I know, it's probably a pipe dream. But is it possible in our wildest dreams to actually regulate the web hosting industry?

Anybody with a hundred bucks and a $40 site design can hang a shingle and call themselves a web host. The Internet is a wonderful thing, but it certainly comes with its inherent problems. Do you think it would be possible to regulate/legislate the hosting industry to the point where someone has to actually pass an exam in order to operate a web hosting business? I'm not talking about resellers. They don't manage the servers. I'm referring to the ones who buy/rent a server with little or no knowledge of sysadmin. Those are the ones I would like to see fall off into oblivion.

I do realize that companies who sell or rent servers would not be thrilled with this concept. After all, it would cut into their bottom line. Much of the revenue they generate is with customers who have no business trying to run their own servers. But they represent, I'm sure, a good chunk of their business. So what do they care? Money is money.

Logistically, is it possible to convert this industry into one that actually requires an operator of legal age with a minimum level of sysadmin knowledge? Or am I just smokin' too much of the pipe tonight?

Vito

Just legislate that the host has to have a registered company and that should take care of a lot of it Vito. What do you have in that pipe, by the way.:D

Originally posted by blue27
What do you have in that pipe, by the way.:D
Can't say, Michael. It's from a private stash... :D

Vito

Maybe some webhosting certification from CompTIA of something might be a cool idea...

What's CompTIA?

Vito

Anybody with a hundred bucks and a $40 site design can hang a shingle and call themselves a web host. The Internet is a wonderful thing, but it certainly comes with its inherent problems. Do you think it would be possible to regulate/legislate the hosting industry to the point where someone has to actually pass an exam in order to operate a web hosting business? I'm not talking about resellers. They don't manage the servers. I'm referring to the ones who buy/rent a server with little or no knowledge of sysadmin. Those are the ones I would like to see fall off into oblivion.



Well the people who buy and rent servers have the right to do as they please with them,its there money.I dont understand your point of making someone take a exam to see if they know about servers and what not,thats like a dealership saying they wont rent or sell you a car if you dont pass there exam on how to use it.



;)

Originally posted by numba1stunna
Well the people who buy and rent servers have the right to do as they please with them,its there money.I dont understand your point of making someone take a exam to see if they know about servers and what not,thats like a dealership saying they wont rent or sell you a car if you dont pass there exam on how to use it.
;)
Well, in the real world, when you run a business, it is assumed that you have the industry knowledge to run the business. If you buy a "Midas Muffler" franchise, it's assumed that you have experience in replacing mufflers. Otherwise, you will obviously have unhappy customers. So taking that parallel to the hosting industry, wouldn't it make sense that if someone called themselves a web host, they would actually have some training/experience in the industry to justify calling themselves web hosts?

Vito

Originally posted by vito
I do realize that companies who sell or rent servers would not be thrilled with this concept.

I was assuming this sector was also going to be regulated. Relatively speaking, there are just as many cowboys handing out the servers too. :)

Gary

Originally posted by Editor
I was assuming this sector was also going to be regulated. Relatively speaking, there are just as many cowboys handing out the servers too. :)

Gary
I agree, but we have to start somewhere, Gary...

Vito

Originally posted by vito
What's CompTIA?

Vito

They create certifications - http://www.comptia.org/

I agree with numba1stunna. If they don't know what they are doing then they will go down sooner or later so why do you worry about them?

Also, its very hypocritical of you to talk about certifications when you don't know what CompTIA is....

The first party you need to blaim for this is Cpanel and control panels like cpanel that make managing a server very easy.

Greetings Vito:

Vito, while it galls me that people who just know how to cut and paste code call themselves programmers, people who just learned SSH call themselves system administrators, and people who just learned FrontPage webmasters... I believe strongly in having the smallest government required to rule a nation.

With that stated I would prefer self regulation within a given industry, and client education.

I would love for a recognized person whom people would have a level of trust to do a complete series for dummies on the industry on TV, in newspaper print, and paperback to educate the masses about why it is important to look for value that has longevity.
I would love for tightly focused industry groups (one for true ISP’s, one for true WSP’s, etc.) who would lay the ground work for what constituted value.

Something that would allow competition among valid players; and a way to validate the players – one that wouldn’t be the old boy’s or old girl’s club, and one that wouldn’t be too loose either.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Arvand
Also, its very hypocritical of you to talk about certifications when you don't know what CompTIA is....
Wow, what a leap you made there. I certainly never claimed to be the authority on sysadmin administration. Admittedly, I told you that I know precious little of running a server. So where's the hypocricy, Arvand?

My point is that it seems to be far too easy to acquire access to a server and call yourself a full-fledged host. Far too many have gone that route and consequently screwed their customers because they were not able to properly manage the server they were managing.

It's like someone with inadequate training being able to call themselves a Doctor and run a practice. Personally, I find that unethical. Don't you?

Vito

Originally posted by numba1stunna
Well the people who buy and rent servers have the right to do as they please with them,its there money.I dont understand your point of making someone take a exam to see if they know about servers and what not,thats like a dealership saying they wont rent or sell you a car if you dont pass there exam on how to use it.



;)


You will not be able to purchase a car or rent one without a license, so in essence you have already passed a competency test.

Vito, I agree with you on this but you are going after the wrong people. It is ultimately the clients' fault for choosing someone who knows nothing about system adminstration.

When I read posts about people getting screwed over by hosts, I don't feel sorry for them. It just angers me.

This trend will not go on forever... It will all calm down soon.

Originally posted by Arvand


This trend will not go on forever... It will all calm down soon.

Once school goes back? :)

Originally posted by eBoundary
You will not be able to purchase a car or rent one without a license, so in essence you have already passed a competency test.


Yea you can buy a car without a license,just as long as you pay them cash.

Originally posted by Arvand
Vito, I agree with you on this but you are going after the wrong people. It is ultimately the clients' fault for choosing someone who knows nothing about system adminstration.

When I read posts about people getting screwed over by hosts, I don't feel sorry for them. It just angers me.

This trend will not go on forever... It will all calm down soon.
I don't see how you can say that, Arvand. There are thousands of people out there who have no clue what the hosting industry is about. They develop a web site, and they look for a host.

