I'm sure all of you remember this thread - http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14747

Well, today, I got a cease and desist letter from his lawyer.

Rather than discuss the problem reasonably and face up to the questionable appearance of the comments, Mr. Herman chooses to send a cease and desist letter to scare people from honestly sharing their experiences at WebHostingTalk.

The letter states that I have been "making disparaging, malicious and defamatory statements".:rolleyes: In other words, I've been stating the bitter truth which they don't like.
And that I have been posting these statements "across many message boards on the Web."
Whereas in reality, I have only posted about iCS here on WHT (1 message board on the web ;)) and I only told the truth.

Also, the letter shows his intent of sueing me if I dont stop

Well ,

If you really want to play this game, contact a good lawyer.

They will find it interesting that the entered into a binding contract with a minor, which in many ways is illegal.

In regards to the slander issue, slander is a tough issue to proove, and even though there are these posts here, i think overall if you are a client with a case you could probably sue them for breach of contract and god knows how many other things.

Overall i know my law firm charges 150$ per hour. It would not be financially smart to sue you, and two there isnt anything to gain. If he did his due dilagence correctly, you would either never have been a client, or had co signor.

In regards to the defination or slander, you technically were a client of his. It is not illegal for a former customer to slander a company per a bad expierence, it happens all the time. Slander comes into affect when you have had no business relationship at all, and your mostly talking out of your as*.

Hopefully that helps, i wouldnt worry to much, there isnt much to gain if you went to court, and personally would cost him alot more then you...

First off, slander refers to spoken words, not written text. Any lawyer would have known this.

Secondly, in order to win a libel lawsuit, he would have to prove that you "maliciously" and "substantially" damaged his reputation. Like you said, you only stated the truth.

I have spoke with my lawyer about this a few times, and actually slander does count if its written.

Slander:
Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
A false and malicious statement or report about someone

Slander:
words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another 2: the act of defaming [syn: aspersion, calumny, defamation] v : charge falsely or with malicious intent; attack the good name and reputation of someone

Regardless of Oral or Written, slander is slander, written just proves evidence...

Joe

Well...if you're in these types of circumstances, it's generally not good to discuss it in a public forum. :eek:

I wouldn't worry, but it'd be best not to discuss much here.

I was just going to say the same thing...

Usually legal matters are to be kept private. :confused:

You may want to get your money back from 1-800-lawyers. ;)

Slander is spoken, just like your dictionary states. Libel is written. The reason I posted this to start with is so someone does not mis-inform.

In either case, the truth is all that matters for igor@af.

Im sorry to let you know, but we use one of the top lawfirms in chicago. They are one of the best, so maybe you need to contact your lawyer..

Slander can be interpretended in more then just a oral way.

Slander is any malacious attack against someone whether written or oral.

Slander = Slander

Thanks though for the comment

Try resolving things without lawyers if you can ...we hate getting those 4-number bills every month :rolleyes:

I didn't note the original poster ever saying that the word "slander" was mentioned, only something that's related in the description. Nonetheless, as far as I've ever known or been told, by legal experts, there is a difference between slander and libel, and that is specifically (or more closely related to) how it's conveyed. Being written or Oral.

Oral is slander, and written is libel. That is the essence of those descriptions, with them basically being the same thing, other then the fact that one is verbal and the other is written. Therefore, I'm not sure how that could be argued to mean the same thing, anymore than art with a musical instrument and art with a paint brush can be called the same thing. They are both art and expressive, but they are certainly different... just as is speaking and writing. You can write or speak the same thing, have the same results or whatever, but they are clearly not the same.


Slander:

Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation

slan·dered, slan·der·ing, slan·ders: To utter a slander about.

To utter or spread slander

A false tale or report maliciously uttered, tending to injure the reputation of another; the malicious utterance of defamatory reports; the dissemination of malicious tales or suggestions to the injury of another.

Whether we speak evil of a man to his face or behind his back; the former way, indeed, seems to be the most generous, but yet is a great fault, and that which we call ``reviling;'' the latter is more mean and base, and that which we properly call ``slander'', or ``Backbiting.'' --Tillotson.

To defame; to injure by maliciously uttering a false report; to tarnish or impair the reputation of by false tales maliciously told or propagated; to calumniate.


"foul-spoken, foul-tongued, foul-mouthed; slanderous" can be related to defamation, detraction, but is seemingly well separated from the term libelous.

Then you have Libel li·bel:

A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.
The act of presenting such material to the public.

