I'm not entirely sure when everyone came to the "hosting" scene, but I started probably around 1996. Back then, when I was looking for a host for my web site, there weren't too many hosts around. I finally picked Communitech, and they helped me get my site up and running and I learned things in the line of hosting thanks to them.

This message isn't meant to point a finger at anyone in particular, I just want to hear some other people's opinions on this matter.

What has this industry come to? As I browse through the Advertising/Offers forum, my heart continues to sink. "Cobalts for $95/mo with 100Gigs of Transfer". "1,000MB of Disk Space and 50GB of Transfer for $12.99/mo". I can't stop from thinking "Wow ... I can't possibly match/beat that offer without going under."

But that's not even the slightest problem. There are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hosting companies to choose from. And the problem is, I believe, some of the wrong people are getting the customers.

Example. A real good web designer decides to start a web hosting company. He doesn't know the SLIGHTEST thing about managing a server, but he gets one anyway. He makes a really nice, flashy web site. He markets his service, and gets tons of signups. But you'll find him coming to forums like these asking questions like "One of my customers asked for anonymous FTP ... what is that?"

Then after that company who is offering 50GB of transfer for $10 bucks a month gets 50 signups who all use the transfer to the max, they close up shop. So all of their customers go to the next host they find who offers everything for nothing. Then they close shop. Then the customers go to the next host. And it continues.

What's my point, you ask? Well, I guess it is ... why is the web hosting market being ruined? Anyone can get into it, and fake themselves as being a professional and knowledgeable host, when actually they don't know the slightest thing about it! I mean, just look at all of the posts from hosts here on these forums. You'll see some posts from the intelligent hosts with intelligent questions, but then you'll see other posts from the "fake" hosts who are asking things like "How do I compile Apache?" or, "What is this sendmail thing my customers keep talking about?"

I apologize if this message offends anyone ... I just need to blow off some steam. Is there anyone else who feels this way, or am I the only one? :confused:

I think the people who answer questions here are pretty good guys (and gals).

Those who don't, well -- some might be in over their heads.

CPanel was probably the downfall. ;-)

-davidu

I have to agree that there seem to be far too many people running web servers who shouldn't be. And control panels are probably largely to blame, although I'd say that Raqs are at least as much at fault as CPanel.

On the other hand, customers are largely to blame as well: If a hosting company is running off of a Raq you shouldn't expect them to be able to provide you with anonymous FTP (or whatever you want which isn't provided by default). Server appliances are nice, but for all practical purposes they might as well come with a sticker reading "No Administrator-Serviceable Parts Inside".

As for the people offering excessive amounts of bandwidth... well I think they come from the same fold as the "Raq administrators": The most common reason for giving large (or unlimited) bandwidth is to avoid the trouble of measuring and billing for overuse. If you can't work out how to do something as simple as that... well you probably shouldn't be running a server.

I think the world would be a better place if more software subscribed to the suEXEC philosophy of "we're not going to tell you how to install this, if you can't work it out for yourself you probably shouldn't be using this anyway".

I've felt the same way many a time, Vincent. You provided the answers to your own questions, so there's no need to comment on them. I've seen many a post such as you describe here, including many from people who ask how to start a company when it's clear they have no business doing so and will be just another know nothing host.

Too many people want the rewards without doing the work.

That's why, ultimately, it's up to the consumer to educate themselves. Unfortunately, many don't, at least not until they've discovered the price of ignorance. Some make the mistake of judging by appearance, as you've noted. They are only deluding themselves as that is one of the easiest things to produce or copy. They haven't learned the old adage about not judging a book by its cover.

To become a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer you must complete the proper courses and tests for MCSE. However, to become a hosting company you only need money and time. It would be nice if there were some sort of certificate that either was required, or could be used, to become a host. That way, if consumers are looking for web hosts, they can purchase from only certified hosts.

Personally, I'm not a host or plan to be. I don't know enough about how to run a successful hosting company and that's why I leave it up to the better hosts to do. I just need to be careful when signing up so I don't get burned (it has happened before).

