Im wondering who would be ready to go to war.

I for one, although Canadian, am ready to fight.

Anybody else thought about this?

I'm Australian, and I will join too!!
as long as I know we are fighting the right enermy.....
:)

No.

Violence begets violence. Hate begets hate. War begets war. And revenge, however satifying, does not bring people back to life.

Go off and kill or die if you must. But I, for one, shall not join you.

what do you suggest we do then?
Sit back, Do Nothing, and hope it does not happen again?

:bawling:

Been there, done that. Problem here is there is no clearly defined target. Very different from Pearl Harbor in that respect. Unfortunately my sig fits today in my view. My deepest sympathies to everyone who lost someone special today...

Originally posted by cperciva
No.

Violence begets violence. Hate begets hate. War begets war. And revenge, however satifying, does not bring people back to life.

Go off and kill or die if you must. But I, for one, shall not join you.

I Strongly Agree.

then you can also answer my question please?

Originally posted by RunOfTheMill
what do you suggest we do then?
Sit back, Do Nothing, and hope it does not happen again?

No. Non-violence does not mean non-action. Several mechanisms have already been pointed out which could have stopped the attacks from taking place: Improved security could have stopped hijackers from taking control of the plane, electronic countermeasures could be put in place to allow hijacked planes to be disabled by ground controllers, and -- perhaps most importantly -- in the future when someone attempts to hijack a plane the passengers are far more likely to put up a fight. The attacks today only succeeded because they took everyone by surprise; they would not succeed next week, next month, or fifty years from now.

As for the general question of combatting terrorism, I must ask what causes terrorist attacks. People do not throw their lives away for no reason: Terrorist attacks only occur when people feel wronged by a force which is militarily far superior to themselves. Take away the perceived wrong, and terrorism ceases.

Compare the US and Canada. The US is militarily far superior, has far more extensive intelligence agencies... yet Canadians walk freely in places that no American would ever dare to tread. The US, by virtue of its overwhelming military might, has the power to practically destroy any other nation on earth, and by exercising that power they have made enemies of many nations around the world. Inevitably all the military power in the world does not help, and we have seen that today.

You can hold a sword in both hands, but to do so you must drop your shield: The best defense is not possessing a good offence, but rather being inoffensive.

PS to earlier post: I hope everyone with a good dictionary will look up "Wergild", and understand the reason why the practice was instituted throughout much of northern Europe for many centuries. It is very much applicable to situations we see today around the world.

Right here, right now. No questions asked.

cperciva, there is a lot more then what you wrote. A heck of a lot more. These terrorist are "inovative". Next time it won't be a hijacked plane. It could be a WMD loaded to a small plane and flown into a city. It could be anything. Also, the current world powers are not going to change for a few crazy, over-zelios, fundamentaist.

So what next? We no longer 'react', we 'Act'. Hit them hard. I haven't heard much from General Qaddafi, have you? When Reagan sent him and his family a present, he went into hiding like all cowards do.

Actually if you remember Bush quoted from Psalms in his press release. If he is a true believer, then he must believe in "do good for evil" not "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" like the muslims believe in.

"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" like the muslims believe in.

I do not think all Muslims believe this. I also know it is only a few handful who support terrorism. If this were not true, then the US, UK, Australia, etc.. wouldn't have 100,000's living in those countries. I don't see the opposite, 100,000's Americans for example moving to the Middle East to improve their standard of living.

Originally posted by Hostexp
Actually if you remember Bush quoted from Psalms in his press release. If he is a true believer, then he must believe in "do good for evil" not "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" like the muslims believe in.

I think you're confusing Islam with Judaism, at least as far as the religious texts go. "An eye for an eye" is the fundamental story of the Old Testament, just as "turn the other cheek" is of the New. Islam, however, accepts both the Old and New Testaments, in addition to their own texts, just as Christianity accepts the Old Testament in addition to the New. Consequently the 'teachings of Jesus' are at least theoretically an integral part of Islam.

I leave it to the reader to decide whether any of the religions herein mentioned are still practiced authentically.

Originally posted by Hostexp
Actually if you remember Bush quoted from Psalms in his press release. If he is a true believer, then he must believe in "do good for evil" not "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" like the muslims believe in.

But even Jesus him SELF attacked the people that were gambling in the temples...

