Hello,

For those of you who are not aware of the policies that EIS (Everyday Internet Solutions, www.eishost.com) have inplace, please BEWARE.

This company has a 30 day cancellation policy, and a no refund policy. What this means is if you get bad service, for one you can't get a refund. Two, if you choose to cancel because of that bad service, your account won't be cancelled for 30 days. And any charges that occur in that 30 days will be charged IN FULL, and not prorated.

Let me describe our experience in a little more detail...

We purchased an Virtual Private Server with the "Developers Plan
" around 4/21/03. It was installed with Ensim within 24 hours.

After receiving the system and using it for 1 day, we had had many times where the server responded very slowly, and sometimes gave Page not found errors. We were not sure what the cause was and waited for it to pass. After a few days of using and configuring the system, it had not stopped. We submitted a couple tickets to their support area, and on the second ticket we figured out that Apache was the cause. They did try and say that a "cgi-irc" script that we had installed was the cause, but the problem occured before this script was made executable, and this script is not used in high volume. Twice before learning about Apache the system crashed so hard that we could not reboot it ourselves.

After learning about Apache, we have had to restart Apache several times a day to keep the server running. We also realized that memory was running out and that's when it became slow. We were told by EIS that our plan should of not been used for web hosting. Well no where on their site (see: http://www.eishost.com/minidedicated.html) does it say that Ensim web hosting can not be done on the Developers plan. The only thing to suggest is the title. But as you can see cpanel and h-sphere requirements are clearly stated, it actually leaves you to assume that it is OK to run Ensim on the Developers plan. (Also that brings another issue, we were told by EIS that they don't normally give out more then 8 IP's for the Developers Plan, but it is also not stated, another bad business practice.)

So the next thing that we decide to do is upgrade our plan, so that we will be running under their suggestion for web hosting. Well, to do this they say they will immediately charge us $79 just a week or so after charging us $49.95. And then they said they would credit the pro-rated portion of the $49.95 back to our account AFTER we've already paid the additional $79. After we explained this was a not a fair practice, they made an exception and allowed us to only pay $22 for the next upgrade. Well we told them OK but dont do the upgrade for a couple days because we dont have the money now. Well, they posted the charge in 1 day, then did the upgrade later that night (last night). Our credit card was declined, as we told them it would happen.

Now today the server runs with 256M of RAM in the Bronze Plan. But it STILL has the identical problem. For whatever reason now it does not run out of memory before it slows down, but it is fixed exactly the same way by restarting Apache.

We told EIS today that we intend to cancel our account, and have already began moving our customers off of the server. They kept insisting that we submit a trouble ticket to solve the problem, but we kept reminding them that we already have chosen to cancel and don't need to fix what we don't intend to use.

It's been just a little over two weeks, and we don't plan to use this VPS for more then a few more days. But, we still owe them $22, and they will charge us another $79 again on 5/21, and then cancel our account on 6/7 or 6/8, if we notify them of the cancellation of today.

So that's $79 x 2 = $158 for a poorly working VPS used for only 2-3 weeks of time.

After a long conversation via chat, they would not make any exception and we chose to post this here.

I advise not dealing with these people, because of their very strange and unfair cancellation and no-refund policies.

Thank you,

Neofree

Another excellent reason for reading and fully understanding client agreements before signing up with any service provider - online or offline.

Charge it back, with those questionable policies you would win for sure. Make your intentions known as well. They most likely won't even charge you and my even give a refund if you let them know your planning on issuing a chargeback.

Originally posted by Reality Hosting
Charge it back, with those questionable policies you would win for sure. Make your intentions known as well. They most likely won't even charge you and my even give a refund if you let them know your planning on issuing a chargeback.

While I agree, I disagree. The policies were listed there, they aren't there just because it is "cool" to have one. Doing a charge back because the end user didn't carefully read the policies is not fair. Now the host should refund them because of the problems or offer some better solution to resolve this issue. It can go both ways.

Before you do a chargeback, contact your state's consumer advocacy office. Depending on state laws, you (and other residents of your state) may be shielded from things like this advance cancellation policy. I think that enough people don't bother to look into this before they jump on chargebacks (which may be your final solution, but it should be just that - a final solution, tried when other methods don't work.)

When moving to your next provider, read and understand the policies that you're agreeing to. If you don't understand them, contact the host and ask for clarification. If you **really** don't understand them, that might be a sign that the host doesn't fully understand them - which could potentially lead to a big hairy furball of a mess further down the line. Don't just sign up for services assuming that you can get out of things later on.

I'd like to point out that the customer contacted me earlier today and basically threatened to post on WHT. I told them to feel free to post whatever they feel they must.

We opened their account in a timely fashion, answered their support questions in a timely manner and upgraded their account when we were requested to do so. One thing i would like to clarify is this...

