That's the question!

Does anyone know of the legal aspects of a hosting company changing their TOS?

Should the consumer have the option of being refunded, if not in full, at least from the point of change, if a host decides that the original terms of service do not reflect the current best interests of his company?

As for the moral issue; it's really a mute point. Most companies are totally lacking in that department. It doesn't take much to figure out that if a person signed up for, let's say, 150mb of disk space and then the host changes TOS so that the specific plan now includes 35mb of space; and binds the customer to the new TOS, well YES it's immoral:(

Well, most TOS contain that famous TOS line, "This agreement may be modified at any time without prior notice..", and that by paying another month, and not canceling your accout, you automatically agree to the terms.

It would be difficult, if not impossible, to write and have a TOS that you never changed, and never could change. I'm not sure whether a change in the package offered (150MB>35MB) really would fall under a TOS change, but I know what you meant.

The host doesn't have to follow its own TOS, or can selectively choose to enforce parts if it wants to. This, and the other famous TOS line, "We reserve the right to terminate any account for any reason..." protect the host from just about anything, just in case (but not lawsuits, etc.)

Originally posted by Chicken
Well, most TOS contain that famous TOS line, "This agreement may be modified at any time without prior notice..", and that by paying another month, and not canceling your accout, you automatically agree to the terms.

Chicken is right
if that line is in there
you're screwed... :(

Originally posted by Chicken
Well, most TOS contain that famous TOS line, "This agreement may be modified at any time without prior notice..", and that by paying another month, and not canceling your accout, you automatically agree to the terms.

That line, or something similar is in every tos I've ever read. Although I haven't been reading long.

For arguments sake; this company is in the u.s.

In this particular case it appears the host made great offers to attract new customers. Once he had a thousand or so, he changes tos.

Highly:mad: business practices:angry:

Originally posted by Eagle


Chicken is right
if that line is in there
you're screwed... :(

Heh, well I wouldn't go that far exactly, but I do wonder the legal implications about clients agreeing to a certain TOS and paying for a year's worth of hosting, then the host modifying the TOS mid year and enforcing it. I suppose a similar thing would happen in that the customer should be able to request cancellation of their account based upon the changed, and receive a refund (for time remaining).

Originally posted by Chicken
Heh, well I wouldn't go that far exactly, but I do wonder the legal implications about clients agreeing to a certain TOS and paying for a year's worth of hosting, then the host modifying the TOS mid year and enforcing it. I suppose a similar thing would happen in that the customer should be able to request cancellation of their account based upon the changed, and receive a refund (for time remaining).

That's what I'm saying. The new TOS is not what was agreed upon when the year of hosting was paid. If it were a month to month thing, then sure, nothing to do but agree to the new terms or move.
But to pay for a year; only to have the original TOS changed after a month . . . .:angry:

Some changes could very well be illegal, depending on the specific terms. For instance, those hosts that advertise "pay once for a lifetime of hosting" changing to charging a montly, or even yearly, fee. Such a change could constitute fraud. Under the circumstances, a full refund would be due anyone who signed up under the original terms.

I can understand why some hosts would need to change their TOS. Many are poorly written to begin with and should be changed. Some of those changes will be better defining some items. Other changes might be changing ther terms of things like data transfer allocation, disk space allotment, and other services. The fair and ethical thing to do with such changes would be to e-mail all clients notifying them of the changes and give them at least 30 days (more if the present TOS calls for it) before the new TOS would take effect.

I had a such an experience with oc12host. They had an introductory offer for which you could only pay for 1 year up front. Then in the middle of the term they decided to scrap the plan and upgrade to their next plan which cost nearly twice as much. I have no problem with that in itself, but what I object to is that they did not give me an option to cancel the account with a refund for the remaining time. Instead I was essentially forced to stay with them until the money ran out at the new higher price. I don't know what the law is over there, but in the UK that would certainly have been illegal and I could have taken them to court under the consumer protection regulations.

By "over there", presumably you mean the U.S. It is illegal here as well. You can't unilaterally change the terms of a contract. Contacting the state attorney general's office might help, especially if there have been other complaints filed against the same host (a good reason for everyone to file on unethical and illegal hosts), a letter from an attorney may do the trick, and there is always filing in court. Of course, the amount own should be enough to warrant it unless someone want to fight on principle regardless of the amount.