Im ready to fight right NOW! I saw this crap today and was stunned...saying to myself "This is AMERICA...this is MY country...who the F*** do these people think they are?" They are nothing but barbaric, idiotic, towel wearing opportunists who wouldn't fight you straight up for anything. These people come to this country, kill THOUSANDS of INNOCENT people and all some of you can say is "Violence never solves anything" "Violence isnt the answer"...well you gotta hit em HARD and you gotta hit with the only thing that these bastards unserstand!

So to answer your question...HELL YES, I would fight em...Id fight for the HONOR of this country just like my grandfather did in WWII...just like my dad did in VietNam...

OUR country was attacked...it was a pure act of war and we cant sit Idly by while they dance in the streets in those God forsaken 3rd world countries!

Cperciva, i'll try and find it in a online Koran, maybe i am wrong. Also F5, who are you ready to fight against? no one knows who commited these attrocities.

Originally posted by Hostexp
Actually if you remember Bush quoted from Psalms in his press release.

Here's something else to consider: Yes, he quoted from the Bible, but he quoted from the Old Testament, not the New. See above for the relevance of that detail.

to the people saying we dont know who did it yet.

You are completely right.
However, when we do find out, there will be repercussions, very possibly war.
Although we dont know who yet, who is ready to fight for their country.

Thats what we are saying here.

Hostexp...you know as well as I do who committed this act of cowardice...

""There are good indications that persons linked to Osama bin Laden may be responsible for these attacks," an intelligence official told CNN.

Intelligence sources said they based their assessment on new information they had gathered Tuesday afternoon, hours after airplanes slammed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. They did not rule out the possibility that other groups may have been involved." - Straight from CNN.COM ( http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/investigation.terrorism/ )

Afghanistan, brother...and take Iraq with them...Saddam was cheering the effort of these bastards today...we should have taken his a** out when we had the chance!

Yes i agree with you, the Iraqi government should of been taken out in the gulf war, but Bush wanted cheap oil from the other gulf countries. However, checkout www.aliraqi.com the views from the iraqi people are definetly different.

.

?
Originally posted by RunOfTheMill
.

However, checkout www.aliraqi.com the views from the iraqi people are definetly different

Of course they are. They still live in brain washed world. They still live a in a world where they were handed their asses when they invaded Kuwait. I guess I would have a different point of view too if I were a weak minded fool who has been brain washed by my government. I am glad I have th efreedom to read anything I want and base opinions off open source.

Originally posted by Hostexp
?


Sorry, Posted in reply to the wrong thread.
:blush:

Hostexp: Take a look at 42.37 - 42.43. Very loosely translated:

42.37: Those who, when angered, forgive, are Good People.
42.38: Ditto for those who pray lots.
42.39: Ditto for those who defend themselves against great wrong.
42.40: But whoever forgives and makes amends shall be rewarded by Allah.
42.41: You can't blame people for defending themselves
42.42: You can only blame people who oppress others unjustly
42.43: The most courageous of people are those who are patient and forgiving.

As clearly as I can make it out, the Koran says "you can't blame people for defending themselves, but really Good people will forgive offenses committed against them".

(Sorry to any Koran scholars who happen to drop by... I've probably butchered this horribly, but... err... forgive me?)

UmBillyCord,

They are in support of the U.S, also they are saddened by what has happened. They have even condemned fellow arabs, read the forums properly. The iraqi people are not like the iraqi government.


Originally posted by UmBillyCord


Of course they are. They still live in brain washed world. They still live a in a world where they were handed their asses when they invaded Kuwait. I guess I would have a different point of view too if I were a weak minded fool who has been brain washed by my government. I am glad I have th efreedom to read anything I want and base opinions off open source.

Dear Cperciva,

Do you know what version of the Koran that is from? there is two version, the Shite and the Sunni.

Regards,
HostEXP
Originally posted by cperciva
Hostexp: Take a look at 42.37 - 42.43. Very loosely translated:

42.37: Those who, when angered, forgive, are Good People.
42.38: Ditto for those who pray lots.
42.39: Ditto for those who defend themselves against great wrong.
42.40: But whoever forgives and makes amends shall be rewarded by Allah.
42.41: You can't blame people for defending themselves
42.42: You can only blame people who oppress others unjustly
42.43: The most courageous of people are those who are patient and forgiving.

As clearly as I can make it out, the Koran says "you can't blame people for defending themselves, but really Good people will forgive offenses committed against them".

(Sorry to any Koran scholars who happen to drop by... I've probably butchered this horribly, but... err... forgive me?)

