I am not an animal activist or anything, but this just made me sick. When you think you are doing something good for your pet and then you find out this:

http://iamscruelty.com/

They are being investigated and accused of some pretty bad things by PETA. Shame on you IAMS.
:mad:

You believe PETA?

I don't.. hippies. :D

I tend to agree. PETA is one of the biggest reasons people tend to ignore animal suffering, or rather the societies against it. They go about it wrong. It's like believing the ELF is good for the environment when they torch a car dealership.

You can also add eukanuba<sp?> to the list who is also is also owned by Proctor and Gamble who also makes a ton of other things they make from Dish Soap to Tampons :)

I have to agree with akashik and LifelessHost unfortunately. PETA is such an extremist group of idiots, I don't put any credence into what they say.

You have to give them some credit for actually acting on something they believe in.

Most people are too easy to critize people/groups that take action in something they're passionate about.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not talking car bombs or paint on fur, just helpless little animals.

IMO :)

I just saw a story on a local TV station this morning about Iams. One of the representives refused comment to the reporter.

I was looking through the list of thier recommend food suppliers. Notice how most are holistic types. I also notice none of the food suppliers my vet recommends is on the list.

If you want to learn the really nasty stuff about dog food thier is a good book that describes in detail how it is made and also how it is made outdside of the US. I'll try and find the link.

Originally posted by twastudios
You have to give them some credit for actually acting on something they believe in.

Most people are too easy to critize people/groups that take action in something they're passionate about.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not talking car bombs or paint on fur, just helpless little animals.

IMO :) http://www.hamptonroads.com/pilotonline/opinion/op0206dou.html

Bunch of idiots...

So, you people think it's okay how animals are treated in the videos they have? Hmm...

I would like to point out that Iams/Eukanuba and many other commercial brands of food have been found to have pretty serious toxins in them. BHA, BHT, and ethoxyquin that have been shown to cause cancer in pets. But the more disturbing one is sodium pentobarbital is found in pet food and it does not degradate during the cooking process. It's the same stuff that is used to euthanize dogs and cats, for good reason. It COMES from dogs and cats that are "recycled" into the pet food.

I'd advise anyone feeding their dog or cat commercial kibble to research some about the ingredients.

Originally posted by AudioA
So, you people think it's okay how animals are treated in the videos they have? Hmm...



If you look at the videos you will notice the camera is shut off and on alot so it makes you wonder were this is being taped at. IMO i think that is a animal shelter,i mean there is no proof that them dogs are are located in laboratories.

Now they're using donkeybombs... I do wonder about al-PETA though...

If I had smoke coming out of my ears and PETA told me I was on fire I'd have a hard time believing them. They are about as pro animal, anti human as a group could possibly be.

They are fighting now to get a law passed that we can't "own" dogs. We can only take care of them. No animal should be owned. What crap. When my dog can go out and get a job and buy his own doghouse then he can make the rules. But in my house I make the rules.

If disecting a labratory rat can find a cure for cancer then do it. But PETA is against that. I know there is animal cruelty out there and someone has to watch out for it, but PETA goes way to far in doing that. There are many,many examples you can find where PETA has been extremely radical in thier behavior.

I'd advise anyone feeding their dog or cat commercial kibble to research some about the ingredients. So, so true and not just for cats and dogs. Just because it's sold in a pet store, doesn't mean it's safe for pets. I purchase the majority of my pet food online to help ensure I'm giving my pets exactly what they need. I have found very few shelf foods worth purchasing. The most popular brands are often times the worst :( Though if I must buy off the shelf for my dog I do usually go with a specific type of Eukanuba ....

Peta aside.... it's always wise to really research what you're offering your pets and this involves first researching what the PET Requires...not what "looks and smells great" to the humans...

As far as animal cruelty... yes I'm vehemently against it!!! Just this past Friday we brought a second dog into our home. She was dumped off in front of a Pet Supermarket on Sept 1st of this year. She's about a year old. She's a German Shepherd / Golden Retriever mix. Anyone who has the slightest idea of what those two types of dogs looks like would be astonished to hear that our new dog was only 16 lbs when she was dumped...she was also severely beaten and had her ear split open more than half way up the "floppy part".

After two weeks of serious medical care, and a well balanced diet we were able to bring her home. We named her Chelsea. She's now 45lbs meaning when you pet her you can still feel every bone in her body...but she looks a hell of a lot better than she used to! As long as all goes well she'll be a good 65 to 75 lbs in no time at all where she needs to be. BTW..I'm attaching a picture that was taken of her this weekend ;)

I'm a person who takes in all sorts of 'needy' animals so my cat and my other dog both have similar stories. I also have 8 turtles that were also seriously injured, starving, or otherwise at-risk of death when they came to me.

When you see it up close and personal....
When you're the one that has to "hurt the animal" to help it (shots, scrubbing wounds, force feeding etc)
And when you're the one who gets to see what fantastic animals they are once they are well....you're damn straight you begin to fight hard for the helpless and support those who are fighting against the cruelty.

I only wish PETA, with all of their funding, would use it to stomp on the "normal abuse" that's happening around us everyday more than they are using it to get their name in the limelight for "less serious" issues...

I'm against puppy paws getting hurt in bars too, but I've seen so much worse...and I see perps of the far more abused animals walking the streets w/o a care in the world. PETA likes attention and aggressiveness -- I prefer education and accountability...

