Has anyone researched the possibility of bringing in a few cheap business class DSL lines in to their house and getting some cheap bandwidth? I think Qwest and a few other National Providers have symetrical 7mbps lines for under the price of a T1.

In your home, do you have:

Redundant connections?
Redundant power supplies?
24/7 monitoring?


I didn't think so. No one in their right mind would sign up with a host whose servers ran off a DSL line.

If you're talking about hosting your own personal site, then of course people have researched that possibility. :) Personally, I host my own site and a few others from a server running down in my basement, connected to my 416/416kbps DSL line. It's plenty fast for what it's serving, but I'd never dream of making a webhosting biz out of *that* server.

Aloha

why ???
dsl is not that reliable to host on
also you would have to get proper UPS generators etc...
airconditioned room etc....

might not be worth it
also when the customers ask you what kind of connections you have and they trace it back you would loose them
at least this is my thought for hosting services
now if it is for a biz that might be a good way to go
I have 2 static ips so I cna have one machine on to play wiht dev stuff but would never host off it ;)

It will never make it..... I tried it before. A waste of my money. :bawling:

Gee whiz. For the price of a few DSL lines you could co-locate your server in a *real* data center.

Do it properly -- colocate or get a dedicated server! You will gain the respect of your customers. You do not want to become another statistic I am sure.

Plus - the more people who try and skank their way in this business - the more this business reputation is going to suffer. The consumer is the only one who is going to lose out and every time they do it makes it harder and harder to win their trust again.

Why not start with a colo or even a reseller package, but colo is better.

There are many companies that will rent you a dedicated server for peanuts compared to a couple of years ago.

When you do this you also have the added security of a solid infrastructure and room to expand cheaply.

If you want to go ahead with hosting on a couple of dsl's then go ahead but be prepared - it doesnt take much to gain a crap reputation even if you have the best will in the world just a search on these forums will tell you that much.

Good Luck

Originally posted by qslack
In your home, do you have:
Redundant connections?

Yep, I got 2 phone lines ..

Redundant power supplies?

Yes, I got one plug in the bedroom, and one in the kitchen that I can use with a 50' extention

24/7 monitoring?

Yep, except when I have to take a bathroom break :D

so does that mean I can build a NOC at home ? :cool:

As long as you have a bookshelf to set the servers on. :D

Originally posted by CRego3D

Yep, I got 2 phone lines ..

Yes, I got one plug in the bedroom, and one in the kitchen that I can use with a 50' extention

Yep, except when I have to take a bathroom break :D

so does that mean I can build a NOC at home ? :cool:

Originally posted by Woody
As long as you have a bookshelf to set the servers on. :D



Would a pine board and a couple cinder blocks do?

Originally posted by alchiba


Would a pine board and a couple cinder blocks do?
Ya, then you could advertise that your data center has "raised floors."

I did free webhosting on sdsl. To be honest I dont find it that crazy, of course that is free not paid, Im moving into a colo center on monday for paid hosting, but we had backup power. The dsl was never down to my knowlage(cept when I screwed around with the router and pulled the plug a couple of times :) ) There is only 2 real reason I would not do paid on dsl. 1. As said before you will loose customers if they find you on dsl. 2. Upgrading. Id rather wait a day or however long for the colo place to upgrade my bandwidth then wait 3 months for another dsl line to get installed. But with megapath.net 1.5mbps is just under 400 a month. Of course they have some wacky thing allowing you to get up to 7mbps.

Originally posted by IntelligentHosting.com

Ya, then you could advertise that your data center has "raised floors."

ROTFLMAO


Make sure your kids don't learn how to push "Off" buttons...

Premises Security: 2 Pit Bulls, and a parakeet

or

"Protected by Smith & Wesson"

I would recommend using your next door neighbor's basement to store your secondary dns server...just in case something happens to the primary.

Aloha

Our techs are so happy with our NOC that they have made all the comforts of a home so you know they will be there for you when you need it !!!
we have a fully stocked kitchen living room and bedrooms just to make sure we are there 24 hours a day for you ;)


(Please note if a young child answers just ask to speak to mommy or daddy)

as our techs bring there children to work, as we like to promote a family atmosphere and happy techs ;)

Yes, You could then you say you are so dedicated to your work that you sleep at your NOC! Won't they be impressed. :D

I would love to see some type of logo with a gun saying "Protected by Smith and Wesson" I think that would crack me up.

Actually believe it or not i've built a mildly successful webhosting company atop a DSL line.

In 6 months time I as able to acquire around 300 virtual customers and 1 dedicated (yes very small compared to what i've done now but for a DSL that ain't bad, not having a control panel really hurt)

It was running a Covad 1.1mbit DSL line (actually started @ 512k and incrimented up to 1.1mbit)

It was fairly reliable.. except for that two day outage when the servers got driven to the ISP's noc and plugged up in their datacenter *l*

I didn't own it I just helped out there and stuff.. left em for erm well we won't go into those reasons... I think they finally got a T1 but still haven't grown a whole lot from what I understand... (www.angen.net if your curious) Page hasn't been touched since I left a long time ago lol.