Vincent... your concerns are valid.. it seems that this open style of forum has also some part to answer here.

It often appears to many people that simply knowing how to find your way around a computer constitutes having the knowledge to operate a web hosting business..

Unfortunately being able to install software is not really going to help a host if they have no business knowledge, you can always hire a tech, but you must have your hands on your own business affairs..

The number of reseller requests that come from people who think they are buying the worlds cheapest franchise is increasing daily...

However, like many industries in the real world, it will likely find it's own level as people become more aware of the pretenders and frauds and their methods. Also longevity will favour those with some degree of quality.

I believe that the huge number of attempts at start up businesses on the net, but NOT in web hosting, is also without comparison in history... so it's also a reflection of the enormous impact and open, flat playing field that the www has created for ANYONE to 'have a go'....

Stick with it though...

I too have seen a concerning trend here...

Its impossible to compete with these people offering 100gigs of bandwidth for 99.00/month with a cobalt server included. They are undercutting themselves, when you factor in qualified personel, facility (if you should own one), power, etc per gig transfer charges at cost will run a provider at least 3.00/gig factoring in all those variables, for a provider to make a profit the end user should be looking at 3-4.00/gig. But now all these hosts come in here and sell products at below cost, to gain market share, the problem with this is, is that IT NEVER EVER WORKS out, and then when reputable providers price their bandwidth according to a reliable business model, they cant compete against the little guys who price their products at below cost.

The worst thing is its not these hosts fault that price their products below cost. Its the consumers who buy their products fault.

I see more and more people requesting unreasonable quotes from reputable providers.

If your shopping on price alone, you need to ask yourself, if you really should even start a business that requires use of the Internet.

In addition to what felix added, there's one other thing we've talked about elsewhere and not here. The relative anonymity of the Internet lets people hide to an unprecedented degree. You have children pretending to be companies, people with no knowledge of HTML pretending to be designers, those with no knowledge of technical issues pretending to be hosting companies, and, as felix said, people with a bit of experience with a personal computer thinking they can manage a server.

With server control panels, reseller accounts, web site tools and templates, people can put on a facade more
effectively than ever before. Unfortunately, it will be their customers who learn the truth and suffer for the "host's" lack of knowledge.

Everyday I come in here and browse the advertising forums, i'm always amazed how they can offer all those options at a very low price and I knew it that one of these days some other hosts will not be happy due to lost business and other factors.

There should be standards that need to be set, like a web host certification/license. Of course, hands on experience is still the best :) .

I am sure I will get flamed for this, but here it goes....

No hosting company can survive with plans under $6 - $7 mo. You just can not do it and be successful. Sure, some are more tolerant and can stay in business by the sheer will power of the owner providing support 24/7, but in time; No money = No business. I challenge someone to find me a strong hosting company giving away the farm for less them $6/mo. (PS - Hostsave is owned by Affinity). I understand many will offer small teaser packages with the knowledge users will chew up the allotted bandwidth or space and have to move to more expensive packages. So, I do not refer to these guys. I am referring to the host you see all over now giving everything for $45/yr for example.

Something else I have noticed lately. We are selling more $18.95 packages then we use to. Tells me people are getting burned and are now willing to pay $20/mo for uptime, service and support.

Originally posted by markblair
To become a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer you must complete the proper courses and tests for MCSE. However, to become a hosting company you only need money and time. It would be nice if there were some sort of certificate that either was required, or could be used, to become a host. That way, if consumers are looking for web hosts, they can purchase from only certified hosts.


Actually, to be an MCSE, you need only money and time, and Transcenders (exam simulation software). Supposedly the latest series of exams require that you actually know computers to pass them but the 4.0 and 2000 series were all multiple choice questions. The courses are just exam cram schools. They taught people how to pass the tests by memorizing questions and answers, but nothing about what any of it means or how it works.

