This is a subject that came up in another thread. In the interest of keeping the other thread on topic, I'll try starting a discussion here.

When a client comes here complaining of a particular host he, usually, is supported by competing hosts who have no first hand knowledge of the complaintants accusations.
People choose sides. It's a fact of life.

My question is; do people need to choose sides??

Or, more relevant; whatever happened to "The customer's always right?"

Okay. That's the opener. Have fun.


<<< MODS - Feel free to move this if it should be in the "Lounge">>> my guess is you'd move it even if I didn't give you permission:D

Most hosts do choose the side of the unhappy customer, because to them, it seems more beneficial to diss another hosting company; maybe the unhappy customer will see their URL and sign up.

But I think, as a host, choosing the side of the unhappy customer is very bad, unless it is clear that the host had malicious intent. Why? Several reasons.

It is clear to most intelligent people that you are not speaking with experience, just speaking in hopes of gaining another customer. It shows dishonesty.

The hosting industry is dangerous as it is; we don't need more wild accusations of "host X must be as bad as *****". Most hosting customers and future customers don't have a lot of trust in the industry because they have been screwed by another host themselves or they have heard bad things about lots of hosts. We don't want to make that problem even worse.

I suggest all hosts shouldn't chime in on threads about a specific company *unless* they have first-hand experience with them, or their information is useful (i.e. "they only have a Level3 connection"). Information like "I think they are a scam!" or "Their site sucks, so they obviously can't be a good host" is not useful. If a host does take a side and express it publically then it should be for a good reason.

Just my $.02USD.

"whatever happened to "The customer's always right?"

Well, I think the above is a myth, nice in theory, and I think it is upmost important to keep your customers happy, but there is no practicle way to apply it. There are a few very unreasonable customers out there for one. An example would be to have a drunk come into your resteraunt and demand and disrupt the place disturbing everyone else - BTW, not all of the poeple in that catagory are necessarily drunks either - some just have a very high expectation that is unreasonable request anywhere.
I think there are two sides to everything, and I know there is bad service and very shody product sometimes, but to say that a customer has to be given the absolute benefit of the doubt when it comes to a dispute just doesnt apply in the real world...

just remember the customer is not always right. A majority of the time they are but not always. :smokin:

Even if they aren't right, they are still right. The customer is always right. They are your customer and if something goes wrong with your service or product, or if they THINK something is not 100% correct with your service or product it is your obligation to fix the problem, as far as I'm concerned.

If a drunk walked into my restaurant, I'd tell him that we don't accept people who would disturb the peace. At that point, he wouldn't be one of my customers.

"They are your customer and if something goes wrong with your service or product, or if they THINK something is not 100% correct with your service or product it is your obligation to fix the problem, as far as I'm concerned."

I will agree with you on the first part.

on the "THINK" part I will highly disagree...

There often a contract or a TOS, or SLA that poeple agree too when they sign up for a service, If you supply only 9AM-11PM email support and a client calls your number constantly asking stupid questions like "what is mysql? I never heard of that before." at 4AM on your 1-800# that would be an unreasoble level of service that they are asking for.

As for the drunk person walking into your resteraunt, you are right as far as the drunk is concerned, but there are also other poeple who expect and demand way above any level of "REASONABLE" service (no one can always be perfect), and have bad days - take it out on service workers, hold up lines, ect.., ect.., This apllies to any industry not only the Web Hosting industry.... I know lots of Business owners who would much rather not have the client, because if you gave your 100% as you said above you wouldnt have a dime left after trying to please that one client...

Originally posted by qslack
Even if they aren't right, they are still right. The customer is always right.

yeah and what about they use 10Gb bandwidth in place where they are allowed to use only 5GB and don't pay for it?

Ok, he only takes into account apache logs and don't consider emails, ftp, anonFTP and other services and bandwidth consumption through them ?. Is there any mistake of hosting company in that case.
:mad:

i think not. :(

the only thing which host should do is handle such situations professionally and don't act in bizarre or angry manner. just my thought and no statements.

Originally posted by qslack
If a drunk walked into my restaurant, I'd tell him that we don't accept people who would disturb the peace. At that point, he wouldn't be one of my customers.

It's your example, so....
What if a guest get's drunk in your restaurant and starts to annoy other guests? There is a point when you have to tell someone that he should leave. Politely, of course, but strict.

Originally posted by SoftWareRevue
Or, more relevant; whatever happened to "The customer's always right?"
From my recent experiences with companies, this rule seems to have changed to the company's always right. I've run into rude companies that insist I am wrong and cry :bawling: about other things. Examples of rude companies include: eBay, verizon, *****, etc. I miss the old rule.