Is it possible? Yes
Has it been done before? Yes
Would I recommend it? Hell no

hi.

http://box0r.com

Originally posted by CRego3D
Yep, except when I have to take a bathroom break :D

I think those new chairs just came out with a built-in toilet. You might want to mention on your site that you offer true 24/7 monitoring thanks to that :D

i think it's possible..

Ok. I'm glad everyone here got a laugh out of my question. But when you look at it from a price per bandwidth perspective it isn’t so bad.

For $200 you can get a 1.5mbit symmetrical link. Granted you won't have super reliability or BGP4 routing. You will have the bandwidth that data centers like above net charge $1500 for, not including rack space and the cost of on site technicians.

Ping times might increase but when serving web pages it doesn’t really matter. Nothing that can’t be compensated for with a faster web server.

Add this to the fact you are physically located 10 seconds from where your servers are and it seams like an awfully good deal.

ok about 600 Mg pf Prozac or lithium should fix you all :)

Theres no way i would want to move my noc to my house.. Nope nada .. Nooo way..

every hear the sound of 600 power supplies going .. ?? the sound will drive you insane after a few weeks..

for 200.00 a month connection is good for a hobby, remember also the lines are designed for downloading.

Servers are outgoing bandwidth, and what would happen if you got 30 clients, no way to really upgrade the line. so then you end up moving clients to a real noc..

I`m sure everyone would love to have a ds3 to the house for speed and just being kewl.. but after a while it really is not no big deal...

actully....

hmmm

yea it`s kewl to have your own line.... and have all your frinds come over and dload that video in 3 secs ...


ok i`ll shut up now..

Ok. I'm glad everyone here got a laugh out of my question. But when you look at it from a price per bandwidth perspective it isn’t so bad.

I cannot believe after reading through this thead that you are still cosidering this. It shows that you have made up your mind and you just want sombody to encorage you.

Its a shame, but have you not considered that you could rent a server from a professional ISP for a little over the $200 you wish to spend on DSL.

It just does not make sence to me:confused: :confused: :confused:

In the webhosting biz, your company's reputation is the single most important thing. You need to guard it as if it was your life.

Clearly, if you host on DSL, you will either need to:
1) Suffer downtime AND limit the number of customers you have -or-
2) Move to an NOC
All are negative. Downtime is always bad and limiting the number of customers will make people suspect something of you. Moving to an NOC will also incur downtime.

There is a reason that 1.5Mbps connections from above.net cost more than DSL at the same speed. It's because above.net (and all other similar companies) invest tons of money in reliability and connectivity, whereas your typical DSL company doesn't.

I'll end this post with this remark:
Do not run a hosting company from your home off of a DSL line

Aloha
OK here ya go its hot do not miss out on this !!!
avail for first 1000 responses only

unlimited bandwith
unlimited space
I'll put on anything ya want
FREE WAREZ FTP !!!!

all for $9.95 a month (WHT Special $ 9.50 a month)

TOS:
unlimited bandwith is described as the amount of bandwith that my dsl line will handle or the amount my ISP will allow me to transfer so there! if you have a prob it will not be my fault
speeds I have no control over ? as dsl is very funky ;)
Unlimited space is described as the amount of room you can get to before others fillup an extra HD I put on my machine (oh and ya can have freee access to my WAREZ collection on that same HD for FREE !!!!! (since I figure I keep my machine on most of the time might as well make some money from it)

also please note:
I live on Hawaii so only call me between 8am - 12 pm (I take lunch) 2:00pm - 4:00 pm HST
OH and sometimes when I go for the weekend I shut my machine off so if your site is down wait till after the weekend it should come back up if it doesn't see hours above to call me.
anything else please feel free to email me I usually will respond within the week unless it falls on a friday or Monday
OH I can not give ya my phone number because it is not a business listing sorry ;(



( A joke of course for some of you that need me to say that)

unlimited bandwith
unlimited space
I'll put on anything ya want
FREE WAREZ FTP !!!!


:cool:
Where do I sign up???

Okay, first of all I never said I wanted to host customers off my homemade NOC :). But after reading the message board I'm NOT convinced it is a bad idea.

What about those people who don't need the reliability and don't have the money to spend. It seams to me there is a lack of facilities providers willing to provide economical services. Above, Exodus, Qwest, everyone has state of the art facilities. That's great, but not everyone, especially during this economic slump has the money to pay.

Are there other solutions out there that I'm missing? Granted the DSL lines I'm referring to aren't meant for hosting web sites off of, bandwidth shouldn’t cost 1k/mbit. I know Level3 has some solutions out there that bring the price down to about $300/mbit, but you still have to pay an additional $500/mo for a rack. For double that I can rent a whole single bedroom apartment with the capacity to hold 50 racks.

web sites off of, bandwidth shouldn’t cost 1k/mbit. I know Level3 has some solutions out there that bring the price down to about $300/mbit, but you still have to pay an additional $500/mo for a rack. For double that I can rent a whole single bedroom apartment with the capacity to hold 50 racks.

Please - GET REAL!

Our small datacentre has so far cost us $50000 to set up and run for only 3 months.

On top of that - our shopping list is at least 10 times that.

50 racks at 40u (2000 servers) You are looking at 400000 watts of power required - in a domestic environment - ARE YOU SURE you have thought this out? Even 20 servers require some serious juice. And have you considered the noise.

