If there is anyone out there who uses Paysystems (Revecom) or is thinking of doing so then you may be interested in this.

I have used Paysystems for some time and never had a problem with them but 2 days ago I found a problem which is rather worrying.

We signed up a new client who paid via Paysystems and everything went ok. We provided the client with an ongoing service but noticed almost by accident that the amount in our Paysystems account was £95 light. On searching around the Paysystems management console we found that the £95 was listed as a 'Refund' although we knew nothing about it.

Emailing Paysystems as to why this was refunded resulted in no reply.

We emailed the client who admited they put through a refund request direct to Paysystems.

On looking we found a almost hidden part of the Paysystems web site that is especially for clients who have used Paysystems to make their payment. Part of this is a 'Refund' button.

Apparantly, the client just needs to go to this part of the Paysystems site, click refund, enter details they used to make the original payment and .... hey presto the money is automatically refunded - no notice to the merchant, nothing!

There is even a 'very helpful' FAQ section which tells clients they can request a refund at any time up to 6 MONTHS after making the payment.

I repeat as a Paysystems merchant you have no input into the refund request - in fact you have no idea it has happened.

Just think about this for one moment. It means that anyone and everyone you have provided service to for the last 6 months can get an immediate refund of everything they have paid you and you won't even be aware of it until you find your account balance depleted.

This is NOT a charge back request where the client has gone to their bank to request a refund and you have an opportunity to respond (yes I know it is often useless doing so) but an almost instant refund - no questions asked. There is NO check made by Paysystems at all that the refund is valid or for valid reasons, etc and to repeat myself Paysystems don't even tell you it has happened.

So in our case, we had a sign up, payment went through on a recurring billing, we provided the service, a refund was given but because we were unaware of it we continued to provide a service to I guess a very 'grateful client.

If you want to check this out for yourselves, then please follow this link - https://cardholder.paysystems.com/index.pay and have a careful look. This is what your clients see after they have made a payment

This situation has made me think very seriously about Paysystems as a valid payment solution provider. After all I work hard to try and make money not to build up a potential 6 months liability - just think if all the payments you have received over the last 6 months were refunded instantly and without your knowledge!!

If you have used Paysystems to make your payment it is indeed refreshing to know you can instantly get all your money back up to 6 months later - hey the business you bought from is even unaware of it. So you will still be provided a service for which you are not paying. Looks to me like a charter for free shopping for all but the most honest clients.

If you are considering Paysystems as your credit card processing solution then think carefully.

Yours

Kevin

Wow, this is very interesting. Did paysystems just put this in?

-steve

That is very disturbing. Think about server rental companies that process payments with them. The person can just request a refund from paysystems for 6 months of used service.

Well then I think its time to bring this to paysystems attention before a riot breaks out. "Waits for other hosts to complain now the users know" I am glad I went auth.net rather then paysystems. hmm, what a choice!

did you try contacting them about it?

http://www.paysystems.com/contactMSupport.asp

actually calling them would probably work best
Corporate Office
Toll-free. (866) 729-7978

Originally posted by kjedwards
. . . On looking we found a almost hidden part of the Paysystems web site that is especially for clients who have used Paysystems to make their payment. Part of this is a 'Refund' button.

Apparantly, the client just needs to go to this part of the Paysystems site, click refund, enter details they used to make the original payment and .... hey presto the money is automatically refunded - no notice to the merchant, nothing! . . .
You're referring to the MyPaysystems.com site. It's hardly hidden and also allows clients to update their contact and cc info etc [well, at the moment that part is a bit hairy, but it's supposed to allow them to update cc details etc]

Yes, this does put a big stick into your client's hands and some hosts tremble at the thought of their clients having that power with their credit card payment. We've processed around 10,000 transactions through Paysystems and can count the number of times on both hands that a client has requested a refund through that interface.

Happened to me a few times as well. One client just cancelled their recurring billing through MyPaySystems. Another requests a refund while still using our service. Annoys the heck out of me. I get no notice of it whatsoever.