How do you possibly expect them to recognize a good host from a bad one?? Unless someone has Internet savvy, they can't tell one good host from another. They then fall into the trap. They are now open prey to inadequate server administration, inept business management.

It just seems that it is too easy to call yourself a web host. Surely, there should be requisites to branding yourself as a proficient operator in any industry, no?

Vito

Originally posted by numba1stunna
Yea you can buy a car without a license,just as long as you pay them cash.

very true, but that is a rather rare situation IMO

Greetings Vito:

I strongly agree with you there is a problem.

I believe the problem is large, and growing extremely fast.

However, I would be against government regulation.

I know you didn’t mention which government, but while I love the U.S., I know the U.S. government would probably kill things (no pun intended) when it comes to this issue.

I believe the answer is consumer education (somehow) and self regulation. I would be very willing to be personally involved (time, resources, etc.) in helping on these two issues.

Thank you.

Vito,

There are many places such as directories where people can go and find hosts that are highly rated. Yet, they choose the cheap host over the reliable one and get screwed. You don't need to know how to make a flash tutorial (Internet saavy) to search for "Web hosting directory" on google. I see this everyday on the requests forum where people choose the cheap host over the reliable ones and come back aching....

I couldn't say I agree with you on this vito. I know nothing of server administration, I have a hard enough time using commands in SSH to be frank.

This test would stop a lot of entreprenuers. It's like saying, "Let's test a system admin on how to run a business. If they fail, they can't work in this industry"

It's a good idea though. :D

Originally posted by vito
Well, in the real world, when you run a business, it is assumed that you have the industry knowledge to run the business. If you buy a "Midas Muffler" franchise, it's assumed that you have experience in replacing mufflers. Otherwise, you will obviously have unhappy customers. So taking that parallel to the hosting industry, wouldn't it make sense that if someone called themselves a web host, they would actually have some training/experience in the industry to justify calling themselves web hosts?

Vito
The problem is that it is relatively inexpensive to hang your shingle out as a web host compared to opening a "Midas Muffler" franchise or most any other business in the real world. If it only cost a few hundred dollars to open a Midas muffler business then you would a ton of non-qualified gear head wanna-be's opening shop and destroying consumers cars but the reality is it takes hundreds of thousands of dollars in the real world. With the prices of BW and technology continue to drop the problem will only get worse. Therefore it's up to consumers to weed out the bad seeds. Most of these fly-by-nighters work themselves out of the picture any way so in a way they're self-regulating the industry by their shoddy work. :D

Originally posted by arpmn
The problem is that it is relatively inexpensive to hang your shingle out as a web host compared to opening a "Midas Muffler" franchise or most any other business in the real world. If it only cost a few hundred dollars to open a Midas muffler business then you would a ton of non-qualified gear head wanna-be's opening shop and destroying consumers cars but the reality is it takes hundreds of thousands of dollars in the real world. With the prices of BW and technology continue to drop the problem will only get worse. Therefore it's up to consumers to weed out the bad seeds. Most of these fly-by-nighters work themselves out of the picture any way so in a way they're self-regulating the industry by their shoddy work. :D


Well said,you can start a hosting bussiness with $20 bucks,to start a franchise the requested amount is around $500,000+.

Originally posted by vito
Well, in the real world, when you run a business, it is assumed that you have the industry knowledge to run the business. If you buy a "Midas Muffler" franchise, it's assumed that you have experience in replacing mufflers. And why is that? Because Midas won't give you a franchise unless you can demonstrate some level of ability to run it, and will take it away if you later fail to maintain a level of quality.

So if hosts wouldn't sell their cut-rate "reseller" plans to any bozo who can fill out a web form and read daddy's credit card numbers, you'd be heading in the same direction as the muffler business.

But instead, as I just mentioned in another thread, most hosts offering reseller plans make it as easy as possible to get started and do everything the can to make it sound like a great idea and a path to quick riches: "Be a web host! Get started for only $39.00! Easy profit! Sign up now for our reseller plan!"

Originally posted by vito
Well, in the real world, when you run a business, it is assumed that you have the industry knowledge to run the business. If you buy a "Midas Muffler" franchise, it's assumed that you have experience in replacing mufflers.

Assumed by who though? By your providers? Do they not provide you with the franchise/server if you can't demonstrate the necessary skills? I bet they will. You'll eventually pay someone to do the work if necessary. By the customer? That relies on an honest approach by the operator.

I know a few providers who knew very little hosting (general and technical issues) and were taking on paying clients. Some make it by sheer luck. :)

Gary

I understand and would go along with Vito's concern here, but the answer to your question is IMO, no.

Originally posted by vito
. . . I'm referring to the ones who buy/rent a server with little or no knowledge of sysadmin. Those are the ones I would like to see fall off into oblivion . . .
How about the sysadmins who have little or no knowledge of running a business? You know, things like sales, customer, cashflow and business management. Those represent a large portion of operating a successful hosting company.

I dont think anybody is arguing that Vito is outright wrong about the fact that there needs to be regulation but I think most people agree that regulation would not be possible and is not the solution.

skipping back to the idea of a self-governing body, I remember a few years back when tommy from webhostdir and a few others (including myself) planned on creating a basic equivalent of a BBB for hosts. Unfortunately, after 9/11, our main player was no longer available for discussion (sadly, we could only assume the worst). After that, it just sort of died, however, I still have a great domain name for it: hostalliance.org

If anyone is still interested in actually Doing something about this mess that is..

Ok i think we all agree that there needs to be some kind of regulation, but the problem is how would it be implemented fairly?

I'm ok with Linux for basic network administration, but thats why I hire a company to handle most of my server administration for Linux. But when it comes to Windows servers I would call my self a "System Administrator".
But does that mean I should be only able to sell web space on Windows servers and not linux?
The problem with regulation is it can make it hard for people to get into the web hosting industry. Ok this could be a good thing, but we need to be careful about the genuine people.

