Do any of you Ladies (or Gents) know of any resources for women in business leaning more twards women in the Hosting business?

Thanks

Dana--I know you know, Im female from a post long ago!
I remember writing Annette long ago as well, because alot of my posts I just use the name--hostcaters--Even though, when I do use Martie, they usually assume I am male! Im not male--FEMALE!! Where I come from, and maybe this is an ole tale or something,Im not sure BUT for example my husbands boss is also named Marty--that is also how he spells it with a y at the end-- the way I spell mine with ie, I was raised to believe ie was girl and y was BOY---go figure?!
I think there are some women in the hosting biz but they remain hidden! Most of the ones that I know are all into graphics, web design, and some do some reselling hosting.I predict though that women will be sprouting about and put all these tough guys to SHAME!! whatcha think??

I know there are already women in various Internet enterprises. The difference is, they don't make a big deal out of the fact that they are women. Maybe it's because it doesn't matter.

There were some excellent comments posted, many by women, in response to an articlemaking a big deal out of the fact that the number of women on the Internet outnumbered men for the first time (the percentage of women was quoted as 50.4%). Aside from the fact that women slightly outnumber men, so that figure (if accurate) would merely be closer to reflecting the percentage of women in the population, so what? That's the gist of what many women said.

One of the women said something along the lines that women in general would be better off when they stop making a big deal out of the first woman in this, the first woman that, and I agree.

It's a bit like the true tale of one NFL coach who didn't want his team to do a victory dance when they crossed the end zone. He didn't want them to make a big deal out of what he felt should be a common event.

You can't hold yourself apart and fit in at the same time. From a certain point of view, there's a bit of hypocrisy in saying that gender shouldn't be an issue, and then making a distinction based on gender.

From a psychological standpoint, when you feel the need to emphasize something, it may reflect an insecurity about that very same thing. When you have confidence inyour abilities, you don't have to brag about it. That's one of the principles taught by many martial art disciplines.

Since, generally speaking*, women can perform most any job with the same ability as men, why do some women feel a need to make an issue out of being female?


* there are a few occupations best suited to a particular gender, mostly for physiological reasons.

Duster...Speaking from my point ONLY? I have found abit of humor with my name only--MOST people just assume that I am male, and there have been times when it just came up that I was female--responses were quite amusing, plus very interesting!

You often can't tell gender by names, that's for sure. Sometimes, there is a general pattern, like Sandy/Sandie, Marty/Martie, and there always those who break the pattern, not to mention ambiguous names (i.e. Chris, Sean/Shawn, et al). It gets even more confusing when you have women using what are generally men's names (or vice versa), as with actess Michael Learned (or Michael Michele on ER), or the male author of Trees, Joyce Kilmer.

On the Internet, our identities are hidden even more. Is it any wonder some people guess wrongly about inconsequential things like gender, age and others.

Ok Martie, I'll admit I thought you were male, heh heh.

As for the gender issue- well, I only see it this way: I think the ratio of old white men to *any* other race/gender is bizarre. The first *anything* wouldn't be such a big deal is things happened naturally as you would expect. Imagine living in a country that didn't allow you to vote *only* because you were a male and not a female? The first male voter would be a big deal. (Sure this all sounds familiar but in reverse).

At the risk of losing some male clients (due to possible sterotypes such as women can't run businesses, etc, who knows?), if I were a female who owned a web hosting company, I would market the bleep outta it as a place for women. It is hook that should not be ignored, even if promoted through a different site than your usual one. Something a bit softer perhaps than the usual WE OFFER XXX POP BOXES!!!, etc etc etc.

Sites aimed at women are doing quite well these days. Grab on!

Originally posted by Chicken
Ok Martie, I'll admit I thought you were male, heh heh.

As for the gender issue- well, I only see it this way: I think the ratio of old white men to *any* other race/gender is bizarre. The first *anything* wouldn't be such a big deal is things happened naturally as you would expect. Imagine living in a country that didn't allow you to vote *only* because you were a male and not a female? The first male voter would be a big deal. (Sure this all sounds familiar but in reverse).

At the risk of losing some male clients (due to possible sterotypes such as women can't run businesses, etc, who knows?), if I were a female who owned a web hosting company, I would market the bleep outta it as a place for women. It is hook that should not be ignored, even if promoted through a different site than your usual one. Something a bit softer perhaps than the usual WE OFFER XXX POP BOXES!!!, etc etc etc.

Sites aimed at women are doing quite well these days. Grab on!

Is Most(I said most) men dont have to juggle child care..and run a hosting business. I was wondering how women hosts juggle wife and mother...yes women are doing better than years ago but since this is an international career choice and in alot of countries women are not treated like they are in the US..I was wondering how you deal with clients that might not treat you as well because your female.

Gosh I didnt think the question would be such a big deal LOL

Originally posted by Dana

Is Most (I said most) men dont have to juggle child care..and run a hosting business. I was wondering how women hosts juggle wife and mother...yes women are doing better than years ago but since this is an international career choice and in alot of countries women are not treated like they are in the US..I was wondering how you deal with clients that might not treat you as well because your female.

