We currently have a Cisco 2924 (24 ports) and a 3Com Superstack 10/100 12-port switch. Both have served us well; however, since we now have about 30 ports connected, I'm looking for something a bit more advanced.

I'm looking for a switch that does VLANs (that a non-router guru like me can set up; I'm not afraid of the command line... just have to know what to type there!) and that does bandwidth limiting (i.e. I can log in and say that port x should be limited to any arbitrary value such as 10Mbit or 25Mbit.) I also want a switch with 48 ports or more or 2x24-port switches that can be chained together. I'd also need SNMP, but as both of our current switches already have this, it seems like a given with any reasonably high-end switch.

Another company is looking to get rid of an Extreme Networks Summit 48-port switch (model 15000.) Would this work for our purposes?

Of course, I'll hire someone to set this all up. I'm just looking for purchase recommendations right now.

First the good news, you don't need to be a router guru.
Switches are much easier to handle. Uh, never mind, I take that back.

Extreme is good, Foundry, HP, Cisco.
Problem is that I do not believe that L2 and L3 switches do traffic shaping. They do QoS stuff like giving priority but I'm pretty sure you need a L3 router to do CAR (Committed Access Rate) and Traffic-shaping or rate-limit stuff. For example, I have this on my routers fastethernet interface:
rate-limit output 5000000 650000 1250000 conform-action transmit exceed-action drop

This caps that interface to 5 megs.

You may want to check out Cisco works policy manager:
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/sw/cscowork/ps2064/products_data_sheet09186a0080091bcf.html

Well,

Geting your own IP's you'll be able to BGP, but I am not sure about the rate limiting. You may have to look into that. There might be 3rd party software out there to help you. I have actually had the priviledge of using quite a number of higher end equipment and Summit48's are good as well as maybe Cisco 2948 L3.

Try them. Superstack is garbage if you ask me and I'm not to keen on the 3com ones.

Hmm. I'm really looking for a solution that would not require us to get our own router, as that would be a single point of failure on our network, and one that could be very expensive to replace if something happened. :) I'd rather keep the routing done by Abovenet.

What are my options if I want to do rate-limiting, then?

Thanks!

Originally posted by Papa Smurff
First the good news, you don't need to be a router guru.
Switches are much easier to handle. Uh, never mind, I take that back.

Extreme is good, Foundry, HP, Cisco.
Problem is that I do not believe that L2 and L3 switches do traffic shaping. They do QoS stuff like giving priority but I'm pretty sure you need a L3 router to do CAR (Committed Access Rate) and Traffic-shaping or rate-limit stuff. For example, I have this on my routers fastethernet interface:
rate-limit output 5000000 650000 1250000 conform-action transmit exceed-action drop

This caps that interface to 5 megs.

You may want to check out Cisco works policy manager:
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/sw/cscowork/ps2064/products_data_sheet09186a0080091bcf.html


After a discussion in a different forum it is safe to say that any switch that also has a routing function built into it can handle your traffic shaping needs. These are typically referred to as Layer 3 switches. Otherwise known as "switch routers".
The Summit 48 and 2948 L3 are both good choices. I hear the Summit is faster though because it is true wire speed.

Originally posted by Papa Smurff
After a discussion in a different forum it is safe to say that any switch that also has a routing function built into it can handle your traffic shaping needs. These are typically referred to as Layer 3 switches. Otherwise known as "switch routers".
The Summit 48 and 2948 L3 are both good choices. I hear the Summit is faster though because it is true wire speed.

So the Summit 48 that this company is offering to sell us would limit a port to a specific speed (an arbitrary one; not just 10Mbit or 100Mbit)?

I want to make sure of this, since this will be a large investment for our company. Not only will we have to buy the switch (which is expensive!), but we will also have to hire out to configure it and train our staff on how to use it. As an explanation, I run the business end of things (sales, marketing, etc.) and I've hired two technical gurus to maintain and support our systems, but unfortunately none of us are router gurus... and I don't want someone on staff to set up such a core aspect of our business as a "learning experience." ;)

Thanks!

I can't speak as to Summit.
Cisco, yes.
It depends on the feature sets of the IOS versions that can be run on the particular route module inside of the "switch router".

You really should do some research on the particular models and see exactly what they are capable of.
Then make sure the particular OS versions support what you want to do.