Wish they would do something about this. :rolleyes:

Well, PaySystems has 100+ employees... sounds like they just need to get one of them to spend an hour or two and have a nice little email notification system added in to rectify this particular problem. :)

Paysystems should implement a 15 day money back for services.
Rather then anytime.

... and this is why i love accepting checks and wires.

paul

Yeah, you have full control. No charging back there. (At least I don't believe)

Originally posted by kjedwards
This is NOT a charge back request where the client has gone to their bank to request a refund and you have an opportunity to respond (yes I know it is often useless doing so) but an almost instant refund - no questions asked. There is NO check made by Paysystems at all that the refund is valid or for valid reasons, etc and to repeat myself Paysystems don't even tell you it has happened.

You only need to keep repeating that part because Paysystems can't maintain their mail system. Normally (in a perfect world) you would know about orders, recurring payments, declines and refunds/chargebacks when they happen.

Speak to your bank and get a proper merchant account. :)

Gary

Watch the WHT banners, they advertise e-online alot ;)

I was looking at exactly this today. I've recently paid somebody via PaySystems, however I use 2CO for my own payment processing. With 2CO being down for, what, 36 hours now, I went looking for a new processor.

Visiting mypaysystems.com automatically takes me to cardholder.paysystems.com/ which is the page the original poster is referring to. I noticed the "click here for a refund" button and thought, thats a bit odd, I'm happy with the people that I paid via mypaysystems.

The funny thing is, I can't even get to mypaysystems.com to look up how to become a merchant with them, cause they must have put a cookie on my machine identifying me as a customer, so it goes straight to the customer page. Being a bit stubborn, I refused to clear my cookies, and still haven't made it to mypaysystems.com and I'm still looking for a decent processor. ;)

Well, it struck me as funny anyways.

... and this is why i love accepting checks and wires. If its online checks then Paysystems allow instant refund of those as well.

This is what the Paysystems FAQ says -
Online Check Refund: You have up to 90 days from the date of purchase to request a refund. Transactions exceeding 90 days from the original date of purchase cannot be refunded.
So 3 months instead of the 6 months with credit cards but still a worry.

I just noticed that the 6 months refund period is extended up to 18 months regarding payments for 'a travel package or a timeshare'

So I guess you can book that round the world luxury cruise safe in the knowledge you can instantly refund the cost when you get back home!

Yes, this does put a big stick into your client's hands and some hosts tremble at the thought of their clients having that power with their credit card payment. We've processed around 10,000 transactions through Paysystems and can count the number of times on both hands that a client has requested a refund through that interface.
You must have very honest clients or they just don't know about it?

We have no problem with anyone seeking a refund if they are not happy, but an instant refund at any time up to 3 or 6 months without any right of reply or any notification is rediculas and the implications of this are scary.

Does anyone know if World Pay, 2CheckOut or any other processing company does this?

I am UK based and need a good reliable processor that accepts international businesses and does not encourage instant refunds

I was looking at exactly this today. I've recently paid somebody via PaySystems, however I use 2CO for my own payment processing. With 2CO being down for, what, 36 hours now, I went looking for a new processor.

Visiting mypaysystems.com automatically takes me to cardholder.paysystems.com/ which is the page the original poster is referring to. I noticed the "click here for a refund" button and thought, thats a bit odd, I'm happy with the people that I paid via mypaysystems.

The funny thing is, I can't even get to mypaysystems.com to look up how to become a merchant with them, cause they must have put a cookie on my machine identifying me as a customer, so it goes straight to the customer page. Being a bit stubborn, I refused to clear my cookies, and still haven't made it to mypaysystems.com and I'm still looking for a decent processor.

Well, it struck me as funny anyways.. If I am not mistaken on the Paysystems page where you actually enter your credit card details isn't there a large ad promoting the Paysystems processing service?

