I sent a ticket to alwayswebhosting(ronnie) because fantastico didn't work when used to install phpnuke, here is what followed. Give me a break, what happened to Ronnie? This isn't the guy I signed up with. Please read from the bottom up. I tried to paste the emails in the exact order we sent them. Again, please read from the bottom up.


Quoting support@alwayswebhosting.com:

>
>
> Closing ticket.
>
>
>
> We offer them, but do not offer support for them.


Me: I'm sorry... you offer them but can't make them work properly? I don't
understand.



Quoting support@alwayswebhosting.com:

>
>
> Hi, this isn't something we can assist you on.
>
>
>
> We offer the autoinstallers but can't offer the support on them.
>
>
>
> Good luck,
>
>
>
> --
>
Me: I've tried that now. (comment for wht: I got some errors) Please see my updated ticket.

Thanks,
Patrick

Quoting support@alwayswebhosting.com:

>
> If you have trouble with the autoinstallers you're best bet would be to
> install them manually by getting the code from the script's web site and
> installing it yourself.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ronnie T. Moore
>
> AlwaysWebHosting.com

I can understand a host not providing support for working with third party applications that are installed via fantastico (it is clearly spelled out in the fantastico installer), but if Fantastico itself is broken then that's another story entirely.

Perhaps the host misunderstood you, or maybe I am reading the whole thing wrong myself :)

Most hosts do not offer support for 3rd party products (Fantastico is a 3rd party product) so like your host suggested, you can visit the maker of the scripts website and download and install it. Support for installation should be obtained from the maker of the product unless it is a server issue, at that point in time, the host should be obligated to help you.

However, personally I would have just installed it for you and not closed the ticket without a resolution.

Maybe he didn't say it with the most tact, but he is right. It is like the new Ensim Power Tools. Same thing. It is an installer. It is as easy as it comes but still people will do it worng and want support. Worse yet, people who have no clue what the script does install it just because it is there, then want support. Not saying this is what happened with you, but this is why host do not like to support them.

If the host installed fantastico and fantastico does not work, I think that the host should either fix the problem with fantastico or not offer it, regardless if it is third party or not. The host should support the products they offer, don't you think?

As someone posted above, if I were the host, I'd have installed nuke for him then worked on fixing fantastico.

Originally posted by -alb-
If the host installed fantastico and fantastico does not work, I think that the host should either fix the problem with fantastico or not offer it, regardless if it is third party or not. The host should support the products they offer, don't you think?

I have to agree with -alb- on this one.
If a host chooses to install Fantastico it is no longer a third party product and neither are the programs that Fantastico intalls.
If you can't provide support, don't offer Fantastico.

Support is part of customer service. If there is a 3rd party software installed that is offered, I would support it. I, too, agree with alb in regards to supporting services offered.

Originally posted by tbnguyen
Support is part of customer service. If there is a 3rd party software installed that is offered, I would support it. I, too, agree with alb in regards to supporting services offered.

This isn't an issue with Fantastico, it is an issue with the support of the thrid party script that Fantastico installs. Big difference. If Fantastico is broke, of course they should support it. But if Fantastico works, but the customer used it incorrectly, then should the script be supported? Do you support the install of third party CGIs not installed by Fantastico? Do you support Miva merchant related tickets that relate to building a Miva store?

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
This isn't an issue with Fantastico, it is an issue witht he support of the thrid party scripot that Fantastico installs. Big difference. If Fantastico is broke, of course they should support it. But if Fantastico works, but the customer used it incorrectly, then should the script be supported? Do you support the install of third party CGIs not installed by Fantastico? Do you support Miva merchant related tickets that relate to building a Miva store?

Fantastico did not install phpnuke in a workable fashion.

If the host installs Fantastico and it doesn't work properly with the system configuration, ie: it doesn't install programs properly, then it should be the responsibility of that host to work on it with the client.

It's true, it's not an issue with Fantastico... it's an issue with the support for laying out very untactful ways of providing support to this customer. Bottom line, if you provide something as an offer to your clients, shouldn't you have a relationship w/ the 3rd party developers to provide you and your clients some support?

Originally posted by xunil37
Fantastico did not install phpnuke in a workable fashion.

Understood. But can youinstall it without Fantastico? If you can't, then maybe the script should be installed by a webmaster, etc... No offense.

To me, Fantastico and Ensim Power Tools are just short-cuts to assist with installs. They do not make you a cgi or php person. It is like having a book you can not see the letters too. So someone makes it easy and gives you the same book with large letters. It helps out. But if you can not read to start with ......