Also there would have to be some big players pushing for changes in legislation, and if people do want legislation then it would have to be at the government level. Self regulation would not work.
People like Verio would need to get involved, but they won't. The reason being is these hosting companies that are set up after spending $20-$100 don't really effect Verio in any way.

Anyway who are we to say who and who cannot set up a hosting business, I can assure you that there is at least one person participating in this discussion saying "Yes for Legislation" that were at one time these people who bought a cheapy template and bought a server with little knowledge of Server Administration.

Running a business is one thing, adminster what you sell is another.

The perfect setup would be a gruop of people where one has read marketing and nows how to run a business properly with taxes, salaries and so on. Another would handle the administration of hardware, software, and clients. Then another would take care of correspondance and so on. It's hard to find that in ONE person, but not impossible. A lot of people think that Internet is the key to success without the need of money, kind of like a lottery, but with less risk.

The main problem is that people tries to do more than they really can, and they rely on others to help them for free, or just run with the money.

I have just entered the world of webhosts, with a new reseller account. I don't expect a lot of clients right away. In fact I hope it takes a while before I have a lot of clients. But that's just me. If I rent a server from someone, I either pay for them to administer it, or I do it myself. If I choose to do it myself I make sure I know what I'm doing. I know a lot of people are not like me. They don't want to understand how things work. They just want to know that it DOES work. If it don't, they yell for someone to fix it, no matter why there is a problem in the first place.

Greetings Arvand:

"There are many places such as directories where people can go and find hosts that are highly rated."

How many of those directories do not (repeat "do not") take paid advertisements in terms of how they list?

How do they base their ratings?

If on a voting scale, and a reputable company's customers don't vote, then what?

Thank you.

Originally posted by iVersit
If anyone is still interested in actually Doing something about this mess that is..

I'd be happy to help out, feel free to drop me an email with some more details.

Regulation isn't going to happen regardless of the high morals and fuzzy warm feelings of a couple of people.

Web hosting is like the 'wild west' and I don't see it changing a whole lot. The internet was designed as a system that couldn't be shut down (in the earlier forms), and is globally based, outside the vast majority of general government influence.

So here we are, running legitimate businesses, surrounded by everyone and his clown faced dog, shafting the customer base as they see fit - and for the most part getting away with it.

I'm the first to agree that the web hosting industry has a reputation lawyers and used car salesmen would shy away from.. but lets face facts.. all the puffing out of chests and indignation isn't really going to matter.

We just have to make our way, surrounded by thieves, children, and liers.

I can now see that regulating the industry is close to impossible for many reasons (stated by others in this thread). And just because someone knows their way around a server doesn't mean they are able to properly manage a business. So yes, regulating is not practical, or even logistically possible.

How about this? Would it be possible to have an accreditation system set up? Anyone can set up shop (as it is now). But hosts can voluntarily go through a course or a "testing" procedure to give them certification at various levels of system administration. They would then be allowed to display a logo on their site confirming their accreditation. Perhaps even extend it to the various control panels. cPanel, Ensim etc could set up a certification program to allow hosts to get proper training and/or certification.

I know, this too is susceptible to much abuse. But it would at least be something. Then a customer shopping for a host would have one more thing to help in deciding on a host.

Then again, this wouldn't be fair to hosts with reseller accounts. A reseller doesn't necessarily need to know how to run a server, as long as they have a strong upstream host. So perhaps the reseller could ride the coat tails of the upstream host's certification? Seems complicated.

Just thinking out loud here...

Vito

Then again, this wouldn't be fair to hosts with reseller accounts. A reseller doesn't necessarily need to know how to run a server, as long as they have a strong upstream host.

Hypothetically Vito, wouldn't the reseller be entitled to display the logo as well, as long as their provider was certified.
It wouldn't be misrepresenting anything because the reseller is in effect part of the network the original host develops.

Yes, that does indeed make sense, blue. No misrepresentation there as far as I can see.

Vito

My only concern would be the amount of hosts who would simply put the symbol on their site without taking the accreditation course. We all no that that would be a minor infraction compared to some of the things we've seen.

I thought about that. The only way I can see around that is to have the logo include some text that encourages the viewer to click through to a centralized site that lists all the certified members. They can then easily confirm if the logo placement is bogus or not.

Vito

Actually, the centralized site would not display an actual list of all members. I think some hosts would object to exposing their visitors to a handy list of competitors, possibly losing the visitor to another host. Perhaps it could be as simple as "Enter host's name/URL here". A script would then search the database and return a positive or negative response.

Vito

Yeah, it could say "Click here to verify" and it would go to the accredation site with the information about the host...however that may make things hard for resellers to use the seal.

Actually, when I think about it, my cc processor (InternetSecure) has a pretty decent system. You can put their logo on your site. The logo is hyperlinked which includes the merchant's ID number. When the visitor clicks on the logo, they are taken to the InternetSecure site to a page that verifies that the merchant is indeed a verified I.S. merchant and in good standing. Seems simple enough to code.

The challenge would be to keep the database up to date. And hosts would have to be diligent about adding resellers to the db whenever they get new ones signing up with them. In the long run, it would be to everyone's benefit, so I can see no problem in justifying the effort involved.

In fact, hosts can use it as a selling tool. When someone is lookng to buy a reseller account, it would be to their benefit to seek out a host with accreditation.

Vito

I don't think that Government Regulation would be impossible. I think trying to regulate technical qualifications would be though.

The goal of Regulation cannot be for competence but for accountability. Once you start accepting payments for providing web hosting services there should be accountability. The only possible approach to regulation has to be through the money trail. Once you start collecting money, you can be monitored. There needs to be Legislation in place for Banks and Gateways to be able to provide the IRS with information, similar to what they do now for ROI. Approvals for opening new accounts with the purpose of accepting money for web hosting could have a waiting period and an approval system. The anonymity is what needs to end with the web hosting industry. When people can be held accountable for starting up a business, raking in cash, closing it to open a new one in a week then you will see a decline in the *overnighters*.

Now could a system like this be abused? Surely it could, as easily as the Bankruptcy Laws are now. As the industry evolves new checks and balances could be added. Holding people accountable is the key to Regulation, and the means are through the money....

