This is partly me letting off steam, but also a valid topic of conversation....apologies in advance to anyone who finds it irrelevant.

Why is it that as programmers/designers/webmasters and so on, our time is supposed to be free to other people? I run a news site at the moment, and also have a sideline doing custom CGI work plus selling standard scripts. The number of times I get emails saying "Love xyz script, could I have the source code please?" or "I like this free script you offer, but could you customise this, this and this for me please" is unbelievable. But if I reply and say "Sure, though there will be a charge of $xx to cover some of the development time" I can guarantee that 95% of the time I never hear anything further.

Would these same people visit an attorney or an accountant and expect their services to be free? Of course not. So why are we the exception? Or am I the only one who gets this?

Would be interested in hearing other thoughts and experiences.

Speedie.

You're not the only one here. It's the 'freebie' mentality on the Net - if you get something for free, they expect to go the whole hog. Of course, this isn't supposed to be a generalisation, but I've seen it happen on many, many occasions.

Of course, one way to get around it is to just place a prominent notice on your site stating like : "Here are the scripts you want. However, I do NOT have the time to supply you with the source code, or provide help in any way. I will charge (insert ridiculous sum of money) amount per hour for any help required. You have been warned, and I will not respond to e-mails regarding the above."

That's worked effectively for a CGI developer I know. :)

*lol*

I've been thinking much the same myself lately. Last week I got an email from a guy wanting a 'community' site built. He showed me what he had so far, and straight off I was a little cagey (lots of stuff thrown together and stolen from other sites), but I figure ok - he's tried it and now realises it's not as easy as it looks.

Anyway he asks for a frameset navigation (top, left, main) with graphics built in. It's a straight fee with more added as he needs it for negotiable fees (I build, he pays, I build, he pays etc). I give him a price for the frameset and am told it all ok and the check is in the mail. Having recently had to drag someone over the coals to get a final payment, I decide to lay back and just draw up a sketch, leave it as a solid (smaller), graphic of poor quality and post it off to him for confirmation I'm in the right direction, explaining it's only a rough draft.

He emails me back saying it's great and go ahead, and by the way can you do this cgi thing? Sure I say - for a price... Next day I get a zip in the mail with the cgi script he's having trouble with, but no mention of prices. As it was just a matter of changing a .pl file to a .cgi file I fire off one back saying as much.

Anyway, two weeks later now, and no check. So far I'm down a couple of emails and about 2 hours in photoshop, so it's no biggie. Had I gone ahead and tried to do the RIGHT thing for this guy and got him a full frameset with all the html, navigation plus a few bells and whistles I had planned I would have been truly in the hole.

So yeah, you're right. They expect things for nothing just because you're through a computer screen, and you're making webpages or programs (not 'real' things apparently). The addage of 'Time Is Money' is true and never moreso than in this business. All those hours I sit on my ass making things for people who don't pay up, is time I could have been spending working on real clients. It's becoming more common too. It used to be people almost ALWAYS paid up, and paid on time. Maybe it's MP3's *lol* too many young kids online now that think the net is all free, all the time.

I feel like I'm becoming a bitter prick at times but often find myself having to say "As soon as the check arrives, I'll let you see something". Once explained why, most people are ok with it, and usually have plenty of stories of their own of missing payments and rip-offs. Also I work on a weekly rate now, whereas I used to just say "Pay me at the end of it, when you're happy". A lot of webdesigners *used* to do it that way too - not many do now, unless they don't need the money in the first place. *chuckle*

Also, people try to get extra things added for nothing all the time - another reason I'm weekly now. I used to get what they wanted done and quote them... Suddenly you start to get "I want you to do this too?" and not mention anything to do with pricing *again*. Now they can add all they want as it'll just mean the deadline blows out, and I get paid longer for it. *shrug*

Still, the good outweighs the bad and I love what I do. I managed to turn a hobby into a job, which most people would kill for (getting paid to enjoy myself). My client base at the moment is all return jobs, for new sites, or related to clients and trustworthy. The checks are coming in and I'm paid well for it. The fact I haven't slept in almost 60 hours, am dead tired right now, but STILL in front of the laptop doing my 'job' must say something. :)

Greg Moore
http://www.akashik.net

Goodness...