Summit have rate-limiting as well, for both the basic L3 and the Full L3.

I have research this as well, the 2948XL - EN would also do this.

If u're looking for something cheap, the Nortel would do too.

Erica,

I'd recommend you use the 2948G-L3 its costs about ...$1900 or so on eBay, which will do basically what you'd like. It also can do vlan-tagging.

If you want to go the cheaper method you can add a zebra router above it and have it act as the L3 and then setup VLANS from the ZEBRA and have each of the 2924 ports use the assigned VLAN port that was given from the ZEBRA.

The Zebra method will save on you buying new switches, as long as there is a management system built into the switch. (I.E. Cisco, Extreme, Foundry)

I just called and spoke with a rep from Extreme Networks. He said he didn't have full documentation on the Summit 48 15000, but that it looked like it came with firmware version 4.0. Version 6.2 was the first one that supported per-port rate limiting... that's the version that comes with the 48i switches. He was unsure whether the 48 could be upgraded to support the latest firmware, but it appears unlikely.

Nectar, funny that you just mentioned the 2948G-L3... I checked out eBay and I saw one for sale there. It absolutely has everything we need; the datasheet says this:

The Catalyst 2948G-L3 supports per-port input rate limiting,output rate limiting, and traffic shaping on Gigabit Ethernet and Fast Ethernet interfaces. The per-port rate limiting feature provides the ability to rate limit the input and/or output traffic of a port. The traffic rate of the port is monitored. The conforming traffic is allowed, and the nonconforming traffic is dropped. The per-port shaping feature provides the ability to shape the output of a port. The output traffic rate of the port is monitored to verify that the traffic leaves the interface at the user-configured rate. When excess traffic comes into the switch, back pressure is applied from the modules to the switch fabric, and the excess traffic gets queued in the switch fabric. If the switch fabric queues overflow, the excess traffic is dropped. The minimum rate is 32 kbps, with a granularity of 32 kbps.

That's exactly what I'm looking for. :gthumb:

Guess I'll start ironing out the budget to work that in... ;)

I would check out the Foundry gear ... ( FastIron WorkStation 4802 PREMIUM )

Extreme is not that powerful on L3 side.

One thing to pay attention to on the lower end line of Cisco switches is resource exhaustion. If you are using such a device to facilitate actual Layer2 VLANs, Layer 3 SVI's and VLSM allocations, as well as QoS, you may very well run into an issue with exhuasting the unit. And when I say exhaust, try to picture a two pack a day smoker in the finishing stretch of the New York Marathon; it's not pretty. Once you have exhausted the switches onboard TCAM for VLAN/ARP and QoS, the CPU will begin to 'process' packets, rather than the hardware performing the forwarding. When this happens your network will perform in what would be considered a 'less than desirable' fashion.

If you have specifics about the network topology, and what will be connected to it, I'd be happy to offer suggestions based on my own experience and regrettable mistakes.

Regards,

Originally posted by narziss
One thing to pay attention to on the lower end line of Cisco switches is resource exhaustion. If you are using such a device to facilitate actual Layer2 VLANs, Layer 3 SVI's and VLSM allocations, as well as QoS, you may very well run into an issue with exhuasting the unit. And when I say exhaust, try to picture a two pack a day smoker in the finishing stretch of the New York Marathon; it's not pretty.

Well, we currently have something like 30 servers connected, and we add 5-7 new servers a month, so obviously something is going to have to be done fairly soon. :(

Most servers won't need VLANs or traffic shaping. I'd just like to be able to sell 10Mbit dedicateds, or limit a few particular customers to, say, 25Mbit to ensure that they don't take over the entire switch if their server gets slammed with requests.