Try www.paysystems.com or www.revecom.com

I wonder how many scammers and spammers are reading this right now and making list of host using paysystems?

Originally posted by Techark
I wonder how many scammers and spammers are reading this right now and making list of host using paysystems?
Yep, that element will give you problems no matter how you processed ccs. Banks in aussie pretty well suck, so I can't see any additional protection in dealing with a chargeback with the bank. Some would argue there is more protection, some would argue there's not. :eek3:

We're still more than happy with Paysystems and have no inklings to get a merchant account. After 2 years and 10,000 transactions later, I'm probably too settled to change. bah. :o

Originally posted by Reddrake
Watch the WHT banners, they advertise e-online alot ;)
paysystems?

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
Yep, that element will give you problems no matter how you processed ccs. Banks in aussie pretty well suck, so I can't see any additional protection in dealing with a chargeback with the bank. Some would argue there is more protection, some would argue there's not. :eek3:

We're still more than happy with Paysystems and have no inklings to get a merchant account. After 2 years and 10,000 transactions later, I'm probably too settled to change. bah. :o

Not true.

A mercahnt account does allow you to dispute a chargeback. If what the poster is saying is true it is not a chargeback it is an instant refund. BIG diff.

I can see it now spamer signs up abuses the hell out of your system gets caught you terminate he goes to paysystems pushs the refund button walks away with out having to pay anything.
If that is true paysystems is not a suitable system for hosting.

Has nothing to do with legit customers they are not going to use it but once word gets around about this instant refund for 6 months host using paysystem are going to be tragets.

Will be insteresting to see. .

Originally posted by Techark
Not true.

A mercahnt account does allow you to dispute a chargeback. If what the poster is saying is true it is not a chargeback it is an instant refund. BIG diff.

It certainly does. On two occasions the ST George have tentatively put through a chargeback against us, pending investigation.

On one it was a mistake on the client's part, and on the other it was a wrongful chargeback and was dismissed (FTP logs to demonstrate use of the account was all they needed to see).

With Amex coming there's even more protection there, as they pretty much guarantee no chargebacks. If there is one, they investigate it themselves.

Every chargeback that Paysystems put through would surely be digging them a deeper hole with the card companies. If they don't put some proper processes in to place to protect themselves and their clients/merchants, it wouldn't surprise me to see them go the same way as Hostcharge.

Aussie banks are terrific when it comes to looking after their merchants. We can get funds tentatively allocated to us by phoning through and getting an authorisation on the spot, and know that they'll listen if there's ever a dispute.

Gary.

Originally posted by Techark
. . . I can see it now spamer signs up abuses the hell out of your system gets caught you terminate he goes to paysystems pushs the refund button walks away with out having to pay anything. If that is true paysystems is not a suitable system for hosting.
I can only go by 2 years of experience and around 10,000 transactions through Paysystems. Working very well so far and right now, there's just no need to fill out those Merchant account forms sitting on the desk. Suppose I'll get around to it one day though. I'll miss the automated recurrings though. They've been working like a treat for ages now. heh. :)

i almost signed up for this crap

will get modernautorize.net when ill make second company for adult sites

autorize is not allowing adult hosting. and ill use 2checkout for this :)

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
I can only go by 2 years of experience and around 10,000 transactions through Paysystems. Working very well so far and right now, there's just no need to fill out those Merchant account forms sitting on the desk. Suppose I'll get around to it one day though. I'll miss the automated recurrings though. They've been working like a treat for ages now. heh. :)

That was before someone posted the 6 months get a refund for free link on WHT.

Merchant accounts are not that bad in OZ. With my internet MIGS system Commonwealth came to my place and filled out all the paper work for me and had it alll set up in 2 days.
Plus they just lowered the % rate by 1/2 a point.

Now we are looking for a good one in the US.