I trained a number of "paper MCSE's" in 1999 who needed help changing their desktop wallpaper, and would use buzzwords that they didn't have the slightest idea of what they meant. After spending thousands of dollars in training and exam fees and expecting to be hired immediately for six figure NT admin positions, these people were only qualified for the IT field's equivalent to flipping burgers-front line tech support-and they had to be taught everything from the ground up.

It was the same with the web designers who proliferated last year, none of whom understood how any of the technology worked, but they learned how to use FrontPage or Flash, and depended on their hosts to do the heavy lifting. Many of them were also certified. I trained a number of them, too. FTP and testing new sites in various browsers before deploying them were unfamiliar concepts.

They have much in common with this new crop of web hosts. They are in it to cash in, get rich quick. Because they don't realize that, like all other fields in IT, these are all fields that require a high level of technical aptitude for success. No matter how easy the UI is, you still need to have at least a nodding aquaintance with what is going on in the background.

Certification is not going to be a guarantee that a web host knows what they are doing, no more than a Web Design certificate or a MCSE guarantees technical aptitude. All they will do is make money for the companies and schools providing the 'training' and administering the exams-if exams are part of the certification process.

This is an annual cycle in IT, every year, there is some trendy new thing that comes along that promises easy money for non-techies who career change and jump on the bandwagon, only to fall back off by the end of the cycle.

2001- Year of the Web Host
2000- Year of the Web Designer
1999- Year of the Paper MCSE/ Year of the Dotcom
1998- Year of the COBOL (Y2K) programmer

Something else new will come along. It always does.

Originally posted by Phoenix
I trained a number of "paper MCSE's" in 1999 who needed help changing their desktop wallpaper, and would use buzzwords that they didn't have the slightest idea of what they meant. After spending thousands of dollars in training and exam fees and expecting to be hired immediately for six figure NT admin positions, these people were only qualified for the IT field's equivalent to flipping burgers-front line tech support-and they had to be taught everything from the ground up. And the MCSE was far from the first. When I first began hiring IT people, it was the Certified Netware Engineer; and the situation you describe was why used to refer to the CNE instead as "Certified No Experiece."

On the other hand, certification of web hosts could have some value. There are existing certifications for which hosts can qualify, and among the requirements (depending on the certification) are that there must be specified warrantees and the like. Some check on the company's legal standing and require some sort of licensing or incorporation in order to qualify. Of course, many will argue that such things aren't necessarily indicative of a good host, and I wouldn't oppose that argument. I've mentioned before about a couple of these certification organizations that they exist primarily to make smaller or newer companies seem less legitimate than the big companies that are their members.

And perhaps the biggest problem would be that there's no certification for the certifiers. If I wanted to, I could get a group of hosts together, charge them a few thousand dollars for membership, and promote everywhere that only these few hosts have qualified to meet the most stringent requirements needed to be "A JayCertifed Host." That membership fee could be nothing more than a way to fund a marketing approach.

And that, in my opinion, is exactly what some of the existing certification organizations -- coincidentally founded by hosting companies or their owners -- are.

There wouldn't need to be certification or licensing if it weren't for the fact that many of the newer hosts (and a few of the older ones) lie to their customers, regularly. The problem is that lying about your business, makes us all look bad. And it gives customers a totally false view of what a web host is.

They play the smoke and mirrors game of 'I'm a NOC' when they are in fact a reseller of a reseller that is renting a dedicated server in someone's basement.

The prevailing opinion seems to be that you have to lie to your customers in order to make a sale. Unfortunately, they are going to find out eventually that they have been lied to-usually the first time something goes wrong.

There is nothing inherently wrong with being a reseller, it's how most people get their hosting. Most people do not buy hosting direct from the facility-it's very expensive to do so. They just think they are.

Many of the resellers I've talked to seem to be afraid that if people know they are a reseller for a particular company, that they will sign up with the company they resell for instead.

I've been idly kicking around the possibility of building a reseller program for a while, we've only once had someone resell our services and he turned out to be someone who makes Shang look like a choir boy. Major crookage. And although this wasn't a former reseller agreement, he was just buying additional accounts on behalf of his customers, and paying the bills, when he stopped paying those bills, we had to deal with his enraged clients.