But after reading the message board I'm NOT convinced it is a bad idea

I believe it is better to leave matthewfong in his state of denial.:D

Aloha
whheee this is fun

OK this is sad you are thinking of it
but I am sure ya think about having $ex with pamela anderson so I know some things stay thoughts
Originally posted by matthewfong
Okay, first of all I never said I wanted to host customers off my homemade NOC :). But after reading the message board I'm NOT convinced it is a bad idea.
***** or one of the other great cheapies will do

What about those people who don't need the reliability and don't have the money to spend.

UH OK read above serious there are many places out there

It seams to me there is a lack of facilities providers willing to provide economical services. Above, Exodus, Qwest, everyone has state of the art facilities. That's great, but not everyone, especially during this economic slump has the money to pay.

do a search and read more

Are there other solutions out there that I'm missing?



you said it

Granted the DSL lines I'm referring to aren't meant for hosting web sites off of


this is even scarier that you are now thinking of running a whole rack of servers
can you say circuit breakers ;)
bandwidth shouldn’t cost 1k/mbit. I know Level3 has some solutions out there that bring the price down to about $300/mbit, but you still have to pay an additional $500/mo for a rack.

yeah that would be cool to see a room of racks running of dsl hehehehehe
For double that I can rent a whole single bedroom apartment with the capacity to hold 50 racks.


OH and I know you are just having fun saying this stuff as I am mocking ;)

I hope ?????

besides I allready started taking offers form above post
have 732 signups allready so act fast

OH on my above offer forgot there is a $500 setup fee
hehehehhee

later

I was going to reply to this thread... but decided it was probably a hopeless case.

Good luck, Mr. Fong... you'll need it.

(since I figure I keep my machine on most of the time might as well make some money from it)
hahahahhaaha. Stop it. My side hurts.

Matthew
what are you trying to do? correct me if i am wrong but matthew is wanting to start a webhosting company where he can HOST web pages (not colocation/ded) right?

If so, get real man.... Quit talking about how above.net charges $1500 for 1.5mbit, instead of goign directly to above.net, why not goto another company that uses above.net.. Go get a dedicated server for like $200, or $150. It will be on a fast connection if youc hoose the right place, faster then 1.2mbit, u would have total control, all u would need is some unix knowledge, to setup the hosting, and u'd be set! After that, you could either buy more dedicated servers, or upgrade your current to a monsterous server and have daily tape backups..

what i'm saying is far more better then whatever ur saying with this DSL stufff in ur home..... waste of time man

If you are interested in what i'm saying email me nodenine@hotmail.com

After that, you could either buy more dedicated servers, or upgrade your current to a monsterous server and have daily tape backups..
hehehe. I just thought of another one:

"Dear customers,
We regret to inform you that we are unable to provide tape backups for our servers anymore. It seems one of the NOC workers stuck a PB&J sandwitch in the tape machine, mistaking it for a VCR."

DSL Connection Problems (assuming your only hosting one or two server beyond that I will consider you crazy):

Line Hiccups, they suck and DSL lines have them.
More Hops, umm since your not connected to the net by a backbone provider (UUNet, Sprint, etc.) this happens.
Higher latency, because of the above reason.

Personally I think that DSL lines are OK but not for hosting webpages. I had a sdsl line for a webserver at home at one point. But that was just to store multimedia. Storing webpages would be crazy idea because of the lower quality connection. In many cases it can add an additional 10-15 seconds for the webpage to first appear (not the images just the text). If you've read any recent surveys you'll find out that anything above 8 seconds (with a blank page) is a major turn off for many USA based visitors.

Sorry that last survey was only made towards US based web surfers. I will try to locate the exact survey.

Originally posted by sbrad

hehehe. I just thought of another one:

"Dear customers,
We regret to inform you that we are unable to provide tape backups for our servers anymore. It seems one of the NOC workers stuck a PB&J sandwitch in the tape machine, mistaking it for a VCR."

hehehehe
and if he answers the phone someday please do not ask him any tech questions he is only 3

<insert crazy idea>

<insert 99 posts by WHTers saying it is a bad idea>

<insert post by thread creator saying that he is still going to go ahead with crazy idea>

<insert 99 posts by WHTers saying it is a bad idea>

<insert post by thread creator saying that he is still going to go ahead with crazy idea>

<insert 99 posts by WHTers saying it is a bad idea>

<insert post by thread creator saying that he is still going to go ahead with crazy idea>

Originally posted by CRego3D

Yep, I got 2 phone lines ..

Yes, I got one plug in the bedroom, and one in the kitchen that I can use with a 50' extention

Yep, except when I have to take a bathroom break :D

so does that mean I can build a NOC at home ? :cool:

PEOPLE ON EARTH HAVE HOMES WITH NOC's
NICE IDEA FOR MY PLANET
:D :D :D :D :D

So matthewfong, are you still going after this idea or do we have to send Anne Robinson after you ??
:D :D :D :D :D

Originally posted by qslack
I'll end this post with this remark:
Do not run a hosting company from your home off of a DSL line
RIGHT!!! Use a cable modem instead!!!

heh, I think my cable is 2 times faster then my dsl

Originally posted by qslack
<insert crazy idea>

<insert 99 posts by WHTers saying it is a bad idea>

<insert post by thread creator saying that he is still going to go ahead with crazy idea>

<snip>


Sounds like an accurate summary to me.