Then why were the Iraqi people along with the Palesenians dancing in the streets today? They think we are the "Great Satan"...they are all the same, dude, can't you see?

What we should do is go over there and make a sandbox out of the whole region...then let Israel run the joint!

They are in support of the U.S, also they are saddened by what has happened. They have even condemned fellow arabs, read the forums properly. The iraqi people are not like the iraqi government.

I apologize. I assumed you were linking to the source you posted about before. The one were you posted about how Saddam is happy for what happened. The one you later removed. I should have went to the link before I posted.

Originally posted by Hostexp
UmBillyCord,

They are in support of the U.S, also they are saddened by what has happened. They have even condemned fellow arabs, read the forums properly. The iraqi people are not like the iraqi government.




Generally theyre probably as sick of their dictatorship government as everyone else is, but who in Iraq would dare stand in the street and speak loudly of such opinions?

Any cartoonists out there, picture Bin Laden just been hit in the arsehole by a smoking tomohawk, suprised look on his face he asks, "Is that you Saddam?"

Originally posted by f5hosting


But even Jesus him SELF attacked the people that were gambling in the temples...

Actually, Jesus never attacked the people -- he attacked the tables -- turned them over... Not just because they were gambling in the temples (and exchanging money and selling things) -- they were desecrating (can't spell tonight) the holy parts of the temple (not the holiest of holies - but still a hold part of the temple)... The temple wasn't there for people to cheat others out of money or to make money... it was there for worship purposes...

~~~~~~~~~

On another note...

I'm glad my husband wouldn't have to get drafted if war was inevitable... He's an only son, a father and a husband... So he can't get drafted into the military. And if you're an only son, you can't really be in active duty on the lines.... you're basically stuck in an office job... No guns... no fighting... (law passed after the Civil War - and still is in effect today).

Thank God for that!

Nope, iraqi people were not dancing in the streets. If they were and it would be in Iraqi, it is under the force of the Government. By the "DO" or "DIE" law.

Palestinians are out of there minds, most arabs do not support the palestinians.

Originally posted by f5hosting
Then why were the Iraqi people along with the Palesenians dancing in the streets today? They think we are the "Great Satan"...they are all the same, dude, can't you see?

What we should do is go over there and make a sandbox out of the whole region...then let Israel run the joint!

iraqi people WERE Dancing in the streets, waiving their IRaqi Flags, and Singing, Dancing, GIVING OUT CANDY, and Making the PEACE SIGN Repeatedly!!!

Footage was ALL OVER, hundreds in the streets.

Originally posted by Hostexp
Do you know what version of the Koran that is from? there is two version, the Shite and the Sunni.

\me looks blank

There's two different versions? I know the Shite and Sunni sects had some doctrinal differences but I was pretty sure that the Koran was the same -- I mean, the Koran was composed while the Prophet was still alive, and the Shite/Sunni split only happened after his death. Right?

Uh-uh that was Palestine, i have been watching cnn since the 2nd plane hit the tower. Even if they were dancing (which they are not) it would be by force...!

they had iraqi flags.
hundreds of them in the streets.

guaranteed.

No they were palestinian flags, they look similar. You have them mixed up, it is VERY hard to get any media coverage inside iraq.

Iraqi Flag:

http://www.fotw.ca/flags/iq.html

Palestinian Flag:

http://flagspot.net/flags/ps.html

I'm sure you saw the second flag..

Regards,
HostEXP

They were Palestinians...

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=73524&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0

Pretty hard to mess up those two flags.............

I think people are getting caught up in the emotions, which is understandable. As I watched this live this morning, I was saddened and shocked and horrified, as was everyone else. I was upset enough to be physically shaken, it was unbelievable and hardly seems real still. This incident has turned my day and thoughts upside down. I, of course, have many strong opinions about this, but the main thought I have, is just to question how any person or group or people could possibly be so evil to commit such an act like this. Few things on such a large scale have happened in this regard before. Pearl Harbor was attacked while a war was waging, we passed embargoes on Japan, we had indications, warnings and reasons to believe something _might_ happen in response. Further, it was a military attack. I don't believe that act, albeit still horrible, can be at all compared to this recent act or terrorism -- and that is the defining factor here. All I can say, is that I'm furious and hurt and my heart goes out to all involved.

However, I don't think that justifies condemning an entire nation/country or people. People say "hundreds" or even "thousands" of various Middle Eastern people were rejoicing. That's pretty sick and clubbing a few of them sounds good to me. However, keep in mind, there's many millions of people that are not all so mindless and stupid. The people don't reflect their government, and the government doesn't reflect the people. These are separate entities and there's always going to be decent people and insane, evil people in every society. After all, we had our Timothy McVeigh.

