I just got this... Anyone else?


Return-path: <jsummars@hostopia.com>
Envelope-to: sales@jwshosting.net
Delivery-date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:41:09 -0400
Received: from office.hostopia.com ([216.251.32.139] helo=EXCHANGE1.office.hostopia.com)
by snb.venomx.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1)
id 15Pr0O-0002MS-00
for sales@jwshosting.net; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:41:08 -0400
Received: by EXCHANGE1.office.hostopia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
id <PVSYKXPV>; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:42:21 -0400
Message-ID: <4C13DED7F45C28458312B213063576DF32354F@EXCHANGE1.office.hostopia.com>
From: Jeff Summars <jsummars@hostopia.com>
To: "'sales@jwshosting.net'" <sales@jwshosting.net>
Subject: Web Reseller Utopia
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:42:20 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello John,
My name is Jeff Summars from Hostopia. I'm curious if JWS would have an
interest in partnering with Hostopia for outsourced web hosting. Hostopia
provides the ability to offer "privately branded" hosting, Miva e-commerce,
and Virtual Managed Servers to your customer base. Specifically designed to
address the needs of Resellers, and ISP's, Hostopia handles everything
invisibly on the backend:
* Voted "Best Host for Resellers" - Web Hosting Mag,
http://www.hostopia.com/top100.html
* Award winning "WebsiteOS" control panels for your customers -
Eliminate tech support headaches!
Demo: http://www.hostopia.com/demosplash.phtml
* Seamless blend of UNIX and NT - no need to make your customers
choose! ASP/PHP/MSAccess/MySQL on the same page.
* No Upfront Costs.

Let me know if you have any questions or would like more information. I
look forward to being in touch!

-What are we offering?: http://www.hostopia.com/what.phtml
-Hostopia Technology: http://www.hostopia.com/how.phtml
-Virtual Managed Servers: http://www.hostopia.com/how.phtml#VMS

Regards,
Jeff Summars
Sales Executive
Hostopia.Com
Toll Free: 1-866-HOSTOPIA ext: 6108
Voice: 954-463-3080 ext: 6108
www.hostopia.com

I emailed him and told him I hated spam and that I was posting about theis here and he replied.

I apologize John. I checked out your website and thought you might have an
interest in offering additional services via outsourcing. I realize you are
a web hosting company. I promise not to contact you in the future. -Jeff

Well, I think this is a little different than sending a spider out to get email addresses. Looks like he actually visited your website first. And he did say he was a "Sales Executive". That's what sales people do...generate and follow leads.

I got it too :angry:

I really do not consider this Spam. This is more like a cold call for Hostopia. As long as the company e-mailing me uses real information and names my company in the e-mail, and states where they found us, I do not consider it Spam. We have partnered with some good companies because they contacted us. I never would have found them if they didn't.

He found you the same way your customers do. It is just that he is trying to land a sale.

Originally posted by sbrad
Well, I think this is a little different than sending a spider out to get email addresses. Looks like he actually visited your website first. And he did say he was a "Sales Executive". That's what sales people do...generate and follow leads.

I agree. They are probably out looking for current resellers to recruit.

Got the same here ...looks like spam, smeels like spam ...its SPAM! :D

By law UNWANTED COMMERCIAL ADVERTISEMENT EMAIL is considered SPAM....

Did I ask for it?
Hmm.... Lemme think :D

Originally posted by Kiwi
Got the same here ...looks like spam, smeels like spam ...its SPAM! :D I'm sort of torn here...

On one side he's actually looked at your site... *shock*:eek2:

The return email is genuine... :eek2: :eek2:

And he apologised...:erm: *thud* Now if he hit you again then I'd immediately call it Spam...

On the other hand he obviously got bored and started just sending them to anyone because he obviously didn't check some of your sites or he'd have seen you were hosts... Doh!

I guess let's put it this way... I'd be more prone to think favorably of someone who replied and apologised politely and then genuinely left me alone as opposed to the lamers who just throw it at you with the usual false headers, etc...