Gosh I didnt think the question would be such a big deal LOL


Dana,

Your question makes sense in that context (parent juggling child care and business). I also appreciate the fact that you said most men, which is probably accurate. The first case I knew personally where the husband stayed home and the wife went to work were some friends in my dive club, Warren and Elaine. After working for years, they switched. Warren stayed home with the kids and Elaine went to work. Still, I would suspect that such cases are in the minority and it is usually the woman who bears the major burden of time with the children (though I see more cases where it is shared among the parents).

The separate issue that Martie raised (who's gender I never mistook) is a touchy one. By saying "do business with me because I'm a woman", it raises the question of fairness. Shouldn't men, then, say "do business with me because I'm a man"? Yet many women complain when they do, lamenting the "good old boys network". It seems rather hypocritical when they are trying to establish a "good old girls network". Like I said, you can't have it both ways.

Comments made in jest like Martie's "and put all these tough guys to SHAME!! " may find the humor flat among some. There's a point at which gender humor becomes tiresome and annoying and can begin repelling people who are ordinarily sympathetic to their plight.

When you don't have anything to prove, you don't feel compelled to make an issue out of anything. However, if you feel the need to dance in the end zone, it may be because you didn't think you'd ever get there and wonder if you truly belong there.

Personally, I care more about someone's qualifications and abilities and don't care a whit which side they button their clothes on. A good friend of mine is a graphics artist and I use her on occasion, not because she's female, but because she's a good artist (and friend).

As far as clients, you can cater to their prejudices or ignore them and let them go elsewhere if they are not happy with your choices.

[Edited by Duster on 09-02-2000 at 02:23 PM]

Originally posted by Chicken

Sites aimed at women are doing quite well these days. Grab on!

I'm with the Chicken God on this one. To use a wider term, a 'niche' market is always a great thing to be able to get into if you promote it right. While the girls aren't much of one *really* it's still percieved as such - chickmail pops to mind.

Look at sites like http://www.blackvoices.com , http://www.darklinks.com etc. All small markets pushed hard to create great sites. Being online gives people a great chance to join together under a 'banner'

Sometimes I curse being an 18-35, white, english speaking male *chuckle* - there's WAY to many of us!

Greg Moore
http://www.akashik.net

Ok, as the home schooling mother of three, wife of one, and the CEO of FutureQuest, I can't resist jumping in now :)

For whatever my dime is worth, I really do not see the need to separate the boys from the girls in these areas, however, I do see a strong need for support by our peers, regardless of gender, as its no secret that this is a tough, and often times cut-throat, business to be in! Some of the other threads in this forum have discussed the concept of "friendly competition/support" and those do help. I've been fortunate enough to be able to interact with other host execs and its a true blessing to be able to talk to someone else who understands the nature of a business that most wouldn't have a clue about.

I'm quite fortunate with my situation as my husband is also the Sys Admin. We live together and work together. On top of that we home school our three children. They are usually right by our sides just as much a part of the business as we are a part of their education. At times it's extremely difficult. I've had times where one child has 'stubbed his toe' the other needs help with her hair, and the other has a math question, "that just can't wait" while we also have clients needing support etc. I can't count the number of times places such as Pizza Hut have saved my life!! :)

Regardless of gender, if you can find others that share the same lifestyle as you, by all means spend time with them! Many of those in the hosting industry (at least of those I've spoken with) seem to feel alone in their work, yet the number of hosts out there is astronomical! Do not be surprised if there are at least 50 to 100 others in the exact same boat as you ready and willing to chat about it. :)

Deb
Title: CEO of a major houshold
Gender: Female
Race: Human
URL: http://www.FutureQuest.net

Thanks you, Deb, for illustrating the point I made so eloquently.

Greg, you can hardly call over half of the population a niche market, perception or not. Neither are niche markets always good to get into. Often they are too small and you run many risks by catering to them. Some pay off, some don't, some are labors of love you do for the enjoyment, not the profit.


-----------
I disavow any knowledge of godhood. I'm just a guy trying to help others avoid choosing the wrong host and learning the lessons I did the hard way.

See http://techcellence.net (right side menu) for resources to help and things I've learned.


[Edited by Duster on 09-02-2000 at 04:25 PM]

Originally posted by Deb
Ok, as the home schooling mother of three, wife of one, and the CEO of FutureQuest, I can't resist jumping in now :)

For whatever my dime is worth, I really do not see the need to separate the boys from the girls in these areas, however, I do see a strong need for support by our peers, regardless of gender, as its no secret that this is a tough, and often times cut-throat, business to be in! Some of the other threads in this forum have discussed the concept of "friendly competition/support" and those do help. I've been fortunate enough to be able to interact with other host execs and its a true blessing to be able to talk to someone else who understands the nature of a business that most wouldn't have a clue about.