In the end... if every person who doesn't like PETA would step up to the plate and help out one of these animals that are readily obtainable and seriously in need of your attention and/or report someone you know is neglecting or abusing their own pets... well... I guess then we'd be making more progress today than PETA has made all year long and with a lot less money than PETA has...

Gaaahhhh... I'm rambling... sorry. I'm just a bit passionate about the animals...especially this year because we've been through A LOT with them... I'll hush now ;)

Originally posted by PapillonHost
I would like to point out that Iams/Eukanuba and many other It's the same stuff that is used to euthanize dogs and cats, for good reason. It COMES from dogs and cats that are "recycled" into the pet food.

That was what I mean by nasty stuff. I think this process is under change now. Some states now have regulations on how and where the remains of animals are dealt with.

Deb I agree that PETA could more efficiently and effectively fight animal abuse. Thier big glory causes and tactics now render them less respected with the images of nuts or whackos. With the financial resources great results could happen by just educating pet owners and helping to establish low cost programs.

I have volunteered for local animal rescue groups for over six years and have seen much worse than one that site. While I do not want to see any animal cruelty, sometimes you have to fight the battles with the largest outcome.

Hmm... I'm against Animal Abuse. Human Society, Vet Association of America (or however it's called), PETA, and a quite a few "pro animal" organizations are proven 100% pro animal abuse, dispite their false apperances.

So no thanks, I know for a fact that PETA is pro animal abuse, so blah.

Originally posted by dapon
They are fighting now to get a law passed that we can't "own" dogs. We can only take care of them. No animal should be owned. What crap. When my dog can go out and get a job and buy his own doghouse then he can make the rules. But in my house I make the rules.


I couldnt agree with you more :stickout: .


I wonder who is the owner in the PETA houses.. the dogs or them. :rolleyes: I can see it now.....

Bark Bark... yes master sorry I will get your food faster

Bark.. Here you go sir please dont bite me again

....

:eek:

I dispise people who are cruel to any animal (expept maybe possums) but PETA in my book, shouldn't be the voice for anti-animal abuse. Some of them are so far off in left field that they hold protests here about not eating meat and saving the cow...but you look at their feet and they are wearing Nike shoes or loafers all made from leather.....go figure.

that's just my lil rant on them...didn't mean to offend or hijack the thread.

Originally posted by AudioA
So, you people think it's okay how animals are treated in the videos they have? Hmm... You can't possibly be that simplistic, I can dislike PETA for their moronic views without advocating animal cruelty.

Bunch of idiots...

MDJ2000,

I will graciously assume that was meant for the "PETA" idiots and not my post, although you quoted it.

After reading that story, I would see where people would think that they are extreme in choosing animal life over human life.

I am not sure about animal lives over human lives, but I would definilty chose trees before any of the above.

Originally posted by twastudios
MDJ2000,

I will graciously assume that was meant for the "PETA" idiots and not my post, although you quoted it.

After reading that story, I would see where people would think that they are extreme in choosing animal life over human life. You are correct, I was refering to the link I posted when calling them idiots. I only quoted your post because I thought you may be interested in why many people view them so negatively. Appologies for the misunderstanding.

Appologies for the misunderstanding.

No worries. My bad :)

My wife is a devoted member of the ASPCA (http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer) who are nothing like PETA.

We donate money every year and take part as an active member.

Sasha,

Are you from Oregon?!?

Animals have been used by humans forever. Food, clothing, tools, etc. I have no qualms with leather, a big juicy steak, or animal testing (sorry but it DOES improve medicines/etc so sorry little bunny, have some more mascara).

However abuse isn't right, and when an animal is killed it should be humane as possible.

People who keep animals, should only keep them if they can care for them and give them a proper home.

Some of the worst cases of abuse I've seen were animal ACTIVISTS, I know of one such vehement anti animal abuse activist if you were hanging on one side of a bridge about to fall, and a dog on the other, she'd save the dog first, and make sure it was ok, before helping you. However she has SO MANY dogs she's rescued, they need rescuing from her! Filthy conditions in her yard, it's so full of dogs it's nothing but a mud pit, no grass grows there, and the smell of crap and urine back there is atrocious, and her house? I can't say for sure I only PEEKED in and the smell knocked me back to the porch, I didn't even DARE venture into that.

Gary, those are the type that need to be reported. For the health and safety of both the humans and the dogs. Often times they care so much that they become overwhelmed and don't know how to solve the problem. That's were animal control can step in and help to solve it by removing many of the animals to assist in a better quality of life for all involved.

I searched the ASPCA site and almost thought that it was an actual organization against cruelty to animals until I looked on this page:

http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=dogcarehealth

Under "Neutering". They are pro animal abuse, neutery/spaying/altering is another form of abuse. And I was quite suprised that this "American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals" are pro animal abuse :( :( :(

Other then that, they look, ok.

Some freinds of mine have rescued river otter babies in floods, a horse injured in road accident, cows entangled in barbed fences. My mother feeds a couple of hungry stray pups and avoid stepping on ants and insects.My family has been vegetarians for generations because of traditions and also as a choice remain so even today. We dont have to take extreme attitudes to be what we want to be.

In my observations animals are very innocent and have deep emotions like humans......they are almost like children. The animals have to be respected and not exploited just because they are not as intelligent or capable as humans. Man using animals for food and other purposes for his existence is quite natural but undue cruelty to animals is not warranted. Respect for any kind of life whether plant life or animal life or human life and preservation of nature should be in everyone.