In many industries, if you want to resell a company's products or services, it usually requires more than just signing up for it. They make sure you know how to sell and support whatever their product is. Remember back in the before time when you bought computers from resellers who were trained and certified by the manufacturers? The manufacturers sold the PC's to a distributor, and the distributor resold them to resellers, who resold them again to the end users.

That's the sort of reseller model I'm familiar with. Where each level concentrates on what they do best. The manufacturer with improving the product, the distributor with keeping the goods flowing from the manufacturer to the resellers. The resellers focus on providing value-added service and support needed by end-users.

It's time web hosting grew up and stopped playing Let's Pretend with the customers. It's not working, all it's doing is making things worse. It's time our industry realized "this is serious business here and not a game to be played by children" (to borrow from knoa's tagline), and started taking this seriously.

What alot of people dont understand is that sometimes resellers can offer the best support if their reselling for a good company, because by reselling you obtain an additional level of support, thats not there when a customer buys from the factory direct.

I havent read the entire thread but I did read your post thoroughly Vincent! I couldnt agree more!
Ive posted here on and off for a long time. I tend to visit less all the time. I have quite a few friendly competitors that dont even come here anymore for various reasons!
If I post I try to give help, but also try to urge people to check out hosts, etc. on their own and to not take solid advice from posters of the forum!
Whatever happened to the word "stable" in this industry? Anymore when coming here, host A that just opened last week, that sells 2.00 plans, comes in, makes a post, gets lots of customers, and next week, you wonder what happened? The industry has become SO UNSTABLE....its worse than pathetic, at this point!
A thread comes to mind about the kid that is 12 years old, being a host, or running his own company!?
Give me a break!
One of the mods encouraged him to re-open once he got his plans organized! Sorry, I disagreed THEN and I still do about that/and those comments made in that thread.
A kid at 12...is JUST THAT, A KID! Let them do some online volunteering or something of interest pertaining to the business...and then maybe when they are "of age" then they can enter into running a business!
OK.....Rant Over! :rolleyes:

If I would leave this forum, the only reason would be this Cpanel 3. I never saw one but every third question is about that. And the most of the posts are about problem and stupid questions about this control panel.
So in my point of view this isn't a program from god ;-)

I'm still in education, I do webdesign and I have webhosting clients. It was mentioned above that these types of business don't work and you have right I don't make a lot of profit. But nobody can win his first match.

Maybe the difference to other webhoster is, that my clients are very happy with my service and I know what I do. So it's at least not a loose - loose situation, more win - nearly win.

- domi

Originally posted by cbaker17
What alot of people dont understand is that sometimes resellers can offer the best support if their reselling for a good company, because by reselling you obtain an additional level of support, thats not there when a customer buys from the factory direct.

TRUE... and for example, some people perfectly compliment their existing web design business with such arrangements...

... however it's the recent flood of people to whom this is the 'first' business venture that I referred before. Looking for a fast buck maybe.

Many have not the most basic of understandings about managing a web site even, and they are intending on selling this service to others, who may or may not have a better understanding than themselves.. this equates to someone of reasonable intelligence deciding that there's a fast buck in dispensing medicine for common ailments, a general medical practitioner, or doctor.

Anyone with a bit of nouse could reasonably imitate the decisions and diagnostics of a family doctor (and many have :eek4: ) but have no depth of understanding of critical issues or prognostics...

So those that talk the talk and walk the walk inevitably lead their 'patients' into dangerous territory.

Maybe it means that the hosts who offer reseller opportunities should construct some sort of 'test' or questionnaire which at the very least displays some level of knowledge... although this is possibly unwieldy.

Most businesses in any industry come unglued in a year or less because the people don't have the background or experience in 'business' which of course includes a member of the business or company having an intimate knowledge of the product, in this case IT and web server management/admin.

