not be the Free country we are. But it also seems those of you who want to give up these rights don't care much about them, how about you give up some rights that really matter to you?

By terrorism I mean the level and type of terrorism that we see today. Such as the threat of communication between these terrorist cells and alike. Back in those days we didn't have methods of communication that would allow for coordinated strikes that we have today. A coordinated attack is much much more devastating then almost anything the redcoats had during that age.

As for my freedom, this is a small freedom that I think can be given up without any loss. I'd rather give up a little freedom and stop one attack and save a few thousand lives than keep my freedom and thousands more die. Sure I will fight for my rights when I think something warrants fighting for them. However, I feel in this situation that this is something that won't harm me or others.

Originally posted by CrazyTech
By terrorism I mean the level and type of terrorism that we see today. Such as the threat of communication between these terrorist cells and alike. Back in those days we didn't have methods of communication that would allow for coordinated strikes that we have today. A coordinated attack is much much more devastating then almost anything the redcoats had during that age.

As for my freedom, this is a small freedom that I think can be given up without any loss. I'd rather give up a little freedom and stop one attack and save a few thousand lives than keep my freedom and thousands more die. Sure I will fight for my rights when I think something warrants fighting for them. However, I feel in this situation that this is something that won't harm me or others.

Though I agree with your position the way you are looking at it, you are leaving out a great part of what freedom some other U.S. visitors are having to do away with. Take the example of the law requiring all visitors from MUSLIM/ISLAMIC COUNTRIES ONLY to register themselves...do you recall any past policy in the American history so openly discriminating as this?

In addition to registering themselves, apparently if you are an illegal alian from say Mexico, you can stay without any problems(you are "chasing the American dream"). But if you are caught overstaying on a visa from say Saudi Arabia or some other ISLAMIC country, you are deported with extreme urgency(you are a "potential terrorist").

With that said, being a US citizen(and now a passport holder:), without a doubt there is little sacrifice that we have had to do personally. However, it is the picture we are drawing in the minds of people over the World that worries me...and policies such as the ones above have a great deal to do with it.

Remember, these are my thoughts and everyone is entitled to their own interpretation;)

I am surprised by some of the disturbing responses on this forum. Give up freedom for security? What makes you think that giving up freedom will make you more secure? Did you ever think that you have to give up you freedom, because incompetent people are running this country?

How can you possibly trust this government? Every single person should be paranoid(even if Jesus is your president), because we need to keep the government on their toes. What kind of message are you sending to the government when you're taking such a complaisant attitude about your freedom. People truly do take their freedoms for granted. I just wish one day people will have a chance to experience what it feels like to live under the Soviet regime. With that kind of attitude you'll love it.

The Patriot Act is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure you are aware of different other acts that take away your freedom and gives you NOTHING.

I see your point with something along that line. It's really not fair to do that to them even though that is where the identified threat is coming from at the moment. I do think that something should be done that goes across the board and treats everyone fairly.

I am surprised by some of the disturbing responses on this forum. Give up freedom for security? What makes you think that giving up freedom will make you more secure? Did you ever think that you have to give up you freedom, because incompetent people are running this country?

How can you possibly trust this government? Every single person should be paranoid(even if Jesus is your president), because we need to keep the government on their toes. What kind of message are you sending to the government when you're taking such a complaisant attitude about your freedom. People truly do take their freedoms for granted. I just wish one day people will have a chance to experience what it feels like to live under the
Soviet regime. With that kind of attitude you'll love it.

The Patriot Act is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure you are aware of different other acts that take away your freedom and gives you NOTHING.


First off, please don't refer to the Soviet regime being anything like our government at the moment. I happen to study history often and I am well aware of world events. There is a big difference between giving up one very small freedom and becoming a communist country. I think you should read up a bit more if you think otherwise. I'd rather save a few lives then kill some more.

I've frankly had enough of these conspiracy theories where the government is out to get you and take control of everything. If you think that that way, that's your choice, but no mine. I'll leave that to the writers in Hollywood.

By the way, I'm done with this thread, it's already getting out of hand and IMHO a bit illogical. I'm not much of one for conspiracy theories.