On an amusing side note, my GF now wants to know why I keep getting email re: weiner extensions... :blush: :D

But he admits he knew I was a host ;p

And tell her your other girlfriend wants a longer one! ;p

Hi, I’m the guy that sent John the email. I frequent WHT because I want to learn more about hosting and what hosting companies are looking for. Today…I find myself grasping to learn what is, and what is not, considered “spam”. I would appreciate any feedback. As UmBillyCord mentioned… as a salesman, it’s my job to contact companies to see if they have an interest in our services. I found John’s website through FindSP.com. Of course I knew JWS is a web hosting company, that’s who I sell to. Most of my customers are larger outfits that want to outsource their low-margin shared hosting so they can focus on their dedicated and managed offerings.

-I saw John uses C-Panel--I thought he might have an interest in our control panels, which are included for free.
-I saw he also sells reseller packages – I thought he might want to take a look at our VMServers designed for developers and designers.
-From what I can tell, he hosts on RH Linux – I assumed he might be interested in offering a WinNT / Linux hybrid to his customer base.

I would have called John. However, like many hosting companies web sites, I could not find a phone number. I did however, see John’s name and an email address listed. So I sent him an email to see if he would like to learn more.

I'm not in the least surprised to see others on these boards have received emails from me…this is where web hosts hang out! If this is considered spam, I might as well pack it up and go home. My boss does not pay me to sit here and wait for the phone to ring. What do you guys think? Am I way off?

Jeffrey Summars
Hostopia.com

What do you guys think? Am I way off?
As I said above...I don't think this constitutes spam. And now that you've posted, I feel even more strongly about it.
I get solicitations from time to time, and as umBilly said, I would have missed out on some pretty good opportunities without them.
Now, I am by no means supporting spam...but I think we all know what is. The wienie stretching, the merchant account for nothing...things that was sent out en masse.

Thanks Sbrad,
Like I said...I'm trying to learn....what is wienie stretching? (or perhaps I don't want to know)

Just thought of something else. If someone gives an ICQ # in their profile, is it ok to contact them via ICQ to see if they have an interest in Hostopia? Is that considered spam, or bad etiquette?

Would you consider it SPAM if I contacted all your customers and pitched them a dedicated services offering? How about all your customers customers and pitched them virtual hosting options? Would it matter if I visited their sites? Would it matter how I got the list? Unsolicited has a pretty clearcut definition and the list of caveats you add does not change the wording. There is no list of ok things to do to send unsolicited email. Did I mind getting the email for my company - not particularly, but my personal opinion on the email itself doesn't change the fact it was UCE. You could include very personalized and individualized points about my site and it is still UCE. Arguing the ethics is in the gray area and that's fine, but arguing if it is SPAM as defined by UCE is a moot point (IMHO)

Marksy, You are right. I have been in internet related sales for 10 years, and I guess I'm kind of tired of the UCE definition. Believe be, working for UUNET for years led me to believe that the standard definition of spam is not only outdated, but also counter-productive to commerce in today's environment.
When selling to many high-tech companies, IE... web hosting and web resellers, typically the PREFERED method of contact is email, and, in many cases, it is the ONLY method of contact available. There are countless numbers of companies out there that are interested in the services that we offer. How do I bring it to their attention without it resulting in a "spam" witch-hunt?

Is my e-mail "spam" or not.....Please give feedback. -Jeff

Does anyone agree with me????


In all honesty, I find these kinds of guys (the kinds of guys that give me such a hard time) to be real hard core . Very proud of their big server or whatever.....Please....

That's what I''m trying to avoid....I'm only inteested in the guys's who have considered Ensim or Sphera, or systemsfusion, or Plesk.........I was the #1 sales rep at Ensim for the last 12 months.....and I can fill you in on the details......

Jeff I get 100+ UCE mails a day. Some are worded just as yours was. They say that they visited my site and call me by name the same as you did. I may have jumped the gun and should have waited to see if you replied to my email telling you that I didnt like that type of email.

As for not having my number on the site.. Thats because when I had it up there I got calls asking me if I was interested in this or that. Sorry but if I need what they are offering I would have called them by now.

As for how you can contact people without them acting like I did, I dunno. I think what set me off was all the links. Maybe if you just explain what you want and to email you if they want more info?