Hmm, I'm going to have to agree with RajanUrs with this one.

Maybe ASPCA ought to teach them old dogs some new tricks.....by giving them condoms and birth control pills. lol

Doesn't neutering also keep animals.. uhm.. friendlier? I would be against it but if it has any advantages toward it AND they don't do it while the pups awake..

As for insects, I have a fear of them, so I can't comment really.

I recently became a vegetarian myself. I believe that we were made to be able to eat anything, hence we have a choice. Once in a while meat is okay, since it is healthy for us, but to eat it daily and endorse places that breed mass amounts so that people can have a McChicken or something for $2.. blah.

neutery/spaying/altering is another form of abuse. Egads.... :rolleyes:

If Max (my rottweiler) had not have been neutered and Chelsea (our new shepherd/retriever mix) had not have been spayed...The poor girl would have been pregnant before she was even well enough to care for a litter and I would have 6 to 10 more dogs in need of a home.

Just as we don't like some of the PETA extremes I think stating that spay and neutering is abuse is rather extreme.

I'm hoping that was sarcasm though ;)

Nope, definately not sarcasm. Heh, I've been through the ringer (?) on this subject and know how it goes :) If people want a male and female dog, then those owners should actually be responisble owners and not take the easy way out by abusing thier pets.

Have a yard? When the female is in heat or nearing that time, keep the male outside or just the opposite.

You know? There are many advantages to spaying a female child! We should spay all of our girls before they hit puberty.

Responsible pet owners train the animals, and actually take responsible actions from getting their pets pregnant. It's not hard, it's not rocket science either.

If a pet owner cannot or will not be responsible pet owners, then they have no business owing pets. Abusing an animal is an easy way out. School bullies are know to do that to their classmates. *shrugs*

Let the postings begin. I've been through this before and know what Im talking about :) Owned pets on both the farm, and in crowded downtown areas..

Originally posted by RajanUrs
Maybe ASPCA ought to teach them old dogs some new tricks.....by giving them condoms and birth control pills. lol

Or... ASPCA should actually be what they claim to be :)

Fare enough... I wont argue with someone who chooses not to spay or neuter their dogs and cats as long as I never see the kittens and puppies from this decision on the streets or in the shelters at any point in time of their life. I also hope you are able, as a responsible breeder, to follow the line of any young that has been produced under your care if you ever needed to prove that none have ended up back in the shelters or on the streets. I do believe there are very responsible breeders out there and in those cases... more power to them.

For the majority however (especially those of us who have seen the males mount the females even when it's not "that time") I do believe it is an excellent idea.

I plan to care for both of these dogs for the entire duration of their life and I have no intentions of raising ten or more of their puppies nor could I guarantee good homes would be found for all of them especially with their pure bred mutt status. Therefore, rather than putting myself and them through the stress of "not being allowed" I've solved the problem in their sleep, they don't seem to mind, and yes...they still have the joy of a "good mount" when they feel like it :D I betcha my male dog is smiling more than the one being told "No!" :stickout:

I have been raising dogs, cats, horses, cows, sheep, goats, ergh, since I was 15. Thats about... damn im old.. 10 years now. I have that much experience with animals, and all of that time with dogs and cats.

On a side note, which is interesting. Did you know that side humping is a dominance gesture? We care's for my Mom's dog while she was down south. This is a 90 pound black lab/rott mix, been neutered due to the local "Humane Society" policies. Anyways, he is the sweetest thing on 4 legs, just absolutely loves my 1yo daughter.

Anyways, our female dog Leeloo, is a husky/german shepard mix. She saw him and humped the poor guy on the side. Monty just looks over and walks away..go figure. I know who wears the pants in the animal family.

As for the breeding part, I'm currently not a breeder, or at least not for another 3 years.

Did you know that side humping is a dominance gesture? Yes... and it seems this tiny tiny female is dominant over our much larger male rotty form both the side and the backside... ahhh puppies... so much too learn :P

ahh puppies are soo cute :) They are about a year off between the two :) Never had unwanted breeding during my 10 year stint :) But then again, Im used to stress, if it could be called that.

Originally posted by Shannara
You know? There are many advantages to spaying a female child! We should spay all of our girls before they hit puberty.
What was that flying by me? Oh, that was your credibility, children are not equal to dogs and cats. Besides, humans have reason and can exert control, whereas animals will mate simply because it is biology even though they cannot provide for their offspring. I can't believe I'm even debating this... no offense

I'm curious to know WHY neutering a companion animal is considered "cruelty," Shannara. One look at the puppy mill/backyard breeder trade is enough to convince me that by and large, the cruelty is allowing irresponsible or evil people to have unneutered animals.

Originally posted by Shannara

You know? There are many advantages to spaying a female child! We should spay all of our girls before they hit puberty.


God we're on the same page there.

Welfare would be a thing of the past.

The ONLY way to make sure a female dog doesn't get bred is to put her in box with no possibility of digging out, fence? seen 'em jumped and climbed over, and dug under. Seen females dig out from a shed, seen 'em scratch until a door was just about shredded.

Hence why I only have male dogs and they get to keep their balls, they can't get pregnant anyway.

Cats? Nature takes care of those, breed all you want the foxes and coyotes and hawks will take care of any extras. I only have outside cats and I don't feed 'em, so if there's enough food running or flying around to sustain more cats, then fine, more cats it is, else they get hungry and leave for greener pastures.