Hmm lets see:
*Welfare: You take from me and give to others
*Socialized Medicine: Not in practice yet but I think we'll see it in the future.
*Slow Ban of Guns: Hitler did this so his citizens couldn't fight back.
*Government can now do wire taps and searches without a warrant: I wonder if the government took notes from the KGB.
*President can now declare you a terrorist and you can be held indefinantly.
*Richer are getting richer and poorer are getting poorer: the gap is growing.
*Government is now bailing out corporations: airlines
*Government has guidlines for their air industry: where the heck does the government get off thinking it gets to tell an airline where it has to fly
*Government embargo of Cuba: Who do they think they are telling me I can't spend my money in Cuba.
*Government gets to seize property in drug cases and sell it for a profit: wow the government can now seize your property, thats always good.
*Politicans break laws/are bribed/steal/and committ treason against the US and they aren't brought to justice: kind of like the rich in Russia.
*Political opponents to the current "President" are punished: mainly by leaking information like your wife is a CIA Agent.


Nope your right, I don't see any Communist/Socialist values in there.

I am surprised by some of the disturbing responses on this forum. Give up freedom for security? What makes you think that giving up freedom will make you more secure? Did you ever think that you have to give up you freedom, because incompetent people are running this country?

How can you possibly trust this government? Every single person should be paranoid(even if Jesus is your president), because we need to keep the government on their toes. What kind of message are you sending to the government when you're taking such a complaisant attitude about your freedom. People truly do take their freedoms for granted. I just wish one day people will have a chance to experience what it feels like to live under the Soviet regime. With that kind of attitude you'll love it.

The Patriot Act is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure you are aware of different other acts that take away your freedom and gives you NOTHING.


Amen. Either they are avid republicans or have no caring of the sacrifices made by millions of Americans to preserve America's liberty because they believed in those freedoms. Our founding fathers and American soldiers who died protecting this country would be rolling in their graves right now.

Remember what happened to Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor? They were evicted from their homes and sent to concentration camps only because the government felt they had the power to override the constitution over the fear of potential terrorists. How history repeats itself. You'll say "we haven't rounded up every Muslim in America and held them against their will". That's true. But there are in fact suspected citizens that have been held prisoner against their will since 9/11 without so much as a fair trial.

There were an awful lot of dictatorships and communist governments where their citizens had to live in fear of them. America is heading straight down that path with fascist ideas.

Either they are avid republicans or have no caring of the sacrifices made by millions of Americans to preserve America's liberty because they believed in those freedoms.


I know that I said I was not coming back to this, but statements just like that are why this board doesn't get along. I'm not even going to bother myself with typing out my thoughts on that one, it speaks for itself.

I know that I said I was not coming back to this, but statements just like that are why this board doesn't get along. I'm not even going to bother myself with typing out my thoughts on that one, it speaks for itself.


OK, fair enough. I went overboard when typing that and withdraw the you-know-what portion of that statement. But I still stand that the Patriot Act is in complete contrary to what soldiers fought for protecting in the Revolutionary War, WWI, and WWII. Some of the same principles in that act are reasons we fought to defend against.

Originally posted by CrazyTech
I know that I said I was not coming back to this, but statements just like that are why this board doesn't get along. I'm not even going to bother myself with typing out my thoughts on that one, it speaks for itself.


So why did you bother to reply?

For one because I wanted to point out it was just a little too much and number two I cared enough about it to.

No problem Q_Max, I just thought it was a little too far. I understand your feelings but I simply see it as something where we're giving up a little bit for some safety. I don't like these comparisons to a communist country because we still can sit here and talk about these policies without worry. I think it's a small price to pay because we are up high on a few terrorism lists at the moment. I simply want everything that can be done to be done in order to help save this country from another 9/11. To me, while this policy may be a bit 'loosey goosey' in terms of its wording, I feel it's only to protect the country not make the government an all-powerful enitity.

Originally posted by dk2
This is what I have to say to you people who say giving away some freedoms isn't so bad in exchange for security:

"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
-Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

I agree completely. This administation amazes me with what it does and gets away with. Thank God we still have a few sane judges left. For now.

im with dk2 and castaway...
If you keep giving slowly small liberties like these, you will then end up without no freedom at all. Just for securities.

Face it, some of these "conspiracy" theories are true. The government right now is looking for money. I really doubt any of them would care if one of us died and it was there fault.

PATRIOT Act = End of the constitution