I think there are 2 different rules.
[list=1]
In the eyes of the host The client is almost always right and you should do whatever to help them unless they are hopeless, mean, abusive, etc.
In other's eyes The full truth is always right, not just the host or the client
[/list=1]
No one rule can cover everything.

I think we need to make up a new rule. Like . . . . .

The customer's always right. . . . . . . Unless we disagree with his thought making process.

Generally if you don't treat the customer as if he is right, he'll go somewhere else anyway. You need to decide how to educate him without making him feel less of a customer - and to make sure he understands where he is wrong without pissing him off; assuming you want to retain him as a customer.

The guy who uses 10G of bandwidth and pays for 5G may be the customer that gets you to clarify your TOS and clearly state what you measure and charge for. You may lose him as a customer if you now try to charge him for 10G since he still thinks your original deal allowed his this usage. You have to decide if losing him as a customer is worth the 5G. Was he right? Proabably not, but he thought he was, and so when you exercise your option to educate him, you may simply lose him as a customer. Your choice.

-t

money is always right

Well, the client can be wrong. But the main point is that this board is being wrongly, clients are accusing hosts here, other hosts support clients etc.. the list goes on, there should be a limitation to what clients can post and do here.

A good one would be, only the client and host can participate in the discussion and not other hosts.

Originally posted by Hostexp
Well, ....... the list goes on, there should be a limitation to what clients can post and do here.
A good one would be, only the client and host can participate in the discussion and not other hosts.
By the time they get here; haven't they tried this already??

I have experiences with hosting companies where I spent a couple hours (usaully late late at night) trying to correct aproblem.
Then figure out that I can't solve it (this was when I had a virtual host) and call a request specific support - this is broke and you need to do xyz to fix it. At which point I and treated like a 4 year old and told that I am incorrect. Well then emial docmentation etc. and It require three days to fix.


On the same token one of my servers mail quit working - figuring again that I would not stay up late I call for a little advice. Told that I am incorrect the server never worked like that. I say it has for the last several months. Needless to say I was up late again and found the solution - known problem once you figure it out.


So based on experiences like these I count on zero support and that I (the customer) am most likely wrong. Well not zero but I learned if you have a problem don't let them off the phone until you have to - switch people.

Ok enough of this frustration - off to get a beer.

Originally posted by Fish_Saver
I have experiences with hosting companies where I spent a couple hours (usaully late late at night) trying to correct aproblem.
Then figure out that I can't solve it (this was when I had a virtual host) and call a request specific support - this is broke and you need to do xyz to fix it. At which point I and treated like a 4 year old and told that I am incorrect. Well then emial docmentation etc. and It require three days to fix.

.

I agree with you on this point.

I suggest that everyone tries to solve problems themselves, before contacting support. Why?
1. You learn something, and you will know what to do if it happens again.
2. You will not need to rely on support which might not be helpful, or even exist.

Contact support only if you are in dead end, but if they won't help, then you are stuck. :(

That's just my way of seeing this. :)

I think the "customers always right" rule has really lost its touch, mainly because its been twisted into something its not. It's not really something to be taken literally, but rather just a short way of saying "treat your customers with respect, they're the ones who keep you in business".

What annoys me is when you disagree with a customer and *politely* try to explain where they're going wrong (if they are actually wrong, and you know it), and then they say "but I'm the customer, aren't I always right?" And they mean it, too. Has anyone ever had that? It's a real pain.

Yes it is, i have had a similar issue, a client made me install 5+ scripts and help him code his site or he would post on message boards that our service is horrible. Well a few scripts and some help we don't mind, but there is no need to threaten us.

Regards,
HostEXP

Originally posted by Hostexp
Yes it is, i have had a similar issue, a client made me install 5+ scripts and help him code his site or he would post on message boards that our service is horrible. Well a few scripts and some help we don't mind, but there is no need to threaten us.I think, if a customer threatened me, he then ceases to be my customer:rolleyes:

I would do all that is possible to help a customer. After all, though things may seem fine from your end, you have no way of knowing what it's actually doing from the customer's pc.
I know this doesn't pertain to Hostexp's post, but it does to other's.
You may be able to do things on the account that the customer simply cannot (the whole technology thing). Although we'd like to think so; it isn't a perfect science.
So, when a customer says, "I can't access &**#$" He has to be taken at his word. Even though you may have no problems accessing "&**#$".
You can't just say, "It works; I just did it." Because, on his end it didn't work.
I guess it all goes back to the respect thing.
If you give a customer respect, he will respect.
If you treat a customer like a child, he will react as one.

Many of you know how them two year olds can be:D

This is an interesting thread. It is interesting seeing the different views on this.