I'm quite fortunate with my situation as my husband is also the Sys Admin. We live together and work together. On top of that we home school our three children. They are usually right by our sides just as much a part of the business as we are a part of their education. At times it's extremely difficult. I've had times where one child has 'stubbed his toe' the other needs help with her hair, and the other has a math question, "that just can't wait" while we also have clients needing support etc. I can't count the number of times places such as Pizza Hut have saved my life!! :)

Regardless of gender, if you can find others that share the same lifestyle as you, by all means spend time with them! Many of those in the hosting industry (at least of those I've spoken with) seem to feel alone in their work, yet the number of hosts out there is astronomical! Do not be surprised if there are at least 50 to 100 others in the exact same boat as you ready and willing to chat about it. :)

Deb
Title: CEO of a major houshold
Gender: Female
Race: Human
URL: http://www.FutureQuest.net

See this is what I ment *G* I was interested in tips and such from moms like Deb..I dont think it right to have an us VS them attitude but there are differences like I said before:)

Deb if you ever have some time (Time?? LOL) I was wondering if you could share some of your experience with me about being a mom that homeschools (which we are doing now with 2 of our kids) and running a hosting company....feel free to add me to your ICQ or email me .

Thanks

I'm sure this will annoy some men here, but I gotta say, women should celebrate that they're women the same way that men celebrate that they're men! You know, guys, the way we at times may speak to one another the way we may not speak with our mate/loved one. The way we "feel" a bond by hanging out and watching a game. We don't make a "deal" out of our being men in doing this, but then, men have for centuries controlled the world and still do.

And that's the difference. Women should celebrate that they're women, because they are considered by many men as a "minority." Look at our Congress. How many women are Senators? Eleven? There *should* be 50! And if there were 50 Women Senators, and half of the House of Representatives were women, you can bet this country would be a different place. And a better one. There would be a heck of a lot more balance in the country's affairs and less partisianship, and this would also translate into less glass ceilings in business.

Duster said: "One of the women said something along the lines that women in general would be better off when they stop making a big deal out of the first woman in this, the first woman that, and I agree."

Not to pick a fight here, but people who feel this must not realize the impact that a 'first woman in this' or 'first woman that' has on young girls. They see these women achieving something great/wonderful, and *begin* to think that maybe they could do that too, especially if they come from a home where Mom is a homemaker. Culturally, we as a society do not accept women in certain fields and certain positions.

The day that women will *truly* be better off is when they are truly on equal footing with men in business and in government. And when this happens, then gender distinctions will perhaps be rendered obsolete. Women won't need to celebrate a 'first this' or 'first that' milestone because they will be everyday occurences. Remember (for those of you old enough) the ERA back in the 70s? (ERA = Equal Rights Amendment, which was a law that would give women equal rights to men.) This law was defeated by our male elected leaders and it still has *never* been passed. It's the year 2000...is this not insane? Every industry that women work in, they are not paid the equivelent of men in the same positions. No, I don't think women should be quiet about their achievements.

And speaking of positions, in the industry that I'm in, women occupy virtually no top positions. A lot of VPs, but not Presidents. And of the Fortune 500, I believe only 1 has a woman CEO. (I may have that stat wrong, feel free to correct me.) Our society today is not as advanced or as progressive as a lot of people like to believe.

So, yes, women should celebrate the milestones that they achieve. And loudly.

You think that's bad? (girlie), I wore the chicken costume to too many halloween parties and am known in some circles as "Chicken Boy". Arrrrgh.

I'd have to agree that it was a clucking stupid thing to do *groan*.

Sorry, that was a cheep shot *louder groan*

<--Lives in BadPunsville, population: 1

Originally posted by Bill K.
I'm sure this will annoy some men here, but I gotta say, women should celebrate that they're women the same way that men celebrate that they're men! You know, guys, the way we at times may speak to one another the way we may not speak with our mate/loved one. The way we "feel" a bond by hanging out and watching a game. We don't make a "deal" out of our being men in doing this, but then, men have for centuries controlled the world and still do.

And that's the difference. Women should celebrate that they're women, because they are considered by many men as a "minority." Look at our Congress. How many women are Senators? Eleven? There *should* be 50! And if there were 50 Women Senators, and half of the House of Representatives were women, you can bet this country would be a different place. And a better one. There would be a heck of a lot more balance in the country's affairs and less partisianship, and this would also translate into less glass ceilings in business.

Duster said: "One of the women said something along the lines that women in general would be better off when they stop making a big deal out of the first woman in this, the first woman that, and I agree."

Not to pick a fight here, but people who feel this must not realize the impact that a 'first woman in this' or 'first woman that' has on young girls. They see these women achieving something great/wonderful, and *begin* to think that maybe they could do that too, especially if they come from a home where Mom is a homemaker. Culturally, we as a society do not accept women in certain fields and certain positions.

The day that women will *truly* be better off is when they are truly on equal footing with men in business and in government. And when this happens, then gender distinctions will perhaps be rendered obsolete. Women won't need to celebrate a 'first this' or 'first that' milestone because they will be everyday occurences. Remember (for those of you old enough) the ERA back in the 70s? (ERA = Equal Rights Amendment, which was a law that would give women equal rights to men.) This law was defeated by our male elected leaders and it still has *never* been passed. It's the year 2000...is this not insane? Every industry that women work in, they are not paid the equivelent of men in the same positions. No, I don't think women should be quiet about their achievements.