Originally posted by PapillonHost
I'm curious to know WHY neutering a companion animal is considered "cruelty," Shannara. One look at the puppy mill/backyard breeder trade is enough to convince me that by and large, the cruelty is allowing irresponsible or evil people to have unneutered animals.

Neutering is evil! Let the boy keep his balls, he can't drop no puppies no way that's for the unspayed animals :)

Besides a neutered pitbull won't fight :(

Originally posted by Dixiesys
Neutering is evil! Let the boy keep his balls, he can't drop no puppies no way that's for the unspayed animals :)

Besides a neutered pitbull won't fight :(

My little boy is missing his, he knows no difference. There are too many dogs running around in Alabama for me to want to let him keep them, and New Orleans isn't much better. Besides, he'd be miserable anytime there was a female in heat within scent range - and even though they're not SUPPOSED to be there, at the agility field, a female in heat with intact dogs is bad.

The only dogs I won't neuter will be my show dogs.

I'm hoping the dog fight comment was a joke.

Originally posted by PapillonHost
My little boy is missing his, he knows no difference. There are too many dogs running around in Alabama for me to want to let him keep them, and New Orleans isn't much better. Besides, he'd be miserable anytime there was a female in heat within scent range - and even though they're not SUPPOSED to be there, at the agility field, a female in heat with intact dogs is bad.

The only dogs I won't neuter will be my show dogs.

I'm hoping the dog fight comment was a joke.

It's nature's design that your dog have a good healthy set of testicles.

It's also nature's way that pitbulls fight, who am I to trifle with nature?

Yes there's some not so thinly veiled sarcasm floating around in some of my comments.

Originally posted by Dixiesys
It's also nature's way that pitbulls fight, who am I to trifle with nature?


Touchy subject. I've seen the fighting pit bulls. My breed of dog often gets purchased and used as bait for the fighting pit bulls.

But hey, if I'm messing with nature by removing my dog's testicles, there are now testicle implants for dogs (they're called Neuticles).

Actually, pit bulls are not a natural breed and were bred long ago to be the type of dog that they currently are. :)

*bows*

The only "natural" breed is a somewhat mid sized dun coloured dog with prick ears and a curled tail. Left to their own devices, dogs would return to this within just a few generations. But humans, like with everything else, decided to intervene :)

So,
What this thread has taught me so far is that the pictures of a stack of bleeding dogs could very well have been taken at an animal shelter (the ASFH AKA "Animal Shelter From Hell" I guess) and that neutering dogs and cats, therefore sparing their progeniture a miserable life as stray animals in our cities or euthanasia is a cruel act.

Some people should really stick to web hosting, or whatever activity keeps them quiet.

I was wondering if I was the only one to actually, oh, READ the link Shannara posted a while back, to the ASPCA.

From that very page, regarding neutering:


Females should be spayed (ovaries and uterus removed) and males neutered (testicles removed) by six months of age. Spaying before maturity significantly reduces the risk of breast cancer, a common and frequently fatal disease of older female dogs. Spaying also eliminates the risk of pyometra (an infected uterus), a very serious problem in older females that requires surgery and intensive medical care. And spaying protects your female pet from having unwanted litters. Neutering males prevents testicular and prostate diseases, some hernias and certain types of aggression (which differ from protectiveness, which this surgery won't affect).


Right. Let's take this step-by-step shall we?

Spaying a female:

1. Significantly reduces the risk of breast cancer
2. Eliminates the risk of pyometra
3. Protects your female pet from having unwanted litters

Neutering males:

1. prevents testicular and prostate diseases
2. prevents some hernias and certain types of aggression

Is this abuse? Well if so, then I'm 100% guilty, and so are animal protection agencies around the world - our very own (and VERY well respected) RSPCA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) among them.

I have two female cats. Both rescue cats. Both were spayed by the RSPCA centre we bought them from. Both are healthy, and were equally healthy when we acquired them. Both are well-loved. And I would like them both to be around for a hell of a long time. Is that cruel? To have the chance of cancer and pyometra greatly reduced?

Neutering as abuse? For christs sake.


Some people should really stick to web hosting, or whatever activity keeps them quiet.


Couldn't agree more.

Least PETA have the guts to stand up for what they believe. Most people are scared to do that. I respect PETA.

If you think it is okay to kill an innocent Animal, that is capable of feeling that pain, and expect to live a life free from torture and things PETA do....think again! AN EYE FOR EYE.....that's how PETA see it. Don't call them crazy. You people are the ones crazy if you don't have compassion on another being that breaths just like you.

I don't agree with Neutering. I understand why people do it and it's cool. They are protecting their pets. Least they care. I would never do it....I believe my Cats have a right to have babies if they wanted to. It's their body....not mine. I didn't create them so I wouldn't take away what their Creator gave them.

I feel we should also "neauter" males and female humans....too many innocent children in this world that starve daily.

Originally posted by web_hostone
I don't agree with Neutering. I understand why people do it and it's cool. They are protecting their pets. Least they care. I would never do it....I believe my Cats have a right to have babies if they wanted to. It's their body....not mine. I didn't create them so I wouldn't take away what their Creator gave them.

I feel we should also "neauter" males and female humans....too many innocent children in this world that starve daily.

You've taken away their freedom by keeping them as pets, but you draw the line at making sure the animals don't have unwanted babies. You got some fabulous logic going on. It's ok to keep them as a possession but I wouldn't want to take away their right of bringing yet more into the world by having them spayed or neutered.