I don't believe we should be passive, but we also shouldn't act rash either. I think we all know, that whomever is responsible, will be dealt with on the highest level of severity. I've heard many people talk about just nuking all of the Middle East and ending this madness... Provided all that area's inhabitants were all these insane terrorists, I'd be all for it. However, a small percentage are such, even if you have idiot's rejoicing in the streets. As was said, these people are basically brain washed their entire lives and told that the USA is the evil of the West. Many of them believe us and our country/government are devils. There's not too much you can do to ensure that people are sane and not so easily lead in that regard. I have no care for such people, but all those people are not the same based on race, religion (unless they practice some crazy religion that is based on these evils) or geography.

Obviously, we are all upset and rightfully so. In my opinion, there's at least a few people that need to die a slow, painful death. However, what will that do? That will send a message to them that they will be dealt with severely. Okay, but they already know this, it doesn't deter them. Some of them live for this, there's no scaring or intimidating them and executing those responsible will only anger those people more and give them more reason to take it up a notch. It's pretty frightening to think how far it can go. Indeed, that's not to say that we should not take action -- something certainly needs to be done. A lot of these people that are (I'll use the term) "touched by evil", can't care less about anything -- and I mean, _about anything at all_.

Again, some live for it and make it their mission and believe they will be rewarded for such acts -- in their minds. There's no reasoning with people with such mad beliefs, this goes without saying. Don't doubt for one minute, that if such a country has issues with the USA and feels we are pushing them around, that if they had the capabilities, that they wouldn't think twice about annihilating everyone on Earth to either prove a point, not be told what to do, or simply do whatever they can to enforce their beliefs and ideals, no matter how flawed. That, and knowing all the technology and access to such material and information and facilities to develop weapons of mass destruction, knowing they wouldn't hesitate because they feel they have nothing to loose and that their little corner of the world is all they have anyway, (why would they care about anything else beyond that? As far as they'd be concerned at that point, it can't get any worse -- they may as well sacrifice themselves and everyone else on the planet for their cause), is a frightening thought). Therefore, simply assuming that war must be the only appropriate alternative, no matter how deserving, is not necessarily the most wise course of action. Not to mention, it's unlikely to be any nation at work anyway, but rather only a few select terrorists working out of a few cells.

Of course, it goes without saying, that we aren't going to be willing to let them have that control factor over us and get away with it or submit. I don't believe this is so simple of war or not war. In fact, this brings me to where people commented on the "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth... pound of flesh.. etc.." And alternatively (assumed) "turn the other cheek". I just thought it would be interesting to mention something about that, since it was brought up; Firstly, from what I know, the Old Testament is there, as the New Testament would make little relevant since in a lot of aspects without the Old. It's not just a contradiction and there's a lot of understanding that I don't have the education required to understand fully. I'm not forcing any beliefs on anyone, just saying what I'm aware of.

Secondly, as far as the "Turn the other cheek", was not meant as "Let them walk all over you, submit rather than fight" type of preaching. Moreover, it is strongly theorized to mean quite the opposite in some regard. That's to say, back "in the day", the master's would backhand their slaves as a show of authority, and to slap someone with your palm, was to basically have them as an equal to you. Therefore, when you turn the other cheek, you are in effect saying "Why don't you hit me with your palm, as an equal, not as a lesser person or slave". That said, it's not difficult to understand, given how this term was used, and furthermore, that it's not contradictive or to say that you should let people oppress you or treat you as a lesser or allow them to walk all over you and not defend yourself or your beliefs.

Finally, as per fighting war and if you'd enlist. This is highly unlikely to be any government and will not be condoned by any government in their right mind. We have a large enough military force to effectively deal with something on this level, since it's unlikely to involve war on a nation, unless that nation is unwilling to comply with the demands of the United States to hand over or cooperate with the capture and punishment of said parties responsible. I suppose that could happen, going back to the comment I made about some of these smaller Middle East countries only caring about their little world in their country, because that's all that exists to them that's important or relevant to them. That said, once again, this could create problems and it can escalate, as the country in question will possibly feel the United States is "once again" trying to take unreasonable control and having unreasonable demands.. so who knows.