Originally posted by HostyGuy
Is my e-mail "spam" or not.....Please give feedback. -Jeff
As someone who's "been in Internet sales for 10 year," I would think that you'd know more about Internet advertising-related topics than most people. Guess not.

Personally I wouldn't mind those targeted offers if it wasn't for all the other "get a mortage quote," "repair your credit," "make $10,000 in one week," "HOT TEENS HERE!!!" junk I get so much of. Put it all together, and I'm just tired of all unsolicited e-mail, targeted or not (hint hint, HostyGuy).

Originally posted by HostyGuy
....There are countless numbers of companies out there that are interested in the services that we offer. How do I bring it to their attention without it resulting in a "spam" witch-hunt?
Umm... spend money on advertising?

Originally posted by HostyGuy
....I'm only inteested in the guys's who have considered Ensim or Sphera, or systemsfusion, or Plesk.........I was the #1 sales rep at Ensim for the last 12 months.....and I can fill you in on the details......
Great, now you're spamming WHT too.

Originally posted by HostyGuy
Is my e-mail "spam" or not.....Please give feedback. -Jeff

Your email (annoying as it might be) is NOT spam. It is a solicitation for business, it is the same as if you sent an actual paper letter via snail mail.

My feelings is that once you post your email anywhere in business you are open to receive email from people trying to sell you things. That is just a fact of life.. WHEN YOU ARE IN BUSINESS PEOPLE TRY AND SELL YOU THINGS!!!!!

That's what I''m trying to avoid....I'm only inteested in the guys's who have considered Ensim or Sphera, or systemsfusion, or Plesk.........I was the #1 sales rep at Ensim for the last 12 months.....and I can fill you in on the details......

Interesting.... I thought Patrick McConnell was. That fast talking, Porsche driving rep himself sold us the goods. :D

I am curious why you left Ensim??? Have a feeling the money will dry up soon and that they are nowhere near the financial goals they set???? I mean how much money can you make with ~40 ServerXchange customers? (I am guessing on 40).

Just want to get the vibe. Ensim reps paint a rosy picture. PM me if you like. ;)

When I get callers wishing me to listen to their crap I tell them to shove it and hang up. When I get letters in the mail I send them right back with a surprise coating then... NetSol must love the smell of,....

I have one place the sends me UCE every month with a message stating its a law in the USA that they can send me UCE as long as I can remove myself by clicking the link or calling an 800 number.. I called to tell them a thing or 2 and it was a recording... I set my fax to keep calling that number all night. :)

HostGuy,

What you sent, I wouldn't consider spam...

Next time you decide to test the waters and further your learning about what is and what isn't spam, please leave my Inbox out it. We all get enough of it without copping it from other hosts, no mater how much experience they have in Internet sales.

Gary

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
I really do not consider this Spam. This is more like a cold call for Hostopia. As long as the company e-mailing me uses real information and names my company in the e-mail, and states where they found us, I do not consider it Spam. We have partnered with some good companies because they contacted us. I never would have found them if they didn't.

He found you the same way your customers do. It is just that he is trying to land a sale.
Those two are completly opposite.
Your customers contacted you, trying to buy - and such requests were welcomed. He contacted webhosting company trying to sell - and I am sure he could not find any types of requests for such emails on the website. There is a big difference between those two.

There is no doubt that we do not like spam - certainly not about the size of my member, closely followed by suggestions of increasing my breast size........


However, this looks like a genuine sales call. It should say at the bottom about how to opt out of mailing lists. Apart from that its not really spam.

I think you guys need to give this sale guy a break. He has come on the boards and openly asked for help. Admittedly, he's getting a lot of publicity but maybe this thread shouldn't have been started in the first place because it does seem irrelevant and isn't really achieving anything other than giving hostopia free marketing.

Your email (annoying as it might be) is NOT spam. It is a solicitation for business, it is the same as if you sent an actual paper letter via snail mail.

I could not disagree with you more. As someone already pointed out, snail mail costs the sender, not the receiver. Email on the other hand costs the receiver - bandwidth is not free.

My feelings is that once you post your email anywhere in business you are open to receive email from people trying to sell you things. That is just a fact of life.. WHEN YOU ARE IN BUSINESS PEOPLE TRY AND SELL YOU THINGS!!!!!