And speaking of positions, in the industry that I'm in, women occupy virtually no top positions. A lot of VPs, but not Presidents. And of the Fortune 500, I believe only 1 has a woman CEO. (I may have that stat wrong, feel free to correct me.) Our society today is not as advanced or as progressive as a lot of people like to believe.

So, yes, women should celebrate the milestones that they achieve. And loudly.

You're right, Bill, some of us find what you said annoying, but not for the reasons you might think. Most of what you said is mindless dribble that has no foundation in reality or truth.

First, I take issue with your remark about men controlling the world, and having done so for centuries. It overlooks the many female rulers throughout history, and other women in power. Ever hear of Cleopatra, Queen Isabella, Queen Elizabeth and a host of other queens? How about something more recent, Indira Gandhi, Margaret Thatcher, and others? It also overlooks the many women in various positions of authority.

In saying the world would be a different place, and a better one, in the context I see here, I see that you too are making the mistake of attributing big differences between men and women. I get tired of seeing all the negative things attributed to men and only positive to women. You see it in sayings like "if there were no men, there would be no crime". Right, Like there are no women criminals and none presently in jail. Mindless dribble.

Read again what I said about the NFL coach and what women said about making a big deal out of the first women. This is only a matter of opinion so I don't consider it dribble. By making a big deal out of the first woman in anything, you reinforce the idea that maybe they don't belong and shouldn't be there in the first place.

Another fallacy is that in a world with no gender distinctions, that positions would be split 50/50. While it might be close to that, it wouldn't necessarily be true. Such a remark assumes many things and in itself reduces both genders to an undeserved sameness.

However, more importantly, it wouldn't matter what percentage of each gender were in any position as long as there were no barriers to either

The ERA was not defeated by our male elected leaders, another false statement you've made. The ERA failed because it did not get enough states supporting it. Women, who constitute more than 50% of the population, voted as well as men. Not enough of them thought the ERA should become law. That's why it didn't.

There is a big difference in celebrating being a woman and saying "do business with me because I'm a woman". It was Marti, not Dana, who raised the issue of competition in this discussion.

You said "Culturally, we as a society do not accept women in certain fields and certain positions." You omitted the fact that the same is true of men and some positions and fields. It works both ways.

The fact that there are more men than women in technology fields does not of itself indicate any discrimination. There are many reasons that could account for it. Some of them come from the work of female scientists. It was they who discovered differences in the way men and women think, and postulated the difference in right and left brain use among the genders. Reportedly, men tended to be stronger in spacial visualization and mathematics, while women tended to be stronger in communicative skills.
That would tend to give men a greater interest in certain technologies and would explain why they gravitate towards it more naturally than women do.

The sooner we all start treating each other as just people, the better off we will all be.

I find it interesting that the men are fighting/disagreeing about how women should be seen treated refered to and everything else in this thread...doesnt that prove the point..the point that we are indeed treated differently from this thread it appears that we should leave our definations to the men because they can define us better than we can(point made). I would never ever try to tell a male how he should be refered to, treated or defined.

Without knowing it this thread has proven my point.

I have friends that say things to me like "My Husband let me" LET?? or "let me ask my husbands permission" *permission*?? This is a reality of alot of women and one you can only speak to if youve ever been a woman ..It would be like a Non host trying to tell you how to be a host.


Dana
PS Im not going to fight argue term it as you wish

Dana,

I have no idea what point you think was made, even after imagining commas in your remarks so they became a bit more coherent. As far as arguing over how women should be treated, you'll note that I made reference to an article and the women who responded to it who thought women should be not be given special notice of when they are the first in something.

I don't know if it's just me, but this whole thread is becoming pretty much pointless.

I couldn't care less if a hosting company or any other company is run by a man or a woman, or whether that man/women is of any particular age/height/race or sexuality. I do care whether or not the company is well run. In my last job I had a woman for a boss and she was dreadful to work for - but that's because of WHO she was and not WHAT she was. Her superior (alleged) was a man and he was even worse, but again that's because he was an ignorant, self-inflated a**hole with a serious attitude problem and NOT because he was a man.

As for the virtue of women/men being the first woman/man to do this that or the other I also couldn't care less. The first person to touch their left elbow with their left hand will get my applause...be it a man or a woman!!

Speedie.

I must respond here and in all honesty anyone that has read this whole thread, I certainly hope you can tell I was speaking from my experience only. In the first place I guess I was blessed with one of those names, that just happen to be male or female. My name is not the same as Jane or Jill. Most folks (assume) I am male...my posts were made simply to share the HUMOROUS side to ventures Ive encountered when one finds out I am female! LOL!
To you Duster, in particular, I wasnt trying to draw any attention OR IMPLY whatsoever, to do business with me because I am a woman. When I said we will put the guys to shame that was a harmless gesture on my part..a humorous comment and that is all! I agree that this thread is becoming quite pointless. I certainly didnt mean for any of my postings to be picked apart,AND so technically analyzed.
Gimme a break here, I am all for MEN and WOMEN...lets get back to hosting shall we?