I don't know anything about your skill set. I am just generalizing. :)

Originally posted by blue27
If the host installs Fantastico and it doesn't work properly with the system configuration, ie: it doesn't install programs properly, then it should be the responsibility of that host to work on it with the client.

Unless noted before hand? If you know going in there are no guarantees to support, then there should be no issue. But I guess it all depends on your threshold for scripting support and customer sevice.

If Fantastico did not install it correctly I would remove the bad install and advise or install it via Fantastico for the client.

Once the install is done, there is 0 support for the products.
I do not agree the host should be responsible for support for each of the scripts in Fantastico.

Host's offer them as a bonus and convenience to clients, not to add to their support role and what they need to learn/keep up with.

{edit= typos}

Well the thing is, if it's a problem with the installation of phpNuke alone, then it's a phpNuke problem. If that is the case, the host is right not to offer support for phpNuke, as he probably wouldn't know where to begin.

Have you tried installing the other apps that come with Fantastico?

Originally posted by tbnguyen
It's true, it's not an issue with Fantastico... it's an issue with the support for laying out very untactful ways of providing support to this customer. Bottom line, if you provide something as an offer to your clients, shouldn't you have a relationship w/ the 3rd party developers to provide you and your clients some support?

This is something we wrestled with since the introduction of Power Tools and the support request that followed. We ended up taking the approach we did with Miva. We ensure the scripts and software work. We do not support outside that. I guess some might look at it like the Dell/Microsoft relationship. Do you call Dell if your Microsoft software doesn't work? They offered it and installed it.

I don't really feel that my skillset is the point. If I was an expert, would I be using fantastico?

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
Unless noted before hand? If you know going in there are no guarantees to support, then there should be no issue. But I guess it all depends on your threshold for scripting support and customer sevice.


I think it depends on our definition of third party program UmBillyCord. I can understand a host not providing support for PHP or CGI scripts that someone just found on Hotscripts but I think if a host chooses to offer Fantastico, he/she is using that as a selling point and should offer support for it and any installs it offers.
If someone bought Fantastico themselves and installed it, then I can see the host not having any obligation to provide support for it.

Originally posted by idoogleceo
Well the thing is, if it's a problem with the installation of phpNuke alone, then it's a phpNuke problem. If that is the case, the host is right not to offer support for phpNuke, as he probably wouldn't know where to begin.

Have you tried installing the other apps that come with Fantastico?

When I couldn't get phpnuke to install, I tried postnuke, phpbb, and phpwebsite(I believe is what it is called). None of them intalled / worked.

Anyway, thanks for all fo the input. I appreciate it. I'll keep plugging away. Probably shouldn't have tried to take the shortcut way out to begin with:)

Then that seems like a Fantastcio problem.

Originally posted by xunil37
I don't really feel that my skillset is the point. If I was an expert, would I be using fantastico?

In my opinion it does matter. Fantastico doesn't make you understand php or scripting. So someone with no skill set in that arena should probably hire outside help to start with.

I guess the bottom line is that if you are 'pissed", contact your host. Let them know. If they do not provide support, go to someone who will if you belive it should be supported. Sounds liek a lot of host believe it should be supported. So you shouldn't have trouble finding one.

Originally posted by xunil37


Anyway, thanks for all fo the input. I appreciate it. I'll keep plugging away. Probably shouldn't have tried to take the shortcut way out to begin with:)

If that is the case, then it does not seem Fantastico is working and it should be supported.

Rob

If this was the case, the autoinstaller not installing, I definitely think the host should get the issue resolved. Try e-mailing your host a link to this thread, a little WHT exposure usually gets the issue resolved.

Originally posted by SRLHosting
If that is the case, then it does not seem Fantastico is working and it should be supported.

Rob

Agreed.

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
In my opinion it does matter. Fantastico doesn't make you understand php or scripting. So someone with no skill set in that arena should probably hire outside help to start with.

I guess the bottom line is that if you are 'pissed", contact your host. Let them know. If they do not provide support, go to someone who will if you belive it should be supported. Sounds liek a lot of host believe it should be supported. So you shouldn't have trouble finding one.

You're right that fantastico doesn't make me understand php or scripting. All I want to do is put up a phpnuke page and play with it. It's not for commercial use, it's a "just because I want to" use. Why the heck would I hire outside support in this case?

I'm not here to bash AWH, I'm here to see if this is a normal response to an inquiry like this. I see opinion varies. God bless the USA.