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but most of use feel our information is private and having a webpage or an email address is not an implied request for solicitation - I think legislation will back this one up in time. It's also a fact of life that child pornographers will exist - doesn't make it right because it so. (that really is a stretch comparison I know, but the point remains)

HostyGuy - why not advertise or buy opt-in lists. I appreciate your concern about my business, but if I were truly concerned about alternatives, I would get on a list somewhere that informed me of options or troll search engines. If you were top salesman at Ensim, why are you finding it so difficult to make contacts now? Why not use the techniques that you had previous success with? I'm not attacking you, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Lastly, and purely personal opinion - I find the proposed distinction between SPAM and an email cold call or solicitation for business really funny...Almost every piece of SPAM I get is a solicitation for business!

I am really very sad about this. Everyone crying.. "Oh no!! My bandwidth!!! It's all being consumed by a mongering sales rep trying to make a living... Oh... my... I think I am going to cry...."

I don't like to get (UCE as some of you call it) junk mail just as much as any of you. Hey! I found my "delete" key many years ago. If you are that worried about UCE then you would take the proper action.

To the poster... You forgot the first rule of SPAM... Never Reply!!

If you have a very big problem then you should read these sites and do the right thing.

http://mail-abuse.org/rbl/
http://www.spamfree.org/spamprimer.html

I got one thing to say... "DELETE KEY is on the RIGHT!!"

:spam: :argue: :rolleyes:

If you place your email address on your website and have it specifically listed as contact info then I don't think you can complain when someone goes to your website, looks at it and contacts you to try and make a sale. If you don't want sales people to contact you at your place of business (your desktop) then place some text next to your email address stating no solicitation is allowed at that email address. It works the same way in the real world. If you don't have a sign on your business door then you can't complain when a salesman walks in and tries to sell you something. JMHO

....Jeremy ducks as the bottles fly towards his head!!!!!!!

*throws a bottle!*

My reflexes aren't as quick as they used to be. I think I need stiches! :buck:

JeremyL...so that's it? It's all over? SPAM, as we know it is no more, and it's duck season on anybody's email address that is placed on their website?

ALL we have needed...all this time...is the virtual equivalent of a "No Junk Mail" sticker next to our email addresses and none of this dastardly SPAM would have ever evolved....?

I don't think so.

Have you been drinking? ;-)

Gary

Hey. "Unsolicited" is not necessarily a dirty word. Do you expect customers to simply come to you?... Well, hey, maybe you do. In a more competetive, tighter market, however, you have to make cold calls, you have to take the initiative. This was nothing more than a cold call via e-mail.

Spam to me is when some jerk e-mails me and 16 million of my closest friends and advertises some crap or a multi-level marketing chain letter rehash -- with no way of opting out. It's not spam when there's a real live person to contact on the other end.

Oh, and by the way -- you can't claim that your info is private when you yourself hang it out there for people to contact you. So it's private... but not from people you don't like. Huh. If you don't want it out there, don't put it out there.

To be spam, e-mail needs to be bulk AND unsolicited. This was unsolicited, but not bulk, even if a few people have received it. He's visited your site, thought you may be interested and contacted you from your e-mail address there. I really don't think this is spam at all. If it's not welcome, that's fine and you can just delete it, but it's not spam. Not every unwelcome, unsolicited e-mail is spam, and while I respect your efforts against spam, you seem to be condemning someone whose innocent here.

You've been sent a genuine business offer, not some commercial crap.

And this is why spam continues, because some hosts allow it.

I figured I'd let some other people share their opinion before sharing mine, get all the flaming over with heh :D

I expect to get emails from individuals/companies regarding web hosting, software, etc. I (like you) get contacted all the time. I see no problem with this.

What I don't like is:


Sent from: 56fghrt43@msn.com
Reply to: 563hkjf@excite.com

"Now is the perfect time for a new roof!

To remove yourself from this list, email: 53gjhfgd43g@yahoo.com with the word reply..."

Not only do I rent and don't own the roof, but it is obvious that they attempted to hide all traces of who they really are, and are not interested in removing me due to a 3rd party spammer, or bulk software, etc.