Originally posted by davidb
heh, I think my cable is 2 times faster then my dsl


i think you should also keep dial-up account for backup purpose just in case . . .
:D :D

Originally posted by neon202



i think you should also keep dial-up account for backup purpose just in case . . .
:D :D

Aloha

heheheheheeheh

yeah
we have a dsl line and 2 56k modems we bind together for our bu so your unlimited bandwith server will always be available.

Fong doesn't seem to want to host customers on his "NOC," just run a few small sites that don't need the great "reliability" of a datacenter. Most of you wouldn't find lightning rods, seismicly braced racks, and wind resistant building materials as ridiculous as a homemade "NOC" for small sites, or dare I say, clients. The none to few times that any of those listed pieces of equipment would be used is the exception.

It seems sometimes that all the extra "Reliability" in real NOCs are just a way to get more money from you. If Fong wants to host anything off of a DSL line, let him. I have friends who have 99% uptime on DSL with a power backup UPS. What would be the great difference between his 99% and the 99% of a server at VDI? And no, his situation is not any different than if anyone were to setup a DSL server in his/her own home (except maybe in a rolling blackout affected area).

As for his mention of renting an apartment, he was trying to prove a point, not state his plans. $500 racks also proves my point of companies using their "Reliability" as an excuse to charge more. A generator, a UPS, an air conditioner, and a rack without bandwidth in my mind does not equate to $500 a month. For < 4 months of a bandwidthless rack I could air condition, UPS, and backup generate my basement. Not saying I would, but I could produce a comparable product for a lot less.

Everyone seems to shoot down anything running off of DSL or Cable without even considering its actual uptime, only the potential downtime.


Andrew

It seems sometimes that all the extra "Reliability" in real NOCs are just a way to get more money from you.
This is the only part of your post I will mention, because the rest of it is just plain silly.
I'm sick of people thinking that everything internet-related should be free...or at least cheap.
I don't own a data center myself, but if I spent the money on a building, generators (and we're not talking about $200 Homelite's here), UPS, a cooling system (generally not standard either...usually a dataaire system or something that is controlled by computer), security (biometric, key cards), routers, switches, oc-3 line, racks, cages, sysadmins and support personel, I would think I would be entitled to get some sort of good return on my investment.

If you want to run YOUR business on a dsl line, then have at it. But I think my customers are worth more than that. But that's ok...I'll be here to scoop them up when they find out their entire business can be destroyed in an instant if your neighbor in the apartment next door burns the place down.

Fact is that when you're talking about a small area, you don't need the same equipment that a huge area would need.

And you completely ignored me asking the different between the 99% uptime of a DSL server and the 99% uptime of a NOC server (i'm not talking bandwidth, although for one server there shouldn't be much of a problem on a 1.5mbps dsl line). Yes, how silly, a valid point.

If I wanted to light a NOC on fire it would be no more difficult than lighting a house on fire. I'm sure your imagination can come up with plenty of ways. Now THAT is just plain silly.


Andrew

And you completely ignored me asking the different between the 99% uptime of a DSL server and the 99% uptime of a NOC server
You show me someone that has 99% uptime on a dsl line, and I'll show you someone that's damned lucky.

If I wanted to light a NOC on fire it would be no more difficult than lighting a house on fire.
If that's true, I would have serious issues with the company I paid thousands of dollars to to install the gaseous fire suppression system.

I was hoping to not have to give an example, but for the imagination-challenged sbrad, here you are: some guy sends you a rack full of servers with bombs in them. I can't imagine those thousands of dollars well spent when the system can't put out a fire that connects two floors of your building.


Andrew

Originally posted by cimshimy
I was hoping to not have to give an example, but for the imagination-challenged sbrad, here you are: some guy sends you a rack full of servers with bombs in them. I can't imagine those thousands of dollars well spent when the system can't put out a fire that connects two floors of your building.


So, what type of bombs are you talking about? If you are referring to standard, OTS, unabomber stuff then yes, the racks themselves will supress a lot of the damage and the fire supressant system will put out any fire that develops.

If you are talking about a thermonuclear weapon that you have embedded into a server with the express purpose of blowing up a data center, then you've got us there smarty pants. The nuke will destroy the data center and most, if not all, of the racks in it. Although many data centers are built to be able to withstand the force of a small nuke...so it would not affect the surrounding areas.

The good news is, the types of companies that build these huge, waste of your money, data centers generally have business insurance that will compensate customers who were impacted by the nuke.

I'm willing to bet that if you are hosting customers out of your house, you will not even be able to get business insurance, so when your kid shoves her PB & J into the servers CD-Rom drive and destroys your server, your customers will have to wait 3 weeks until you earn enough money at McDonald's to buy a new E-Machine to put their sites back on.

Please do us all a favor:

Please let us know your full name, mailing address, e-mail address, and phone number (as well as any aliases you may use) so that the hosts on this board will know not to accept any servers from you.