Originally posted by Martie
[I predict though that women will be sprouting about and put all these tough guys to SHAME!! whatcha think??

I think that I have every reason not to find any humor in it and to respond as I did. Note that there was not so much as an emoticon to indicate any levity. Also, one will often find the beliefs of another expressed in their humor.

However, I agree that we can continue with issues more directly relevant to hosting and contine as people helping each other.

Originally posted by Duster
[B]Originally posted by Martie
[I predict though that women will be sprouting about and put all these tough guys to SHAME!! whatcha think??

I think that I have every reason not to find any humor in it and to respond as I did. Note that there was not so much as an emoticon to indicate any levity. Also, one will often find the beliefs of another expressed in their humor.



To each his :look: own

>>I have no idea what point you think was made, even after imagining commas in your remarks so they became a bit more coherent.

>>Most of what you said is mindless dribble that has no foundation in reality or truth.

Duster, you are one arrogant SOB. "The truth" is your personal property, is it?

Dana, you do what you want and talk with whom you please, and don't let anyone like Duster try to shove his, or her, "truth" down your throat.

Originally posted by Stephanie
Hmmm, "Chicken Boy"...that's pretty bad. But what'd ya think dressing up like a chicken would get you? :eek:

Yeah, I knowwwwwwww. Shoot, I thought this thread was about chicken costumes. I musta made a wrong turn at Albuquerque??? Hmph, back to meeeee people!!! I can't belive the nerve of all of you actually discussing the topic of all things!!!

*winky winky*

Originally posted by Deb Suran
>>I have no idea what point you think was made, even after imagining commas in your remarks so they became a bit more coherent.

>>Most of what you said is mindless dribble that has no foundation in reality or truth.

Duster, you are one arrogant SOB. "The truth" is your personal property, is it?

No, but I know an incoherent sentence when I see one. As regards Bill's remarks, I substantiated my critique of them, which is more than you can do with your attacks.

Dana, you do what you want and talk with whom you please, and don't let anyone like Duster try to shove his, or her, "truth" down your throat.

I don't try to get anyone to adopt my philosophy. As regards Dana, I didn't understand what point she thought was being made and said so. That's all. I have no quarrel with her, nor with Marti.

As regards you, some people find it easier to make ad hominem attacks that debate the issues. When they resort to insults, it shows me they have nothing intelligent to say and I cease any further communication. I shall return to doing that now.

[Edited by Duster on 09-05-2000 at 10:48 PM]

Yes, in a perfect world, it would be all about "people" as opposed to men/women, black/white/yellow, and so on and so on.

However, people by nature are social creatures. They will, by nature, gravitate to those most like them. Some people are simply more comfortable with people like them, although they are certainly not separatists and can function in other social situations as well.

This whole thing brings to mind an article I read in (I think) Skeptic Magazine about the lack of women at meetings in various places, and how to get more women involved. General consensus indicated that it was likely that women were simply not comfortable coming by themselves to meetings that were mostly men. Some women don't have this shyer tendency, some do, just as there are men who feel uncomfortable going alone to functions where they will know no one. Good? Bad? Neither. It's just the way we, as people, are. If people want to form groups so they can interact with others like them (and they do, or there wouldn't be so many organizations out there), more power to them. It isn't as if contact with others is being completely cut off - just that there is a place perceived as safe (for lack of a better word) for people who might be hesitant in other situations.

Today in ELPS (economic,Legal,Political, system) class, there was a talk about good old Bill Prez. Well someone said what he did was fine, it was just sex and everyone does it. I was told that women and men just have sex just like they did. I was like am I the only one with morals in here. Bill took advantage of Monica, Monica is not innocent dont get me wrong, but he used his power to get her other jobs and such. Now women are in a sexes society. Why any women has to wear 3 inch heel shoes with her breasts showing , i know why but think it is wrong. I mean I am a person who feels that kind of thing should be wrong. I dont want a person to sign a contract with me because one of my Assistances have large breasts and he likes to look as she bends down to get a pen. I dont have an assitant at all so no one say im sexes for hiring her. I am a one person company. Well we can not be equal because some females dont want to do the same work as a male for the same equal pay. Example: Groceries stores and such, You never really see those pretty girls go get the carts. You rarely see them unload a 16 wheel trailer. I am not saying it has never been done but it is rarley seen. I will probably be critized for this, but i say what i mean and stick to that. Please no one take this the wrong way, i will clear it up if there are mistakes.

Chris
Proud to work hard
Proud to be a male
Knows there are smarter Females
Knows there are harder working Females

Annette,

I agree with you (no news flash there) about organizations being formed out of a commonality in interest. If left handed red heads want to form a group helping them get along in a right handed, blond and brunette world, they have every right to do so. IF, however, they start suggesting that they are better than the right handed, or that we should do business with them strictly because they are southpaws, then they are practicing what I feel is immoral discrimination and I will say so. I'll do business with them, or not, based on how good they are at what they do, not because they have an opposite dominant side or a recessive hair color and skin pigmentation.

If they make a big deal out of being the first redhead southpaw at something, my reply will be "So what? How good are you at it?" That's all I care about. Ultimately, it's all that matters (except perhaps to them).