Now that's just my view, and some of you might get agro over *anything* that comes to your box that you didn't ask for. I'm not that picky :)

Originally posted by HostyGuy
What do you guys think? Am I way off?


On one hand, as far as I'm concerned it does fit the description of "Unsolicited Commericial Email" meaning in other words, John did not request the email, it is selling a product or service, and it is coming via electronic mail.

On the other hand, this is sort of like telemarketing, for the majority of telemarketers, a real person calls and asks for you by name, having minimal to no knowledge of the business being solicited.

Had this been a telemarketing call, John could have hung up, asking that you not contact him again. In your case, he could have replied asking that you not contact him again. You have provided your companies name, and your anme as well as a valid email contact. THen, you would be obligated to put his company on a 'do not call' list.

I hardly worry about this type of solicitation in my email anymore, as the norm is bulkmail spamming.

boy, this is a toughie. i hate spam. i mean, i reallly reeeaally hate it. makes my blood boil and steam emerge from my ears, you get the idea. especially, as chicken said, those "get a new roof!" ones :) my filter list is probably 3 miles long. remember way back when there was *gasp* no advertising on the net? *nostalgic sigh*

in this particular case it's kind of hard to say. i am inclined to feel kindly towards HostyGuy because he is really making an effort to come in here and apologize and all that. as someone else mentioned, it's nice coz it doesn't feel like some bulk crap feeder deal :)

i usually filter out and delete UCE without reading it. most of them are directed to a few well known addresses of mine which ended up as de facto spam "dropboxes" - it was not intended that way but it just happened because they got passed around so much in those horrible mailing list collections and i had to abandon all legitimate use of them, they were so drowned. i've learned my lesson since then and keep my "important" addresses totally secret! :)

the closest i've come to HostyGuy's situation is with my domain names, which i at first used a decent "fresh" email address for signing up with, unlike the dropboxes i use for general net rubbish. i hadn't thought about *that* address being harvested, but to my horror, before long i was getting emails from people offering to do web design for my sites, etc. These emails are more specialized than the usual "buy viagra cheap!" bulkmails, i only get a few a month as opposed to a dozen a day of these, and i suppose they are much closer to "legitimate", like HostyGuy's "sales call" email.

The point is, I was so sick of spam that I had deliberately removed ALL contact information from my domain records. I then changed my "good" email address and left a "dropbox" one in the records (it works, but i can lose it if it gets drowned, unlike the "good" addy). I further changed the contact info lines in my domain records to read "Information withheld to avoid Unsolicited Commercial Email/Spam".

How clear is that?!!!! So, even if they *had* taken the trouble to visit my website, even if they *were* legitimately only trying to sell me a service - they STILL pissed me off because they had not honored my express wish, clearly stated right above the domain record email listing, that I did not want to receive UCE. Which clearly indicates to me that they harvested that email address and never saw the warning notice. *growl!* :angry:

I don't know, maybe it's just general commercial overload. I have to keep my phone number unlisted so i don't get annoying sales calls. I have to filter my mail so I won't have to read annoying spam. I have to throw out unsolicited snail junk mail every day (can i just say how much i detest Providian & co. for killing all those trees and always asking me to get credit cards i don't need or want?!). So, by now, I am so heartily sick of the whole thing that, as a matter of principle, even if it's something that may interest me, I WILL NEVER PATRONIZE SOMEONE WHO SPAMMED ME. I don't know how many people are the same way, but hey. The world has turned into a big fat data mine and all we can do is try to protect ourselves as best we can...

sorry for the long rant, all - this is not negatively directed at hostyguy or anything, it's just a general annoyance let-off-steam thing :blush: as you can tell, it's a subject near and dear to my heart :cartman:

Ryu, you do realise now that just by having posted to WHT, you are now eligible for as many "cold calls" as any host wants to land in your Inbox, and that this practice is condoned and supported by many hosts?

A bit melodramatic, I agree...but hey, how else is one supposed to interpret this thread?

