this might seem like an odd request, but were working with a client right now, on a site project that involves frames. However he is dead against frames based on search engine ranks. He's under the idea that if we use frames, it will kill any chance he has with search engines.

Can anyone provide links to some very popular sites that use frames in the layout (even as simple as iframes, any frames at all)

We didnt think it would be hard to find, however my team is having a hard time to find that many high traffic sites with frames.

any ideas?

Couldn't the site be done with no frames? Our transit site used frames at one time, but I ditched them a long time ago which helped the search engines...

it can be done without, but the issue is, that we would rather use them in the design, to cut back on design time and overall costs.

stay away from frames like you would from hell

1) Kill search engine ranks
2) Look horribly unprofessional and amateur (at least in my eyes)

<div style="width: 100px; height: 100px; overflow: scrolling;">
<?php
$id = empty($id) ? 'def.txt' : $id.'.txt';
if(file_exists($id))
{
include $id;
}
else
{
echo "Error! The file $id could not be included!";
}
?>
</div>

Alright, now tell me that's worth hundreds of dollars of development cost?

Originally posted by DanX

<div style="width: 100px; height: 100px; overflow: scrolling;">
<?php
$id = empty($id) ? 'def.txt' : $id.'.txt';
if(file_exists($id))
{
include $id;
}
else
{
echo "Error! The file $id could not be included!";
}
?>
</div>

Alright, now tell me that's worth hundreds of dollars of development cost?


a few things I would fix up in that piece of code to optimize it, but it gets the job done. Im picky when it comes to code optimization. :)

cMark: Considering it was done in about 30 seconds, what can you expect? :P If you have any comments on the PHP part of the code I'd be glad to hear them, though.

Originally posted by flamesburn
He's under the idea that if we use frames, it will kill any chance he has with search engines. That's probably overstating it. But it is true that the use of frames will present obstacles to good search engine positioning. Whether those obstacles can be overcome depends on your approach, and the level of competition in your market -- but if you're using frames you don't have the most well-optimized site that you could have.

Someone who thinks that using frames make no difference at all in that area has an incomplete understanding of the elements important in SEO today.We didnt think it would be hard to find, however my team is having a hard time to find that many high traffic sites with frames. Maybe that should tell you something. ;)

Not too much to edit, but its a bit more optimized now. :P


<div style="width: 100px; height: 100px; overflow: scrolling;">
<?php
$id = empty($id) ? 'def.txt' : $id.'.txt';
if(file_exists($id)) {
include $id;
} else {
echo 'Error! The file ' . $id . ' could not be included!';
}
?>
</div>

the main reason you do not have many sites using frames is because most of the sites are template based, though I see no reason why even with templates you could not have frames

people don't understand frames nor they understand search engines! some don't even understand internet

if you want a search engine to look up your docs, there is no obstacle why it could not look up a frameset doc, it can contain meta tags just like any other document, because as I see it, we basically discuss meta stuff

if anybody can give a valid reason why frames are no good for search engines let me know, thanks

Airnine

If you add links and proper content (a combination of your menu and your main-content pages) to the noframes tag, most search engines have no problem what so ever.

The only main problem is to put the content back into the proper frameset. You can add a link back to the frameset, and let the visitor find the page again, or use a script to place it in it's context right away. Javascript is easier, but I have done some PHP scripting that gives the same effect.

Now... I prefer frames to iframes, because frames are better supported than iframes. You can of course also use hidden layers, but then bookmarking is useless, and search engines can find the page, but not properly show it.

Dynamic includes is very useful weither or not you use frames.

The main problem with frames aren't the frames, it's how people code them and use them. I'm looking forward to xframes in the next xhtml standard. That will give frames a new outlook in useage.

I am more than glad to see not everybody is against frames and

once again it is obvious the problem is with people who are unable to use the technology properly and not with the technology

go frames go

Airnine

P.S.: I first started using frames to downsize the traffic from my server and optimize the download speed of my pages, it worked like a charm, furthermore, today I make flash and gif animated buttons that make big packs of data and it would be fairly unwise of me to let those buttons be downloaded 1000 times and not only 10 times; perhaps the difference is not 100 times, but it goes up to 50, of that I am sure

I started using frames so the menu buttons didn't need to be downloaded over and over again. When Internet was slower in general than it is today, I thought it would keep the visitor at the site if the menu, etc. was still visible. I still feel that way, even if I've speeded up my designs. With flash headers and menues, it's even more important that the content that is always the same isn't downloaded whenever a new page is loaded. It turns me off to have to sit and watch the same flash being downloaded on every single page. Cashing doesn't always work.

I have a good internet connection as a surfer and so does my server, I do not have trouble with bandwith, but imagine, if all the designers and developers took care of the stuff they were putting online and a bit of care how content is transfered to clients. I trust we could ease the traffic considerably. People do not think about it, still it would cost nothing...

heh - don't use frames, there is absolutly no reason to. Images get cached, so no they don't need to be downloaded every page view.