Originally posted by Duster
By "over there", presumably you mean the U.S. It is illegal here as well. You can't unilaterally change the terms of a contract. Contacting the state attorney general's office might help, especially if there have been other complaints filed against the same host (a good reason for everyone to file on unethical and illegal hosts), a letter from an attorney may do the trick, and there is always filing in court. Of course, the amount own should be enough to warrant it unless someone want to fight on principle regardless of the amount.

Not being familiar with the local laws, I just couldn't be bothered with the hassle so I did the next best thing and went to another host. In the UK, the amount needn't be an issue if you take it to a Small Claims Court which handles claims for amounts up to a couple of thousand pounds and the cost is fairly small (about £10 if I remember from the last time I used it).

You say that they can't unilaterally change the terms, but that's exactly what they all claim they can do in their terms and conditions. Surely they can't be ignoring the law!

As the owner of a host, i am on the other side of the fence. As a host you need to give yourself some breathing room when it comes to changing things about your company. eg say the host doesnt ban adult content but then later on to improve its image, it decides to ban it. You need to be able to do that without causing major problems.

An actual example would be my host, earlier in the year we changed our packages prices, it was an increase. Now we didnt inforce these changes on current customers but that line means that we could have. It has its bad and good points but one of them is that the host has got all the legal bases covered and there isnt really anything the consumer can do about it.

I suppose it is a grey area and this argument will continue for a long time.

Originally posted by dev


Not being familiar with the local laws, I just couldn't be bothered with the hassle so I did the next best thing and went to another host. In the UK, the amount needn't be an issue if you take it to a Small Claims Court which handles claims for amounts up to a couple of thousand pounds and the cost is fairly small (about £10 if I remember from the last time I used it).

You say that they can't unilaterally change the terms, but that's exactly what they all claim they can do in their terms and conditions. Surely they can't be ignoring the law!

I think we need some actual legal input about now. It seems we are nearly agreed that they shouldn't be allowed to unilaterally change the terms of the original TOS the consumer agreed to. But, it doesn't seem to go against their TOS which states they can change it whenever they choose. . . . . . .Help I'm so :confused:

Originally posted by Londo
As the owner of a host, i am on the other side of the fence. As a host you need to give yourself some breathing room when it comes to changing things about your company. eg say the host doesnt ban adult content but then later on to improve its image, it decides to ban it. You need to be able to do that without causing major problems.

An actual example would be my host, earlier in the year we changed our packages prices, it was an increase. Now we didnt inforce these changes on current customers but that line means that we could have. It has its bad and good points but one of them is that the host has got all the legal bases covered and there isnt really anything the consumer can do about it.

I suppose it is a grey area and this argument will continue for a long time.

I don't have a problem with anything you say here. But, say, you have accepted payment for one year to provide a service for that period, then what does the law say about you changing the terms during the duration of this contract. Are you allowed to increase the price in that period? Are you required to give the customer an option to terminate their account if they found the new conditions unacceptable AND refund their money? Common sense would dictate that it would be "no" to the first and "yes" to the second. It was the opposite with oc12host on both counts.

Originally posted by dev

Common sense would dictate that .........

Yes. . . .common sense. . . .too many hosts don't rely on this :rolleyes:

It seems they rely mainly on new customers, as opposed to repeat buyers. . . . :eek:

Suppose that may offend a few members here.

But it's just my thoughts :D

Originally posted by dev
You say that they can't unilaterally change the terms, but that's exactly what they all claim they can do in their terms and conditions. Surely they can't be ignoring the law!
You're confusing the terms they state with what is legal. The fact is that many contracts have clauses that will not stand up in court. They can put in writing anything they want. That doesn't make it legal.

I'll give you one example I've seen on a number of host contracts. In the U.S., with some exceptions, one must have attained the age of 18 to enter into a contract. Some hosts have clauses wherein they state that if the applicant (customer) is a minor, they have the permission of their guardian or parent to sign on the guardian's behalf.

Honest, that's what it says! That clause would never hold up in court. It totally reverses statutory law. I'd question the whole contract for any host (or any other business) that had such flawed and invalid clauses. Of course, the bright side is that if those clauses were reviewed and approved by their attorney, the attorney is such a hack that you needn't be concerned if you are capable or have an attorney who is.

(In a previous line of work, I used to handle the attorney letters directed to the department I worked in. It was fun "shooting them down". If you had seen the ridiculous claims and letters I have, your opnion of attorneys might drop even further. Some are amazingly stupid.)

The reasons so many contracts have certain clauses includes they hope you will believe they are valid (thus abrogating your rights by ignorance), control your behavior (not to mention your money), and limit your choices.