As to your second paragraph, there's too many people in the world already, people unable to properly provide shouldn't have kids.

I have 2 cats and a dog, all of which have been altered, the 2 cats were already done as they were aspca/humane society rescues and the dog we had done by choice. As a child my parents adopted every stray cat that came by, at one point we had 13 indoor cats, some would have more babies, is this the way it should be? I think not... I'll stop spaying and neutering when I don't hear about a litter of cats being dropped off in the woods near my parents home...

Hold on, Dixiesys. I have taken away there freedom as pet? How? I treat all 2 of my Cats and 3 of Dogs just like children. So basically....my Animals have the same rights as you and me in my household. They are so loyal and deserves to be treated right.

Can't have your cake and eat it too, either you're keeping them as pets or they're free to come and go as they please.

Are your animals free to come and go as they please?

Cats for example, I don't keep as pets, I often HAVE cats, but only because they choose to hang around, I will keep some food out for them, make sure there's fresh water to be had, and a nice warm dry place for them to sleep (not in the house, cats do not come in my house). If they choose to stay around my house, fine, if not, no problem.

I have pets but in the case of cats I couldn't call any cats I keep a pet because they're not forced to stay here but hey, if they choose to (and in the process kill the birds and chipmunks and rats and mice) then great.

You're trying to profess how you're so ethical but fact is you're keeping pets, if your dog isn't FORCED to stay with you, aka no fence, no leash, no chain, then keep on preaching, but looks to me like you're keeping pets and that's no more unfair to them than getting them spayed and/or neutered.

Also someone mentioned locking up a dog in heat, HAVE YOU EVER LOCKED UP A BITCH IN HEAT? it's AGONY on them, they howl, they whine, they scratch till their toenails are bloody nubs, yeah getting a dog spayed is cruel but shutting one up for a week isn't.

PREACH ON I'm listening, and laughing.

OK...that made no sense Dixie. What about children? Guess you have taken away their freedom to? When you have a Animal as a baby and you let them stay with you....that's not forcing. That's a baby Animal. Do you want me to let the baby Animal out and be free and get lost or hurt? I have had all my Animals since they were babies. I let them stay with me...because if I DON"T the pound will get them and later they will "kill" them. I don't believe in the killing of anything so if forcing an Animal to stay with me is what I am doing... in order to protect the Animal from death.....I am guilty.

Also.....to the question...do I let the Animals go as they please. No way....here in Georgia...the pound will get an Animal they see on the street and later "kill" them if no one adopts them. Is that what you want for those Animals you let "go as they please"

Good, I'm glad. PETA=bunch of losers with nothing else to do.

http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html

Anyone who likes peta can feel free to complain at cpq@linuxmail.org. Toodles.

But it's NOT ok to spay/neuter them so they won't have anymore babies, babies you'll either have to keep yourself as adults or find homes for (god how many "free kittens" ads is there in the paper?).

Kids are given their freedom when they're of legal age. Just try and keep a child with you after they feel they're old enough to be on their own. If they're over 18 there ain't damn thing you can do about it. Oh and in case you haven't noticed your pets aren't your babies, they're pets, animals. You didn't have sex with your partner to create them, someone sold/gave them to you.

You're just being hypocritical, saying it's ok to keep a pet but not ok to make sure that pet doesn't have offspring, but it's OK to lock up a bitch in heat but it's cruel to get her spayed.

Where do you draw the line, so you are against animals being killed so if someone drops a litter of kittens in your yard, you will, instead of turning them over to the pound/animal control, keep them all and try and find them homes, or just keep them all, period? Heck what's your address I know someone right now trying to get rid of some kittens I'll send them your way. They also are against spaying their cat so they have litters of kittens to give away 2 or 3 times per year, the fact that the poor cat is being drug down to skin and bones by pushing out babies as fast as nature will allow isn't "cruel" but getting her spayed is.

Love the hypocrisy keep it coming.

Originally posted by dapon


If disecting a labratory rat can find a cure for cancer then do it. But PETA is against that. I know there is animal cruelty out there and someone has to watch out for it, but PETA goes way to far in doing that. There are many,many examples you can find where PETA has been extremely radical in thier behavior.

I agree. PETA makes it sound like we kill rats for nothing. Do I have to remind that the HUMANS agree for their body to be used for science when they die? I think it's a pretty good blance. Yes, we do use lab rats for tests, but people also agree for their body to be used. If you're dead why wouldn't you want your body to be used for some important discoveries? It's not like you'll be needing your body.

Originally posted by web_hostone
Also.....to the question...do I let the Animals go as they please. No way....here in Georgia...the pound will get an Animal they see on the street and later "kill" them if no one adopts them. Is that what you want for those Animals you let "go as they please"

I live in the county, you couldn't get animal control to come out here over a cat if you forced them at gunpoint. They'll only come out here for dogs if they're killing something (my chickens for example :angry: )

My dog runs loose quite a bit too if anyone complained he'd stay in the fence.

Sigh.

I don't get why people buy special food for dogs and cats. When my friends and I had dogs we would just feed them whatever we eat. The dogs lives for a VERY long time. I don't get the point of buying them food that they probably don't like. Throw a pieace of steak and the dog will be smiling. Dogs don't live very long so make his life happy.

OK....Can you read? I didn't say it was not ok to spray and neuter a Cat. I said I just wouldn't do it. I said I understand why people do it. Dang did you even read my post? GO back and look at it.