What would you define as a configuration that "exhausts" the switch? Keep in mind that I really have no idea how a switch works on a technical level other than the fact that it moves packets from one place to another. I'm a business owner, not a CCIE. :)

Originally posted by Simpli-Erica

What would you define as a configuration that "exhausts" the switch? Keep in mind that I really have no idea how a switch works on a technical level other than the fact that it moves packets from one place to another. I'm a business owner, not a CCIE. :)

Well, the 1948G-l3 won't exhaust that fast if you do not do much more than VLAN tagging and rate-shaping. This device has a fairly large backplane so you'll really have a hard time overloading it with basic L2 switching with some L3 extensions.
Just don't make the mistake of using the 2948G-L3 as a full router-replacement as it's still just a switch :)

I'd pick up a 2948G-L3 if you can get one at an affordable price :)

low end ciscos are not known to do rate limiting well. for this purpose, i would highly recommend smaller foundry fastirons. they have ACL-based rate limiting which works quite well. level 3 stuff does not work well enough to be used on any of the lower end switches, imho. forget layer 3, get a decent switch to do the switching.

paul

A configuration which might exhaust the resources of a switch is one where you are doing extensive VLAN tagging, and not having a router, you would also need to allocate SVI's, routes, etc. for each of the VLANs. In that kind of model you are using the L3 Switch as a router replacement. 30-40 servers should work ok, but it is not something that will scale very well.

Also, when allocating IP's for customers, stick to one allocation per SVI; route any secondary allocations to their first allocation, as using 'secondary' allocations will eat up TCAM space very quick, particularly on a 2948.

Keep in mind that when you VLAN a customer (unless you're using what are called SuperVLANs, which I wouldn't recommend) you will require specific VLSM allocations for each VLAN, so that they can talk on Layer3.

How do you do bandwidth capping with the Summit 48? I need to cap a port to 20mbps, 30mbps, 40mbps etc...

For web hosting companies (IMO) you can't beat the stuff from Compex (www.cpx.com). We utilize the SXP2224WM when we need a switch that we will utilize bandwidth capping. When we have a customer who we bill on the 95% and utilize SNMP we use the CGX3224.

These are cost effective switches and great performers!

Wow, well since this thread was brought out of the dead...Erica, what type of switch did you end up getting?

You may want to look into managed Dell switches. the 3000 powerconnect series are reasonably priced and offer allot of features.

scott,

how many kpps can those do?

paul

Originally posted by nickn
Wow, well since this thread was brought out of the dead...Erica, what type of switch did you end up getting?

Still budgeting for it, but it looks like we're going to have to make the move within a month. We'll probably end up getting a Cisco 2948G-L3. I'll drag the thread out of the dead again (or create a new one) once we get it and let you know how everything goes. ;)

The Cisco 3550 EMI will do port based rate limiting and QoS. I'm not sure how much you want to spend but these come in 24 and 48 port models. The 24 port cisco list price is something around the $2500 mark, but I've seen them as low as 2k.

Originally posted by ndctech
For web hosting companies (IMO) you can't beat the stuff from Compex (www.cpx.com). We utilize the SXP2224WM when we need a switch that we will utilize bandwidth capping.

I am interested to know how many kbps can it do?? Also care to tell how much does SXP2224WM cost?? They have the model on the site but price seem to be missing.

You don't want to touch the Dell 3000s, they have lots of problems.

What's wrong with the dells? They are typically rebranded anyhow, I still think they are rebranded extremes (extremes can handle l2 stuff fine...otherwise, they can do their job: switching.) others argue they aren't. :)

Nobody has a Summit48? It doesn't seem to be able to cap at anything other then 10 or 100 :(

the 3550-emi models will do the rate limiting, and have a pretty good throughput. combine that with fibre uplinks/gbic and trunk a few together and a stack of them will keep up with your growth for a while Erica

But I already have the summit 48 switch. I also have a Cisco 2924 but I don't think it has many features.

Well, the 24 port Dell that came to us was on the same firmware that ship with the 48 versions, cfgmaker ended up thinking it's a 48 port switch and I have to manually delete the non existing 24 port in the mrtg.cfg file.

The documentation also doens't make any sense.

Summit 48i will do rate limiting at whatever speed you like, look for "ingress/egress" in the manual, I somehow remember it's in that section, but I also heard not all version will do the rate limiting.

IF your gonna go with the Cisco solution here's my input................


DO NOT go with the Cisco 2948G-L3 they are being EOL'd.

--->>> http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/cc/pd/si/casi/ca6000/prodlit/2125_pp.htm


The Cisco Catalyst 3550-EMI will serve your needs well. It's very feature rich in it's ability's. With the layer 3 functionality of the EMI version you'll be able to do alot of "traffic control" within your Abovenet cage. From within your cage you'd then just create a default route or two to the Abovenet router that your setup for.