Okay, lets assume I have two DSL lines each with 95% reliability that would equate to 99.75% total reliability. 99.75% reliability is greater than the SLA's guaranteed by most major ISPs and content providers and it is darn greater than the reliability of my ***** dedicated server account or my rackshack.net/cobaltrack.com Cobalt Raqs. This doesn’t even include the fact that when my dedicated server goes down on ***** it takes them over twenty-four hours to get the darn thing rebooted.

The reliability of my PacBell DSL line is actually much higher than 95% but we'll just say 95%. Most of the 5% downtime is caused on the ISP side of things and not the actual telephone side of things. Heck, my phone service has close to 100% reliability. In regards to power, I haven't had a power outage in over 2 years.

Of course the networking guru's would ask how can you get redundancy on two entry level DSL lines without BGP and all that other technical stuff. I promise you it is simply done with two DNS servers and low TTL values.

I'm not saying running a web server out of my house can have the same reliability as collocating servers as a state of the art data center. But to be quite frank, I'm tired of the Exodus guys hassling me when I forget my badge or the Qwest people staring me down with those guns that we all know have never been used.

Okay, lets assume I have two DSL lines each with 95% reliability that would equate to 99.75% total reliability.

No it wouldn't. You can't do BGP with two DSL lines (at least its not allowed), IPs will be router to one DSL line only. You might be able to maintain a 99.75% outbound internet connection but inbound the routing will be to the *down* DSL line.

Also, what makes you think that both won't go down at the same time, especially if they're on the same telco.

DNS Updating. This is a very poor work around. You'll also have to base your DNS servers in a real NOC otherwise they'll be down too. Plus not all ISPs take the low TTL and will cache the IP locally for anything upto 24hrs. Plus I doubt you would know if one DNS line is down when you're fast a sleep.

Try It and then come back and say 'been there done that'. You certainly won't be sucessful.

You might be able to get two DSL connections, but it wouldn't matter. Here in my area, we have two DSL providers: Interaccess and Ameritech. Interaccess (my ISP) simply uses Ameritech's system, and charges a bit more for it (but has much better service and support). I bet that in most areas, there's only one DSL provider.

I host my own site and a few others from a DSL line. I have gotten more than 99.9% uptime since I started (February 2001) but I've been very lucky.

Yes, you *can* make a NOC in your house. You also can jump up and down with a 500lb baby cow in your arms. The point here is that you can, but you don't want to and shouldn't.

This is actually a very simple setup. Two DNS servers, one binded to the IP of one DSL line, the other binded to the IP of the second DSL line.

The first DNS server binded to the first DSL line responds with an IP address of the first DSL line.

The second DNS server, binded to the second DSL line, responds with an IP address of the second DSL line.

If one DNS server is down, the querying DNS server would get a response from the opposite DNS server, ensuring the end user is routed down the open pipe.

Some DNS servers have problems with TTL values set to 0, but most have no problem accepting values of 300 (seconds) or lower. In fact this is a common load balancing practice with Akamai and other Web Acceleration companies.

The '24 hour' caching you are referring to is caused by ISPs using standard TTL values of up to a week and not a problem with recursive DNS servers caching old data.

In addition, the end user takes the fastest route to your data during periods when both DSL lines are up :)

Despite my low numbers of posts, and my observed stupidity, this setup will work.

Lets assume there is only one DSL provider, which isn't the case cause there are several. Even if they did all use physical lines from Pacific Bell, it isn't the physical lines that cause the 5% down time. I'm not a DSL expert, but the physical lines should have the same reliability as your copper phone lines.

But besides DSL, there are cable modems and Sprint's Broadband service, all competing for your business. There is so much competition in the broadband market place, that someone could easily take advantage of this to host a few servers or websites.

The prices are so low, that even if I did purchase space in a data center, I would seriously consider brining a DSL line into the data center for some cheap bandwidth.

Despite my low numbers of posts, and my observed stupidity, this setup will work.
No one said you were stupid. Just hard-headed. I say go for it. You obviously have your mind made up.

Of course, there is also the problem of getting more than one DSL line. Also, if both of your DSL lines are served via the same DSLAM, then if it goes down, which does happen, you're SOL.

I will admit, I did look into using DSL once..... but, further research showed that either leased line, or frame relay would be much better.

Aloha

OK here it goes
now go for it you have your mind made up
the good thing about doing it at home is it will be free
so learn with it but do not decieve people do a bunch of test accounts and such then whne ya want to get real with it get a colo this way you have learned a great deal by then ;)

Please let us know your full name, mailing address, e-mail address, and phone number (as well as any aliases you may use) so that the hosts on this board will know not to accept any servers from you.

Exactly why I didn't want to give an example. Thanks, sir.


Andrew

http://www.insanepictures.com/pic.shtml?0064.jpg or they could use this

well matt

If you are so sure your dsl provider is so great, and they never go down, why not look into colocating a machine with theM? ask them about it see if they let you (for a charge of course)

Save your rep.

Originally posted by matthewfong
This is actually a very simple setup. Two DNS servers, one binded to the IP of one DSL line, the other binded to the IP of the second DSL line.

The first DNS server binded to the first DSL line responds with an IP address of the first DSL line.

The second DNS server, binded to the second DSL line, responds with an IP address of the second DSL line.


Okay, so, now you are assigning each client two IP addresses?