However, this was an attack on our soil. We were invaded, they brought it here and drew first blood. Given the nature of those responsible, there was no preventing, avoiding or reasoning with them. This way of thinking is their way of life and beliefs -- it was going to happen, it has happened (on a smaller scale) and will happen again, provided they have opportunity or inspiration or "reason". This likely could not have been prevented by the United States not posing a threat in whatever manner offended them or gave them this opinion, simply because they already see the United States as a target anyway. Granted, there could have possibly been a point or time or option to have avoided this initial opinion about the USA, but that time is long past. Though, I don't want them to have another reason, it's inevitable to happen again anyway.

The fact they invaded our country and wouldn't have any other consideration other than to destroy innocent lives on such a massive scale, tells me that I am angry enough to fight them. After all, it's not going to prevent it by not taking action anyway. So, depending, I might very well support whatever action this government deems appropriate, even if it's war. I don't think we should believe or pretend to know, that this situation doesn't contain many delicate aspects and isn't simply a matter of counter attacking or not. Thanks for listening. Sorry about the length, but non simple questions require detailed (and in my case, opinionated) responses.

Well put Tim........

cperciva, I totally disagree with you.

Confucious wrote (I'm summarizing):
Death is something we all hate.
However there are some things we hate more than death itself.
It is then we must risk our lives and fight.

I agree that violence is not good, but what would you have the U.S. do? Sit back and be called a coward? It's not just about saving face, but also to show the world we're not some overweight weakling that others can push around and then get away scott-free. If we let them go this time, I guarantee there will be a next time, and a next time, and so on. They'll get more bolder and more destructive. So then what? What's next? When will we finally stand up and fight back?

Sure we can beef up security and increase intellegence monitoring, but NO amount of monitoring/security can keep us 100% safe. NOTHING. If I felt like blowing up a highrise I guarantee I can do it. I might die or get caught but I can do it. And so can anyone. Unless they got satellites with big brother following you every second of your life, and unless security guards pat you down whenever you pass through a door, there's just NO WAY.

When Saddam Hussein was fighting Iran, he was supported by the American government...

When Osama Bin Laden was fighting the Russians, he was supported by the American government...

As other people have pointed out in this thread, violence begets violence. The point raised about Canadians being able to walk the world relatively peacefully is an illustration that it may be well to mull over when the grief and sadness surrounding this is over.

Some of the comments in this thread are examples of the unthinking hatred which leads to the kind of actions which created this tragedy. This is an international forum, not an American one. While it may be an appropriate place to express our sadness and grief, I find it dismaying and distasteful in the extreme to read about people's hypothetical bloodlust (because, let's face it, you won't be enlisting, will you?) and I think that the moderators should debate whether or not this is suitable.

My sympathy and best wishes to anyone who has been affected by these appalling acts.

This was not an attack on America. It was an attack on humanity.
It has touched all nations.
Granted, the intended target was the U.S. This action has appalled the world.
Saying to "turn the other cheek" and "don't find trouble and it won't find you" is ludicrous.
This is an abomination against all peoples. The fact that this thread was started by a Canadian should be proof of that.
The person that said that the U.S. brought this on themselves by being the defenders of the free world; doesn't deserve to be free.

I'm with you RunOfTheMill!! I may be old and not in good physical condition. But, I'm sure I could do something. And I will.

This is a sad thing for the world. It is a sad thing for all peoples.

There is an old Japanese proverb that reads:

If your Opponent smites you
you must strike him.

If your Opponent strikes you,
you must cut him to the bone

If your Opponent cuts you to the bone,
you must take his life!

------------------------------------

We have been essentially cut to the bone here. We can not, and I am sure we WILL not sit back and take this like the little weak, opprressed, punk assed country that some in this thread want us to be. NO, we are strong...America WILL go on, and America WILL NOT stand for this or any other UNPROVOKED attack on its' soil. Just ONE drop of American blood hitting our soil as a result of war, and yes, this is WAR, is WAY too much. There was a hell of a lot more than one drop hitting our soil yesterday!

We were cut to the bone, and SOMEONE MUST PAY and pay DEARLY!

I grow so tired of the foreign users posting proverbs, reciting the bible, preaching history, and filling us with their superior knowledge of the world. Telling us how we should react. I have one question.

"Where does your country stand in the world?" That is what I though. Mine stands #1, and we got that way for a reason. It sure wasn't from some proverb preaching moron.

*goes online to look for proverbs to look smart*

Joking.