You can also daisy chain these switch's to eliminate a single point of failure (clustering). Of course you'll need to plug each server into both switches.

Overall, I agree that you should let Abovenet handle the routing. Last time I was in the San Jose facility (1998) I remember it being a full cisco shop. The tech's there should be "Cisco savy".

There's two versions of the Cisco Catalyst 3550:

1. SMI model that is nothing more that a switch.
2. EMI model that is a combined switch and router.

The difference between the two is really only software and licensing issue's. The SMI can be upgraded to EMI via a software upgrade and to be legal you'll want to buy a license from Cisco for that.

There are 4 hardware versions available for the port set up:

1. WS-C3550-24 port version with 10/100 ethernet and 2 GBIC-based ports.
2. WS-C3550-48 port version with 10/100 ethernet and 2 GBIC-based ports.
3. WS-C3550-12T port version w/ 10/100/1000 ethernet and 2 GBIC-based ports.
4. WS-C3550-12G port version w/ 10 GBIC-based ports and 2 10/100/1000 Ethernet ports


Quick and dirty between the 3550 SMI Vs 3550 EMI

Standard Multilayer Software Image (SMI)
• Enterprise-class intelligent services
– QoS, rate-limiting, multicast management, VLAN ACLs
Enhanced Multilayer Software Image (EMI)
• SMI feature set plus more functionality including
– FULL Routing - OSPF, EIGRP, RIP, BGP(not full route's though because of memory)
– Dynamic IP unicast and multicast routing
– Inter-VLAN routing
– Routed ACLs
– HSRP
- Voice VLAN

Detailed link on the complete functionality:

--->>> http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/product/lan/c3550/12119ea1/3550scg/index.htm

You'll also want to get a Cisco SMARTnet - This will buy you annual support and access to the latest software and the Cisco TAC. Cover's also hardware replacement. There's different levels of support 24x7x365, 8x5xNBD, etc, etc...

This will usually cost approx 10% of the hardware costs (well worth it if problems should arise)

############################################


But if you see yourself growing substantially I would look into getting a Catalyst 6500.

Just and Example of what's out there:

--->>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3058992653&category=11185

Slap in some 48 port line cards and another power supply and redundant Supervisors your good to go. This route would go between $5-8K if you worked it right.

Hardware is still becoming more and more dirt cheap out there.


######################################

Here's some pics from Hostany's setup. Cisco GSR12000 and Cat 6500. It's a nice setup they have. Although pricey $$$ with that GSR 12000 present...

http://www.broadbandreports.com/forum/remark,6446204~root=bbphotos~mode=flat

http://www.broadbandreports.com/forum/remark,6530061~root=bbphotos~mode=flat

Cisco makes piss poor switches, Extreme Networks are 100000 times better. Cisco does one thing decent, routing. Actually, their routing IOS is so hosed at the moment that we're planning on deploying juniper gear within the next 8 months.

-Drew

Foundry also makes good procucts. The FastIron works well and I think can cap it down to the 256 kbps level.

Originally posted by Cisco_CCIE
IF your gonna go with the Cisco solution here's my input................


DO NOT go with the Cisco 2948G-L3 they are being EOL'd.

--->>> http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/cc/pd/si/casi/ca6000/prodlit/2125_pp.htm


The Cisco Catalyst 3550-EMI will serve your needs well. It's very feature rich in it's ability's. With the layer 3 functionality of the EMI version you'll be able to do alot of "traffic control" within your Abovenet cage. From within your cage you'd then just create a default route or two to the Abovenet router that your setup for.

You can also daisy chain these switch's to eliminate a single point of failure (clustering). Of course you'll need to plug each server into both switches.

Overall, I agree that you should let Abovenet handle the routing. Last time I was in the San Jose facility (1998) I remember it being a full cisco shop. The tech's there should be "Cisco savy".

There's two versions of the Cisco Catalyst 3550:

1. SMI model that is nothing more that a switch.
2. EMI model that is a combined switch and router.

The difference between the two is really only software and licensing issue's. The SMI can be upgraded to EMI via a software upgrade and to be legal you'll want to buy a license from Cisco for that.