That WAS pretty long wasn't it *lol*. Time to log off for a while :)

Greg Moore
http://www.akashik.net

Originally posted by Speedie
This is partly me letting off steam, but also a valid topic of conversation....apologies in advance to anyone who finds it irrelevant.

Why is it that as programmers/designers/webmasters and so on, our time is supposed to be free to other people? I run a news site at the moment, and also have a sideline doing custom CGI work plus selling standard scripts. The number of times I get emails saying "Love xyz script, could I have the source code please?" or "I like this free script you offer, but could you customise this, this and this for me please" is unbelievable. But if I reply and say "Sure, though there will be a charge of $xx to cover some of the development time" I can guarantee that 95% of the time I never hear anything further.

Would these same people visit an attorney or an accountant and expect their services to be free? Of course not. So why are we the exception? Or am I the only one who gets this?

Would be interested in hearing other thoughts and experiences.

Speedie.

When the net first started there was this real spirit of give and take example Zone Alarm is free for personal use but businesses must pay ...now people seem to expect it and as with anything people demand more.

I find myself flooded the min I come online to help with this or that...Ive learned to set limits with people :)

I strongly belive in the spirt the net was founded on..its trying to keep the balance thats the issue.

Greg, totally sympathise. I was actually thinking about this last night before I tried to go to sleep (after over dosing on caffeine ;)). I keep thinking that it would show some 'generosity' if I said 'Just pay me at the end', but your point's basically scuttled that. What if someone takes advantage? Then I'd be out of time, money and what not.

So I've decided to instead demand a deposit up front. I usually quote them clearly explaining everything, and requesting a 25% deposit up-front. That way, I'm not out of pocket, they know they have to hold up their side and we can get moving. If they refuse, too bad. There's always other clients willing to pay for quality design work done on time.

And Dana, correct. Sometimes I wish the Net wasn't as big a phenomenon as it's been - that way we'd keep all the hogs off the Net :D

Greg, BC and Dana - it's good to know I'm not alone :)

What sparked the original post (said with the benefit of hindsight and several large coffees) was this email:

"I went to moreover for getting the script for news in one category. But you have done nice work of combining them into one cgi file. Is it possible for you to give me that news.cgi file?"

Reading between the lines, and probably completely unintentionally, the sender was actually saying:

"I went to Moreover.com and got the Javascript that lets me display one category of news. You've done a good job of creating a CGI script that will dynamically display the other 314 categories for practically no extra effort, and I like that idea. However I'm giving no consideration at all to the time and effort you put into writing that CGI script and think that you should give it to me free for no good reason other than that I asked you to".

You're all perfectly correct in that there's a "freebie" culture that's pervasive on the internet. All well and good, for example Greg had a hassle with some Javascript earlier and I was happy to help him out - for no charge. But that was *my* choice, Greg sure as hell didn't send me an email expecting me to help without payment. And I know that if I need something in return one day....you get the picture.

BC, I think you hit the nail right on the head when you said "There's always other clients willing to pay for quality design work done on time". Same with programming and any other type of work, there will always be a need for good services at a reasonable cost.

So...no more freebies unless I *give* them rather than having them practically *demanded* of me :p

Best wishes,
Speedie (the calmer version).

Speedie (hopefully the decaffeinated one),

You have to be careful adding your own interpretation to what others say. It distorts communication when you do so. It may very well have been someone expecting something for nothing, and there are other possibilities as well.

So many people help each other with no recompense required, that the person in question may be accustomed to thinking that way. Sometimes a person knows how to do something and it only takes a moment's work, so they gladly share it.

It may be a case where that person expected that you would quote a price once you saw the project and got an idea how much work was entailed (and maybe hoping there would be none).

Then again, there are always the cheapskates and freeloaders who expect everything for free (except their own services, of course). A pox upon them and their miserliness. ;-D

Tis good to give and receive. Anything else is unbalanced.

Duster,

Decaffeinated? Moi? Noooooo....you're thinking of someone else. Last time I went to give blood a bidding battle started between the Blood Transfusion Service and Starbucks ;)

(Small note here - I am actually banned from giving blood in the USA by the FDA because I come from England!!)