As far as offering Power Tools or Fantastico and pawning off support to the third parties, here's an interesting read.

http://www.icdevgroup.org/i/dev/cpanel.html?id=VWCYgjZy

I post that link whenever I get a chance. :)

{removed- Too off topic}

Originally posted by mesopia(Jay)
Most hosts do not offer support for 3rd party products (Fantastico is a 3rd party product) so like your host suggested, you can visit the maker of the scripts website and download and install it. Support for installation should be obtained from the maker of the product unless it is a server issue, at that point in time, the host should be obligated to help you.

However, personally I would have just installed it for you and not closed the ticket without a resolution.

Yeah, but, if the host is including it as part of the service, and advertising it as a feature, they should support it, or make it _real_ clear that its there but not supported.

Otherwise, it seems like bait and switch to me...

I agree though, they should have just done it for him, or at least tried to help. Really, its not that hard...

Take care,

Brian

Originally posted by Coach
As far as offering Power Tools or Fantastico and pawning off support to the third parties, here's an interesting read.

http://www.icdevgroup.org/i/dev/cpanel.html?id=VWCYgjZy

I post that link whenever I get a chance. :)

I can understand the Interchange dude's point, but him labeling the whole community of CPanel hosts as incompetent at running Interchange on their servers is way, way out of line.

We've done some pretty incredible customizations for our customers with Interchange. We've gotten things to work that I never thought would. There isn't a problem with Interchange on CPanel, you just need a little bit of knowledge, and you can do just fine.

Take care,

Brian

The Interchange viewpoint is this:

Due to the fact that there are a lot of incompetent host on Cpanel, (and Cpanel does attract that crowd a bit), many of the users run into problems, and burden them with support issues that is due to the use of Interchange in an environment it wasn't designed for. For them to come up with such a dedicated page for the issue must mean the problem is significant enough.

I can appreciate you did great work and got things to work. But in this case, we supported the wishes of the original authors and we disable Interchange on all our servers with Cpanel (not because we can't make it work either) but more as a form respect for the authors.

Originally posted by sprintserve
we supported the wishes of the original authors and we disable Interchange on all our servers with Cpanel (not because we can't make it work either) but more as a form respect for the authors.

Ditto and would do the same for any of the scripts/apps added by cPanel or 3rd party software like Fantastico, if the authors where against it.

Originally posted by blue27
I have to agree with -alb- on this one.
If a host chooses to install Fantastico it is no longer a third party product and neither are the programs that Fantastico intalls.
If you can't provide support, don't offer Fantastico.

As a host I don't necessarily agree with this, but as a customer I would agree with this and therefore we don't offer any preinstalled scripts outside of the control panel itself and this is exactly why.

In my opinion everything you "offer" has to be supported and that includes server installed scripts. One reason "jsp" has never been mentioned on our site even though ensim has it by default we can't support it so we don't list it as part of the account offerings and disable it on the servers.

Well I think that if Fantastico is not functioning properly in an environment that it should be working in, then the host has messed up somewhere, in the installation of Fantastico, most likely.

Now whether or not they know how to fix it, is beside the point. If they don't know how to fix it, then they need to find someone that does, and get it fixed.

While I do not feel that the host should provide support for the individual applications that come with Fantastico, I do believe they should be a little knowledgable the the installation, and proper functionality of the software they install on their servers, for their client's usage.

I agree with the standpoint that if you offer it...You support it.

If it is on your servers "you put it there" as an offered product you must support it.

I would agree that if it is offered and appears to not be working that the host has an obligation to test Fantastico and insure that it is working properly. If it is then a little guidance for the user with the admonishment that once installed the software itself is not supported would be in order.

On the converse side of that, this would be left to me and the other admins to take a look at as our techs only handle the day to day problems and we don't expect them to be familiar with products like Fantastico and Power Tools. So I can only comment on what I would personally do, but customer support is the ultimate key to a successful business.

PHP-Nuke is available on Cpanel servers even without Fantastico as an install if they have it enabled. While you're waiting for your host to fix Fantastico, you could look for this other copy of PHP-Nuke to see if it's there and available in addition to the Fantastico version.

What it IS is a PROBLEM. It's not a hard one fix. It might not be the hosts responsibility, but it darn sure is in his best interest to assist his clients with the little details if he wants to keep them.

The issue to me is that the client is going elsewhere for help. The client might also go elsewhere to have his card debited too. THAT is the hosts problem. Not a problem I would want over a 10 minute fix.