Maybe you should preach elsewhere, because you are not going to change what happens next.

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
I grow so tired of the foreign users posting proverbs. . . .Are you saying Florida and California are foreign to one another? :eek:

P.S. to an earlier P.S. to an earlier post...........Wergild is not applicable.

I have a Syrian friend who told me years ago that during anti-American protests there in the 80's students were rounded up from campuses and forced to particiapte under penalty of death. Often these demonstrations were staged for the benefit of foreign media.

Please keep this in mind when judging what you see.

However, I do suspect that the Palestinians reaction was not staged. Many there have been taught to hate because of oppression. Our government position has been to aid their oppressors. So even though many of us seek peace for that region. we are considered the enemy .

I am with you, if we go to war I am in!! Cpercival, maybe you're just a coward, which is fairly common in todays society so I don't really hold it against you, but what happened yesterday was just the beginning.
They have gained confidence now, it is not over.

Are you saying Florida and California are foreign to one another?

Yeah, thats it. There is always one.

Why don't you take the time to read these forums in WHT regarding the issue and the numerous other furums and news groups. You will see a common thread. This was not an attack on anyone inparticular, only a simple observation and an opinion.

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
I grow so tired of the foreign users posting proverbs, reciting the bible, preaching history, and filling us with their superior knowledge of the world. Telling us how we should react. I have one question.

"Where does your country stand in the world?" That is what I though. Mine stands #1, and we got that way for a reason. It sure wasn't from some proverb preaching moron.

*goes online to look for proverbs to look smart*

Joking.

Maybe you should preach elsewhere, because you are not going to change what happens next.

I know you werent talking about me adn the proverb that I wrote...are you? I am as American as they come. I WANT to strike these bastards down!

I know you werent talking about me adn the proverb that I wrote...are you? I am as American as they come. I WANT to strike these bastards down!

I am not blind. :D

I should have been more clear. There is a common thread in news groups and forums. Read them, and make your own judgement.

Originally posted by cperciva
No.

Violence begets violence. Hate begets hate. War begets war. And revenge, however satifying, does not bring people back to life.

Go off and kill or die if you must. But I, for one, shall not join you.

That's why WWII could've been lost cause people like you didn't want to go fight. Let sit back and relax and get killed.

Originally posted by UmBillyCord


Yeah, thats it. There is always one.

Why don't you take the time to read these forums in WHT regarding the issue and the numerous other furums and news groups. You will see a common thread. This was not an attack on anyone inparticular, only a simple observation and an opinion. Reading may be a good choice.
I have noticed a poster with twenty posts over the past day, rarely addressing the situation; often addressing other posters.
Let's try to keep from attacking one another in this forum.

'nuff said.

It's not about bringing people back, that's just ignorance to even state that. There's most likely going to be more killed and more violence. The military reaction will probably be aimed at setting an example, I wouldn't be too hopeful that they are going to drag these terrorists back and sentence them to community service.

Most people say they'd join but in reality if they see a gun they'll faint. Talk Talk Talk.

Anyway I'd join.

I have noticed a poster with twenty posts over the past day, rarely addressing the situation; often addressing other posters.

Maybe this poster did a lot of reading, then started posting once s/he noticed something. Maybe, s/he is "addressing the situation" by addressing the other posters.


Let's try to keep from attacking one another in this forum.

'nuff said!

What we should do is go over there and make a sandbox out of the whole region...then let Israel run the joint!

...and you wonder why people are reacting???

One of the appalling aspects of this attack was the confusing of innocent Americans with their country's policies. Reacting to the TV pictures of children celebrating, some of you are prepared to make exactly the same mistake and attack innocent civilians.

And another generation of orphans will grow up believing America is the Great Satan...

Not everyone who fought in WWII went willingly, we had to have a draft.

History shows that violence does beget violence, and often leads to a downward spiral. How do you think the Middle East got to the current mess it is in? But there are some who will attack again if you "turn the other cheek." People can only withstand so much before they lash out with violence. Many have thought that one reason we did not knock off Bin Laden after the Embassy bombings was because that would make him a martyr and lead to terrorist attacks by his followers. If he is confirmed as the culprit this time, I suspect he won't see next year. Dealing with his followers is also critical.