But IRS is only for US based hosts. What do you do about the rest of the world?

I also see a lot of retaliation from hosts who, until now, have enjoyed the unrestricted flow of new reseller signups. Throttling the signup process with requirements will cut into the bottom line.

BTW, Watcher, what does "Tuna are coming!" mean?

Vito

Originally posted by akashik
Regulation isn't going to happen regardless of the high morals and fuzzy warm feelings of a couple of people.

Web hosting is like the 'wild west' and I don't see it changing a whole lot. The internet was designed as a system that couldn't be shut down (in the earlier forms), and is globally based, outside the vast majority of general government influence.

So here we are, running legitimate businesses, surrounded by everyone and his clown faced dog, shafting the customer base as they see fit - and for the most part getting away with it.

I'm the first to agree that the web hosting industry has a reputation lawyers and used car salesmen would shy away from.. but lets face facts.. all the puffing out of chests and indignation isn't really going to matter.

We just have to make our way, surrounded by thieves, children, and liers.
Well said indeed.

Originally posted by vito
They would then be allowed to display a logo on their site confirming their accreditation.

Never been a big fan of logos. We never bothered with Hosting Assured/Find My Hosting as I seem to remember a 'requirement' to stick their little logo on our site. While we have a few on the index I felt theirs was just cheesy and tasteless so never bothered.

In the end these 'rubber stamp' ideas always seem to end up as little more than web awards.

Like many who've posted here, I'm wary of government regulation. But I'd be surprised if we see a regulated hosting industry anytime soon, unless events like the mess at FeaturePrice somehow put this on politicians' radar screens.

Regulation often comes about as a knee-jerk response from elected officials who are looking to score points with voters. Thus far, people who've been screwed by their webhosts haven't added up to a political consituency worth chasing. I feel their pain, but elected officials don't. Politicians represent specific cities or states, while hosting customer bases tend to be more distributed. Also, the direct financial losses are significant for small web site owners, but small change in the world of politics. Most hosting failures get little attention.

FeaturePrice is an example. Tens of thousands of hosting customers were affected, and the mainstream press has written relatively little about it. I'd wager few elected officials read the message boards and hosting news sites where most of this story has played out.

As for the merits of industry self-regulation, I think most of the shady outfits that do the most damage are unlikely to participate in that kind of process.

RichM

BTW, Watcher, what does "Tuna are coming!" mean?

Where I come from that means it's Bluefin season.

Originally posted by blue27
Where I come from that means it's Bluefin season.
When I first read it, I had visions of a B-movie about Tokyo being attacked by a monster tuna... :emlaugh:

Vito

Vito, I don't think you throttle the sign-ups from Hosts. I think you review signups for Merchant Accounts and Payment Gateways. Right now you can open a Payment gateway and be able to accept credit cards in under 30 minutes. That is where you place the regulation. Through the collection of money.

You're right, it's only a US fix however Regulation could easily become a selling advantage over other Countries that remain unregulated. . It could turn into more of a positive all the way around.

The "Tuna are coming" I need to change to "Tuna in the freezer" They are here now and I caught some already..:D When I first read it, I had visions of a B-movie about Tokyo being attacked by a monster tuna... Quick! Call up Godzilla!!
:emlaugh:

I would not be a fan of government intervention or regulation at all.

But I would not object to a self-regulating body, like, well, maybe for example, here or a similar well-established and respected site.

The accrediting body could make up all kinds of rules, like Host has to be in business x amount of time, maybe have at least x customers or servers, and be able to actually manage their servers, any BS outfits with "unlimited bandwith" and such are disqualifed, etc.

Over time customers would learn to look for the accredited companies and be more cautious with companies who, for whatever reason, are not.

One problem I see with this is the cash factor. If a plan like this was implemented, it would almost surely cost something. This might corrupt it depending on how ethical the founders are. "Hmmm, well you dont really qualify, but you advertise with us a lot, and have a lot of money - Ill set you up..." and then we're back at square one.

Good discussion Vito!

Originally posted by akashik
Never been a big fan of logos. We never bothered with Hosting Assured/Find My Hosting as I seem to remember a 'requirement' to stick their little logo on our site. While we have a few on the index I felt theirs was just cheesy and tasteless so never bothered.

In the end these 'rubber stamp' ideas always seem to end up as little more than web awards.

I have been using the Hosting Assured logo on my site, but it doesn't seem to benefit more than having your own testimonials pages.

I agree with the rubber stamp syndrome, it looks unprofessional and not enough people will adopt it to become centralized and truely legit - even then no custom will know what it is (soon to update my site and remove the hosting assured branding to promote themselves)

A government regulated industry would be the worst thing possible, just something else to get their greedy hands in:

I can see it already....


- Web Host License Tax
- Yearly License fees
- Bandwidth quotas similar to dairy farming
- Paperwork, paperwork and MORE PAPERWORK

To avoid any conflict of interest, perhaps the certification site could restrict on-site advertising to host-related but not direct webhost ads. Perhaps even have some of the control panel companies provide sponsorships to help fund the effort.

When looking at HostingAssured, the criteria for signing up seems pretty lax, and doesn't give that much assurance to the visitor. It states specifically that it is not meant as a certification. What I'm suggesting is something with a structured set of requirements that verifies that the host has is actually proficient in server management. Hopefully, with more stringent guidelines/requirements, a certification logo displayed on your site will actually mean something, and will be worth displaying. If it is just a gratuitous logo with little significance, then I agree, it ends up being nothing but clutter.

Vito

Originally posted by TowerHost
A government regulated industry would be the worst thing possible, just something else to get their greedy hands in:

I can see it already....


- Web Host License Tax
- Yearly License fees
- Bandwidth quotas similar to dairy farming
- Paperwork, paperwork and MORE PAPERWORK
Exactly right, TowerHost. Any centralized registration/oversight process has to be funded. The more "official" it is, the more it'll cost you.

I think that money would be better spent on enhancing your service and credibility so the marketplace can tell the difference.