WTF, this is unacceptable. I didn't know this when I signed up with Paysystems recently, I searched thru so many posts on WHT and decided on Paysystems over 2CO

Its like an unholy alliance of Spammers & Scammers...Unconditional Refunds. Even without a notification, its equally bad. How did the policy makers decide on Undisputed Refunds...I mean client can host a site for 6 months and just walk to another Host using Paysystems.

Motto being...change host only 2 times a year to get absolutely free hosting. It beats the 1and1 offer also :eek:

Now, I gotta sit down and start looking and waste more money most likely to find an alternative.

Originally posted by Credanco
That is very disturbing. Think about server rental companies that process payments with them. The person can just request a refund from paysystems for 6 months of used service.
This is noticed in the contract of PaySystems.
By international law, *all* payments (not with PaySystems only, but worldwide independent what you buy online) made by a credit card is able to refund within 6 month.
This can't be restricted. And so you always have had that risk if you accept CCs.
This is not new. PaySystems says is more clear than other, but all do the same.
If you don't want such, don't accept CCs except by email payment systems as PayPal or Moneybookers.com.

Originally posted by kjedwards
If its online checks then Paysystems allow instant refund of those as well.

no, its paper checks. you know, the ones businesses use? =]

paul

Originally posted by Drefels
This is noticed in the contract of PaySystems.
By international law, *all* payments (not with PaySystems only, but worldwide independent what you buy online) made by a credit card is able to refund within 6 month.
This can't be restricted. And so you always have had that risk if you accept CCs.
This is not new. PaySystems says is more clear than other, but all do the same.
If you don't want such, don't accept CCs except by email payment systems as PayPal or Moneybookers.com.

Do you know how old this law is? I can't see it being very recent, since with recent technology, you could scam your way through quite a lot..

Originally posted by Drefels
This is noticed in the contract of PaySystems.
By international law, *all* payments (not with PaySystems only, but worldwide independent what you buy online) made by a credit card is able to refund within 6 month.
This can't be restricted. And so you always have had that risk if you accept CCs.
This is not new. PaySystems says is more clear than other, but all do the same.
If you don't want such, don't accept CCs except by email payment systems as PayPal or Moneybookers.com.

The refund shouldn't be made that easy to access...
it should be that the person wanting the refund needs to let the merchant and paysytems know about it before allowing the refund.

This is really bad for all of us... I don't think 2CO has this feature, does it?

How hard is it for you people to check your paysystems account a few times a month to see if anyone submitted a refund?

We've been with Paysystems for awhile now and have had ZERO problems.

I don't think the problems would arise from your average clients. As some pointed out I think it would arise as another tool for spammers to operate without overhead. Sign up with Paysystems web host, spam until they get caught, issue themselves a refund and move onto the next paysystems host.

With 2Checkout and their DDOS problems and Paysystems with their little practices it looks more and more like there really is no substitute for online credit card transactions other than a merchant account....

That you just increased the probability of this being used against you by the advertising of the policy here.

Originally posted by Watcher_TVI

With 2Checkout and their DDOS problems and Paysystems with their little practices it looks more and more like there really is no substitute for online credit card transactions other than a merchant account....

Hey man. I am all ears. What are you doing and how are you doing it? It sounds like you know what your talking about to me.

Originally posted by Incognito
That you just increased the probability of this being used against you by the advertising of the policy here. You lost me here, what are you speaking about?

@ Centrahost

I think it's time to stop using these gateways and get a merchant account. Even though it's more costly, you have better control over what goes on with your money...

I agree, I just switched from 2CO to a merchant account a few weeks ago.

Just in time it appears.

wow... i dont even know what to say but wow!!!!....

i remember now... I want to meet the people who programmed this one.