Being a senior IT executive/technical whizz alone does not, however, qualify someone to operate a business, because even with a business plan which is impeccably prepared, the experience to know what to do if something goes off the rails is essential to keep afloat.

Having been involved in merchant banking I have seen many incredible ideas brought to the table and even with a strictly enforced criteria for due diligence and a cracker business plan, it's still very difficult.

I am fascinated to learn that the Microsoft training for certification is a cardboard cutout deal.

And Phoenix has an important point in that the fabrication of a business' location and capabilities allow amateurs to hide behind a screen of lies which are difficult for customers to recognise easily.

Voodoo Web, your type of honesty is exactly what we need... I would feel comfortable that you would tear down walls to solve a problem if I was a customer. :D

Originally posted by felix220
I am fascinated to learn that the Microsoft training for certification is a cardboard cutout deal.


Unfortunately that is quite true. Having looked at all the exam cram schools + small consultancies spouting 'We'll get you your MCSE in a week!!' etc. in my local papers, as well as talking to MCSEs I've previously come to the conclusion that getting an MCSE is a waste of time + money....... At least in my neighbourhood anyway :D I've read enough reports in the paper + anecdotal evidence from my friends to support the above.

Getting back to Vincent's original post, I totally agree with the points he's made. The sheer no. of ads that spout cut-down prices for all the features I've seen in my last 14-15 months here @ WHT really make me wonder the following :

1. Do any of these guys know what they're doing?

2. Are these guys for real and won't rip my money off?

3. Are they being totally honest?

4. Above all..... Can they demonstrate a business plan which shows your pricing structure, customer support levels/objectives + input costs? (e.g. server costs, co-lo, tech staff costs, etc. etc.)

Point 4 is partially moot, considering the anonymity of the Net and the refusal of many companies to even think about doing a plan in the first place (unlike a bricks-and-mortar business). On the other hand though, if someone showed me Point 4 and proved their business was totally viable and earning enough [b]profit[/i], then that would be a huge tick for them in my eyes (barring other mitigating factors).

My point is : I see a no. of parallels between the rise and fall of certain web hosting companies, and the dot-com crash itself. Get into the industry, make some money, then go bust.

<This post was not directed at anybody, just a general rant. We now return you to your regularly scheduled station>

This kind of situation has to be equally blamed on both hosting companies/resellers as well as end clients.

We have many such companies in India who specialise in such undercutting of prices. All they are into is making a fast buck or trying to get their competitors out of the market.

On the other hand there are clients who either expect
great service/features for dirt cheap prices or try to squeeze the maximum out of providers.

Both these kind of people are least concerned about technicalities etc. All they look at is the rates.

There are clients who have been hosting for years but know little about the industry or the technical issues.

Last month I had a client raise hell about frequent errors
and very slow server responses. He tried to use this opportunity to also get more space. It was found that
the client's programming was faulty...

There is also an interesting case of a small town near where I live.

A new textile/garment shop opened with a bang and
started selling products at unbelievably low prices. Probably they thought they could outprice and drive the others out of the market.

What actually happened was that they went broke and also brought down many shops there. Now some of the smaller ones which were smart enough are the only survivors.

This can also apply to the webhosting industry...

I would just like to add that a problem these days is that it is very easy for people to accept credit cards online, with companies like instabill, revecom and worldpay. The setup is cheap enough so "kids" can use them and there transaction rates are so competitive, that for example worldpays is better than what i will be getting with my "real" internet merchant account which is going to cost about $700 and thats not including implementing the security measures the banks want like firewalls and encryption.

My point is that, if it wasnt for these cheap ways of accepting cards we wouldnt have so many people setting up hosts to make a quick buck.