Most people won't bother to do anything about their rights being trampled on so such contracts often achieve the desired result. However, for those of us who know our rights and how to assert them, the other party gerts a rude awakening when they try the same thing.

For years, I've made it a practice not to agree to terms even if I know they would not stand up in court or would not be needed. This includes clauses I thought were unfair. I've had employment contracts where certain clauses were stricken for both reasons, some were unfair to me (even if the issue around them would never materialize) and some would not hold up.

I'd advise others to consider similar negotiations.

"Speak softly and carry a big stick." Theodore Roosevelt

Originally posted by Duster

The reasons so many contracts have certain clauses includes they hope you will believe they are valid (thus abrogating your rights by ignorance), control your behavior (not to mention your money), and limit your choices.

Most people won't bother to do anything about their rights being trampled on so such contracts often achieve the desired result. However, for those of us who know our rights and how to assert them, the other party gerts a rude awakening when they try the same thing.


The sad part is that it does work the way you describe it. Very few people have the means or the inclination to take them on. I regularly see the phrases (or their equivalents) "We can terminate your account for any reason" or " We cannot give any refunds". I cannot believe any law would allow this.

Are there any legal beagles reading this thread? Some input would be nice.

Originally posted by dev
I don't have a problem with anything you say here. But, say, you have accepted payment for one year to provide a service for that period, then what does the law say about you changing the terms during the duration of this contract.

1. Are you allowed to increase the price in that period? 2. Are you required to give the customer an option to terminate their account if they found the new conditions unacceptable AND refund their money?

Common sense would dictate that it would be "no" to the first and "yes" to the second. It was the opposite with oc12host on both counts.

Not just common sense, the law as well.

The laws of most states in the U.S. are based on English common laws (Louisiana's are based on the Napoleonic codes). The result would likely be the same in all 50. With no clause specifically referencing possible increases (such as for increased costs), the price could not be raised without refunding the remaining term.

Remember that judges have discretionary powers. Some might hold that the price cannot be increased during the remainder of the contract term, especially if it poses no hardship to the host. The amounts invoilved in hosting are low enough that hardship would not be good reason. There are many ancilliary issues surrounding this issue However, the reality and competitiveness of hosting effectively render them irrelevant.

There's an issue regarding value received that would nullify the claim for a full refund (in most cases anyway) wherein the price is raised during the term of a contract.

That means that say on a 12 month contract that is halfway through its term, if a host raised the price, the customer would not be entitled to a refund for 12 months service if that service was everything contracted for. If it wasn't the judge could increase the amount of the refund beyond the remaining 6 months (even substantially so for reasons such as fraud, malfeasance, etc.)

However, all that is meaningless without knowing your rights or learning about them, and being willing to do something about asserting them.

With knowledge and the willingness to act on it, you can protect your rights and/or punish those companies who seek to abuse you. I've done it to a few corporations in my lifetime who made the mistake of taking my gentle demeanor and soft spoken manor for weaknessI. Some were stupid because I warned them and they still persisted. They are paying for it to this day, may years later.

I say this so others know that you can make a difference and don't have to take abuse.

We can sit here all day and debate this but the cold truth is that everything we say here today will not change anything or have a noticeable impact on the web hosting industry or other companies that use similar t and c.

Something that bothers me is that you are being very stereotypical of Internet companies but the above applies here also so anyway.

I also think you will find that these days internet laws and judgements on them are a grey area. Also if somebody in the UK wanted to take action against a US firm, wouldn't the 4-6 thousand miles between the two hamper this, as i said a grey area.

Hi,
After asking a lawyer, this is his answer:

he said that if the customer signed up for a year at price A, that no time within that 12 months could the host make him pay more. The exception would be if the customer opted to change his hosting plan in any way, then the larger or smaller hosting plan at the current time would prevale through his term.

So, if a host raises his prices, you should not pay a cent more until your initial term is over. If only month by month, then that would be the next billing cycle, but if it were durring your 12 month payed term, it could not start until the end of your hosting term.

This is the answer I expected, and he says that the hosting price, or plan is completely seperate from the terms of service agreement. And that most any court would see it that way as well. The customer would win if they fought it.

Tim L :cool:

Originally posted by superiorhost
Hi,
After asking a lawyer, this is his answer:

he said that if the customer signed up for a year at price A, that no time within that 12 months could the host make him pay more. The exception would be if the customer opted to change his hosting plan in any way, then the larger or smaller hosting plan at the current time would prevale through his term.

So, if a host raises his prices, you should not pay a cent more until your initial term is over. If only month by month, then that would be the next billing cycle, but if it were durring your 12 month payed term, it could not start until the end of your hosting term.