RichM

Greetings Vito:

"What I'm suggesting is something with a structured set of requirements that verifies that the host has is actually proficient in server management. "

Could this not be done through industry self regulation as opposed to bringing in a government that pays $600 for a $2 flash light?

Thank you.

Yes. At this point, I'm not suggesting government intervention/involvement. I'm suggesting an autonomous body that provides testing/certification for participating hosts.

Vito

Greetings Vito:

If we can create a self-sustaining organization which would provide a form of self-regulation within the industry while educating consumers of the scary down falls of picking those who don’t comply… and if the creation can be done with realistic membership fees (maybe $1 per unique customer payable annually or broken down into quarterly payments), then I would be all for starting now.

Thank you.

Exactly right, TowerHost. Any centralized registration/oversight process has to be funded.

There is no reason that this couldn't be done on a mostly volunteer basis. Many things are.
Like Vito said, companies that are not hosting companies, ie. cpanel, ensim, could be tapped for funding the web site.

Greetings Blue27:

Actually, let hosting companies pay to be a member, but ensure equal treatment.

$1 per unique hosting customer on an annual or quarterly basis shouldn't be too hard to swing.

Thank you.

For those who haven't been around WHT for years, this has come up several times in the past. For example, this thread (http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=137635) on an "association of web hosting providers." Go about two pages in, and I've linked to similar threads dating back to 2001. The same problems have always become clear.

The biggest stumbling block seems to be in defining what makes a host "certifiable" (yep, I know that can be taken two ways. I'll just stick to one meaning here :) ). This thread started out focusing on things like knowing how to manage a server. OK, first obstacle: Linux? BSD? Windows? Mac? Are you going to test for them or something?

.. And then "scope creep" always begins. Members can't offer "unlimited bandwidth" right? How about "unmetered?" How about unlimited email accounts? How can you let someone in who's offering 20 gigs for $5 a month? Do hosts have to reveal their physical address? Can you cancel their certification if they say or imply that they own their own data center. Hey, what if they don't know the difference between a "NOC" and a data center? I'd kick them out for that! ;)

The point is that the more people get on the bandwagon the more agendas you have to either absorb or turn away. And many people bring an agenda meant only to help them and others with the same business plan, and to make it tougher for anyone else. That's, then, how you get a Verihost (only large companies need apply) or Web Hosting Guild.

A lot of problems were raised in those older threads, from the specific pitfalls of government regulation (and I can't believe anyone really wants that!) to the challenges of actually formalizing, finding someone to run the organization, etc.

As I've said each time it's come up, I wish the best of luck to anyone who wants to make it happen. And I'll give the same advice again: start out by defining your scope, and let people who don't agree with it find their own avenue.

I think what he was trying to say is that he doesnt like the way teh internet it bombarded with hosts. Just imagine what your country would be like if (for Example) the united States did not care if you started a businnes or not? It would be like mexico or cuba (Not Trying to get people mad) Where ANY one can start there own businnes without regulations or permits. Where you see people going around on bikes cars even boats trying to oversell or get the customer a great deal......it might be great for the costumer but what about the business?

FCC regulations will be cool. LOL
All the advocates have to do is put FeaturePrice and Cyberwing as the poster childs, and point to numerous threads here at WHT and at other forums. Plus the Big Boys might lobby for it so that they can push the Small Fry webhost wannabes out of business.
Maybe an FCC regulated TOS or AUP, methods of disclosure, sales tactics, prohibitions on unlimited bandwidth, standardization of refund policies would be in order. Then we would really see some big-time crying around here.

Off topic Idolhost, but you should study up on Cuba a little before making that reference.

JayC-Some good points there.

Also when someone buys a server provided they hire a good staff and good customer service staff, system admin etc. Then how much would the host actually have to know about hosting?

Would you then try to certify the host or the staff they hired? Who would you test out? Some regulations would be nice, but to institute it fully would be almost impossible.

Originally posted by intellec
FCC regulations will be cool. LOL
All the advocates have to do is put FeaturePrice and Cyberwing as the poster childs, and point to numerous threads here at WHT and at other forums. Plus the Big Boys might lobby for it so that they can push the Small Fry webhost wannabes out of business.
Maybe an FCC regulated TOS or AUP, methods of disclosure, sales tactics, prohibitions on unlimited bandwidth, standardization of refund policies would be in order. Then we would really see some big-time crying around here.

This is my concern. Many of you know (especially Texas residents), the one with the gold makes the rules. I can forsee regulatory fees, whether governmental or not, pushing the small and medium-sized companies out.

If sales tactics and limitations on offerings were in place 2 years ago, bulk reselling would never have taken place, as it was generally deemed as a faulty business plan. Tell that to httpme and mchost now, and they will most likely laugh....laugh all the way to the bank.

We've had many discussions over the years about how outrageous acts and offerings by webhosts should be regulated. Who will do the regulating? A board/association of our peers? Who decides who's on the board? A vote? The most popular? The one with the most money? The one with the most certifications?

Well made points, on all sides. However, you're making it more diplomatic than it really needs to be.

One of the growing issues in the business, is underage web hosts. You can boast and claim it's an insta-host package because it has a template, but not everyone has a large startup fund for a unique template, so they go with a $40 knock off, that's ok, that doesn't scare so much as when you see their a's and e's replaced with 4s and 3s. Anyways, I don't think Vito means a government/centralized board of regulation for hosts. If there was such a thing to regulate how you handle specials/blowouts/etc. it would make us all one company operating under a parent company, that is not the focus here.

So let's take a different perspective. Instead of following models like directories and testimonial sites, let's try something a little different. Based on the ChargeBackBureau, many people use them. For many people I've talked with, it has significantly reduced fraud by people who get hosting, and do a chargeback and so on. So let's try something like this:


We create a system that is volunteer and profiles hosts. I'm talking from the CEO right down to the commissioned salesman you talk to in live chat. How is this possible you say? Good question, it's very hard to point out many things, however in the US, it is 'illegal' for someone under 18 to accept a binding contract between the contractor and the contractee, so therefore, if the host is under 18, it voids the contract. That's the problem. We have all of these hosts who are fresh from the sandbox with a $40 Monster template selling hosting and closing shop and taking your money, and you are unable to do anything because they are not legally liable.