He should go into the master file and fix the error so he does not piss off every customer that trys to install it, and then comes to him for help only to be told that he wont help them. How stupid is that? :eek:

This is a self defeating business behavior on the part of this host. He does not value his clients and his growth rate will be meager at best.

After reading this thread I am very dissapointed at some of the responses.

Originally posted by Alex042
PHP-Nuke is available on Cpanel servers even without Fantastico as an install if they have it enabled. While you're waiting for your host to fix Fantastico, you could look for this other copy of PHP-Nuke to see if it's there and available in addition to the Fantastico version.

Im just assuming, but the host probably disabled the CPanel version with the addition of Fantastico.

Originally posted by mesopia(Jay)
Im just assuming, but the host probably disabled the CPanel version with the addition of Fantastico.

Actually, you need to go in and enable these "Addon Scripts" within WHM if you want them to appear to your end users. I imagine if the have Fantastico installed, they never bothered even turning them on. :-)

Take care,

Brian

There seems to be quite a few mixed opinions on this.

I would agree with those saying that support for the installation of any Fantistico software should be provided. If a client tried to use the add-on domain feature and it didn't work, would you support that? If a client tried to add an email account and got an error would you support that? If a client tried to use a Fantastico script would you not help with the installation(only) of that?

All are available in Cpanel and as such they should be supported. Attempting to pick and choose what features you will support in CPanel is unreasonable IMO. You support CPanel or you don't...

I agree that most hosts don't offer support for 3rd party software, however lets face it, hosting companies are in business for a reason.

I figure that best way to grow a business is help your clients grow their businesses. If offering helpful suggestions about third party apps helps them to achieve their goals - though it may not be guarenteed in your companies TOS - the only winner in the end is the hosting company.

There are other theads going currently about how helpful a hosting company should be to be considered supportive so I won't rehash that in this thread, however I will say that the more competative this industry becomes the more service and support will be a determining factor in which companies thrive and which companies stagnate.

The consensus in this thead may be you shouldn't expect your host to help you unless the situation is as blue27 describes its, however I would say if you're not happy with the level of support you receive, find a company that works with you not against you.

Cheers
Jeff

I can not believe that a hosting company would take such a stance. How difficult is it to look into why Fantastico is not working and try to fix it. If the owner has any ability to work on his systems, then he should be able to fix it in a relatively short timeframe.

I also think the replies were very unprofessional. I would never send something like that to my own customers.

At one time, I hand installed PHPNuke for a client just so he could play with it. Who knows, it might make him curious and maybe he will start looking into how it works.

That is exactly how I learned PHP. I got interested in PHPNuke and eventually starting tweaking the code. Before long, I had written a complete PHP/MySQL website of my own. It may not be the best code, but I could not have done it if someone hadn't initially installed PHPNuke for me to play with.

It seems the question on support here is how far do you support what is installed and provided on that server? It seems that if you provide a service that it should work. In this example, the responsibility of the host should be to ensure that Fantastico will install a working copy of the script. Whereas, any configuration, tweaks, or add-on modules shouldn't be the responsibility of the host unless they specifically offer such services.

Originally posted by Watcher_TVI
There seems to be quite a few mixed opinions on this.

I would agree with those saying that support for the installation of any Fantistico software should be provided. If a client tried to use the add-on domain feature and it didn't work, would you support that? If a client tried to add an email account and got an error would you support that? If a client tried to use a Fantastico script would you not help with the installation(only) of that?

All are available in Cpanel and as such they should be supported. Attempting to pick and choose what features you will support in CPanel is unreasonable IMO. You support CPanel or you don't...

Exactly. Very well put. If you advertise it as an offering, and/or you provide it for your clients you should support it.

If you don't support something, you need make it extremely clear that it isn't supported before people buy, or you could be baiting and switching. Not a good way to get and keep customers. :-)

Take care,

Brian

Originally posted by mesopia(Jay)
Most hosts do not offer support for 3rd party products (Fantastico is a 3rd party product) so like your host suggested, you can visit the maker of the scripts website and download and install it. Support for installation should be obtained from the maker of the product unless it is a server issue, at that point in time, the host should be obligated to help you.

However, personally I would have just installed it for you and not closed the ticket without a resolution.

I second this :)

Kudos to Watcher_TVI for contacting me and helping me get this up and running. That really went above and beyond. Next beer's on me. :beer:

Originally posted by xunil37
Kudos to Watcher_TVI for contacting me and helping me get this up and running. That really went above and beyond. Next beer's on me. :beer:

That was nice of Watcher_TVI! :)

If something is advertise and use as a plus or bait, you should support it.