This is the answer I expected, and he says that the hosting price, or plan is completely seperate from the terms of service agreement. And that most any court would see it that way as well. The customer would win if they fought it.

Tim L :cool:

What about the other side of the discussion whereby the host drastically reduces services?? In effect the services that were purchased are no longer given under the "new plan" TOS although available at increased rate.

A contract is a contract. Neither side is allowed to change the terms during the contract period. The whole purpose of a contract is to specify what is expected and what will be provided on both sides.

Originally posted by superiorhost
Hi,
After asking a lawyer, this is his answer:

he said that if the customer signed up for a year at price A, that no time within that 12 months could the host make him pay more. The exception would be if the customer opted to change his hosting plan in any way, then the larger or smaller hosting plan at the current time would prevale through his term.


Are you reading this, oc12host?

Okay, so how do we address the host on this?
Sure we could argue the chargeback with our credit card company. But, in a majority of the cases I would imagine that the hiring of attorney, filing court fees, and such are not going to be economically feasible.

Or do we simply need more government regulations to keep people honest??

Oooo governments :mad:

Originally posted by AnIdiot
Okay, so how do we address the host on this?
Sure we could argue the chargeback with our credit card company. But, in a majority of the cases I would imagine that the hiring of attorney, filing court fees, and such are not going to be economically feasible.

Or do we simply need more government regulations to keep people honest??

Oooo governments :mad:

Don't underestimate the power of Credit Card companies. Threat of a chargeback can often produce faster results than 50 emails. I am not sure if this is true in the US, but UK credit cards also carry a guarantee that if the goods/services you purchased are not up to the expected standard then you can get your money back.

well I think everyone knows that the host we are talking about is dellz.com. they offered unlimited webspace for 30 bucks or less depending on when you joined, and then after they had enough money to buy their own servers, desided that we could only have a max of 50 mb, then they acted like they were doing us a favore by doing this. there are however other options to fileing a civil suit with a lawyer, charges were filed today to begin a criminal case. No we probably will not get our money back, but its a good bet that dellz will no longer be able provide web hosting. Thay also may end up in jail. If you are or were a dellz costomer go to
https://www.ifccfbi.gov and tell them your story.

This is all very simple. If you are not comfortable with a company or contract or some terms of service and any conditions, stipulations, loopholes, etc. that come along with it, you can still protect yourself and provided that host honestly intends to provide you with the services outlined in their plans, you can easily draw up a clear and precise contract to have them agree to. Provided they are honest about it, they will tell you any reasons why some terms might change in the future and shouldn't have any issues with stating such in writing.

You simply outline the plans and current terms of service and any sort of stipulations yourself. Such as, that the host agrees to not raise or change or otherwise modify the your plan or the services you were promised and paid for, unless they are agreed to by you and an improvement and you're approved the change. They agree to not raise any prices for the duration of your contract. They agree that any changes will not affect you, etc. It's pretty easy to outline and it's not a big deal. Surely, some things must be modified with some hosts, due to modified conditions of their upstream provider. Some upstream provider's have disallowed adult material on their networks, which can affect a hosted client. The host has no choice.

However, such things as that, can also be outlined. That's to say, as long as you are following the current policies and aren't violating any terms from the exact terms and conditions outlined at the time of your signing up, it will not affect you, or if it does, this was not intentional and you had no control, nor did the host and you are therefore entitled, as agreed upon in your contract with them, to a refund for the portion of your hosting with them that is left unused, with a reasonable amount of warning and time frame, so you can have the time and money to move to another provider. That's but one of many examples.

A new condition added, with or without notice that somehow affects your hosting, service and if you are suddenly in violation of some new condition, you can only get a warning with ample time and a refund of the unused duration of your planned and paid for hosting, to seek out and move to another provider. Unless someone has some good reason not to agree to this with a client, or has something to hide or try and pull at a latter date, I'd not see any provider having a problem with agreeing to a contract that simply protects said client in case of some modification by the provider, be it by their choice or not. From there, it's irrelevant why, and they should have no issues or qualms with stating such in writing.

That, should solve any problems, lessen your worry, etc... even if the host still could be crooked and not live up to either contract or terms of service -- but you are at least protecting that aspect of your interests, as per your original posting. Nonetheless, it still might or might not help, since either a host is up to no good with ill intended plans or not, so a contract to protect yourself might or might not be worth the effort, as much as you might be better off seeking another provider.