The written claims presented by a plaintiff in an action at admiralty law or to an ecclesiastical court.

li·beled, or li·belled li·bel·ing, or li·bel·ling li·bels or li·bels: To publish a libel about (a person).

To defame, or expose to public hatred, contempt, or ridicule, by a writing, picture, sign, etc.; to lampoon.

libel \Li"bel\ (l[imac]"b[e^]l), n. [L. libellus a little book, pamphlet, libel, lampoon, dim. of liber the liber or inner bark of a tree; also (because the ancients wrote on this bark), paper, parchment, or a roll of any material used to write upon, and hence, a book or treatise: cf. F. libelle.] 1. A brief writing of any kind, esp. a declaration, bill, certificate, request, supplication, etc. [Obs.] --Chaucer.

Any defamatory writing; a lampoon; a satire.

(Law) A malicious publication expressed either in print or in writing, or by pictures, effigies, or other signs, tending to expose another to public hatred, contempt, or ridicule. Such publication is indictable at common law.

Note: The term, in a more extended sense, includes the publication of such writings, pictures, and the like, as are of a blasphemous, treasonable, seditious, or obscene character. These also are indictable at common law.

(Law) The crime of issuing a malicious defamatory publication.

(Civil Law & Courts of Admiralty) A written declaration or statement by the plaintiff of his cause of action, and of the relief he seeks.

libel \Li"bel\ (l[imac]"b[e^]l), v. i. To spread defamation, written or printed; -- with against. [Obs.]

libel n : a tort consisting of false and malicious publication printed for the purpose of defaming a living person v : make slanderous statements against; "The paper was accused of libeling him".

Therefore, whilst they are the same act, same meaning as per the act, it's the act of WRITING that defines the difference. While you can make slanderous statments in writing to deem it as libelous, they are clearly two different actions and meanings as per the act and what they are. We all know what people mean, but any respectable lawyer wouldn't risk claiming they are the same thing. I hope that clears it up.

Welcome Back Tim, I missed your doctorates...

Heh, see what happens when I get bored? Oh well, back to work. Hope all is well. :-)

What a fruitloop this iComputerServices fellow is! That's just pathetic. He did more damage to himself in that thread than Igor did. I mean, we're talking about suing a 15/16 year old over a message board thread. That's pretty childish.

Thanks for the heads up. I'm filing this company away with ***** and Tacid.

BTW Igor: ... you run a site about cars? How long have you been driving? :) It's very nice. I can see why he'd want to advertise there.

A "cease and desist letter" is well known scare tactic, these letters can be drawn out for as little £25 by solicitors (=lawyers in the US) in the UK. They are pretty much based on a standard template. They usually work when someone copies your site etc. From your point of view I wouldn't worry, just fill the letter away for safe keeping and get on with life. The cost to even begin to persue such a case on their behalf will be very expensive, basically wait until you get something more than a cease and desist letter. Meanwhile don't acknowledge anything, or make any communication with Darren.

Thank you all for the help, advice, and for the many off topic posts we've got here:rolleyes:

I am not worried at all, because I know what he is trying to do, and how lame it all is.

The main reason I posted this is to show what kind of people some hosts are.

Thank you all for the reassurance :)

p.s. I remember someone on here asked how old AF is... it's 7 months old :D

I'm an attorney, for real. There is a pretty well known mnemonic phrase that "slander is spoken." Either one, written or spoken, can cause liability although it's obviously easier to prove libel.

Second, there is also a pretty well known catchphrase that "truth is an absolute defense." It might be a defense against defamation suits but there still may be liability such as if you breach a confidentiality agreement. But I don't think that is the case here.

If anyone could sue for disparaging or defamatory remarks that were true, then the press would never be able to operate. No one could speak ill of another person.

It would seem that we are all professionals and that most have spoken reasonably about their differences here. Sending the letter while hiding behind the attorney is probably a mechanism designed to scare off those members of the general public who don't know any better. You wouldn't believe how many friends of mine have called me about stupid cease and desist trademark infringement letters which were designed to scare people away from using valid marks under the law that might negatively impact the complainant's business. Oh well....

Originally posted by slinky
I'm an attorney, for real. There is a pretty well known mnemonic phrase that "slander is spoken."

Second, there is also a pretty well known catchphrase that "truth is an absolute defense." It might be a defense against defamation suits but there still may be liability such as if you breach a confidentiality agreement. But I don't think that is the case here.

If anyone could sue for disparaging or defamatory remarks that were true, then the press would never be able to operate. No one could speak ill of another person.

