Are any hosts using Cogent. The deal seems too good to be true. Full duplex Gig-E 1000 MBPS for $20,000 per month.

Any info would be appreciated?

20k per month.. is it so cheaper compare to other?

kaz: $20,000 for 1000mbps. That's $20 per mbps. Most bandwidth is anywhere from $200-$1000 per mbps.

No doubt its a good deal, but their network still isnt built out and they only peer with one provider in most markets so over all the service isnt going to be good.

as cbaker17 stated, cogent's network is not complete, yet.

check
http://www.ispworld.com/isp/bb/Cogent.htm &
http://www.cogentco.com/Difference/network_map.html
for more information - if you haven't done so...

on ispworld.com, the company's review says, the don't offer access in Houston.

Also, posting in this forum to check for a backbone provider doesn't seem too professional to me. There are better and more profund ressources to check.

Check ispworld.com's rating, seems pretty complete.

Originally posted by headsurfer
Are any hosts using Cogent. The deal seems too good to be true. Full duplex Gig-E 1000 MBPS for $20,000 per month.

Any info would be appreciated?

Wouldn't that mean that the per-gigabyte price would be ~ 6 cents? Sounds too good to be true, if you ask me.

With all due respect, and certainly not wanting to start a flame war, direct and personal experiences with new products/services is an inportant research factor.

I already know the nuts and bolts... just trying to identify real world experiences.

Rather than worry about what one might consider professional, I'd rather worry about what works.

If I worried about what everyone's perceptions would be, I'd have never called our hosting venture Rackshack!

Robert Marsh
Head Surfer Rackshack.net

PS Aren't forums supposed to be for an open exchanged of ideas, questions, answres, and experiences?

I think you will be hard pressed to find someone who is using Cogent here. Most of Cogents drops are in carrier neutral facilities. You need to buy space from like Switch and Data, then pay to have the drop. I know they are starting to put in drops at other facilities too. We are hosted at a colo who just got (or is finishing) installing an OC-48 . They are selling full racks for $2000 for a 10 Mbps drop, $4000 for a 100 Mbps drop. The are calling it "unlimited bandwidth" within that drop. Those prices are very cheap in my opinion. However we still pay for tiered pricing there because it is still too new and they have no redundancy. However, many people think this is the way bandwidth will be provisioned so they are taking the chance.

With prices like this, you would be able to offer "unlimited bandwidth" at RackShack. A RAQ can not support too much anyway (compared to a 1 GHz box). However, what happens when the pipe is down? This is what keeps us from offering unbelievable pricing on bandwidth. I am pretty sure that within 6 months to a year, they will be passing enough bandwidth to peer with multiple providers. The Cogent rep we talked to said that is what their goal is. He stated they know their weakness right now, but can not do anything about it until they start filling pipes.

As far as the comment by "unabomber", I think the name says it all. He has no clue what the public forums are for.

Thanks for asking the question Headsurfer, I was going to ask about the progress with cogent myself but saw you beat me to it.

And as far as a webhost asking a question on a board called WebHostingTalk, I guess I really didnt see anything strange with it, considering the name of the place and all, but mabey I and every other WebHost who ever asked and or answered a question here has been wrong... go figure. hehe...

@headsurfer:
of course, open dialogue is important for progress and may help with research - still, it does not seem professional to ME (-> I was just expressing my personal opinion which should be okay in an open forum as long as it is not offensive) to quote prices (on a product which still seems not to be complete and proven).

I have closely followed the postings in this forum and think that the users in here are not experienced bandwith/leased lines buyers (and definately not in the league you are in -> ISP/IPP). Maybe there are some readers who might compete with you, but I haven't read any revealing posting of them so far.

My posting wasn't meant to offend but to help your research, along with my personal view of the topic.