So now that was 'an idea' for a system that 'could' work, the idea is funding.. right? Would we want hosts to pay a monthly fee to be profiled? Absolutely not. I am a firm believer in non-profit organizations to regulate things like this. Donations would be accepted, but would not influence one way or another for how they are regulated. Remember, the system isn't built on click-thru traffic, but it's built on profiles of the host and it's employee base.

What's the purpose? Well, since we cannot check people's backgrounds and whatnot, alls we have to do is focus on the legal owner of the company in terms of certifying it is legal. So there are various options, a copy of your driver's license, and blurring out the SSN and the license number. Little weird, but it 'could' work, there would need to be more legal stature behind it.

Another way is to show proof of being inc./llc, or holding a business license in your state of operation, those can certify you are 18 years of age, since it's required that you are 18 to even register for either. There are many ways to take this.

Those of you who find logos tacky, join the club. There are several ways of doing it, a text link, logo, banner, etc. It doesn't have to be a cheesy little logo.

Now, for the cynical group. Before you give me the heat about they'll always go for the cheap host, spare me, I'm quite aware of that, as most of us all were at one point when we first ventured into this industry looking for hosting. While they'll get screwed if they do that, they learn to move on, and eventually will go with the more reliable host. Some are more naive, but most are not from my experience.

As for who runs the organization, personally I think anyone should be able to. Hosts, resellers, etc. doesn't matter, however there would have to be an agreement saying that you void your relation of the company you work for while you are working with this organization. That does 'not' mean you have to quit, but it does mean you are not allowed to comment on anything that comes up about your company, or use your position for gain.

Again, this system is not for click-thru, it's more of a profiling service. Verifying these hosts are legal w/ their age being of 18, and for international, we can find out what the legal ages are and work with that accordingly. Also the types of services they offer. We can also break ground on killing out the 'unlimited space and bandwidth' hosts out there. While it 'is' possible to allow 'unlimited' creation of POP3, MySQL, etc. it is not for space and bandwidth. Then this 'unmetered' thing comes into play, but remember, unmetered is usually different in connectivity/burst. Such as FDC they have 4mbit, 6mbit and 10mbit packages, while they don't charge you for traffic, there is a 'limit' on the pipe. So in reality, it is pretty much legit, you just have to know how to read between the lines.

I seriously think something like this is possible, it would take a lot of work, but it would definately help weed out the hosts who are frauds. Also, no bidding, or anything that influences special treatment would be a seriously pushed. Also it could list how long the company 'has' been in business, and list former names it was operated under and so on. Lots of ideas can come for this.

So please, don't think of it like a government, think of it more as a profiling of hosts and certifying they are legal to run a business. All their employees, their experience, certifications, and etc. would be great.

Am I to assume I have killed the discussion :o

Originally posted by Locke
Am I to assume I have killed the discussion :o

It would only be momentarily if you have. It will crop back up again in a few weeks/months. It's a good idea in theory, but it would never work widely enough in practice without some form of a monopoly.

Gary

Originally posted by Editor
It would only be momentarily if you have. It will crop back up again in a few weeks/months. It's a good idea in theory, but it would never work widely enough in practice without some form of a monopoly.

Gary
I agree. Good idea, but impossible to successfully implement, imo.

Oh great, another certification. by the time the IT industry in all it's variations is done, all one's income will be in getting and renewing all the paper and you'll need certification to expel flatulance. This whole certification thing is getting out of hand. And unless you give it some teeth like the CISSP, you'll have the same situation that has occured with the MSCE where you have 14 yr old certified MSCE's with NO real world experience ... BUT they ARE certified!

</rant>

Ok, I feel better now. :)

lol, you mean the 9 year old MSCE Networking Certified guy?


Anyways, you never know if something is impossible until you attempt it.

Originally posted by Locke
Am I to assume I have killed the discussion :o


You didn't kill it, it just took everyone that long to read your post.:D

Hmmm, Regulated, I wouldn't think that is the best route to go.. I mean, then what's next? The Internet being regulated? It will happen, but not for a little while(kind of is now with the p2p sharing..)
Nice instite though Vito, Intresting.
-Max

Originally posted by Locke
Well made points, on all sides. However, you're making it more diplomatic than it really needs to be.

One of the growing issues in the business, is underage web hosts. You can boast and claim it's an insta-host package because it has a template, but not everyone has a large startup fund for a unique template, so they go with a $40 knock off, that's ok, that doesn't scare so much as when you see their a's and e's replaced with 4s and 3s. Anyways, I don't think Vito means a government/centralized board of regulation for hosts. If there was such a thing to regulate how you handle specials/blowouts/etc. it would make us all one company operating under a parent company, that is not the focus here.

So let's take a different perspective. Instead of following models like directories and testimonial sites, let's try something a little different. Based on the ChargeBackBureau, many people use them. For many people I've talked with, it has significantly reduced fraud by people who get hosting, and do a chargeback and so on. So let's try something like this:


We create a system that is volunteer and profiles hosts. I'm talking from the CEO right down to the commissioned salesman you talk to in live chat. How is this possible you say? Good question, it's very hard to point out many things, however in the US, it is 'illegal' for someone under 18 to accept a binding contract between the contractor and the contractee, so therefore, if the host is under 18, it voids the contract. That's the problem. We have all of these hosts who are fresh from the sandbox with a $40 Monster template selling hosting and closing shop and taking your money, and you are unable to do anything because they are not legally liable.

So now that was 'an idea' for a system that 'could' work, the idea is funding.. right? Would we want hosts to pay a monthly fee to be profiled? Absolutely not. I am a firm believer in non-profit organizations to regulate things like this. Donations would be accepted, but would not influence one way or another for how they are regulated. Remember, the system isn't built on click-thru traffic, but it's built on profiles of the host and it's employee base.

What's the purpose? Well, since we cannot check people's backgrounds and whatnot, alls we have to do is focus on the legal owner of the company in terms of certifying it is legal. So there are various options, a copy of your driver's license, and blurring out the SSN and the license number. Little weird, but it 'could' work, there would need to be more legal stature behind it.