This is really shocking .
I was planning on using paysystems to accept credit cards for registering domains and selling some software.
Thank you very much for the heads up :-)

Originally posted by Drefels
This is noticed in the contract of PaySystems.
By international law, *all* payments (not with PaySystems only, but worldwide independent what you buy online) made by a credit card is able to refund within 6 month.
This can't be restricted. And so you always have had that risk if you accept CCs.
This is not new. PaySystems says is more clear than other, but all do the same.
If you don't want such, don't accept CCs except by email payment systems as PayPal or Moneybookers.com.
Where could I find out more about this law?
I'm just interested because (IANAL) it is my understanding that for international law to be worth anything other than the paper it is written on the country has to sign on to the law (I'd like to see weather Canada has signed on) .

Originally posted by Watcher_TVI
You lost me here, what are you speaking about?

@ Centrahost

I think it's time to stop using these gateways and get a merchant account. Even though it's more costly, you have better control over what goes on with your money...

Yea, we have several plus the 3rd party's they all scare me 24/7. No matter how honest you are and how fast you are to return money, you still must factor in the lure that placing a hold on a huge sum has for some of these outfits. It's been a long time since it has happende to me but I did learn soime things. I never prorate. I never use the same house for all my transactions. I check my deposits first thing in the morning.

It sounded like you had a good check system or local bank supported ACH to me. So I though I would ask about it.

I just talked with someone from livesupport at paysystems.
He say is not true, they give me 48 hours to respond to client comments.
When I will have an official ticket, I will post it here .
You scared me, ppl :-)

Originally posted by shoperotic
He say is not true, they give me 48 hours to respond to client comments.

Yes you do, but they don't have to take any notice of what you say. :)

If the chargeback is initiated through the client's bank, Paysystems don't get any say in it either.

Gary

Originally posted by Plesk6Host
Yes you do, but they don't have to take any notice of what you say. :)

If the chargeback is initiated through the client's bank, Paysystems don't get any say in it either.

Gary

This is not a chargeback.

If it is as the first poster described a instant refund NOT a charge back.

Lets make sure we are talking about the same thing and if you check with paysystems make sure you are talking about the refund option and not a chargeback.

Lets make sure we are talking about the same thing and if you check with paysystems make sure you are talking about the refund option and not a chargeback.
Yes, it was about refund, instant refund, not about charge back, and he told he didn't make this without 48 hours notice .
I can't save the conversation, they have an annoying Java applet:)

Originally posted by Techark
This is not a chargeback.

If it is as the first poster described a instant refund NOT a charge back.

Lets make sure we are talking about the same thing and if you check with paysystems make sure you are talking about the refund option and not a chargeback.

That's right. It's no different than Paypal or any other third party processor. The card holder can approach them for a refund, or the card holder can initiate a chargeback through their bank. I've never known Paysystems to not give a refund (though in the case where physical products/delivery or a hand signed order are concerned, possibly they do - I don't know). In the case of a chargeback (which is almost certainly going to follow a refund request), what option do they have if the card holder denies ever having received a product/service?

The original poster says it's instant. I don't believe it is. You do get 48 hours to reply to "Client Comments"...it just depends on Paysystems getting the email notice out to you. :)

But you have far less chance of success than you do with proper merchant facility and a bank (Paysystems have their own bank(s) to answer to).

Gary

damn java applets :)

Originally posted by Techark
This is not a chargeback.

If it is as the first poster described a instant refund NOT a charge back.

Lets make sure we are talking about the same thing and if you check with paysystems make sure you are talking about the refund option and not a chargeback.
The refund option has always been there. I don't know how instant the refund is, or what recource the merchant has in regards to a refund. I seriously doubt it's an automated and instant refund, with no human involvement.

None of our clients has ever used it. At the end of the day, all we have is our experience. Ours has been positive [10,000 transactions and 5 chargebacks], and others have had less then positive experiences.

Although no doubt we'll head down the merchant account path [got all the forms on the desk], just for the lower fees and customisation and control etc. Just have to build a system of manual tracking and processing recurrings etc.

Originally posted by Alfa
The refund shouldn't be made that easy to access...
that is another discussion.
Fact is, even if they wouldn't have such, you simply need to make a call to your bank when you get the debit and tell "recal it" and you have to get back the debited amount at once.
worldwide.