@wired1:
check the 2nd paragraph to headsurfer

@UmBillyCord:
check my 1st paragraph to headsurfer

to judge my views just by my nickname is pretty narrow minded - i have chosen this nick without knowing the terrorist (since i am not living in the us and press coverage worldwide was next to nothing).
after being confronted with his doings, i thought i should not change my nick since this wouldn't change what he did and it wouldn't give me the opportunity to discuss the effects of globalisation, modernisation and political fanatism with people i hardly know.
I DO NOT SUPPORT HIS ACTIONS (well, any violance at all), still i found some aspects of his manifesto to be worth to think about:
http://www.panix.com/~clays/Una/

Originally posted by unabomber
@headsurfer:
of course, open dialogue is important for progress and may help with research - still, it does not seem professional to ME (-> I was just expressing my personal opinion which should be okay in an open forum as long as it is not offensive) to quote prices (on a product which still seems not to be complete and proven).


The prices are openly published. It's no secret or confidential information.

There's nothing unprofessional about what he did.

as i wrote in my previous posting, I have closely followed the postings in this forum and think that the users in here are not experienced bandwith/leased line buyers (and definately not in the league rackshack/ev1 is in -> ISP/IPP) and thus not qualified to evaluate backbone providers.
What I still view as unprofessional is to post in a forum to ask about something most people don't have a clue about. Those people that might will most probably not answer since its their competition (and who's helping his competitors these days?).

Do you know what "Fiber Optics technology" is and how it works???

Cogent uses the latest in IP over Fiber Optics technology, meaning you get direct *ethernet* connectivity into the core of the Internet backbone. This means no telco frustration and expense of T-1, DS-3, OC-3, etc. It is pure bandwidth at the 10, 100, and 1000 Megabits/second speeds. Who knows, maybe this is the wave of the future. Makes sense, nice simple 10, 100, 1000 drops. But to call it a scam when you don't even understand what it does is just nuts. :stickout

Your point is well taken... However, even with their technology... 60 Cents per gigabyte is cheap... I would think that 60c per gig would be their cost..

Maybe not a scam, maybe an unbelievable deal that I should think about getting into.

Thanks for setting me straight.

Cogent isnt a scam, their just not built out to the point where their network can be used in real world situations, give them another year, and they will prob. blow everyone out of the water

Folks, the 100Mbps or 1000Mbps is only bandwidth guaranteed to their network... not to the Internet. But still... even if you can only get 20Mbps to the Internet on a 100Mbps line, that's only $150 per meg... which is much cheaper than what Above.net charges directly. Cogent could turn out to be a very good deal very soon, because if everyone has access on their network, the big guys like UUnet and Level3 will want to peer with them... which means their bandwidth gets even better, and doesn't cost Cogent a dime. We'll see, but I think it will be a very good thing soon.

Regards,

umm jkhehe lets not lie to people here, i know you sell their bandwidth, but lets not lie.

1. UUNET and any other tier 1 provider is NOT going to come to cogent to ask to peer with them, cogent has a hard enough time getting one provider to peer with them and they have to go ask for that, the providers could care less if cogent peers with them or not.

2. And while your right about it being a good deal at 150.00/meg its not really because since they only peer with one provider they have no redundancy and theres going to be places all over the world exp. internationally where its going to be slow as mollasus.

Its going to be year down the line before they will even be close to yipes much less a tier 1 competitor.

Originally posted by cbaker17
umm jkhehe lets not lie to people here, i know you sell their bandwidth, but lets not lie.

1. UUNET and any other tier 1 provider is NOT going to come to cogent to ask to peer with them, cogent has a hard enough time getting one provider to peer with them and they have to go ask for that, the providers could care less if cogent peers with them or not.

That's your theory. I think it may be just the opposite. But no one can know for sure. Why attack me for having an opinion? I was just speculating... There was absolutely no lying. How do you know anyway, how hard it was to get peering arrangements?? Are you now also an employee of Cogent?

Who's to say that a Tier 1 provider won't want to peer with Cogent? If it is mutually beneficial, why wouldn't they want to? That's all I was saying.

BTW - I don't find your purposeful mutilation of my name in the least bit amusing.

2. And while your right about it being a good deal at 150.00/meg its not really because since they only peer with one provider they have no redundancy and theres going to be places all over the world exp. internationally where its going to be slow as mollasus.

Why does this matter? If you use BGP and have other connections, it's going to pick the connection that is best for the location. What do you mean they have no redundancy? They have their own network, and have dual OC48 rings around each city. They have just as much redundancy within their network as anyone else does. They also peer at public peering points in addition to AboveNet, so yes, there is redundancy, even in getting to other providers.