I agree that sometimes putting your own spin on things can distort the intended meaning, but...considering that I responded to that email with a very polite "Whilst I cannot give it away free of charge, I am more than willing to negotiate a fair price"...and further considering that I sent that reply less than 5 minutes after receiving the mail...and finally considering that it was nearly 10 hours ago and I haven't heard anything since...I draw my own conclusions.
A pox upon them and their miserliness. ;-D
LOL....and may their webhost forever be *****, and may they get English blood next time they need a transfusion :p

Speedie (the unclean one apparently)

Ive found since 1995 people have been able to obtain free services of ALL sorts, web design, graphic design, and hosting too....As long as people will still do things for free it does make it harder on ones that do charge, and yes time is a major factor isnt it!!?

I wonder if part of the problem is that people do not see your face. Maybe they forget that there are people sitting at the computers on the other end. In some cases it may also be that people new to the web and computers just don't understand the extent of what they are asking and the time commitment involved. I know that when someone asks for something they generally think that you have nothing better to do and that their request should come first. This is not always possible or reasonable of them.

I say do the best you can for everyone but don't forget that that includes doing the best thing for you.

Originally posted by angela
I wonder if part of the problem is that people do not see your face. Maybe they forget that there are people sitting at the computers on the other end. In some cases it may also be that people new to the web and computers just don't understand the extent of what they are asking and the time commitment involved. I know that when someone asks for something they generally think that you have nothing better to do and that their request should come first. This is not always possible or reasonable of them.

I say do the best you can for everyone but don't forget that that includes doing the best thing for you.

People do forget each of us behind the computer is a real person with *GASP* Feelings, needs and limitations.

I have an online friend who refuses to use an HTML editor she prides herself on using note pad (fine for a personal site) now she wants to get into design messages me every 10 seconds with "how do I" so I tell her, she messes it up and tells me Im wrong ARRRG..*Vent*Ive been online since 1995 on my old 386 (the only recently gave up the ghost Y2K killed it)I started with HTML soon after...it really really bugs me when a newbie tries to tell me Im wrong or someone that uses a WYSIWYG editor and knows no HTML at all that Im wrong *Stop Vent*

This was a good vent thread :P

Hey Dana,

Do you realize that the face you seem to love is cyanotic? Quick, call the paramedics. That poor little thing needs oxygen desperately (and maybe a transfusion)! :-D

Some people may forget that there is a person on the “other side of the screen.” However, I believe that more often they simply do not understand how time consuming getting something to work can be. We have had customers that really thought that we had an enormous library of stuff that we could pull from do anything. The case is that many things must be done from scratch.

I program in several different languages and I can tell you that it takes time. Each program has a different goal and needs to be programmed accordingly. Even though I have code from past projects, it almost never does exactly what is needed in the current project. The last database driven scripting project I worked on for a customer was done with PHP and MySQL and it took approximately 50 hours of work to complete.

In the end, I found that most people are more than willing to pay for time when they know what is involved.

Best regards,
Frank Rietta

Duster said:
That poor little thing needs oxygen desperately (and maybe a transfusion)! :-D

<--volunteers some of that highly infectious English blood. MWUHAHAHAHA.

At least this thread has accomplished a couple of things:

1) Everyone has had a good vent.

2) I feel less like a miserable old git.

Or worst case scenario, we're all miserable old gits together. Which is fine too ;)

Speedie (and his bell - "Unclean, unclean")

I take offence to the suggestion that we're all miserable old gits :angry: :D

Hopefully if someone wants a script written or something else major they will understand and pay appropriately. For me, since I don't program, it is the little to moderate things that add up. People want this and then that and although each little thing is not major, the total sum takes a lot of time and effort. It is hard to express how each "little" thing deserves compensation.

Just venting...not complaining really. :)

Call me ignorant - but what is a git (miserable, old, or otherwise)? :confused:

Bastard, tight-ass, moron, guy, etc. (you get the idea)

Please excuse the cussing :D

BC,

Thanks for the clarification - I think I get the idea now. :)

Git can also be used as a general term for an old guy or just a guy. But more often it's used in the ruder context. The British ppl around here can elaborate. ;)

A git is kinda somewhere in-between a "silly sausage" and the string of utterly unmentionable words that BC came out with :blush: hehehehe.