Assuming your DSL providers are not going to supply you with enough IPs to give each customer 2 IPs, how do you plan to configure Apache to listen to both IPs for the same website?


If one DNS server is down, the querying DNS server would get a response from the opposite DNS server, ensuring the end user is routed down the open pipe.

Some DNS servers have problems with TTL values set to 0, but most have no problem accepting values of 300 (seconds) or lower. In fact this is a common load balancing practice with Akamai and other Web Acceleration companies.


Umm...some ISPs, such as AOL won't accpet TTLs less than 900 seconds, or 15 minutes. Also, Akamai accelerates but does not Load Balance per se...it's more like proximity redirection.

Regardless, the fact that you have to go to thse extremes indicates that there is a problem with your setup, and you should follow the advice of people on this board and colocate somewhere.

Either that...or make sure you post on your website that you provide redundant connections, except for AOL users.



In addition, the end user takes the fastest route to your data during periods when both DSL lines are up :)


No they won't. DNS work in a round robin fashion. Every other visitor is going to be served one DNS server then the other. DNS does not check the fastest route, it tries the frist IP it is fed, if that fails, it goes to the second one 30 seconds later.

Bottom line is what everyone else here has already said:

You can absolutely host sites on your DSL/Cable/Modem lines, but you are not providing a high quality, high availability product and you are doing your customer a disservice.

One other thing...given the reputation ***** has on this board, saying you can provide better uptime then them is not saying much.

Actually, to be completely honest, I have decided a while ago to take the dedicated server route. A situation came up where I needed some really cheap bandwidth and I started to explore some past options.

That aside, I still see no reason why running a few web servers off a few DSL lines would be a bad idea.

I go away to school, so I loose a lot of the benefits of running a data center out of my house, although my parents are probably more helpful than the technicians at ***** ;)

Behind Cogent, Level3 seams to provide the cheapest per megabit bandwidth. Does anyone have two or three u's in a *real* data center connected to Level3 that I might be able to lease (preferably in the Bay Area)?

Matt

In reply to uuallen, setting up apache to listen to multiple IP addresses is as simple as adding two Virtual Host records.

With providers like AOL that have off standard software, they usually have other mechanisms, which allow the user to access web sites when they are down. Most use some sort of web cache, so for the select number of users who use AOL, there won't be a problem.

And you are wrong about DNS using round robin. All bind distributions use round trip time. Bind accepts the first response it gets, ensuring the fastest route.

With that said, I still don't see why it would not work.

Oh...I actually only mentioned ***** because it was mentioned as an alternative to running a Data Center out of my house :)

Matt

Originally posted by matthewfong

And you are wrong about DNS using round robin. All bind distributions use round trip time. Bind accepts the first response it gets, ensuring the fastest route.


You are wrong, the name servers are given in a round robin distribution...DNS does not care about performance:



[allan@ns1 allan]$ dig @127.0.0.1 allan.org NS

; <<>> DiG 8.3 <<>> @127.0.0.1 allan.org NS
; (1 server found)
;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch
;; got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 6
;; flags: qr aa rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 2
;; QUERY SECTION:
;; allan.org, type = NS, class = IN

;; ANSWER SECTION:
allan.org. 10h40m IN NS auth50.ns.uu.net.
allan.org. 10h40m IN NS ns1.vbind.com.

;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
auth50.ns.uu.net. 59m57s IN A 198.6.1.161
ns1.vbind.com. 10h40m IN A 206.131.250.19

;; Total query time: 1 msec
;; FROM: ns1 to SERVER: 127.0.0.1
;; WHEN: Sun Jul 22 22:09:18 2001
;; MSG SIZE sent: 27 rcvd: 116

[allan@ns1 allan]$ dig @127.0.0.1 allan.org NS

; <<>> DiG 8.3 <<>> @127.0.0.1 allan.org NS
; (1 server found)
;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch
;; got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 6
;; flags: qr aa rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 2
;; QUERY SECTION:
;; allan.org, type = NS, class = IN

;; ANSWER SECTION:
allan.org. 10h40m IN NS ns1.vbind.com.
allan.org. 10h40m IN NS auth50.ns.uu.net.

;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
ns1.vbind.com. 10h40m IN A 206.131.250.19
auth50.ns.uu.net. 59m56s IN A 198.6.1.161

;; Total query time: 1 msec
;; FROM: ns1 to SERVER: 127.0.0.1
;; WHEN: Sun Jul 22 22:09:19 2001
;; MSG SIZE sent: 27 rcvd: 116




That's why companies like Akamai, F5, and Alteon have to come up with work arounds.

It does Round Robin..

Matt> why don't you go ahead with your plans and let us know after 1 year. Like everyone has said, for personal hosting, research and development sites you should be ok with a dsl line. On the other hand if you plan to use it to host client sites then NO , either co-locate your own servers or build a Real NOC :)

Bind uses round trip time, search for it on any news group. The only dns server I’m familiar with that uses round robin is DJB Dns, but djbdns is a small majority of the recursive dns servers on the internet.

It is the reason why f.root-servers.net receives more traffic than i.root-servers.net. (f is located in silicon valley, i is who knows where). But then again this isn't a DNS discussion board, but if you would like me to explain it to you offline, be sure to email or AIM me.