All I know is that from our personal experience, Cogent gets picked over UUnet more and more as they improve routing within their network. For the price we pay, and since we have additional redundancy, I think Cogent paired with UUnet (and Level3 soon) is a pretty good value for our customers who want low priced bandwidth.

Its going to be year down the line before they will even be close to yipes much less a tier 1 competitor.

Perhaps. When you build out a nationwide network and get huge investments from big companies like Cisco Systems, be sure and let me know. Until then, I don't think you personally have the right to insult any network, especially since you don't have first hand experience with them.

That's your theory. I think it may be just the opposite. But no one can know for sure.

I agree. We were told that within a year they will be pushing enough bandwidth to peer with Sprint. Who knows, it was a Cogent rep who told us this. He said the problem is they don't fill the pipes yet to peer with multiple providers. Apparentally Sprint said "Reach this level" and we will peer. But like I said, this is a salesman who told us this.

As far as how well the network is, we will know soon enough. We are in a colo that has a OC48 coming in from Cogent in San Diego. If there are no complaints with them, we will be offering some damn good bandwidth deals. :D

Yea notice the year timeline again, im not putting you down jkehe and im not mutilating your name it was a accident, but to simply say that cogent going to be able to play with the big boys any time soon is simply not true and is misleading your customers, i too agree they could be a player but further down the road, heck were wiring all of our facility for use with cogent, when their a viable player. As for redundancy they dont use any type of redundant routing for their external traffic, places like yipes use bgp routing over multiple providers and mutiple peering providers on top of their internal sonet ring architecture.

Dont get so defensive jkehe, im agreeing with you on the fact that some day if they keep up the funding and the build out they will be great, but until that time which even they admit is at least a year down the road, there are much better solutions for customers who need reliability, speed, and stability.

And to answer your question about how i know so much, i talk to cogent everyday almost, their wiring up 3 of our facilitys and were assisting them with a fourth, i recieve monthly reports on buildout progress and well as financial stability reports. I am very knowledgable in the bandwidth business!

Originally posted by cbaker17
but to simply say that cogent going to be able to play with the big boys any time soon is simply not true and is misleading your customers

Is a year not soon to you? That seems pretty soon to me. Misleading my customers? Not at all... I tell customers exactly what is going on with Cogent. Most of them want to take advantage of it.

As for redundancy they dont use any type of redundant routing for their external traffic,

What do you mean here? Please explain how you would control someone elses network's traffic. I would love to be able to manipulate UUnet's routes... that would be great.

places like yipes use bgp routing over multiple providers and mutiple peering providers on top of their internal sonet ring architecture.

Bad mouthing Yipes one minute, praising them the next...

I'm sick of listening to you badmouth Cogent, and then say that you're talking with them every day because they are going to have a viable product soon. Shouldn't you instead post constructive things rather than say "they suck" -- just a thought.

Personally, from having several conversations with Cogent and considering that most of our servers our run off yipes, cogent isnt in the ball park.

Yipes is Playing Minor League Triple AAA Ball, ready to go to the majors, and well Cogent, well cogent is in little league.

I mean the facts of the matter is that Cogent has not built out there network. 100mbps from cogent does not = 20mbps speed on the net.

I think that the major tier 1's are not ringing cogents door to peer with cogent, well one its cogents privledge to peer with the majors not the other way around. Two, the reality is they peer at above net still. And though Abovenet is not bad, there are alot of other private networks that cogent is not on.

No granted if you run bgp with UUnet it might work out solid. But lets say this idea. You get 100mbps from cogent, and it goes down are you going to have 100mbps from UUnet to back it up, and if you are you might not even have cogent there.

I think you need to stop comparing Cogent to the companies that have proven themselves as serious player out there. They are not these companies:

UUnet
Sprint
C&W
Genuity
Broadwing
Savvis
Level 3
Qwest
Yipes

Some of those are weaker then others, but they dont compare to any of those. Overall from my dealings with carriers, I put Cogent as one of the last carriers on my list at this point to run a hosting business off of.

Joe

Oh well i give up, jkhehe is just here to pick a fight, ive tried to explain to his im not picking on him or cogent, ive been very nice, ive come to the conclusion that if you dont think the exact same things as him YOUR WRONG, no matter what.