Another way is to show proof of being inc./llc, or holding a business license in your state of operation, those can certify you are 18 years of age, since it's required that you are 18 to even register for either. There are many ways to take this.

Those of you who find logos tacky, join the club. There are several ways of doing it, a text link, logo, banner, etc. It doesn't have to be a cheesy little logo.

Now, for the cynical group. Before you give me the heat about they'll always go for the cheap host, spare me, I'm quite aware of that, as most of us all were at one point when we first ventured into this industry looking for hosting. While they'll get screwed if they do that, they learn to move on, and eventually will go with the more reliable host. Some are more naive, but most are not from my experience.

As for who runs the organization, personally I think anyone should be able to. Hosts, resellers, etc. doesn't matter, however there would have to be an agreement saying that you void your relation of the company you work for while you are working with this organization. That does 'not' mean you have to quit, but it does mean you are not allowed to comment on anything that comes up about your company, or use your position for gain.

Again, this system is not for click-thru, it's more of a profiling service. Verifying these hosts are legal w/ their age being of 18, and for international, we can find out what the legal ages are and work with that accordingly. Also the types of services they offer. We can also break ground on killing out the 'unlimited space and bandwidth' hosts out there. While it 'is' possible to allow 'unlimited' creation of POP3, MySQL, etc. it is not for space and bandwidth. Then this 'unmetered' thing comes into play, but remember, unmetered is usually different in connectivity/burst. Such as FDC they have 4mbit, 6mbit and 10mbit packages, while they don't charge you for traffic, there is a 'limit' on the pipe. So in reality, it is pretty much legit, you just have to know how to read between the lines.

I seriously think something like this is possible, it would take a lot of work, but it would definately help weed out the hosts who are frauds. Also, no bidding, or anything that influences special treatment would be a seriously pushed. Also it could list how long the company 'has' been in business, and list former names it was operated under and so on. Lots of ideas can come for this.

So please, don't think of it like a government, think of it more as a profiling of hosts and certifying they are legal to run a business. All their employees, their experience, certifications, and etc. would be great.

Show me proof that you have to be 18 to get a business licence. There is no such law.

Was it absolutely necessary to quote the whole thing?

Anyways, that's information passed along from my lawyer. Take two and two, if you cannot file a business under your name if you're under 18, you cannot file for a business license either, you can as a 3rd party, but someone who is of adult age, who can be held legally liable, has to be a signing party.

If you have proof that shows otherwise, please show it so I can smack my lawyer.

Originally posted by Locke
Anyways, that's information passed along from my lawyer. Take two and two, if you cannot file a business under your name if you're under 18, you cannot file for a business license either, you can as a 3rd party, but someone who is of adult age, who can be held legally liable, has to be a signing party.

You and a couple of others are making the assumption that all web hosts are based in the U.S. and are under the regulation of our federal, state, and local laws with regard to business licensing. What about web hosts, kiddies included, who are in Russia, the U.K., or Singapore, for example? Our laws, rules, and regulations do not apply to them.

I think web hosts would be difficult to regulate through government as others have agreed. Laws around the world, business or otherwise, are not uniform.

Has anyone considered another, though imperfect model, ICANN?

Originally posted by Locke
in the US, it is 'illegal' for someone under 18 to accept a binding contract between the contractor and the contractee That seems to be a common misperception, but it's not illegal in the US to enter into a contract with someone who is under 18, and it's not illegal for someone under 18 to enter into a contract... but, if they do not uphold their part of the agreement, you will have no legal recourse against them. So the distinction is that it's not illegal, but it's risky -- the contract is not legally binding, but that isn't the same as "illegal."

Anyway, anyone seriously thinking of making this happen should think a little about the numbers. Maybe you could have some kind of impact in the WHT-member host universe, that small subset of the hosting market, but how many hosts are there? How many hosting consumers? What would it take to "educate" those consumers into giving any serious weight to the opinion or approval of this certification body?

Organizations like VeriHost, which was funded by some of the biggest names in the business and had lots of startup capital never amounted to anything significant. If you expect to become a significant factor in the process of choosing a host, expect to spend a lot of money marketing the organization, and expect a lot of energy and promotional genius from the organization's leadership.

Madj, you misunderstood, I was referring to US, as for Russia, India, UK, and others, I am not familiar with all of their laws concerning age, so I don't speak on it, I wasn't assuming all web hosts are in the US, that's just plain ignorant.

My mistake Jay, illegal was not the right term.

Originally posted by JayC

Organizations like VeriHost, which was funded by some of the biggest names in the business and had lots of startup capital never amounted to anything significant. If you expect to become a significant factor in the process of choosing a host, expect to spend a lot of money marketing the organization, and expect a lot of energy and promotional genius from the organization's leadership.

Verihost had basically no startup capital. AITcom started it. We politely went along. I believe a small fee (three digits) was involved. Nothing ever came of it.

People who run Web hosting companies are usually either too busy or too self-interested to be able to run the kind of organization everyone here is talking about. And almost anyone else is either unqualified or has money motivations (ie, biases).

Kevin

Web Hosting Guild was the other one that was around a few years ago. Big fee to be 'accepted' and ended up containing a few less that reputable large companies as 'board members'.

It faded away a while back (don't see it online at all anymore), but what started as an idea much like this thread ended up little than a private boys club for anyone who could afford the door price - which wasn't many.

Originally posted by sigma
Verihost had basically no startup capital. AITcom started it. We politely went along. I believe a small fee (three digits) was involved. Nothing ever came of it.
[/B][/QUOTE] "Lots of startup capital" was probably overstating it, but the point is that there was some momentum behind it, a $150 fee to enter so it wasn't out of the reach of most viable companies, but it didn't go anywhere. Unless you can convince a majority of hosting consumers that your approval actually is meaningful -- let alone get them to even have heard of you -- the same will be true of any similar organization. And given the number of those consumers and the number of web hosting companies themselves, there's little likelihood of having an impact in the industry.