I feel the "Customer is always right" can be compared to "Tie goes to the runner" in baseball. When there is a close call, the customer wins. This saying doesn't give customers carte blanche to run wide with it. We too have customers that try to pull this crap. They sign up for a year, 8 months later they want to use the 30 day money back guarantee because we would not install their home made cgi's. I mean come on!. This isn't a once a year occurrence either. We get these customers once a month. The way we try to deal with it is put yourself in their shoes as a reasonable person would think. Once you have your answer, ask a co-worker what they think. If there is doubt, tie goes to the runner.

I think, if a customer threatened me, he then ceases to be my customer

Great advice. Once they resort to threats or blackmail, ditch them. If you don't they will be threatening you again and again.

Quote from: MasterMindz

" From my recent experiences with companies, this rule seems to have changed to the company's always right. I've run into rude companies that insist I am wrong and cry about other things. Examples of rude companies include: eBay, verizon, *****, etc. I miss the old rule."

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I hear you man. Ebay is the worst company for customer service I have ever dealt with. I am not just a personal user either, I am a business selling on ebey. They don't give a rat's a** what I think, what problems I am having, or what I would like to see changed. They treat me like I am an idiot and have no idea what I am talking about and it really pisses me off.

I am the President of a new free/paid hosting company, and cannot afford to go through all of the stress of dealing with horrible companies like this, I am afraid I might take it out on one of my customers some day! I will do my best not to.

I agree with most of the things you people have been saying here. The customer is not alwasy right, but when you receive a complaint from a customer, here is the procedure I think you should follow (roughly):
1. Read (or listen to) what the customer has to say.
2. Run the whole situation by yourself again
3. Analize the situation from all possible angles (including from the customer's view)
4. Consider the possible solutions
5. Suggest the best solution to the customer
6. Keep giving new suggestions until the problem is solved.

At any point in time durning this process, if your customer get very unhappy, then try to understand what is making them unhappy. Try to fix that. If they are just demanding too much and not acting reasonably, suggest nicely something like "I am very sorry things are not working out, if we are not able to offer you what you need, you may want to consider another company for your [blank] needs."

Then, if the customer is still buggin you about something, then you should consider the value of the customer completely. Consider the reprecussions of making them angry, what kind of customer are they? Small time, individual, mid-sized company, fortune 500 corporation? What business will they bring you if you can manage to work things out? What damage will then cause by leaving you? At this point, you should consider just giving them waht they want, or laying down the law. If it gets really out of hand, then seek legal council or block the ex-customer's email address/phone number.

What do you think of this? I would like to hear what others think about this. I just came up with it on the fly, but I think this is basically what I would do as a company if I ran into a situation, or how I would like to see it resolved if I was a customer.

Feel free to email me, or post here on the subject.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Montgomery. President of NetDotHosting. Free and Paid high quality hosting.
For more information about our services please email me at mike@paradonsolutions.com with the subject of "info re:hosting"

Originally posted by NetDotHostin
. . . .What do you think of this? I would like to hear what others think about this. I just came up with it on the fly, but I think this is basically what I would do as a company if I ran into a situation, or how I would like to see it resolved if I was a customer.What do I think of it?? Hmmm. . . .
If I were a company; I would think that your observations and approach to customer relations is a valued assett.

If I were a customer; I would think that your observations and approach to customer relations is a valued assett to your company.

Just my thoughts. . . Although, I agree with you. You are looking out for the best interests of the company.

Anyone want to look at this from the customer's point of view??

I was trying to look at it from the customer's point of view, that is why I said to try too look at it from their eyes, give them as many suggestions as you can to fix the problem, and try to give them whatever it is they need. If they are unclear as to what they need, asking them to be more specific as to what they want you to do would be a good plan.

What do you think I should do, to better the situation for the customer?

Originally posted by NetDotHostin
What do you think I should do, to better the situation for the customer?
From the customer's point of view??

Fix my problem:D

That was supposed to be the primary concern of the whole issue. The remaining steps were meant for situations where you could not possibly fix the problem. I mean, if it is not in your power (such a a money order sent through the mail that never reached you) or anythning else that you have no control over, but the customer makes outrageous demands from you, then what can you do?


I think we as a society, especially as the internet community, need to enlighten all "customers" out there. You need to think rationally when asking for help/complaining to a company. Don't go complaining to a company about a mistake/bad choice you made just because you are angry. You must take responsibility for your own actions, and only demand what is fair.

Now I know that statement still doesn't quite cut it, as different people will see different things as "fair". I think, if we could eliminate the complaints/questions that the customer has, but really knows inside that they shouldn't be sending it to the company, then we would be rid of a large part of the problem. I think the biggest problem is people over-reacting and making wild claims and un-realistic demands.