It would seem that we are all professionals and that most have spoken reasonably about their differences here. Sending the letter while hiding behind the attorney is probably a mechanism designed to scare off those members of the general public who don't know any better. You wouldn't believe how many friends of mine have called me about stupid cease and desist trademark infringement letters which were designed to scare people away from using valid marks under the law that might negatively impact the complainant's business. Oh well....

I recall in another thread dherman offering igor@af an opportunity to discuss igor's views via a collect phone call:rolleyes:

Was the call ever made??

Haha :D

Obviously not :stickout

Whats the point of us talking?

There is nothing to resolve.....

igor@af:
Haha

Obviously not

Whats the point of us talking?

There is nothing to resolve.....

Although he did offer to talk about the issue to you and take it off of the forum to discuss privately.

refusing to talk to the owner of the business possibly aggrivated him and would therefore allow him to perform significantly better if a court situation arose, since he would have the evidence from this board that you did not phone him to discuss the situation and that he did indeed offer to collect call to talk to you about the situation. although the fact that you are not of legal age would not help him in any way!

Originally posted by xtstrike
igor@af:Although he did offer to talk about the issue to you and take it off of the forum to discuss privately.

refusing to talk to the owner of the business possibly aggrivated him and would therefore allow him to perform significantly better if a court situation arose, since he would have the evidence from this board that you did not phone him to discuss the situation and that he did indeed offer to collect call to talk to you about the situation. although the fact that you are not of legal age would not help him in any way! I understood it to mean that they had a dispute and attempts to resolve it went nowhere. So, the allegedly injured party decide to throw it out to the good folks here and, I have to say, especially with the "unbiased" reviews that were raised, has been entertaining.

How am I flaming?

The reason I decided to post my tale was to support the fake reviews I found by accident.

There are NO DIFFERENCES to resolve, after he THREATENED to SUE me when I tried to leave the pitiful hosting, which he assured me would be great before I got into the mess.

I am coming here in hope that no one else would have to go thruough what I did, and learn from others' mistakes [mine].

Originally posted by igor@af
How am I flaming?

The reason I decided to post my tale was to support the fake reviews I found by accident.

There are NO DIFFERENCES to resolve, after he THREATENED to SUE me when I tried to leave the pitiful hosting, which he assured me would be great before I got into the mess.

I am coming here in hope that no one else would have to go thruough what I did, and learn from others' mistakes [mine].

I believe you were told in the other thread that your story had run it's course as nothing more usefull could be gained by either party. And, therefore, the tread was closed. Now you come here again making the same type of accusations.

I don't think igor@af is trying to flame. I've the read the majority of his posts and he seems level headed on the whole, it is understandable that people get annoyed after going through a bad experience.

Regarding the phone call, personally I wouldn't accept it, you can't control the past; you can only create the future, igor@af has posted what happened, what would be the point, some poeple like myself are sometimes easily sweet talked.

Igor@af is letting people know what's going on and seeking advice on how to handle the situation, can we be a little more civil here. :cool:

Well, Darren keeps on throwing in more items to discuss... like the cease and desist letter that i received yesterday :)

I think it will help if you go an re-read the first post in this thread.

Originally posted by igor@af
Well, Darren keeps on throwing in more items to discuss... like the cease and desist letter that i received yesterday :)

I think it will help if you go an re-read the first post in this thread.

Personnally, I'm not about to go back and re-read the first post in this thread. As it is quite apparent to me that you had a disagreement with someone and the only way you can "get back at them" is to publicly whine.

This forum is too full of whining. If you had something constructive to contribute, I would listen. But I have read this thread and the other thread, and have come to the conclusion. . . . . . . .

originally by Chicken in http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14747&perpage=20&pagenumber=3
Ok Igor, you'll have to ask Darren that via email or PM. Questions have been asked, they've been answered, and now everyone will have to draw their own conclusions


I don't agree with you MattF
originally posted by MattF...
I don't think igor@af is trying to flame

Igor is admittedly not looking for resolution.

All I can hope for is that dherman has the fortitude and insight to not address this here. . . . .

As for me ? ? ? . . . .

<unsubscribes from thread>

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
First off, slander refers to spoken words, not written text. Any lawyer would have known this.

Secondly, in order to win a libel lawsuit, he would have to prove that you "maliciously" and "substantially" damaged his reputation. Like you said, you only stated the truth.

You have no idea what the "truth" is so I say
don't talk about what you know nothing about...