So the next thing that we decide to do is upgrade our plan, so that we will be running under their suggestion for web hosting. Well, to do this they say they will immediately charge us $79 just a week or so after charging us $49.95. And then they said they would credit the pro-rated portion of the $49.95 back to our account AFTER we've already paid the additional $79. After we explained this was a not a fair practice, they made an exception and allowed us to only pay $22 for the next upgrade. Well we told them OK but dont do the upgrade for a couple days because we dont have the money now. Well, they posted the charge in 1 day, then did the upgrade later that night (last night). Our credit card was declined, as we told them it would happen.

I believe the charging for the new plan and crediting for the existing plan is reasonable. There was not going to be any prorating for the old plan, unless the customer wanted to switch their billing date to the date the new plan was put in place. Does it really matter if we would credit the account then charge for the new one or vice versa since it was all done in a matter of minutes and does not post to card in real time anyway?

I made them the deal to upgrade and they said they could not pay the difference for a day or two, so I set the charge to go through in 2 days and put the upgrade work order in. We upgraded their account in good faith, waiting to get paid the difference for a few days. Not really a problem, I was happy to do it.

The customer contacts me today via instant messenger and tells me that they are still having trouble. I asked if they had submitted a trouble ticket. They said no since they were planning to cancel the account on, I believe the 16th (my messenger logs on my machine at the office), of the month. I politely informed the customer of our 30 day cancellation policy at which point they began to threaten to post our policies on WHT.

Just to clarify this...we hid nothing from the customer, we worked with them as they asked and even went a little beyond for them. Now they post here on WHT and who knows where else and will probably do a charge back on us which we will fight and most likely win since our merchant provider knows our policy and defends it.

What more can a company do? We've had this policy in effect for almost 2 years and rarely does someone complain. If they plan to cancel they time it so their cancellation falls at the end of their billing period.

So thats our side of the story. :)

While I agree, I disagree. The policies were listed there, they aren't there just because it is "cool" to have one. Doing a charge back because the end user didn't carefully read the policies is not fair. Now the host should refund them because of the problems or offer some better solution to resolve this issue. It can go both ways.

Just because you put something in your ToS, doesn't make it legal, nor does having a clause in your ToS for over two years make the statment legally binding. There are limits to what you can bind a customer to.

Secondly, with computerized builling having a 30-day cancellation policy serves only to gouge a customer who's done with your service and doesn't want to use it anymore for a few more bucks. Personally, I just think that's wrong.

Finally, Leslie and Robert are correct...a chargeback should be your final recourse. It's just been my experience that the majority of the time the other avenues end in a dead end.

Well as far as legality goes, we've had the TOS on our site written and researched by a law firm. They were instructed to not put anything that would be deemed marginal in the final revision you see on our site.

The point here is that it is OUR policy. If you don't think its unfair then don't host with us. We don't want anyone to think they are being treated unfairly.

Not to mention that no one has mentioned the fact that we have done everything we can for this customer. They are not complaining about our support or timeliness in setup or upgrades. They are complaining about our cancellation policy. If we were in the wrong for anything we did here, we would say so...I have nothing to hide.

keep in mind we upgraded the customer to a larger account and still have not been paid for the upgrade. As a matter of fact I would still like the customer to stay and enjoy all our service has to offer. However it seems they were never really willing to give it a chance considering they were with us less than a week and got an account that is suitable for hosting just last night.

Doing business on the internet, the laws in neofree's state or country take priority.

Actually Reality, if you want to sue a company you have to do it THEIR home town. So the terms of service and acceptable use have to be set for the area the host is in, not the the customer.

Otherwise every business throughout the world would have to abide by every law in every country.

If EIS published their ToS, including the 30-day cancellation policy, on their site and made the docs available to clients before they signed up, then it's the job of the client to read them, understand them, ask questions if they don't understand them, and go elsewhere if they don't agree with them.

It is a fact that some parts of nearly any contract may be overridden by local laws. It isn't frequent, but it does happen. If EIS had their client agreement either written by a legal professional or looked over by a legal professional before they made them live, then again - they've done their part to protect themselves and their clients.

(I have worked for companies that, when designing their web sites, tell the designers to put the ToS in small print or on another page because "people won't read them anyway". It's starting a really frightening trend.)

A contract is a contract. If people disagree with it, then they should not enter into it. It also helps if people learn of any particular protections or obligations their own locality's laws may give them. Too many people don't bother.

Chargebacks are to be used in cases of fraud. This doesn't sound like a case of fraud. It sounds like a case of a customer entering into a contract before they understood all of their rights and responsibilities under said contract.

Chargebacks are to be used in cases of fraud. This doesn't sound like a case of fraud. It sounds like a case of a customer entering into a contract before they understood all of their rights and responsibilities under said contract.

I couldn't agree more. It's also important to note that there are many companies in this industry that require a 30 day cancellation notice.

Laws apply where the company resides.

It's probably going to take me a few posts to respond to everything, but here goes...

>I'd like to point out that the customer contacted me earlier
>today and basically threatened to post on WHT. I told them to
>feel free to post whatever they feel they must.