Gary

Originally posted by Editor
Ryu, you do realise now that just by having posted to WHT, you are now eligible for as many "cold calls" as any host wants to land in your Inbox, and that this practice is condoned and supported by many hosts?


hehe :D WHT has been pretty good actually, i've never been spammed from this place before. Of course, i also don't allow email or PMs (except if i post *asking* for hosting offers, then i allow PMs for a short time) in my profile settings. And i don't leave any links to my websites. So there's no way to spam me from here. nyah haha... :stickout

I liked thier control panel but i dont trust the 99.9% uptime guarentee.

Has anyone used them?
What was the service like?
Does anyone know of a smiliar reseller?

[offtopic slightly]
but i dont trust the 99.9% uptime guarentee. While i can't find anywhere on the site how the guarentee works, in hostopia's agreement...there is a breakdown of how the guarentee works.. and what is available ofr compensation (if any)... Or it used to be anyway...

[/offtopic slightly]

While the email has the appearance of spam, the real contact information in the mail at least give it a form of legitimacy...

Oh no... I got an email from a sales rep that is in the same industry as me and is trying to inform me about new hosting technology. <<EDIT>>

Hostyhost-

<<EDIT>>

<<MOD NOTE:>>
We ask that you reply to threads you choose and not to tell others what not to post and calling names. This isn't 1st grade. We also ask that you keep commercially related wording to your signature (only).
<</MOD NOTE>>

Well said.

Hey, since you're clearly a respected member of this forum and a mod, could you breeze through all the other topics and inform people what they should and should not be asking about. That guy should have known better - asking other people's opinion on a board like this - it'd be sweet if they just posted a link to your email address so people could just ask you first if their topic qualifies them as a whiney baby before they post it.

Hey should I post this topic:
Should mods or people with under 10 posts be the determinant of what is ok to post on this board and lock rants that don't belong here?
or is that whiney? Let me know.

Originally posted by hostyhost
Oh no... I got an email from a sales rep that is in the same industry as me and is trying to inform me about new hosting technology. <<EDIT>>

Hostyhost-

<<EDIT>>

Anybody who has to come here and insult probably will be better served to come back with a different username.

Yeh.....I'm a whiney little baby too.

Originally posted by Eagle
By law UNWANTED COMMERCIAL ADVERTISEMENT EMAIL is considered SPAM....
Which law would that be? In which country, or jurisdiction? I can at least say that there's no federal law in the US that makes that statement, but maybe you are right and there's a village ordinance somewhere that says so.

Anyway, I guess that to me a consideration in deciding whether such an email inquiry is "acceptable" is what email address was used, and how that address was identified on the site where it was found. In other words, an email like the one from Hostopia sent to "support@somehostingcompany.com" is inappropriate. One sent to an address identified on the company's website as a contact point for "General Business Inquiries" is appropriate -- because that's what it was.

Originally posted by geekwannabe
I had intended a message but I was reacting to a case of mistaken identity.:)

Mods please remove my post if you see it. I tried to delete but could not.

Franc , how long does it normally take for an email enquiry to be replyed to?

Originally posted by Desperate


Franc , how long does it normally take for an email enquiry to be replyed to?

It depends upon the nature of the email.

Service and technical support requests are responded to immediately.

Sales related enquiries are first vetted by our VP of Sales and then distributed to our sales staff. This could result in a lag of up to 48 hours if the request is received on a Friday night or Saturday.

Most of our prospective Hostopians expect to be contacted during the work week and we like to respect our partners time on the weekends. Should we include a requested call back time on our feedback form?

If I could find a way to make my sales team work on weekends I would be a happy man.:)

Franc

:Sigh: They're turning into ***** with their spamming :rolleyes:

Yeah, I got some stupid spam snail mail from ***** with an ugly polar bear on it with pink glasses. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by MasterMindz
Yeah, I got some stupid spam snail mail from ***** with an ugly polar bear on it with pink glasses. :rolleyes:

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

SAME HERE!!! THEY STOLE THE ADDRESS INFO FROM NETWORK SOLUTIONS TOO! :rolleyes:

They didn't even bother to remove the NIC handle (what a bunch of dumbfu*ks)

Interland :angry: does the same thing. :angry:

Originally posted by MasterMindz
Interland :angry: does the same thing. :angry:

Ugh..them and ValueWeb now...

NSI is big on their mailing invoices...almost the same as spam :D