[Edited by Duster on 09-05-2000 at 10:09 PM]

We agree again: it's no big deal, even though there are some people who would make it so (not applying that to anyone here, just so everyone is clear on that). But I can certainly understand the need for time away, so to speak, for some people. There was a thread on this in AWW about webgrrls in the past month or so, and most people there didn't seem to get this point about people getting together with others more like them as a way of sharing common experience.

Originally posted by Duster

You're right, Bill, some of us find what you said annoying, but not for the reasons you might think. Most of what you said is mindless dribble that has no foundation in reality or truth.

First, I take issue with your remark about men controlling the world, and having done so for centuries. It overlooks the many female rulers throughout history, and other women in power. Ever hear of Cleopatra, Queen Isabella, Queen Elizabeth and a host of other queens? How about something more recent, Indira Gandhi, Margaret Thatcher, and others? It also overlooks the many women in various positions of authority.

In saying the world would be a different place, and a better one, in the context I see here, I see that you too are making the mistake of attributing big differences between men and women. I get tired of seeing all the negative things attributed to men and only positive to women. You see it in sayings like "if there were no men, there would be no crime". Right, Like there are no women criminals and none presently in jail. Mindless dribble.

Read again what I said about the NFL coach and what women said about making a big deal out of the first women. This is only a matter of opinion so I don't consider it dribble. By making a big deal out of the first woman in anything, you reinforce the idea that maybe they don't belong and shouldn't be there in the first place.

Another fallacy is that in a world with no gender distinctions, that positions would be split 50/50. While it might be close to that, it wouldn't necessarily be true. Such a remark assumes many things and in itself reduces both genders to an undeserved sameness.

However, more importantly, it wouldn't matter what percentage of each gender were in any position as long as there were no barriers to either

The ERA was not defeated by our male elected leaders, another false statement you've made. The ERA failed because it did not get enough states supporting it. Women, who constitute more than 50% of the population, voted as well as men. Not enough of them thought the ERA should become law. That's why it didn't.

There is a big difference in celebrating being a woman and saying "do business with me because I'm a woman". It was Marti, not Dana, who raised the issue of competition in this discussion.

You said "Culturally, we as a society do not accept women in certain fields and certain positions." You omitted the fact that the same is true of men and some positions and fields. It works both ways.

The fact that there are more men than women in technology fields does not of itself indicate any discrimination. There are many reasons that could account for it. Some of them come from the work of female scientists. It was they who discovered differences in the way men and women think, and postulated the difference in right and left brain use among the genders. Reportedly, men tended to be stronger in spacial visualization and mathematics, while women tended to be stronger in communicative skills.
That would tend to give men a greater interest in certain technologies and would explain why they gravitate towards it more naturally than women do.

The sooner we all start treating each other as just people, the better off we will all be.
[/B]


Duster,

When I said that men control the world and have done so for centuries, I think most people can see I'm making a generalization here, but not an inaccurate one. Of course I've familiar with those women leaders you speak of. And there have probably been more that we don't even know about. But for every woman leader or ruler, how many male leader or rulers have there been? As many countries that exist in the world today, how many have a woman leader or president? Can you think of any *major* countries today that have one?

You are also attributing views to me that I have not expressed in your 3rd paragraph. Or you misunderstand my meaning. Big differences between men and women? Maybe, maybe not. Certainly important differences, and this is not in the context of good/bad. It's in the context of *balance*, socially and spiritually. Men and women both bring important gifts, skills and talents to the party. The yin and the yang. And that's what I'm talking about. The 'running' of the world and business is much more yang than yin. In my opinion, we are not in balance.

Regarding the ERA, you are incorrect. The public does not vote to ratify an amendment to the Constitution -- the states' legislatures do that, either by a majority vote or a 2/3's vote, depending upon the law of that particular state. And back in the '70s, unless you're rewriting history here, all 50 state legislatures were comprised mostly of men. Which is one of the reasons it did not pass. Supporters could not get enough state legislatures to ratify it. Furthermore, the time limit eventually ran out on the states even being allowed to ratify it, and Congress has *not* passed it again since 1972, even though it has been introduced for passage *every year* since 1972. Current composition of the Senate: Men, 91. Women, 9. Current composition of the House: Take a guess.

Saying "Not enough of them [women] thought the ERA should become law. That's why it didn't." is not only incorrect, but a "mindless dribble" thing to say.

If you felt attacked by my quoting you in my first post, this was not my intention. But sometimes, when someone says something like you did, it's pretty hard for me to keep quiet. Clearly we don't agree here, nor am I interested in changing your mind. However, if you think that women are equal (i.e., have the same rights and liberties) as men in this world, your eyes are not open. Women are much better off in the western countries, but look at Iran, China, Afghanistan, just to name a few off the top of my head. Do you have any idea how women are treated in Afghanistan? (Imagine being faced with death if you refuse castration.) Or Iran? (Women are killed there even if they're only suspected of an infidelity. Men are not. Or, if a woman has sex before marriage and it's found out, do you have any idea what happens to them?)