It's a mild insult, and usually reserved for old(er) people. Hence comedian Harry Enfield had 2 characters called "The Old Gits" who were nasty old men but in a cuddly kind of way.

Sound files of The Old Gits (and other Enfield characters)can be obtained from:

http://www.homefront.demon.co.uk/HEnf/harry.htm

Speedie (the honorary Brit around here)

ROFL!! British slang...I will definitely remember that one
Thanks BC and Speedie
:D

Originally posted by Speedie
Duster,

Decaffeinated? Moi? Noooooo....you're thinking of someone else. Last time I went to give blood a bidding battle started between the Blood Transfusion Service and Starbucks ;)

(Small note here - I am actually banned from giving blood in the USA by the FDA because I come from England!!)

I meant decaffeinated as in calmed down, relieved (you know what caffein does to kidneys and bladders).

I know what you mean about coffee. I have a rare blood type, AB Arabica and my patron saint is Juan Valdez.

To me, one of the greatest things about the Internet is it gave me a new source of Jamaican Blue Mountain coffee (on EBay).

Life without coffee isn't life at all, and certainly not worth living.

Ummm, coffee.

<Wistful sigh>...I miss a good cup of Nescafe Gold Blend. Just can't seem to find it over here. You're right of course Duster, life without coffee is like...Al Gore without hairspray.

Incidentally I really *am* banned from giving blood over here. FDA has banned all Brits from donating since the BSE (mad cow) scare :nuke:

Cow 1: I'm not afraid of this BSE thing.
Cow 2: Oh no, why's that then?
Cow 1: 'Cos I'm a tractor, silly.

Best wishes,
Speedie (your foaming-at-the-mouth-mad-as-a-fish-Brit-pal)

hehe, figured it would have been because of your crazy cows. At least that's what they're telling you anyway *lol*

Well as stated by a few other people since I last checked out this thread it's nice not to feel alone in the general feeling of 'us Vs them' as it were. Still I don't actually think it's just net related business either anymore. A few days ago I was having this exact same conversation with a client (minus the mad cows, blood transfusions, and coffee addictions *lol*). He makes and sells Billiard Tables (some up to $12000 worth!) and has a factory full of people hand building them. He's been doing to for about 20 years or so, and was happy to give me some advise.

"Get as much money up front as you can"

Even 'IRL' with a bricks and mortar business and people meeting him face to face everyday, he still has to chase debt all the time. He shuddered to think what we must have to put up with especially when it comes to overseas clients.

Oh it was also nice to see most everyone here has a freakish addiction of coffee as well. I said I'd been up close to 60 hours in my last post. Well it's 12 hours later and I'm still plodding alone (minus a 4 hour nap this afternoon). Rest assured it's early to bed tonight with a book till I pass out *grin*

I don't suggest this as a tool for working, but a great little 'pick-me-up' I heard about from a friend who was in England a while ago is Red Bull and Vodka. Damn straight it gives you wings :) Some friends and I did a survey one night at a bar as apparently the english 'pub lads' drink it and go on rampages. While we didn't get as far as rioting through the streets, I can say it's quite a little energy boost :) *hmmm... must be the ice*

Lastly (and a bit of a crosspost type thing), the other thread that mentioned maybe getting Sysadmin to put up a design forum. I'd like to voice my agreement to that idea. While I agree it's not webhosting as such I'm sure I'm not the only one who's come from the webdesigner end of the room to play here. Actually it may prove very beneficial to all concerned if there was a bit of networking going on. I do now for a fact a lot of designers spend a great deal of time fighting Net Sol and webhosts to get access to sites that clients have forgotten (or never even knew) the details too. Designers need space, and hosts need sites so it works out pretty well don't you think? I'm probably not the only one to notice there's a few people in this forum with a huge amount of knowledge outside hosting that haven't had a chance to really shine in case they go off-topic.