Well then let stop complaining already and do something. Lets start a web hosting association , when combined with the funding and knowledge from a few qualified hosts we could push simple ads informing everyone about the association. With the right amount of market penatration end users would know to look for that sign to buy hosting from hosts approved by the association. With a little research and help from our friendly law offices, bbb, solicitaions to politicians to approve and assist it could be done. You know that congress and state officials everywhere are also trying to come up with ways to prevent fraud and make an internet company just as reliable as you local hardware store. So lets try and form the group that starts that move and shows them that hosting is not another fly by night fraud or fad. Well, that ends my attempt at an inspirational speech. :)

*Elect Jag as your Chairman*
*Vote Jag * :)

I hammered this out without going back so please excuse any spelling or other errors.

With the right amount of market penatration end users would know to look for that sign to buy hosting from hosts approved by the association.

Here we go again.
Read this thread first to see what people thought of this idea. (http://webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=12366&highlight=guilds)

I didn't see that post.

Dear Everyone and my fellow WHT members,

I'm asking you to please Vote for me Elijah as your treasurer.

Thank you :)

Originally posted by BC
Unfortunately that is quite true. Having looked at all the exam cram schools + small consultancies spouting 'We'll get you your MCSE in a week!!' etc. in my local papers, as well as talking to MCSEs I've previously come to the conclusion that getting an MCSE is a waste of time + money....... At least in my neighbourhood anyway :D I've read enough reports in the paper + anecdotal evidence from my friends to support the above.


The only problem with this is that when i see an ad for employment in the paper or on a web site, they always ask for MCP/MCSE simply because they have heared the word, it sounds good, and they in personnel know nothing about computers, so you must get your MCSE even if it may be a useless set of exams.

Originally posted by elijah
Dear Everyone and my fellow WHT members,

I'm asking you to please Vote for me Elijah as your treasurer.

Thank you :)


I vote for you!!!!

(Treasurer of what, not the latest proposed version of the Web Host Guild or whatever that last ***** was called?)

Anyway, I still vote for you... :D

Originally posted by xtstrike


The only problem with this is that when i see an ad for employment in the paper or on a web site, they always ask for MCP/MCSE simply because they have heared the word, it sounds good, and they in personnel know nothing about computers, so you must get your MCSE even if it may be a useless set of exams.

Very much so. Another hopeless catch-22 situation :disagree:

Then again, MCP doesn't take too long to get.... If you have a spare grand or two in the bank :stickout

Originally posted by BC


Very much so. Another hopeless catch-22 situation :disagree:

Then again, MCP doesn't take too long to get.... If you have a spare grand or two in the bank :stickout


I wouldn't get it. Most real employers who are clueful (IE, the kind you want to work for; the kind who run unices) are relieved when I tell them I wouldn't waste time on it.

-davidu

Originally posted by felix220



I vote for you!!!!

(Treasurer of what, not the latest proposed version of the Web Host Guild or whatever that last ***** was called?)

Anyway, I still vote for you... :D


:beer: :D

Wow ... this thread has caused quite a response. Heh. I didn't visit the forum for two days and come back with 250+ topics to read! :)

Anyway, thanks for agreeing with me. Some of these "imposters" have caused me to beg and plead with my boss to lower this price, raise that feature, raise this, raise that, etc. It is almost coming to the point where a profit can no longer be made.

Ah well. Thanks for the response ... glad to know I'm not the only one who feels this way. :)

I am *really* happy to see this thread...............
I am new to this forum and still learning the rules. Forgive me if I get out of line, most of usenet isn't moderated....

We do very little hosting, we are a colo company and looking at doing some webhosting/colo reseller plans.
We also do VISP's and wholesale dialup under another name.

"No hosting company can survive with plans under $6 - $7 mo." - a truer statement was rarely made.

I buy T-1's, DS-3's, etc., and I know what bandwidth costs. It isn't free. There is no such thing as unlimited bandwidth. Period. A DS-3 can run $2500.00/mo. just for local loop, plus another 4-700/MB in bandwidth.
Fill that to 45MB once or twice with $4.95/mo. customers and see how long before your accountant quits.
There *is* such a thing as "I hope none of them fill the pipe before I can afford more" Most of them can't, and the landscape (netscape?) is littered with the bodies of those that have tried. I've shut a few down.
We've helped far too many folks who have no business running a machine keep going or get going, most seem to either get it under control or go with a managed box. I saw a thread about DNS in the colo area that scared me to death.