You're right, they will pretty much destry your search engine optimization techniques. And the reason why the 'big' sites don't use them is because they are horrible, no one likes frames, they are confusing, do annoying things to peoples browsers and there is absolutly no reason to use them. :)

Anyone who uses them all the time must be living back in 1996, the internet has since moved on, they are horrible for accessability, and a myriad of other resons NOT to use them. :)

Frames are the spawn of satan. Avoid like the plague.

tell me something guys?

do you use iframes?

if yes, why?

besides I hate a mile long page that after I read something in the midsection, I have to scroll up or down for a half an hour to get to the navigation

nevertheless, for those living in the free world, it's a matter of choice

Originally posted by airnine
tell me something guys?

do you use iframes?

if yes, why?

besides I hate a mile long page that after I read something in the midsection, I have to scroll up or down for a half an hour to get to the navigation

iframes are also annoying, the same effect can be performed with <divs> you can also have a 'floating' navigation that follows the page down using only CSS if you really want the navigation on the side at all times. Personally I don't find it an issue as long as there is a return to top button or something similar. Navigation within the footer and smart information design also means usually there is no need to scroll for "half an hour".

I see no use for frames, you can keep the menu and navigation, ads, etc, always loaded using a php swap id script, I frames are a big no no for sites your being paid to do, alot of old browsers dont support them, and not everyone keeps there browser up to date. you can get the frame effect you are talking about using php, fairly easily as well.

emzec - I've been looking into PHP swap menues, and they work great if the navigation is on top of the page. So far I haven't found one that works really well when the navigation is to the left or right. Everything below the switch point is reloaded with the new (or old) content.

Some images are cached by browsers, but not all. And if there is flash on the page, it reloads even if it's partly cashed, and I find that annoying. Maybe it's an error in the flash coding, but still...

As long as all broswers don't follow the standards correctly, I wills tick with techniques I know work in almost the same way in all browsers. It's a matter of usability as well as good looks.

http://entensity.net has a good tutorial for swap id's, the actualy site uses the same structure thats in the tut

Nice link emzec, but the tutorial Navigation 1, clearly shows what I mean with navigation being re-loaded when it's to the left or right. It's one thing if it's plain text links and wery low graphics for the pages being loaded, but... if it isn't...

Im sure you could tweak it to your likings heh
and the guy who runs that site posts here not sure what
his username is tho.

anywho if you need help setting it up I recently used that style for a site i did and could help ya out

Thanks for the offer, emzec, but the reload part when the menu is below the "swap-point" will never be solved as far as I know. It has to do with how pages are loaded into the browser window. It is always loaded from top to bottom, never sideways. Give me a browser that can do that :D and I'll use it.

BTW... I'm pretty good at tweaking PHP myself. At the moment I'm designing a new shopping cart. :D

nice could you give me some details on the cart? Im wanting to make one for a project im working on

Originally posted by cMark
Not too much to edit, but its a bit more optimized now. :P


<div style="width: 100px; height: 100px; overflow: scrolling;">
<?php
$id = empty($id) ? 'def.txt' : $id.'.txt';
if(file_exists($id)) {
include $id;
} else {
echo 'Error! The file ' . $id . ' could not be included!';
}
?>
</div>


Ah yes. I like brackets my style, oddly enough, and the quoting was due to the fact that I was typing this out in a tiny form box. ;)

Originally posted by flamesburn
However he is dead against frames based on search engine ranks. He's under the idea that if we use frames, it will kill any chance he has with search engines.He is correct.

emzec - the base is from the book "PHP and MySQL Web Developement" 2nd ed. The code written in the book had errors, so I had to copy from the CD. I then added an integration with worldpay, as well as the Swedish system of paying when you get your package from the post office. I also added an invoice generator and some other bits and pieces.

If you go over to Sitepointforum and search on reptilianfeline and look for PHP threads, you can get quite a lot of my code that way. Then just ask me about things that aren't clear :)

Originally posted by cMark
Not too much to edit, but its a bit more optimized now. :P


<div style="width: 100px; height: 100px; overflow: scrolling;">
<?php
$id = empty($id) ? 'def.txt' : $id.'.txt';
if(file_exists($id)) {
include $id;
} else {
echo 'Error! The file ' . $id . ' could not be included!';
}
?>
</div>


I'd also use $_GET['id'] instead of $id

However I'd properly template it as then you don't need frames 'to save time' as templating it will save huge amounts of time when you need to changing things.

it's not the question of a browser, but to some extent you could have your content loaded in any direction, it would require a few more lines of code, but it can be done, to some extent I said

nevertheless, frames are ok, if you know how to use them, but most people don't…

Airnine

the point of a let's say navigation frame is that it stays on the computer and the screen of a user, I don't see how using php, which is a server thing, can replace this, once again, the plus of frames like nav frames is reduction of traffic

nevertheless, flash is supposed to get loaded every time, hence streaming, I don't think a clip has an inbuilt identification saying; "I'm a button, please cache me and please don't download me every time, thank you"

though, maybe we'll get that as well in future editions

Airnine