Might I remind you of your words in a post in this thread that you said to Deb: "As regards you, some people find it easier to make ad hominem attacks that debate the issues. When they resort to insults, it shows me they have nothing intelligent to say and I cease any further communication." Well, saying what I've said is "mindless dribble" --- sounds like you're not following your own 'credo.'

The only thing you've said here that I could come close to agreeing with is your last statement "The sooner we all start treating each other as just people, the better off we will all be."

I would have to rephrase it however: The sooner we respect each other and honor and value each other's differences, the better off we will all be.

Originally posted by Duster
You said "Culturally, we as a society do not accept women in certain fields and certain positions." You omitted the fact that the same is true of men and some positions and fields. It works both ways.
[/B]

I'm racking my brain, Duster, but I can't think of any fields/positions that women are in/hold that society doesn't accept men in/as. Nurses...men do this too; Secretaries...men do this too; Hairdressers....yup. If you can think of any, let us know.

Regarding the ERA, some states had non-binding referendums about it. In some , voters said no, even women voters. One of the reasons is that there are already laws on the books to ensure the protection of women, they just need to be enforced. Of course, politicians often take the expedient poublic relations route and just propose another law, even a needless one.

Yes, I am well aware of how differently women are treated in many parts of the world, from Japan to South America and elsewhere. It's a shame to humanity overall. I'm also aware that in many civilizations regarded as savage and barbaric, that women have played an equal role. even greater in some respects. How ironic!

The Netherlands has a queen, is that major enough? I didn't mention the queen of England as she is mostly a figurehead. I believe one of the Scandinavian countries also has a queen and one of the two is the last reigning monarch (with real power, not a figurehead like so many others)

You said our country would be a better place with an even number of women in Congress. I challenge you to substantiate that with more than an esoteric vague answer.

Unlike Deb and her remarks to me, I did not insult you. I did challenge your remarks and substantiated my reasons, so I am following my philosophy. There is a big difference between saying your remarks are mindless and saying you are.

I find remarks such as some of yours, and others like "man is the only species that kills its own, or kill for other than food" to be intellectually insulting, not to mention false. I may challenge them and encourage others to think rather than accept falsehoods as true. I do not accept yours.

Duster said:

I didn't mention the queen of England as she is mostly a figurehead

Quite the contrary Duster, "Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith." (henceforth known as Queen Elizabeth II) is far from being a figurehead.

She has the power to overturn any law passed by Parliament or to prevent any prospective law from becoming such in the first place (AKA witholding royal assent).

She has the power to appoint a Prime Minister and her permission is needed to dissolve Parliament.

The Queen formally approves a large number of Orders in Council (which, by Acts of Parliament, enact subordinate legislation ranging from constitutions of dependent territories to international pollution).

The Queen also approves Proclamations (formal notices which cover areas such as the dissolution of Parliament, coinage and dates of certain Bank Holidays).

She is required to cause law and justice with mercy to be administered to all. In the United Kingdom, all jurisdiction therefore derives from the Crown: the courts are The Queen's courts; the judges are Her Majesty's judges and derive their authority from the Crown; criminal prosecutions are brought in the name of the Sovereign against those charged; the prisons are Her Majesty's Prisons; and prisoners are detained 'during Her Majesty's pleasure'.

That's without mentioning her positions as Head of the Church of England and Defender of the Faith, Head of the Armed Forces and so on. In fact England cannot declare war on another nation without her assent.

So no, Queen Elizabeth II is not a figurehead. She is an important line of defence against a corrupt parliament or any attempt at dictatorship. The fact that she does not exercise her many powers on a daily basis does not mean that she does not continue to hold them.

Off topic and picky maybe, but as an Englishman I cannot stand by while someone degrades the importance of my Queen. Let the flames begin... ;)

Speedie.

Originally posted by Speedie
Duster said:

I didn't mention the queen of England as she is mostly a figurehead

Quite the contrary Duster, "Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith." (henceforth known as Queen Elizabeth II) is far from being a figurehead.

She has the power to overturn any law passed by Parliament or to prevent any prospective law from becoming such in the first place (AKA witholding royal assent).

She has the power to appoint a Prime Minister and her permission is needed to dissolve Parliament.

The Queen formally approves a large number of Orders in Council (which, by Acts of Parliament, enact subordinate legislation ranging from constitutions of dependent territories to international pollution).

The Queen also approves Proclamations (formal notices which cover areas such as the dissolution of Parliament, coinage and dates of certain Bank Holidays).

She is required to cause law and justice with mercy to be administered to all. In the United Kingdom, all jurisdiction therefore derives from the Crown: the courts are The Queen's courts; the judges are Her Majesty's judges and derive their authority from the Crown; criminal prosecutions are brought in the name of the Sovereign against those charged; the prisons are Her Majesty's Prisons; and prisoners are detained 'during Her Majesty's pleasure'.

That's without mentioning her positions as Head of the Church of England and Defender of the Faith, Head of the Armed Forces and so on. In fact England cannot declare war on another nation without her assent.