I often think the real problem lies with us, the providers. We don't educate our customers well enough.
I have had to explain that 64K CIR is not like a single ISDN line, and that your really don't need or want you own T-1 to host a few sites in most cases. What people want is speed and a reasonable price, so we charge for average bandwidth, all of it, and allow bursting without killing them.
We've fixed open relays, rebuilt compromised boxes and in some cases moved all their customers to one of our boxes temporarily. I've bought power supplies and disk drives, installed patches and upgrades and in one case just *gave* someone a motherboard. And I'm supposed the pipe, power and ping guy.
If only in forums like this one, please keep preaching "there ain't no free lunch." and maybe "Clues are not optional."
As long as the bottom feeders exist we will always have those who buy it, but the serious business people will listen.


"Being a senior IT executive/technical whizz alone does not, however, qualify someone to operate a business, because even with a business plan which is impeccably prepared, the experience to know what to do if something goes off the rails is essential to keep afloat. "

Ouch! That hurt.... but I won't tell why....we're still in business, still sound, just not as well off as we want to be....

Tom

"My point still stands, even though I'm wrong.":)
RevDrD demonsrates World Best Practice for usenet discussions

Originally posted by tom.oneil
"No hosting company can survive with plans under $6 - $7 mo." - a truer statement was rarely made.


I disagree. No hosting company can survive with plans under what it costs to provide them, yes... but to try to place any fixed dollar value on the "minimum cost per account per month" is wrong. Look at the costs: Bandwidth, disk space, CPU time, account setup, accounting, support. Smaller accounts can use less bandwidth, disk space, and cpu time: Not everyone needs GB/month, in fact I know several people using less than 10 MB/month of bandwidth. Account setup and accounting can be automated (been there, done that). And support... I'll conceed that if you try to provide AOLish support to everyone it will cost a great deal, but if you make it plain that you're not going to provide handholding from the start then support costs can be pretty low as well.

It is one thing to say that any specific plan cannot be profitably offered for less than $X/month, based on the bandwidth quota listed; but it is quite another to say that no plan, of any sort, can be profitably offered for under $X/month.

Hello, I feel a little stupid diving into this thread directed at resellers like me. All valid points just to get that straight.
But I`m wondering what all the fuzz is about? take certification, wouldn` EVERYONE with a inhouse tech pass the test? including ***** and the likes. This one dimentional test would most likely be seen as a "reason to buy" certificate where the potential customers will look no further (not even into the directory reviews). In other words, you would "flame" your certificate as much as you do with resellers right now.
(I have a feeling I missed some points with the above argument, but what the heck :) )

The one thing I was wondering about is, even though you don`t have outrageous packages, aren`t you doing very good business with all the other bits involved into place? You grow steady but you`re not after doing a quick load of money anyway so why all the :angry: , wouldn`t it even be a tougher business if all were top noch hosts as intended with your certificate (then there would only be price to compete with, now where would that leave you (medium sized businesses))?

I disagree. No hosting company can survive with plans under what it costs to provide them, yes... but to try to place any fixed dollar value on the "minimum cost per account per month" is wrong.

Show me a successful company under for $7.00/mo for full featured hosting. I am not talking about those that have teaser rates, knowing customers will have to upgrade either. Also, the company has had to of been in business for over a year - hence successful.

Sure a reseller could find a place like Donhost and push low cost services, but how long is the body going to last when the brain dies? For those resellers partnering with companies not sticking to a bottom line and putting a monetary amount to it, you will sink with the ship. I know a lot of web host that were posting here in November that used Alabanza. Many are no longer in business, and many more had to raise their rates past the $6 - 7 threshold when Alabanza jacked up the rates. Alabanza is still trying to recover from too low of margins.

"but to try to place any fixed dollar value on the "minimum cost per account per month" is wrong."

This really amazes me. How do you price your services with out this?