Matt

So I think all I need is a few more posts to this subject and it will get a '5' next to the subject line.

Hehe..this is cool...how many more posts do I need to post till I become upgraded from 'Newbie'?

Originally posted by matthewfong
Bind uses round trip time, search for it on any news group. The only dns server I’m familiar with that uses round robin is DJB Dns, but djbdns is a small majority of the recursive dns servers on the internet.

It is the reason why f.root-servers.net receives more traffic than i.root-servers.net. (f is located in silicon valley, i is who knows where). But then again this isn't a DNS discussion board, but if you would like me to explain it to you offline, be sure to email or AIM me.


Hold on skippy, I don't need you to explain to me how DNS works, and since DNS is an integral part of hosting, it is germaine to this board.

You changed your question mid-stride. You are right, queries to the root nameservers are based on performance, but that is not what you are describing in your scenario...unless you are planning on running a root name server off of your 2 DSL lines.

When you query the root nameserver for the NS Records of a domain it is going to return them in a round robin fashion. It is NOT going to determine performance. Even if the root nameserver wanted to determine performance it could not determine performance from the caching name server to to the authoritative nameserver. So it would be pointless for the root nameservers to do performance checks against the the two authoritative DNS servers. Which is what you originally said it does.

Allan is 100% correct... that's why he's "root"....

Besides, when a name server makes a query, it'll ask NS1 about a domain first, then NS2 if it doesn't receive a response.

so i guess matt ignored everything everyone said to him? even the advice? heh.

sad

go ahead with your plans already, its clear you want to, you just want to look cool and have a 5 page thread for your dsl webhosting topic.

-node

I'm writing this just to get one step closer to the magic 5 :)

uuallan,

Root name server do not establish round trip time. If they did, the DNS tricks Akamai and F5 play would not work.

However when a Bind server receives two records it sends a query to both at the same time. Whichever response it receives back first, it takes and stores it's information, and ignores the second response/answer.

Bind also keeps an internal note that ns1.b.com responded faster than ns2.b.com and thus all subsequent queries that have both ns1.b.com and ns2.b.com as authoritative are directed to ns1.b.com.

It is a common misunderstanding that DNS servers are 'primary' and 'secondary'. JTY’s observation is not true. All authoritative DNS servers are considered equal. The assumption dates back to the wording of the old Internic registration templates which calls the first name server primary and the second authoritative.

Matt

http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/notes.html

If you go the above website and scroll down to "DNS Server Selection" you will see what I have been arguing.

Don't worry, when it comes to DNS, I'm not a Newbie (that makes 15 Posts)

Matt

Originally posted by matthewfong

Root name server do not establish round trip time. If they did, the DNS tricks Akamai and F5 play would not work.


I'm aware of that, that's what I said.


However when a Bind server receives two records it sends a query to both at the same time. Whichever response it receives back first, it takes and stores it's information, and ignores the second response/answer.


When a query is made, the caching server collects the information, and tries the first nameserver listed. If it is unable to reach the first nameserver it tries the second nameserver 30 seconds later.



It is a common misunderstanding that DNS servers are 'primary' and 'secondary'. JTY’s observation is not true. All authoritative DNS servers are considered equal. The assumption dates back to the wording of the old Internic registration templates which calls the first name server primary and the second authoritative.


What??? I would suggest you pick up a copy of DNS & Bind quickly. All authoritative DNS servers are not equal. Generally, although this does not have to be the case, the primary nameserver is a master and all of the other nameservers pull their information from the master using slave zones. So, there is a very big distinction between the two that is commonlyl used today.

Here is what the Network Solutions template calls them, and I have older templates that refer to nameservers the same way:


Primary Name Server
7a. Primary Server Hostname......:
7b. Primary Server Netaddress....:

Secondary Name Server(s)
8a. Secondary Server Hostname....:
8b. Secondary Server Netaddress..:


I don't know where you got the term Authoritative from?

Originally posted by matthewfong
http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/notes.html

If you go the above website and scroll down to "DNS Server Selection" you will see what I have been arguing.


From the site:

Say a cache has a query to transmit to the .com servers. It has a list of addresses of the .com servers. Which server does it contact first?

dnscache simply contacts a random server, to balance the load as effectively as possible. BIND keeps track of the round-trip times for its queries to each server, with various bonuses and penalties, and then sends all its queries to the ``best'' server.



Again, that refers to contacting the root servers, not for contacting authoritative nameservers. Big difference.

Also, please keep in mind that Dan is promoting a competing product, so any information he provides should be taken with a grain of salt.

Out of curiosity, how do you post a quote in context?

If you don't believe Dan, do you believe Mr. DNS? Check out the answer to the first question here.

http://www.acmebw.com/askmrdns/archive.php?category=81&question=6

"The root name servers simply give out the complete list of NS records in referrals. They aren't in any particular order, and the name server that receives the referral, assuming it's a BIND server, chooses from these name servers according to roundtrip time, or RTT (which Mr. DNS has already described elsewhere on http://www.acmebw.com/askmr.htm). "

I realize it is hard to believe me cause I'm still a 'Newbie' but in terms of "Master Records" there IS a difference from the standpoint of a DNS administrator. Traditionally with Bind there is a master and slave server. The master DNS server keeps the 'master' record and the secondary DNS server relies on the master DNS serve to update the secondary DNS server’s records. However from a domain resolution standpoint, there is NO difference between primary and secondary DNS servers.