That said, what Verihost was supposed to do is probably close to what many here are talking about. The membership requirements were:

· 24 Hour customer support
· A minimum of an email based system for customer support and response.
· Online self-help section available to customers
· 24 hour or less setup time of all accounts.
· Business registered in state of residence or governing authority.
· Financial Institution and proof of a business account.
· Test and/or verify the integrity of the claimed network connectivity.

That taken from the site, which is still up: http://verihost.com/criteria.htm


People who run Web hosting companies are usually either too busy or too self-interested to be able to run the kind of organization everyone here is talking about. And almost anyone else is either unqualified or has money motivations (ie, biases). Agreed. For most here it's clear that running a hostng company is more than a full-time job. So would be running this kind of organization. Unless you have the money to hire a full-time executive director, it can be nothing more than a sideline or distraction.

well I would love to see certification of some sort but the odds are very much against it. Most datacenteres are not even ISO compliant to the basic ISO rules ( if you don't know what ISO is, it's a level of agreed rules / regulation / policies and procedures that are formalized on a nationalized and world wide level )

In 1994 and again in 1998 I had to become ISO 9000 & 9001 compliant for my business and that costed 22,000 to do. Did it help generate more Clients, Nope. Did it secure already established business, Yes. did it help increase trade with established business, Yes.

When anyone can call themselves a webhost and datacenters are basements you will not have anything worth while with the certifications that are being offered.

Mike

What if a regulation system was put into place that is similar to that of online stores? I know www.pricewatch.com has a problem with online retailers offering rock bottom prices on top of the line hardware, and those companies take in the money, and dissappear off the face of the earth. Thats how places like www.resellerratings.com came about. Allow the CUSTOMERS to rate the companies. Maybe working with ResellerRatings to add a "Web Host" category to their already excellent database. Or creating a WebHostRatings.com site.

I myself would be more than happy to send a quick email out to my clients and ask that they go to the site and rate me as a host. When you get clients giving honest testamonials on a 3rd party site, that is where you will find self regulation. You can even put a link on your page saying, "Click here to view our rating!"

Categories could include Price, Bandwidth, Space, Support, Uptime, etc.

I was once screwed by a fly-by-night online retailer, and later found out that they had a rating of 2 out of 10 on resellerratings.com, and I will not buy from an online store that isnt listed there in good standing. I would only assume that web hosting customers would do the same, once they realize that there are incompetent hosts out there.

My $0.02
~Aaron

Originally posted by amish_geek
I would only assume that web hosting customers would do the same.


that is the key phrase, assume .... the truth is that most will not, since they don't know about it.

Mike

Then lets get a site like that advertised on the hosts, and on the list sites that list hosts.

How do customers come accross the web hosting site? They Search. How do hosts get listed in searches? Why couldnt that site get listed just as easily alongside the hosting companies?

A site that rates web hosts, could use the same routes resellerratings.com used to get its userbase.

~Aaron

Originally posted by amish_geek
Then lets get a site like that advertised on the hosts, and on the list sites that list hosts.

How do customers come accross the web hosting site? They Search. How do hosts get listed in searches? Why couldnt that site get listed just as easily alongside the hosting companies?

A site that rates web hosts, could use the same routes resellerratings.com used to get its userbase.

~Aaron

nope I'm not interested and I would think most host are not because they ( the review comapny ) are not bonded nor have the qualification for doing proper certifications.

no offense but any review company that accepts a USA firm that has a person under the age of 18 running it, basicially tells me that the liability issue have not been thought out. If I need to take firm to court and then the firm turns out to be an 17 year old kid, then I am screwed. Therefore, I need to know that ahead of time

does not matter that the kid is the best in the world, if he does something that destroys my business, breaks the privacy rule and or other regulation, I have no fall back to protect myself without incurring a huge legal bill just to prove that the intent of the minor was bad.

Also, all true certification companies do an onsite inspection, review of the contracts in place, and go as far as making sure you have leases that are valid for the time of the certification. it's a rather intense process. took me 1 year just to get ISO certified back in 1994 and was yearly inspected, also I had to open my books to show a specific balance and bonding.

just pointing out the seriousness of certification. back 10 years ago, if you had made ISO certification, you could reach new levels of business and keep getting even more business from you established clients.

Originally posted by Locke
Was it absolutely necessary to quote the whole thing?

Anyways, that's information passed along from my lawyer. Take two and two, if you cannot file a business under your name if you're under 18, you cannot file for a business license either, you can as a 3rd party, but someone who is of adult age, who can be held legally liable, has to be a signing party.

If you have proof that shows otherwise, please show it so I can smack my lawyer.

Hmm....3 years ago I was able to register a business when I was 16. Had no problem with that. Got a business licence, resellers certificate and even a right to collect taxes in the state of California.

You know what they say, laissez faire.

very interesting thread especially for a non reseler/host

Maybe you guys are talking way too far in advance and need to think about simplifying the idea.

As a customer what I think would help me more then knowing if someone is qualified is that they have a proper and correct code of practise and that this is adhered too.
Personally I do not care what qualifications or background they have as long as they provide what they advertise and support it fully.

What would be good (this is a very personal point of view) is a site that set out guidelines that hosts or resellers would agree to follow.
Examples would be honest advertising (how many sites report 99.9% guaranteed uptime or packages that are plainly ridiculous)
Support offerings listed honestly - the host/reseller states what response time they will work to for each package i.e. 4 working hours, 8 working hours and so on.

These need not be a pre defined figure but are a sign of honesty and integrity within the host themselves.

Hosts and resellers could then sign up to the site and advertise the fact and the site itself could be available to investigate any customer complaints that they feel the host has failed to resolve.

Should a host be found to be wrong it could recieve a warning, followed by removal for a second offense or something similar.

The site would be independant and barred from generating revenue from hosts or resellers but would be a self governing body.

Something like this in time could raise awareness of the stupid people like myself who want to host silly unprofessional sites and may actually get people asking why a host is not registered.

What it would do if nothing else is show that the professional hosts out there are willing and ready to be self regulated and even investigated and may provide more customer confidence for very little cost.
After all if like me you have a host that is totally inept where can you go to gain satisfaction or escalate the issue?