There are 4 hardware versions available for the port set up:

1. WS-C3550-24 port version with 10/100 ethernet and 2 GBIC-based ports.
2. WS-C3550-48 port version with 10/100 ethernet and 2 GBIC-based ports.
3. WS-C3550-12T port version w/ 10/100/1000 ethernet and 2 GBIC-based ports.
4. WS-C3550-12G port version w/ 10 GBIC-based ports and 2 10/100/1000 Ethernet ports


Quick and dirty between the 3550 SMI Vs 3550 EMI

Standard Multilayer Software Image (SMI)
• Enterprise-class intelligent services
– QoS, rate-limiting, multicast management, VLAN ACLs
Enhanced Multilayer Software Image (EMI)
• SMI feature set plus more functionality including
– FULL Routing - OSPF, EIGRP, RIP, BGP(not full route's though because of memory)
– Dynamic IP unicast and multicast routing
– Inter-VLAN routing
– Routed ACLs
– HSRP
- Voice VLAN

Detailed link on the complete functionality:

--->>> http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/product/lan/c3550/12119ea1/3550scg/index.htm

You'll also want to get a Cisco SMARTnet - This will buy you annual support and access to the latest software and the Cisco TAC. Cover's also hardware replacement. There's different levels of support 24x7x365, 8x5xNBD, etc, etc...

This will usually cost approx 10% of the hardware costs (well worth it if problems should arise)

############################################


But if you see yourself growing substantially I would look into getting a Catalyst 6500.

Just and Example of what's out there:

--->>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3058992653&category=11185

Slap in some 48 port line cards and another power supply and redundant Supervisors your good to go. This route would go between $5-8K if you worked it right.

Hardware is still becoming more and more dirt cheap out there.


######################################

Here's some pics from Hostany's setup. Cisco GSR12000 and Cat 6500. It's a nice setup they have. Although pricey $$$ with that GSR 12000 present...

http://www.broadbandreports.com/forum/remark,6446204~root=bbphotos~mode=flat

http://www.broadbandreports.com/forum/remark,6530061~root=bbphotos~mode=flat


My provider uses

Cisco 3524 PWR
Processor is running Enterprise Edition Software :
Model Number = WS - C3524 - PWR - XL - EN

Will this do bandwidth capping?

Can I just make a suggestion that the switch is not necessarily the device needed to handle bandwidth? See the routerboard.com guys or mikrotik.com - you get a single board computer with multiple ethernet ports, then do bandwidth limiting on that.

Nothing like bringing back a two year old thread ;)

Greetings:

So far we've found the Foundry FWS4802 to be sweet.

Thank you.

I was asked to help out at a LAN in my area. they used some not so common switches.

4x Asus GigaX1024p Series, now i can say first hand, with 50+ people these switches really handle well.

I was shocked, with the software that came with it i noticed u can rate limit (they saw spikes, found the problem "file sharing" and lowered the guys port to 4 megs) but these are pretty basic.

I'm not saying to use it but, I'm sharing what i have seen to work very well.

switches were under full load for 4 days, didn't break a sweat.

http://usa.asus.com/products/networks/switch/x1024p/overview.htm

Summit 48 is dead, I would stay away from it, Its either the Summit 48i or 48si that you want. They will both do rate shaping, but I would seriously recomend that you get the 48si as it does all ICMP in Hardware ASIC instead of on the slow path CPU.

I also recomment you run Extremeware 7.3 or better and use the IPDA forwarding function to limit the possiblity of FDB thrashing.

The 48si has been a very good performer in the customer aggregation role for us.


As for Cisco, I would say the 3550 should be as low as you go. It is a solid switch and if your not all that good with IOS CLI, and CMS java web interface is actually pretty good for basic setup.

heu, guys, did you looked at the dat erica started the thread ? it was about 2 years ago.. I guess she foud the switch she dreamed off a long time ago...

We use foundry workgroup switches, They are great, very complete and not expensive!

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Foundry FastIron Workgroup - switch - 24 ports
by Foundry Networks
FastIron Workgroup Switch is a workgroup switch that offers 24 ports of 10/100 Ethernet ports, and optionally one or two Gigabit Ethernet ports (copper or fiber). Features include 4, 000 MAC addresses, QoS, Layer 4 TCP/UDP session switching, AC and DC power supply options, optional redundant power, and a complete set of network management applications.
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