Matt

Crap. How many posts until we get to page 5? Will this one do it?

Oh, btw...Mr. Cricket Liu (Mr. DNS) is the co-author of DNS and Bind :)

Maybe this will be 5?

I added a signature line...maybe this will help.

I've got to buy this book. EVERYONE refers to it.
ie:
Q: "How do I setup DNS?"
A: "Get DNS & Bind"

Q: "What does Round Robin DNS mean?"
A: "Get "DNS & Bind"

Q: "How do I remove paint from an old picture frame?"
A: "Get DNS & Bind"

Must be a good read.

are you going to keep some staff at your home (NOC) or only you will be doing all the stuff ?

If you are not keeping any person then i have some questions:

1. How will you manage everything your self. If some day you need to go market to buy something and some things mess up when you are not there what you will do then.

2. Do you sleep ?

3. What in case you are having sex with your wife and some body calls for emergency support :D (not joking).

4. many other things ?

good luck for your NOC plans. I gone through your posts you seems to be techi guy. How do you know so much about system admin. Do you have any experience in this field. Forgive me if i written something wrong.

Keep up with your plans. Best wishes.

or for $50/month you could have a dedicated server at acsdatanet.com with 40 gigs of transfer. I have not used them but I am pretty sure I will sign up with them in the next few days. I currently host at iserver.com at $100/month but need something cheaper and more powerful. Anyone heard anything negative about acsdatanet.com?

1. How will you manage everything your self. If some day you need to go market to buy something and some things mess up when you are not there what you will do then.

To be honest, lets look at other colos. What happens when your server screws up and someone needs to reboot it, what is the average total time from when its down to when its back up? As I said before I ran/run free webhosting off a sdsl here, and there has been one occasion that I can remember in the last month where something bad happend and I could not fix it remotely. I still think its not a great idea but can be done with not a lot of problems.

So apparently there is this person AIM nick Skream9 who has decided to harass me. Does anyone know who this is?

He/she (highly doubt it is a she). Mr. Skream9 seams to take my posts personally. I apologize if you took my posts as a direct insult...I was merely making a point.

Sorry if this is off the subject.

Matt

This is a good idea. Now you're correct that the cost of multiple DSL lines is the same as colocation, but 7 megabits of DSL using BGP routing between them sounds like a good concept. You're going to get a ton of bandwidth. BGP will fix any problems that DSL reliability may have. Large APC backups are not hard to get and how often does power really go out (ok, so it does sometimes). I think having 14 megabits of bandwidth to your house for the cost of something like $400 - $500 per month is great. Level 3 charges $300 per megabit of 95% data. AboveNet and Exodus are 3 times that ($1000 per megabit). And 24 hour monitoring at your house is just as good as the service they offer at a data center. The data center will just call you, or if they are good they might reboot your box. You can do auto-rebood devices and you can also have pager alerts.

Originally posted by matthewfong
Has anyone researched the possibility of bringing in a few cheap business class DSL lines in to their house and getting some cheap bandwidth? I think Qwest and a few other National Providers have symetrical 7mbps lines for under the price of a T1.

hi matthewfong

what is the progress ?

Originally posted by matthewfong
So apparently there is this person AIM nick Skream9 who has decided to harass me. Does anyone know who this is?

He/she (highly doubt it is a she). Mr. Skream9 seams to take my posts personally. I apologize if you took my posts as a direct insult...I was merely making a point.

Sorry if this is off the subject.

Matt

This is node9.

Originally posted by qslack
I'll end this post with this remark:
Do not run a hosting company from your home off of a DSL line [/B]

Depends what DSL line you are talking about. HDSL for example is ideal for web hosting. Most leased lines in Ireland are HDSL for example.

Depends what DSL line you are talking about. HDSL for example is ideal for web hosting. Most leased lines in Ireland are HDSL for example.Actually, most T1 circuits use HDSL technology. The problem is that you cannot BGP with DSL and if your DSL line goes down, you will probably not get a quick repair turn around.

Originally posted by Get-Hosted.com


This is node9.


and for your information, I was not "harrassing" anyone. We were debating about this very same topic, and I proved him wrong on something, he didnt' have an answer, so he decided to BLOCK ME instead of replying, then come on here and tell people i'm harrassing him. When he first posted his msg about me "harrassing" him, I did not bother to reply, because it is a waste of time, but now this is being dragged on, so now i am explaining myself.

-node

1. How will you manage everything your self. If some day you need to go market to buy something and some things mess up when you are not there what you will do then.

I'm sure his wife can go shopping while not busy (see below)

2. Do you sleep ?

If anyone knows someone that doesn't needs sleep ...need one of those for 24/7 support.

3. What in case you are having sex with your wife and some body calls for emergency support :D (not joking).

Stupid things happen :D

I would not go with dsl lines. Even if you have a good provider when they go down they are down for awile. I think I read somewhere that 12 hours in the average downtime dsl providers have for each incident.

But if it is just a fun site and isnt really business related go for it.