SO much for a contructive thread.

Originally posted by JBIZ718
Two, the reality is they peer at above net still. And though Abovenet is not bad, there are alot of other private networks that cogent is not on.


Just a minor data point from my own experience: I've seen traceroutes (going from my @home cable modem into cogent's network) going straight from @Home to Cogent, going via Alter.net, and also going via Above.net. That's about all I know here, but it seems that they are peering with more than just above.net.

I don't think Cogent is really ready for hosting. Maybe one day, but not right now or any time soon (at least that is what I think :) ) Big companies backbone companies (UUNet, AT&T, etc) just don't knocking at your door to peer with you because you have the traffic, it's usually the other way around. They try to do everything they can to keep the traffic on their networks because it means more money for them. They want the smaller companies to peer with them.

Let's look at AT&T. Do you think they are offering their dial-up services for $7.00/mo to make money. No, they are doing it to get more people on their network so companies like Cogent will pay big bucks to peer and to try and keep/build the traffic on their network.

Just because Cisco and others are putting money into Cogent, that does not mean they will become a huge bandwidth player. Look at Williams and Savvis. They both had major vendor financing from Nortel and Lucent, but it did not get them too far.

I think Cogent has a cool concept and is great for offices etc., but not hosting. Cool ideas and promising technology do not always succeed, just look at Ricochet (I am so sad to see them go).

Anyway, that is my 2 pesos. :D

Best to all,

Cogent is like broadwing. Poor quality. I have dealt with a few servers that were on the cogent network. We had to get them out of there fast. Traceroutes look horrable. I did traceroutes from probably 5 differnt machines, I think only one looked good. Myself I will stick with Sprint, Level 3, and UUnet. And even then I wouldnt use them in every state, it depends on what state you are getting the connection in.

Thought this might interest you all... Got this earlier today.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Cogent Communications Surpasses 75 Percent Milestone
to Increase National Backbone to 80 Gbps
Cogent On Track to Become Nation’s Largest IP over DWDM Network


Washington, D.C. (August 15, 2001) – Cogent Communications, Inc., a next-generation optical ISP, today announced that it has completed more than 75 percent of the planned 80 Gbps bandwidth expansion on its 12,400 mile long-haul backbone. The remainder of the expansion will be completed by the end of October.

Since April 23rd, Cogent has steadily increased the capacity on its OC-192 backbone from one wavelength (10 Gbps) to eight wavelengths (80 Gbps). This makes Cogent’s backbone one of the nation’s largest for IP data traffic and enables it to accommodate the equivalent of over 150 billion e-mails per second.

Cogent’s backbone now touches 45 of the 50 largest metropolitan service areas (MSAs) and is fully operational. Cogent currently provides service in Boston, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Houston, Kansas City, New York, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Santa Clara, and Washington, D.C., with plans to provide service in 20 cities by the end of the year.

“Clearly, Cogent is making significant headway in positioning itself to become one of the nation’s leading carriers of IP traffic,” said Jason Knowles, Analyst, Current Analysis. “One major benefit from this strategy is that the higher the quantity of traffic, the more efficient the network becomes, bringing Cogent closer to profitability. By utilizing an end-to-end Optical + IP infrastructure, Cogent has been able to redefine bandwidth pricing in the marketplace today.”

Cogent’s national IP backbone utilizes OC-192 long haul dense wavelength division multiplexing (DWDM), and is currently operational via two large, interconnected Eastern and Western rings connecting major cities across the country. Cogent’s metropolitan networks utilize OC-48 DWDM technology.
(MORE)

Cogent 80 Gbps/Page Two

An end-to-end IP+Optical infrastructure combines the intelligence and flexibility of IP networking with the scale and economic efficiency of optical transport. This infrastructure enables Cogent to maximize bandwidth and drive down the cost per megabit delivered.

“We have not seen the demand for high bandwidth at affordable pricing diminish in any way whatsoever. In actuality, uncertain economic times such as these make Cogent even more attractive to carriers and service providers as they look to save substantial sums of money on their transit and transport costs,” said Dave Schaeffer, CEO and founder of Cogent Communications.