But please, don't call people cowards because they prefer non-violent methods of dealing with the terrorism. Many people's religious beliefs do not allow them to take up arms for any reason. I have many Mennonites in my family (not me). They prefer the plow to the sword and it caused them to be persecuted across Europe. During WWII they worked in support services, such as shipbuilding, food production, etc. Others whose religions preclude taking up arms worked as medics. Those laboring on the homefront helped to supply the troops and enabled others to serve.

I have friends in the AF and we just had this discussion last week. A number of planes in various conflicts have gone out. Many returned without fullfilling their missions. Some report trouble with their planes, yet upon inspection no problems are found. Their implicationwas that some people can't handle being shot at so they report mechanical problems.

And I know pilots who served in Nam & Korea who told me they had to get drunk after missions to block out the thoughts of being shot at or of killing innocent children. And I've heard that around 30% of the infantry returns without firing their weapons. Not everyone who does serve really has the mental makeup required. It is real easy to sound brave, but how you act in the heat of battle may be total different.

Originally posted by SoftWareRevue
P.S. to an earlier P.S. to an earlier post...........Wergild is not applicable.

Quite right. But the reason it exists -- to avoid blood feuds -- is just as relevant today as it ever was.

And I've heard that around 30% of the infantry returns without firing their weapons. Not everyone who does serve really has the mental makeup required. It is real easy to sound brave, but how you act in the heat of battle may be total different.

I remember at OCS we had a lecture with a combat psychologist and he brought Vietnam and Korean vets from the front lines. One comment sticks out from an old vet.

"Those who know combat and have actually been in combat hate it. Those who state they love and revel in combat have either never seen, are liars, or are completely nuts."

The M16 use to have single shot and automatic. Colt removed automatic and put in burst instead. 1) Because auto would melt the barrel, but 2) People would freeze in battle, finger on trigger, fire all their ammo and hide in fox holes. It wasn't cowardice, but human nature.

Originally posted by KG
And I've heard that around 30% of the infantry returns without firing their weapons. Not everyone who does serve really has the mental makeup required. It is real easy to sound brave, but how you act in the heat of battle may be total different.
That`s why you join the Marine Corps and get some real training! :D

:) SEMPER FI

WHOOHA!

Ah but only those with a "certain mentality" join the Marines. :D

Originally posted by KG
Ah but only those with a "certain mentality" join the Marines. :D
Yep, those who actually want to fight and die for there country instead of sitting behind the lines bitching how dirty our hands are. If you are trying to say something else please explain, you know us Marines are a little slow! :rolleyes:

Take the chip off the shoulder.
I don't have any complaint with the Marines. They are far too often cannon fodder.
Lost a good friend in the 1983 terrorist attack on the Marine barracks.
The Marines I know are of a different mentality than the flyboys around here.

BTW I don't just bitch about things I don't like that our country does.
I work to improve areas and policies that need improving. So that our
servicemen & women aren't cut down needlessly.

I really don't know what to make of this situation, but I will try.

Without a doubt, America will get who did this...lets not debate this point
There may be a war and there may not be a war
We shouldn't hold a whole country responsible for the actions of some of its inhabitants
In many countries people are sheltered from the real world and taught that the US is evil...they don't know better
[/list=1]
These I think are the things we can be sure of...so now it's time for my personal opinion

I think that there will be military action/war, I don't like the thought of it, but we have to recognize that it is going to happen. But we also have to recognize that are military isn't going to stop terrorism. In fact, terrorism is usually committed because people know they can't do anything else, because in the case of the US, we have the best military in the world (according to many). Terrorism is caused by distrust, hate, and other such stuff.

Therefore, I think an answer to minimizing terrorism is not through the military, but through foreign relations/policies. There are many reasons that people have to be extremely angry at the US.
[list]
We have not signed treaties that clearly benefit the world
The Missile Defense Shield, no one supports us yet we continue to spend money on it and try to implement it
We back out of treaties that we have signed
We apply sanctions to countries, like Iraq, that clearly are killing innocent people. (I have seen government documents that show that the US knew from the very beginning that the sanctions were causing the spread of illness by not allowing Iraq to import water treatment equipment)
The US tries to be the world police and people are pissed that we think we are above them and should be the police

I'm not condoning what the terrorists did, which is terrible, but we have done stuff to make them pissed (this may sound like i support or think what they did was okay b/c of what we did, I AM NOT saying that!!)

I personally think war is horrible and should be avoided. I know that I could not shoot another person. Does this make me a coward? NO, and it is stupid for people to call others who don't want to kill people cowards!!

This is simply my opinion. Please, I want you to realize that this is my opinion; you have your opinion. Don't try to change others--you won't succeed! (esp. on this board ;) )