THIS the problem is, and it is for any CC and in any country. It's not a PaySystems made problem.

(Payments by CC are NOT cash money but a credit for 6 month.)

Originally posted by shoperotic
I just talked with someone from livesupport at paysystems.
He say is not true, they give me 48 hours to respond to client comments.
When I will have an official ticket, I will post it here .
You scared me, ppl :-)

We never received any notice or any right of reply to the refund.

Paysystems also did not respond to the support ticket we submitted regarding the refund.

There are NO clients comments listed when we log in to the Paysystems control centre

I think what they say and what they do are totally different.

Support tickets haven't had a clear response in a very long time. However we still use them after over three years and don't have a lot of issues with them. The 'disappearence' of the deleted recurring transaction notices is a *serious* problem as far as I'm concerned however. 4 weeks ago live support said it would be 'fixed tomorrow', but it's wasn't. That guy from Paysystems who posts here said "I'll pass that on to my manager", but I guess he didn't, as it's still broken.

In short, the system is 'ok' and they pay on time, most of the time. But they really need to slap their 'IT' guys hard to fix the bugs that keep popping up.

Originally posted by akashik
. . . The 'disappearence' of the deleted recurring transaction notices is a *serious* problem as far as I'm concerned however . . .
Yes, that bug forced us to manually track every recurring transaction and watch the ones that fall off the recurring database. It's only 30 recurrings per day, so it's not that time consuming. We're heaps better for it and we'll incorporate this same system to manually processing recurring transactions through a merchant account.

I second akashik. For the refunds, the client submits the request however you get a notification in the comments section by one of the Paysystems sales reps that a client wants a refund. You can then confirm that you have refunded or provide them the info such as your terms of service or the client order details etc. and ask them not to grant them the refund.

I am MORE WORRIED about the recurring option which can easily be removed without your knowledge. It gets placed in the deleted transactions section of the merchant panel however with over 200 transactions there, it is not very possible to find which transaction is cancelled because it does not sort it according to the time it was cancelled but when it was signed up. And you get no notification whatsoever. We have contacted them many times about these and I suggest all other Paysystems' merchants to do the same and once they are sick of hearing about it, they would probably do something to fix it... :)

Bob, this is off topic, but how do you plan to build that tracking system? Can't software like ModernBill do the job?

Originally posted by sanjiv
Bob, this is off topic, but how do you plan to build that tracking system? Can't software like ModernBill do the job?
We already track each recurring transaction, so it's just a matter of us processing a manual transaction from a merchant interface, for the recurrings. I don't trust any automated system to process recurrings and I like to do as much things manually, if possible. :)

I agree with Bob's process. Since we switched to a merchant account, we process all of the recurrings manually so that we have an accurate tracking of processed charges and any fails that may occur..

Has there been an update on this that anyone can comment on? Has Paysystem's improved their refund process?

Im not sure, and im wondering about it, but as they say, it is a valid option and will probably stay there.

There is even a 'very helpful' FAQ section which tells clients they can request a refund at any time up to 6 MONTHS after making the payment.


this sounds complete strange from such a popular payment gateway.I never signed with them coz i always heard such things about them specially once they posted on webhosting.info forums about new free membership and later on people realize that they were deducted charges of joining the programme which was promised to be free.

Paysystems often do this.Once i applied for them too luckily i was rejected.i dont know why they never sent me any email regarding it.Anyway i was safe not be choosen by them.

Just received by post two large enveloped from PaySystems. It seems you now have to agree new terms and both fax and mail back to them new signed agreements.

A couple of positives though -

1. You will now be able to have your company name on the PaySystems checkout page - hopefully without the PaySystems adverts.

2. Your own company name will appear on customers CC statements instead of PaySystems - so customers should remember what the payments were for.

Good news, but the faxing page after pay of their agreement and then mailing it as well is a bit over the top.