Maybe we need a vote on it or something. I'm still pretty new here and would hate to think some of us 'young bucks' are trying to screw with a system that's drawn a great wealth of talent from the hosting field. So what do you think guys? Consolidate or expand? *smile*

Greg Moore
http://www.akashik.net

Originally posted by Speedie
Duster said:
That poor little thing needs oxygen desperately (and maybe a transfusion)! :-D

<--volunteers some of that highly infectious English blood. MWUHAHAHAHA.

At least this thread has accomplished a couple of things:

1) Everyone has had a good vent.

2) I feel less like a miserable old git.

Or worst case scenario, we're all miserable old gits together. Which is fine too ;)

Speedie (and his bell - "Unclean, unclean")

Duster...*snicker* Thats just why I like that face most days its almost a reflection of meeeee

<-----runs from speedie stop trying to blow up my fav face hehehehehehehe

Originally posted by Speedie
<Wistful sigh>...I miss a good cup of Nescafe Gold Blend. Just can't seem to find it over here. You're right of course Duster, life without coffee is like...Al Gore without hairspray.

Incidentally I really *am* banned from giving blood over here. FDA has banned all Brits from donating since the BSE (mad cow) scare :nuke:

Cow 1: I'm not afraid of this BSE thing.
Cow 2: Oh no, why's that then?
Cow 1: 'Cos I'm a tractor, silly.

Best wishes,
Speedie (your foaming-at-the-mouth-mad-as-a-fish-Brit-pal)

*Nescafe Gold Blend* a brit that drinks coffee?? *GASP* I perfer my English breakfast tea or earl grey LOL

*ponders how she loves british humor <G>*

LOL @ Dana! :D

Sad to say I'm not one of the coffee addicts, since my digestive system and coffee do not marry very well to say the least. I just get my caffeine boost from Coke :) (the black liquid variety, not the drug on da street thing :p)

And Greg, I suggest we expand... I've just e-mail Matt with the request to open up the forums.... Will notify when I get a positive or negative response.


[Edited by BC on 09-08-2000 at 07:30 AM]

Originally posted by BC
LOL @ Dana! :D

Sad to say I'm not one of the coffee addicts, since my digestive system and coffee do not marry very well to say the least. I just get my caffeine boost from Coke :) (the black liquid variety, not the drug on da street thing :p)

And Greg, I suggest we expand... I've just e-mail Matt with the request to open up the forums.... Will notify when I get a positive or negative response.


[Edited by BC on 09-08-2000 at 07:30 AM]

Ahhh well my main caffeine comes from Coke *sees a pattern here* is it a requirement to be a caffeine junkie to be a host?? *Evil Grin*

I don't care much for coffee, but Cappuccino is sometimes okay. I drink a lot of caffeine as well. Mostly in the form of Coke (every soft drink is "Coke" here in Atlanta, even if it is a different brand). And of course, direct drip into the blood stream (okay, I do not do that) ;) A nice big picture of tea is also a pretty good source of some caffeine.

I do not think it is just computing/Internet professionals who are caffeine junkies, it seams like every adult is these days.

Best regards,
Frank Rietta

Ok Admin, what's the deal with the message numbering? I was reading through here and noticed that Angela posted three times and stayed at 29 messages posted? Am I the only one that this kind of counting doesn't make sense :confused:

If I worked somewhere and my boss said, ok, we are paying you $500 for this job and $1000 for that job and $500 for this job. Then I say "cool $2000 for all three" and he says "No, $500 total" would I still be working there? Would you? :D

At this rate, I'll never make it to "god" status if I have to post 5 times to go up by one number. I know.......here is the worlds smallest violin playing "my heart bleeds for you", but it still stinks :rolleyes:



[Edited by MikeA on 09-08-2000 at 09:10 AM]

[QUOTE I miss a good cup of Nescafe Gold Blend.
[/QUOTE]

Another Brit on Coffee! Whoooo normally they want a cup of milk with a dash of tea! :D I'll buy you a pint of G.

So anyways, anyone got any free scripts to give me? :D

And you dug this thread up why?

I have read all of this threads and am shocked! You mean we can charge people for our knowledge? Boy, my bill collectors are going to be happy now!

Time is not free because you cannot buy it back...

I also get some 'free hosting requests' at times.