I think cperciva has the "smart" solution which many of you do not have.

- America goes to war against Terrorists

- Terrorists go to war against America

The above can go on forever, someone needs to stop. I don't see the Terrorists stopping there acts of Terror, but maybe American can show some good for evil.

Regards,
HostEXP

Originally posted by Palm


That's why WWII could've been lost cause people like you didn't want to go fight. Let sit back and relax and get killed.

Many in the US wanted to stay out of it, it was only when Pearl Harbour occured that America chose to enter the conflict.

I do not wish to go because I feel so many of them do not know what a real war is about, ask what they said about war in Vietnam, I assure you it is not manly thing about being afraid to die, but will I second guess if I am forced to go, yes, but then I will pray that I do not have to go, and do what I can here...but the way it is looking they are voting on a "Declaration of War" at the moment...

My friends this does not look good...

Originally posted by Cyberpunk


Many in the US wanted to stay out of it, it was only when Pearl Harbour occured that America chose to enter the conflict.

Ummm, what about Europe?

Yes, many of them tried to stay out of it too and little good it did them.

I just read the CIA world factbook on Afghanistan and I'd be ready to enlist if they were involved because theyre the the biggest producer of Heroin, and I'd like to see that stuff wiped out forever.

Yeah, but i mean America did not only enter WWII because of Pearl Harbour, but also because of Europe.

Yeah, but i mean America did not only enter WWII because of Pearl Harbour, but also because of Europe.

Actually, the US had numerous chances to enter the war in Europe pre 1942. The sinking of US ships by Germans was one factor. Instead we stayed out and only provided political and monetary support. When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, the US declared war on Japan. Not Germany and Italy. Only after Germany made good on its promise to Japan and declared war first on the US, did we in turn declare war on the European Axis.

For what its worth.

As a side note, you guys should read up on Afghanistan. They have a interesting history and country. Even Marco Polo was fascinated.

Right now the Taliban are fighting for recognition in the world. Even though they have the power, I do not believe one country yet recognizes them as a legitimate government. The Northern Alliance that they are fighting are called an alliance because they put down their differences and stopped battling each other, and combined forces to fight the Taliban. Do you know what happens if they win? More civil war.

With this being said, I do not even think a war hero is worth the wrath of the world for harboring the most hated man in the world. They will turn him over if he indeed is behind this.

Originally posted by steve


...and you wonder why people are reacting???

One of the appalling aspects of this attack was the confusing of innocent Americans with their country's policies. Reacting to the TV pictures of children celebrating, some of you are prepared to make exactly the same mistake and attack innocent civilians.

And another generation of orphans will grow up believing America is the Great Satan...

How right you are!

Domenico, you seem to have a few answers for many post. Why don't you tell us what you think we should do.

An old proverb -

"Don't bring me problems without possible solutions"

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
Right now the Taliban are fighting for recognition in the world. Even though they have the power, I do not believe one country yet recognizes them as a legitimate government.

From what reports I've heard (particularly with the Aid Workers drama in Afghanistan), only 3 countries in the world recognises the Taliban as a legitimate government. I'll try and dig the info out when I can.

(it's my belief all 3 countries are in the Middle East/South Asia region).

One is Pakistan...Im not sure about the others.

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
Domenico, you seem to have a few answers for many post. Why don't you tell us what you think we should do.

An old proverb -

"Don't bring me problems without possible solutions"

Your question is directed at Domenico, but it is a fair one for those of us who are disagreeing with a lot of what some of you are saying.

Personally, I think that the strength of the USA and the reason why it is so admired around the world is, in general, its belief in democracy and especially free speech and the rule of law.

I think that the USA and its allies should make every effort to prepare evidence, find all those responsible, bring them to a fair trial and, if necessary, sentence them appropriately - in fact exactly what took place relatively recently with the culprits from the first WTC bombing. Given the united support from around the world, this should not be an insurmountable hurdle.

IF, and I personally don't believe this at the moment, a government was involved in this, then it would indeed be an act of war and one that NATO would be "justified" in undertaking.

This is, however, a long long way from the "bomb all the towelheads" calls which have been coming from some of you. In a country which cherishes free speech and tolerance, your actions give comfort to those who would wish to put it down. Look at the death threats to the Arab communities in Michigan and California, let alone to innocent people in the Middle East and Asia, and think about how they appear to the rest of the world.