I told this kid I would edit my post about his crappy job
on the ICQ edited picture.. and other stuff..
(but he was supposed to shut up about it all)
Well here the lil kid goes off again...
Just because one punk lil kid is not happy with a host
does not make them a bad host....

"Darren" has been hosting me for some time now..
And has always provided a great service..great support..
(Fast speeds/No downtime).......

So stop all of the childish speculation crap and get back
to reality....
No company can make "every" Customer happy deal with it...
I do not see any other customer of Darren's here....
(yea i know Mr. "autoroar" you say there are more upset)
well I would love to see them post it here)
Until alot post.. Stop flaming a good company!


Hope this post gets closed like the rest..
Its stupid to keep this talk going about the same ole thing...
(same crap new post)

Kind Regards,

Can we get some info on this last post.

Lets see if they have any connection to this company.

Originally posted by AnIdiot
Igor is admittedly not looking for resolution.

He's no longer hosting with Darren. There's not much to resolve. The experience already happened, he just shared what happened in his point of view. Darren can't change what happened, just Igor's (and our) perception of it.

Hope this post gets closed like the rest..
Its stupid to keep this talk going about the same ole thing...
(same crap new post)

The only crap I see is what you just added. Forums are for open discussion. Hey HelperAnt, you want to close the thread? Here is how.... Don't open it to read it. Thread closed.

Truth?? I gathered enough facts from the first thread about this to agree there was truth in what happened.

PS- What site do you host with them?

Now helper ant.. why are you flaming me:confused:

and you say that the ICQ image is edited?
Really? How do you know that?

I haven't lied about a single thing through out this on WHT ... everything I said is the truth, the truth that you may not want to believe, but that really doesn't bother me :)

At least I am not acting idiotic, disrespecting, and flaming people about something I have no clue about.

Ok, let's not repeat the entire last thread again. Some of this we already went through. Is there anything new with this? The letter, and that's it, otherwise what else? Nothing is going to be solved in the thread, that's a given. But new news only if possible.

notice how darren ignores this whole thread..

Originally posted by Helper Ant
You have no idea what the "truth" is so I say
don't talk about what you know nothing about...

I told this kid I would edit my post about his crappy job
on the ICQ edited picture.. and other stuff..
(but he was supposed to shut up about it all)
Well here the lil kid goes off again...
Just because one punk lil kid is not happy with a host
does not make them a bad host....

"Darren" has been hosting me for some time now..
And has always provided a great service..great support..
(Fast speeds/No downtime).......

So stop all of the childish speculation crap and get back
to reality....
No company can make "every" Customer happy deal with it...
I do not see any other customer of Darren's here....
(yea i know Mr. "autoroar" you say there are more upset)
well I would love to see them post it here)
Until alot post.. Stop flaming a good company!

Hope this post gets closed like the rest..
Its stupid to keep this talk going about the same ole thing...
(same crap new post)

Kind Regards,
If Darran hosts you why do you completely different nameservers? But my god, I really don't like to flame but this is driving me crazy. He doesn't know the truth? He had a horrible experiance and he got a made up threatening letter and you say he doesn't know what the truth is. So, if it is one Big Adult that didn't have a good experiance, would that make it bad? Come one, your post is full of prejudice and crap. If you don't want to hear about it, don't read it and don't waste your crap on this. Okay?

Just b/c a company can't make everyone happy doesn't prevent someone from sharing their experiances. Come on, get a life and learn to respect others and their ideas no matter their age.

Also, on another issue, it doesn't really matter whether slander is written or not to me at least. They are both usually bogus scare attampts.

Well I did talk to Darren once for him...he is not a bad guy for what he had me do...All I can say about that...

Dude...I would leave it alone...because you are playing with a snake...and you are only getting older by the second...

you have said your piece people will not forget this post...I am glad I found out about your problem...

I don't know for sure what went on but we still haven't heard anything from the other half of this dispute at all and that is completely in direct contrast to the professional, mature approach of resolving problems that I have seen consistently fostered here. If dherman doesn't want to state anything here, perhaps he should have left this alone. Sending a cease and desist letter to someone here is serious and sends a bit of a chilling effect on posting here.

To Helper Ant, your comment is not constructive and I wonder about your bias and connection to this company. Simply because you haven't had problems doesn't mean that you should belittle someone else's serious problems and imply they don't exist. You also called igor a "punk lil kid" and then told him to stop flaming a good company.... what site do you host with them and who are all the other customers you know about here?