NetDotHostin,
I sent you a couple of PMs.........Maybe they didn't get to you.
I'll come back to this thread when I can devote some more time to it.
I think it's a very usefull and informative conversation.
I'm just in the middle of too many things right now.

and dont forget to explain to them. tell them why it might not be working and what we can do to solve the problem

I think the biggest problem is people over-reacting and making wild claims and un-realistic demands.

:beer:

It seems it's the "wild claims" that generate the "unrealistic demands":eek:

looks like a few different topics blended into one thread

"The customer is always right"

*This is true except when: the customer is trying to use that to take advantage of a business. We've all seen it, and it's usually a customer who is a 'problem' customer. One that you cannot satisfy unless you basically give him the whole store free. It's more of a problem in the service industry than companies selling products.

If you say no to a customer for any reason when they are trying to scam more services, get you to waive fees, etc., the response is almost always an allegation of 'poor customer service', which normally causes a kneejerk reaction to give them whatever they want, and customers are well aware of that. Especially the ones who are business owners, they don't give away their goods and services free and neither should we.

*This is also true except when: the customer is dealing with a large corporation. They don't have any intention of trying to satisfy a customer who will never be satisfied, other than what are there policies, such as sending them a coupon, etc. They can either use their product/services or find another vendor. For large corporations, it's a number's game, the old 10% of your customers will consume 90% of your resources, and they do what they can to minimize that consumption of their service and support resources.

"What is technical support, and what isn't?"

I've been observing an alarming trend of egregious customer abuse of technical support. By that I don't mean verbal abuse, but the fact that they call or email, etc., for things like "What is MySQL", or "My site's down" when it isn't, or "I just got a new computer and I need you to talk me through setting up DUN on it".

For some reason ISP's and Web hosts have become the Free Internet and Computer Help Desk. You can't do that sort of thing with any other IT companies. Try calling Microsoft's technical support and asking them, "What is Java?" or requesting that they help you set up and configure Windows 95 on their new hard drive. Or if you get a circuits busy signal, or other 'error message' from the phone company, calling them up and informing them the the telephone system is down.

If you buy a piece of software, you normally get a certain amount of time 30-90 days to call the manufacturer for free assistance with setup/configuration/user training. After that period, you either figure it out on your own, or you pay for each incident.

If you buy a piece of hardware, free tech support is for Level 1 or 'break/fix' issues. If something goes wrong with the machine, they'll deal with it according to the terms of the warranty, but they won't help you upgrade it or replace it if you've broken it out of warranty, etc.

Yet because there are mo support policy standards (or any other standards) in our part of the IT industry and because no line of demarcation has been set, web hosts are currently expected to provide free consulting, troubleshooting, and training to customers for the life of their service.

Most other segments of the industry have realized that this type of 'tech support' is a terrible drain on their resources, and are using it for revenue generation, and many entrepreneur's have set up shop strictly providing that type of service.

Because we are the only group of computer professionals that customers have access to that don't charge per minute or per incident, we are expected to support third party connectivity and applications, including DSL and MS Internet Explorer/Outlook Express.

As I said, the customer's always right, except when he's taking advantage of a business.

Well said... oh sorry... typed, Phoenix!

I tried to just limit myself to reading; but I must stop and say, "Well said.":agree:

So??

Did we figure out who was right?


:D Merry Christmas everyone! :D

Originally posted by qslack
Most hosts do choose the side of the unhappy customer, because to them, it seems more beneficial to diss another hosting company; maybe the unhappy customer will see their URL and sign up.

I try to avoid these threads whenever possible. I will say that in the majority of the cases (60% to 70% or so) that I see posted here, I can easily find fault in *both* sides. Usually the hosting company was partially right, and the customer is partially right.

In most cases, the customer wants something un-reasonable, and the host is being pig-headed and won't budge an inch. If either party were willing to compromise, the majority of complaints aired here would never make it that far.

It's very unusual for me to see a post where I can't understand why the host did what they did, and often times I agree with the host. The problem is what happens *after* the host takes whatever action they took that I find fault with and the customer has a legitimate beef.

As for "the customer is always right", while it's a nice idea, in practice it really just doesn't work. I much prefer "The customer is right if they're right, and wrong if they're wrong. And it's the company's job to acknowledge their rightness when they are right, and educate them when they aren't." Customers aren't always right. They are a lot of the time, but they aren't always. It's a fact of business.

Jason

The customer is right if I tell them they are right

Originally posted by Phoenix

If you buy a piece of software, you normally get a certain amount of time 30-90 days to call the manufacturer for free assistance with setup/configuration/user training. After that period, you either figure it out on your own, or you pay for each incident.


This is a very interesting point, I wonder how this model is going to change with software companies trying to push "software as a service" where you have to pay yearly licensing fees...wanna bet Microsoft, and others, will still keep the same 30-90 support policy, even if you have to pay yearly :)