Tim, that's very good. How much do you charge to _help_ with a TOS/AUP?

Okay, so how do we address the host on this?
Sure we could argue the chargeback with our credit card company. But, in a majority of the cases I would imagine that the hiring of attorney, filing court fees, and such are not going to be economically feasible.

First, contact your bank. Your bank is usually on *YOUR* side, and will give your complaint a fair hearing as long as you can *document* the validity of your complaint.

Second, file complaints with the BBB, Attorney General, and FTC if the host has offices in the US. It is VERY IMPORTANT that customers NOT just roll over when they get ripped off by a host!! One complaint will do little, but a large number of unresolved complaints lead to an "Unsatisfactory" rating with the BBB. They pass on such information to local law enforcement. The state AG's office will also investigate a large number of complaints, as will the FTC. Usually this has to involve more money than the average hosting company charges, but as complaints mount law enforcement will take notice. See the last link in my signature for contact information for these agencies, and for some information about a host that was closed down by the law enforcement.

Complaining here *may* warn a handful of people away from a host. If you want to make a REAL difference, file your complaints where it really matters.

original post by Ihoppoet

well I think everyone knows that the host we are talking about is.....

I, for one, would like to refrain from mentioning any individual company or corporation. I suggest that if you have a problem with a specific host that you first propose to them your concerns. Then if you're unsatisfied, follow some of the great suggestions listed in this thread.

I don't have a problem with one host in particular. I have a problem with hosts as a whole [*ducks from the flying debris*]
In any consumer action I have had on the web, my only unsatisfactory ones have been in the field of webhosting. I'm not a host, so I can only speak from the customer's point of view. Maybe I've been lucky or unlucky (depending on which thing I'm talking about), but anytime I have had a problem with an online merchant, it has always been resolved to satisfaction. Except when the online merchant was a host.
So I started this thread looking for answers on how to deal with hosts as a whole. If I look around, I seem to be surrounded by them!

Does anyone feel that the hosting industry needs to be regulated?
If not by a government, maybe by some centralized data system?

Just my thoughts. . . . . Thanks for listening!

Don't kid yourselves that government regulation would accomplish anything worthwhile. THere are thousands of hosting companies, far too many to be monitored. Laws already exist that can be used successfully against hosts. Piling even more regulations on top of them will not help. People taking action with existing laws and resources will.

All regulations would do is create a bureaucracy (or add to the existing one), add to the expense of hosting (there would bound to be some kind of licensing fee), which would get passed on to the consumer.

Check other industries if you want proof.

Government regulations do not protect people against bad meat in supermarkets, being cheated or anything else. They only serve to punish those who get caught and there are laws enough on the books to do that.

"Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it." George Santanaya

Any government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have.

Originally posted by AnIdiot

I, for one, would like to refrain from mentioning any individual company or corporation. I suggest that if you have a problem with a specific host that you first propose to them your concerns.

I disagree, individual companies that ARE breaking the law or engaging in sharp practices should be named so that others can make an informed choice.

Originally posted by dev


I disagree, individual companies that ARE breaking the law or engaging in sharp practices should be named so that others can make an informed choice.

At least we can agree to disagree.
I agree with you that businesses engaging in deceptive and ilegal tactics need to be exposed.
All I'm suggesting is; do that in a different thread dedicated to such. I doubt anyone looking for advice on a particular host is going to read this thread.
My previous suggestion was made in an effort to keep this thread on topic and not get it jumping all over the place with name specific complaints.

Originally posted by AnIdiot


At least we can agree to disagree.
I agree with you that businesses engaging in deceptive and ilegal tactics need to be exposed.
All I'm suggesting is; do that in a different thread dedicated to such. I doubt anyone looking for advice on a particular host is going to read this thread.
My previous suggestion was made in an effort to keep this thread on topic and not get it jumping all over the place with name specific complaints.


you are right, I am sorry. I did post another thread about them, this thread should be didicated to what we as webmasters can do if we confront web hosting fraud. not what companys do it.

my sugestion is to go here. https://www.ifccfbi.gov

thank you
Jason Miller

Originally posted by Ihoppoet



you are right, I am sorry. I did post another thread about them, this thread should be didicated to what we as webmasters can do if we confront web hosting fraud. not what companys do it.

my sugestion is to go here. https://www.ifccfbi.gov

thank you
Jason Miller

Thank you ! :D

Suggestion noted . . . .

:D

being a stubburn country boy from Oklahoma I not normaly wrong, so enjoy it while it lasts :D

thank you
Jason Miller:D