So no, Queen Elizabeth II is not a figurehead. She is an important line of defence against a corrupt parliament or any attempt at dictatorship. The fact that she does not exercise her many powers on a daily basis does not mean that she does not continue to hold them.

Off topic and picky maybe, but as an Englishman I cannot stand by while someone degrades the importance of my Queen. Let the flames begin... ;)

Speedie.

Speedie,
that was wonderful I didnt know all of that (I am English by blood and facinated with anything I can find on it)

Dont feel bad that its off topic its better than alot of the posts Ive seen :):):)

Speedie,


Thanks for elucidating. However, I did say "mostly a figurehead", as I am aware that the queen does have some powers, however little used. I am just not conversant with the extent of those powers. However, it is Parliament that largely rules the country. Thus, it would not be appropriate to consider her a ruler in the context of this discussion. No offense or degradation was intended.

Spain has a king, and he doesn't truly rule the country either. Most countries have outgrown monarchies, even if they retain some vestige of the past.

Glad you enjoyed it Dana.

Trivial Fact #53: The death penalty in England was still in place for crimes of treason and piracy until July 1998. Even now, despite its reputation as an abolitionist, there are still 5 military offences for which it can be imposed in England:

1) Serious misconduct in action.
2) Communicating with the enemy, or furnishing supplies, or aiding the enemy having been captured.
3) Obstructing operations or giving false air signals.
4) Mutiny or incitement to mutiny.
5) Failure to suppress a mutiny.

Duster: No offence taken, just the usual rising of hackles when anyone even appears to degrade the stature of our Queen ;)

Speedie.

Actually, Stephanie, it wasn't the discussion about resources for women, but the competitive issue raised separately. Neither is it a war between the sexes in any sense of the word. The responses are not split among gender lines.

For whatever reason, males seem to pioneer many activities. Ruling out employment and other situations in which barriers to entry may be imposed, it is still true that many ventures are started by men.

One of these is scuba diving. When I first started diving, a woman diver was nearly as rare as polar bears on Miami Beach (nearly, but not quite), or penguins in the gulfstream. Thankfully, things have changed since those early days. The number of women has steadily risen. In the 1980's, they comprised about 25% of the diving population. Today, it is closer to 40%, perhaps higher.

Is diving a male dominated activity? No more than quilting or needlepoint are female dominated activities. It's just that certain things tend to appeal more to one gender than another, even when there are no barriers to entry or advancement. Aside from Rosie Greer, who probably none of us know personally, how many men do needlepoint?

However, the lack of representation equal to that of the general population does not of itself constitute any sort of discrimination. It may simply be a matter of appeal.

*sigh*

Adults... when will they ever grow up....

What I see by reading most of this is mindless arguments.. truly they are. All these arguments about how many men vs women and who pioneer's what ect. Pointless.

I, and probabbly many others my age see it this way. Plain and simple

Who Ever can do the job the best.

Plain and simple.

Nuf Said, Topic Closed.

Daniel~

Daniel you said it all. It doesn't matter if the states ratified anything with 2/3's vote. Dana had a question and it got out of hand. This may be a time for a thread to be closed. Dana, If I come across any information on your topic, I will contact you.

Chris

Hey, TCG,

What is it about discussion that you find so threatening that you suggest the thread be closed? Except for one person, the discussion remained civil. Sure, there were disagreements, and so what? Agreement is not necessary for intelligent discussion (which includes civility), only respect is.

Several of us threatened to leave here a few months ago when they got too heavy handed about closing discussions. It may be one thing when it's a flame fest,especially when it spills over into other discussions (as has happened), or when crude language is used, but quite another for normal discussion.

I suggest if you don't care for a discussion, don't read it. Just don't tell me I can't discuss it because you don't care for it.

Besides, there is a practical aspect to it. All one has to do is open a new discussion. Still, it is not a good idea to stifle discussion. Often, understanding can come out of disagreement so long as it remains civil.

This is a topic that can go on forever. It is like saying In WWII the USA should have not dropped the Atomic bomb on Japan. It can go on forever.
Dana asked a question and it got off topic, if you wanted to have a topic such as this it should be put into the general conversation part. Dana really needed some answers and I don't think she has got what she is looking for yet. Dana tell me if I am wrong, I will edit this post.

Chris

Well, I hate to post an on-topic message but here goes...;)

An Income of Her Own (http://www.anincomeofherown.com/)

Looks to have a lot of useful information for women in business. Geared towards the under 20's, but I'm sure that applies to all the ladies frequenting this forum (and if that isn't transparent sucking up I have no idea what is...)

Forum for Women Entrepreneurs (http://www.fwe.org)

Fosters, supports and promotes women-founded venture fundable technology and life science startups (so their Yahoo description says).

National Foundation for Women Business Owners (http://www.nfwbo.org)

Source of information and statistics on women business owners and their businesses providing non-profit research, leadership development and entrepreneurial training (again, this is a Yahoo description).

Yahoo Subdirectory (http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/Cultures_and_Groups/Women/Careers/Women_Owned_Business/Organizations/)

The Yahoo subdirectory that I got these links from ;)

Best wishes,
Speedie.