To the statement pets are not my babies....who said they were? I refer to them as babies....because that's what a baby Animal is...I didn't say he/she was my baby....did I?

OK....when did I say it was ok to lock up an Animal in heat? Please show me this. Look at all my post and show me where I said this.

"This page is about me and why everything I like is great. If you disagree with anything you find on this page, you are wrong."

Thanks for the link krisrox, I needed that, today has been a long day and i needed to laugh at someone stupid :)

What a moron this guy is!

Originally posted by web_hostone
OK....Can you read? I didn't say it was not ok to spray and neuter a Cat. I said I just wouldn't do it. I said I understand why people do it. Dang did you even read my post? GO back and look at it.

To the statement pets are not my babies....who said they were? I refer to them as babies....because that's what a baby Animal is...I didn't say he/she was my baby....did I?

OK....when did I say it was ok to lock up an Animal in heat? Please show me this. Look at all my post and show me where I said this.

Ok long thread and I'm painting with a broad brush. I was aiming at those that do think it, guess you got caught as the target :)

I don't neuter my cats (and usually my dogs) but I will spay the females (good old double standard, boys don't get pregnant). Though I often let a female cat have 1 litter, though if she has too many I'll thin the litter down to 3 or 4 of the biggest/healthiest looking ones.

Originally posted by Shyne
I don't get why people buy special food for dogs and cats. When my friends and I had dogs we would just feed them whatever we eat. The dogs lives for a VERY long time. I don't get the point of buying them food that they probably don't like. Throw a pieace of steak and the dog will be smiling. Dogs don't live very long so make his life happy.

Yep they eat what we have leftover, and if that's not enough to keep them nice and healthy, I'll feed them just basic dog food, the cheap Wal Mart stuff that's more corn than anything, never seen a dog starve yet :) Though a few have gotten overweight :(

How about we neuter all male babies when they are born so we can reduce testicular cancer.

I don't understand how you can make a relation between animal babies and human babies. When a baby grows up they have the ability to leave on their own and provide for them selves. No matter how old a dog is it will always, mentally, be a baby. Dogs can't provide for them selves and that's that. If keeping an animal as a pet is worse than leaving an animal on the street, then I really don't know what to say. Also, who said that "pet" is a bad word? You making it sounds like "pet" is a slave. If you recall it is the people that provide for their pets. The pets are just there, they don't do anything by consume whatever we give. Only if I had that kind of life. :)

Originally posted by Dixiesys
Yep they eat what we have leftover, and if that's not enough to keep them nice and healthy, I'll feed them just basic dog food, the cheap Wal Mart stuff that's more corn than anything, never seen a dog starve yet :) Though a few have gotten overweight :(

It doesn't have to be left over. When I fed the dog I just gave him whatever I made and not what I had left on the plate.

I believe this is usually practiced in less richer countries, because in other small countries people can't really afford to feed their three pets with "special" commercial food for each one of them. They eat what we eat and they sure look happy. :)

Originally posted by MDJ2000
What was that flying by me? Oh, that was your credibility, children are not equal to dogs and cats. Besides, humans have reason and can exert control, whereas animals will mate simply because it is biology even though they cannot provide for their offspring. I can't believe I'm even debating this... no offense

Heh, debating is fun, and I can't believe on how far along this thread has become since I last checked/posted (on) it.

Dogs (and I must stress this) can be trained not to mate. Any real dog trainer knows this. I am not saying dog owners who have taken puppy/dog training classes. I am talking about real dog trainers that do dog training for a day job and have first hand experience with the mentality of dogs.

I am going to focus on dogs here as I have most experience with them when concern to training and breeding. With heavy training daily, a (unabused/altered) male dog will look the other (or most likely at you) when a female dog in heat walks past him.

The main problem would be the female dog as they are so much harder to train, why? After the act of being ..ahh .. humped (oh pardon my horrible language:( ), they experience a relaxation, which is all the wile pleasent after the muscles being bunched up during her period.

It's not like that for male dogs. They do not go through the same. A female dog is in a few blocks radious, they smell that, they choose to react. It is not some mindless thing.

I know this for a fact as it has been proven to many times to count. Dogs, at least male, can be trained not to react to a female in heat. Females (as I current own some that are in heat at this moment, bah) can be trained to maul/attack any animal that tries to hump them .... this include other females... Granted if one of them got a lucky "quicky".. nothing is to stop that.... :)

I am not going to go into the specific between the genders of dogs. It would take too much typing, but if your interested in more information, I would be glad to provide.

And no, it was not a flyby comment, I believe it was for Deb? My credibility? If you want personal attacks, I can start in my next post. Just let me know.....

Originally posted by PapillonHost
I'm curious to know WHY neutering a companion animal is considered "cruelty," Shannara. One look at the puppy mill/backyard breeder trade is enough to convince me that by and large, the cruelty is allowing irresponsible or evil people to have unneutered animals.

If you think only evil people keep animals unneutered then you must think nature is evil. Oh wait, and if you think nature is evil, then you must be one of those people who do not care for nature, such as our forests, rivers, oceans, animal life. And since you do not believe in that, then you must be all for pollution and the slow killing of the Earth and animals (people included). See where this is heading? Your comment made no sense at all.

I believe tampering with nature is cruel, I also believe it is cruelity to break something that was never broken in the first place (circumcism (sp?) is the same way, cruely (and attempted murder in some cases) to infants), or to "fix" something that was never broken.