Cogent customers agree. "Take the Hosting FM Corporation for instance,” said Jason Trindade, President, Secure Streams/Hosting FM. “Just by switching to Cogent, we have decreased our bandwidth costs from $350/mbps to $30/mbps, saving us $32,000 in our first month [with Cogent]. “We have not had one outage related to the network, quality of service is great, and best of all, not one customer has left since we switched to Cogent.”

Cogent Communications
Cogent Communications is a next generation optical ISP focused on delivering ultra-high speed Internet access and transport services to businesses in the multi-tenant marketplace and to service providers located in major metropolitan areas throughout the United States. Cogent's facilities-based, all-optical end-to-end IP network enables non-oversubscribed 100 Mbps and 1000 Mbps connectivity for radically low, unmetered pricing levels. Cogent’s signature service offered to commercial end-users of 100 Mbps for $1,000 per month, offers 100 times the observed bandwidth of a T-1 connection at two-thirds of the cost. The Cogent Solution makes ultra-high speed Internet access an affordable reality for small and medium-sized businesses, as well as large enterprises and service providers.

Cogent 80 Gbps/Page Three
Cogent's network consists of a dedicated nationwide multiple OC-192 fiber backbone, multiple intra-city OC-48 fiber rings, and optically interfaced high-speed routers. Cogent has been recognized as the first and only IP+Optical Cisco Powered Network (CPN). In the past 18 months, Cogent has secured nearly $500 million in capital to fund its aggressive nationwide network build. It currently services customers in 11 metropolitan markets and plans to add an additional 9 markets before the end of 2001. Cogent Communications is a privately held company headquartered at 1015 31st Street, NW, Washington, D.C. 20007. For more information, visit www.cogentco.com. Cogent Communications can be reached at (202) 295-4200 or via email at info@cogentco.com.
###

I can post articles all day long on real tier 1 providers who are actually profitable.

1. cogent isnt profitable
2. no matter how much fiber they have laid that doesnt mean their transits fast.

Lets keeps this thread clean.

In my opinion Cogent should not be used as sole source of Internet connectivity for web hosting companies, at the very least a web host should add an established provider and use BGP.

I can see Cogent working quite successfully for end-to-end networks and private networks (e.g. connecting intranets) as they have to fiber to handle it. However without hundreds of peering agreements and massive peering connection I doubt they can handle your 100mbs traffic heading for the public Internet. One has to wonder why the established providers have to sell bandwidth at $300-$1000 per mbs and some are still struggling.

Does Cogent have 80gbs connectivity to the public Internet? I would love to hear the amount they do anyone know???

It would be interesting to know what the 80gbit is. But it does appear that cogent is peering with sprint, verio, and above.net.

Originally posted by MattF
One has to wonder why the established providers have to sell bandwidth at $300-$1000 per mbs and some are still struggling.


It could well be an issue of timing. Most of the established providers were building up their networks around the same time, laying lots of fiber and buying lots of equipment. It wouldn't surprise me if their prices are largely based on paying off equipment they bought many years ago; I expect that Cogent probably saved lots of money by coming in late and buying dark fiber which companies had already laid but realized they didn't need (seriously, people were laying 64 fibers at once, and I don't know if any of these companies have lit more than 3 or 4 parallel fibers).

Bottom line, by coming along after everyone else Cogent can probably build a network at much lower expense than its predecessors.

I've been reading a lot on Cogent lately on these forums as well as calling around and talking to other providers. Here's what I think...

Cogent is a *great* deal, $1000 for 100MBS - wow!. If (no one seems to know for sure) they are peering with multiple providers like it says they are on their web page then they can push out as much bandwidth as needed because they are peering. It is very rare that most people let alone businesses can use a full 100MB.

Aside from the great deal, if you are actually utilizing 10% of a 100MB pipe you could afford to get burstable pipes from other providers (if you are in a datacenter that allows for this). If Cogent goes down for whatever reason your other pipes will be able to handle the unexpected load.

Personally, I'd love to see someone write up a review of their services from a neutral position. Granted, they are no UUNET but then again who matches up to them, they are the Microsoft of the internet services world.

In closing, I do believe that they are a young network and still have a lot of growing to do, but they are in a position to effect the industry in a great way and are worth a shot.

Regards,
Paul Roberts