Of course this could be taken to the next level as domesticating animals is mean. Which could be considered true. Unfortunately I do not have a hand in that :(

I grew up in Indiana, on the farm where animals are breed to their hearts content. So "backwater breeders" we even have those up here in Alaska (Kake to be exact). I have contacts in Kake who are trying to find homes for such offsprings. Since we started this a year ago, I have helped get over 34 homes for such offsprings. Woop tee do.

Cruelity are those who do not take responsibility for their actions. "Altering" aka Abusing an animal is irresponsible, and so is mindless breeding.

I believe a lot of things can be learned from a person by their actions and their beliefs. If a person is irresponsible in one thing, then the probability is they are irresponsible in other things, thus may not be able to be trusted.

I'm not saying you, of course :) I'm just saying that is something to keep in mind...


Originally posted by Dixiesys
God we're on the same page there.

Welfare would be a thing of the past.

The ONLY way to make sure a female dog doesn't get bred is to put her in box with no possibility of digging out, fence? seen 'em jumped and climbed over, and dug under. Seen females dig out from a shed, seen 'em scratch until a door was just about shredded.

Hence why I only have male dogs and they get to keep their balls, they can't get pregnant anyway.

Cats? Nature takes care of those, breed all you want the foxes and coyotes and hawks will take care of any extras. I only have outside cats and I don't feed 'em, so if there's enough food running or flying around to sustain more cats, then fine, more cats it is, else they get hungry and leave for greener pastures.

I would say I love you, but Im married :D Seriously, we are a breed of people far and few between. I mean, how many people out there can seriously love nature? :)

I have two female and a male dog. All not abused. They are between 12 weeks to 1 1/2 years. They have gone into heat several times already (lucky me), the neighborhood dogs leave them alone (only some of the neighbor dogs are abused, not all, and those dogs (male) keep their distance). Our dogs get along great. The only issue when both females go into heat is when they get cranky with each other .. hmmm, but thats an easy fix (seperate).

As for a fense in yard. We have a nice bear fence that is over 4 feet under and 8 feet above. They have yet been able to escape. If you coup that with the "invis fence/collar", it helps quite a bit. The only down side is when bears roam outside the fence.....

As for your post below your first......

Pitbulls and all other "domesticated" dogs are not natural :( They are basically man made. So now their nature are man made, so does that make them natural? I so want a Dingo dog.. they rule..

And more posts.... :)

I have owned quite a bit of unabused female dogs. Only ONE have howled and pawed to be let outside when a male dog is nearby. No problem, let them out in the yard, and they are quite fine. All of my other female dogs did not have this issue. Then again, my other female dogs were not a cockerspaniel (sp?).



----------------------------
cyansmoker:

This thread taught you that? If you got that from this thread, then you must of skimmed over it. LOL!

As for your quote. I have to add:

Those who wish to post, should learn to read and understand the thread before posting.

----------------------------
Zopester:

Yes, you are 100% guilty for not actually thinking about what you post and link and quote to/from.

By your own definition, you should be Altered, because heck, we don't want any unwanted babies in this world. Oh, and we want you to live a long life, and not be prone to cancer. Your funny.

For all the same reasons you have given, you should be altered, heck, everybody should be altered before reach puberty, please, use common sense here, it shouldn't be hard.

I'll go down the and fix your reasonings as fact should have them

Female:
1. If it's natural, fine. There are other ways to fight cancer, cruelty is not one of them.
2. Ditto
3. If you knew anything about dogs, and training them, this would not be a problem. So this is just an excuse for you.

Male:
1. See #1 for female
2. This depends highly on the breed and training. You should really study, own, and be a responsible dog owner. Any reputable dog owner knows this.

Cruel to have them around a long time? I never said that, if you have decided to read posts, which seems to be something beyond you, you would of seen I never said any of the sort. Abusing an animal is not only irresponsible but is cruel.

By the age of 12, most people know the difference between right and wrong, common sense. It seems to have skipped you.


------------------

This thread is getting way long, .. it's nice :D

OK, another quick comment, since some of you seem to be holier than thou and refering to altering as abuse, yet in the same post talking about your 8 foot fence, if you want to be technical and indeed not fix something that isn't broken then why contain your dogs, it isn't natures way. If you intend to point fingers, then the only true people to not be cruel to an animal are those that do not own domesticated pets, that let them run free as nature intended. And by the way, I think people should be altered if they have more than 1 child and an income of less than 16,000 / yr., lets just call that cruelty too (bringing a child into the world that you can not care for on your own) Edit: almost forgot, your invisifence / collar, that is highly un-natural, and would therefore by your definition be cruel...

In the state of Florida ALONE....

2,191 pets are killed every day, which equates to 91 pets an hour, and 1.5 pets a minute!

Overpopulation is the NUMBER ONE killer of dogs and cats in the United States with an estimated 6 to 8 Million pets being euthanized every year because of severe overpopulation.

(not so) Fun Fact: In six years, one female dog and her offspring can produce 67,000 puppies. A cat and her young can produce 420,000 kittens.

If we should fix the humans then fixing the dogs and cats is a no brainer. Interesting to note that about 10,000 humans are born every day in the United States alone. For each of these humans that are born about 15 dogs and 45 cats are born equating to about 600,000 puppies and kittens being born every day. If we keep up at this rate every single human would need to own at least 15 dogs AND 45 cats to successfully provide homes for all of the lil'ones born. That's 60 dogs and cats alone for every human. Meaning a married couple with two children would also need to be providing a proper home for 240 cats and dogs. If you're not currently properly housing at least 60 cats and dogs for every human living in your home, then you, in my not so humble opinion, have no right to accuse those who are trying to address the issue, humanely, of being animal abusers.

I myself have what some would consider "too many animals" in and around my home, but I come no where close to those requirements, nor could I, nor could the majority of people in this world.

Though I do not have a problem, as explained earlier in this post, with RESPONSIBLE BREEDING and RESPONSIBLE POPULATION CONTROL, I do very much so have a problem with the promotion, or even implied promotion, of not spay and neutering these animals to a community you are not readily available for ensuring their dogs and cats are "properly trained to honor abstinence" (which can be seen as unnatural in and of itself). It is cruel to these animals to accuse those who are trying to keep them from ending up in shelters, ultimately euthanized, of being abusers.

It is irresponsible to influence young or untrained minds in such a way that implies spay or neutering to be a form of abuse in such a way that may cause them to become part of the problem rather than the solution. It's no secret that the majority of people will not be able to train their dogs and cats to ignore nature's call prior to nature's call succeeding.

In no way shape or form is the responsible act of a spay or neuter abuse. For anyone to call it that, and receive any validation for their feelings, then they must also consider the creation of an unnatural creature abuse (as is the case with the majority of our domesticated cats and dogs) as well as the act of domesticating them, therefore removing them from the wild, as abuse. Not to mention the use of vehicles, buildings, parking lots and the like abuse due to the removal of their wild environment. If this person agrees it is abuse, then they need to back up that belief by not promoting such activity by using the items which remove the environment, actively working to prevent more removal, never purchasing an unnatural animal etc etc etc etc.... "Practice what you preach..."

There is no room for wishy washy in this area. China had to enforce a law to control overpopulation of HUMANS and though many may not agree with the law (one child per family maximum) I guarantee you America, and other countries as well, would seriously consider the same law if our 10,000 babies a day were to rise to the 600,000 babies a day that cats and dogs are producing. So yes, if humans ended up with an equal birth rate of dogs and cats, I have no problem believing that we would be humanely handling ourselves in much the same way.

For ANYONE in this thread that claims to CARE about the well being of these animals... regardless of personal beliefs, do something to promote and praise those who are doing what they can to assist rather than insulting and arguing with a wishy washy belief system that only goes as far as the line you yourself choose to draw in the sand.

I repeat: Though some RESPONSIBLE pet owners may be able to successfully breed and/or control the population of their pets without the use of surgery, the decision to spay or neuter is NOT ABUSE and I strongly recommend putting NO STOCK nor validation to such a ridiculous statement.

p.s. In the amount of time that passed between Shannara's last post and my last post.... 66 more cats and dogs were killed just in my home state of Florida. 18,333 more puppies and kittens were born in the United States.

Please visit your local shelters to bring any home that you can successfully manage to care for.

Wonderfully worded Deb

Originally posted by Dixiesys
I don't neuter my cats (and usually my dogs) but I will spay the females (good old double standard, boys don't get pregnant). Though I often let a female cat have 1 litter, though if she has too many I'll thin the litter down to 3 or 4 of the biggest/healthiest looking ones.

First, does this really make sense in your own mind? Your males cats are free to roam and impregnate other female stray cats and further overpopulate the pet population. It's this same mentality that will continue to cause thousands of pets everyday to be euthanized at animal shelters.

More importantly, are you aware that it's a violation of federal law to kill a domestic pet unless the animal is suffering as a result of an accident, disease, physical incapacity or extreme age, or if the animal poses a threat to human health. You are committing a criminal act by 'thinning' the litter. I'm curious, instead of doing this bizarre and inhumane 'thinning' process over and over again, why not rescue kittens from an animal shelter if you want more cats?

Well see? There you go, you believe that not messing with nature is cruelty and ridiculous, and I agree that messing with nature is cruelty and ridiculous. That's a simple summary of this thread.

Deb I think you number may be low. The last time I saw the 6-8 million figure was two years ago by the HSUS. Also remember the number accounts for animals euthanized at shelters. I do not think that accounts for animal deaths that happen outside of the shelter or animals brought in to animal control for disposal.

I work with one local shelter that puts down 200+ animals a day in the summer. The director has to rotate euthanazia officers because the work is so deppressing.

While two sides exist to the altering issue. It all comes down to being responsability. To many pet owners are not responsable.

On a an odd side not. Las Vegas has one of the most successul spay/nueter programs in the country.

Well see? There you go, you believe that not messing with nature is cruelty and ridiculous, and I agree that messing with nature is cruelty and ridiculous. That's a simple summary of this thread. Shannara, I would have to request the same as you have requested if that is your summary. Please reread the thread in its entirety to ensure clarity and understanding. For I never said either one of those things was necessarily cruel. Quite the opposite. If you read what I was stating as that either "spay and neutering" or "the act of not doing so" was cruel, then you misread. For what I felt was cruel was not either of those actions but rather the action of irresponsible discussion, statements, and most importantly accusations.

Deb I think you number may be low. Sadly, I do believe you are correct.... and yes my numbers are older therefore they have likely become larger and they do not include numbers outside of participating shelters :(

Is it safe to eat Alpo? :D.

ROFLMAO!!!! Probably more so for humans than for animals ;)