I offered Everyday several times to avoid this. I really think his policy is unreasonable considering the circumstances.

>We opened their account in a timely fashion, answered their
>support questions in a timely manner and upgraded their
>account when we were requested to do so. One thing i would
>like to clarify is this...

Not disagreeing with this in general. You did respond to my support questions, but my problem was never fixed. You also went back and forth between thinking my problem could be fixed, and saying I need to upgrade to the next plan.

>quote:
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>So the next thing that we decide to do is upgrade our plan, so
>that we will be running under their suggestion for web hosting.
>Well, to do this they say they will immediately charge us $79
>just a week or so after charging us $49.95. And then they said
>they would credit the pro-rated portion of the $49.95 back to
>our account AFTER we've already paid the additional $79. After
>we explained this was a not a fair practice, they made an
>exception and allowed us to only pay $22 for the next upgrade.
>Well we told them OK but dont do the upgrade for a couple
>days because we dont have the money now. Well, they posted
>the charge in 1 day, then did the upgrade later that night (last
>night). Our credit card was declined, as we told them it would
>happen.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I believe the charging for the new plan and crediting for the
>existing plan is reasonable. There was not going to be any
>prorating for the old plan, unless the customer wanted to switch
>their billing date to the date the new plan was put in place.
>Does it really matter if we would credit the account then charge
>for the new one or vice versa since it was all done in a matter of
>minutes and does not post to card in real time anyway?

This is not what you told me. My chat program does infact log all conversations by default, so I do have this on record. You told me I would be first charged $79 and placed on a new billing cycle. After my credit card was already charged, you was going to credit my account with the prorated unused portion of the original $49.95 I paid you. You could say I misunderstood you, but I questioned you reasoning for doing this then, and you agreed to go against your policy and only bill me for the difference, hence the $22. Yes, I appreciated that at the time, but still thought it was odd that you would of done it the other way had I not said anything.

>I made them the deal to upgrade and they said they could not
>pay the difference for a day or two, so I set the charge to go
>through in 2 days and put the upgrade work order in. We
>upgraded their account in good faith, waiting to get paid the
>difference for a few days. Not really a problem, I was happy to
>do it.

I also told you not to charge my card until I told you it was OK, but you charged it anyway, one day early. And, I also told you last night right after I saw the charge added to my account, that I wanted the charge cancelled and the upgrade cancelled. At that time, the upgrade was not done yet. Not until sometime later in the evening or early morning was that done after I told you not to.

>The customer contacts me today via instant messenger and tells
>me that they are still having trouble. I asked if they had
>submitted a trouble ticket. They said no since they were
>planning to cancel the account on, I believe the 16th (my
>messenger logs on my machine at the office), of the month. I
>politely informed the customer of our 30 day cancellation policy
>at which point they began to threaten to post our policies on
>WHT.

I began to get upset yes, this is quite rediculous if you ask me.

>Just to clarify this...we hid nothing from the customer, we
>worked with them as they asked and even went a little beyond
>for them. Now they post here on WHT and who knows where
>else and will probably do a charge back on us which we will fight
>and most likely win since our merchant provider knows our
>policy and defends it.

You did go beyond your policies at first for me, yes. But what I asked you to do is standard with many other companies I've delt with.

>What more can a company do? We've had this policy in effect for
>almost 2 years and rarely does someone complain. If they plan
>to cancel they time it so their cancellation falls at the end of
>their billing period.

You know what, maybe you do have a good hosting company and have few problems with this. But it's not like I just said "man I don't like Ensim" and blamed it on you and expected you to give me all my money back. What infact happened is that my server never and still does not work right. I had to restart it to check my e-mail right before typing this now. And multiple support requests have been submitted, aswell as notifications of problems via chat. Now when I noticed that the problem still existed after I took your recommendation of upgrading, I did not report it because I decided to cancel.

It comes down to this. I may be at fault of not reading your terms of service. But that doesn't make them right. I posted this in the first place to warn people of your policies, not to claim that you broke them. However there are people in this post, and people at Ensim's forums and myself included who doubt the legality of this policy. But let's say it is -- it's still a bad policy. I agree with a previous poster, you really come off trying to get a last buck out of people.

I got a unusable VPS, and after multiple support requests still had a unusable VPS. Yes, I think I got poor customer service, and because of the most rediculous policy I've heard of, I got to pay $170.95 for it.

And if you're wondering why I say $170.95, it's because I didn't add everything up the first time:

$20 setup fee + $49.95 + $22 I owe for upgrade that shouldn't of occured yet, + $79 that I will owe later because of bad policy = $170.95.

>So thats our side of the story.

OK, but I don't care if I signed a contract with you. (Which I didn't.) This is still BAD policy.

Another post coming in a few...

Neofree

If you signed up for their services, wasn't there something that said "By signing up you are signalling acceptance of our Terms of Service"? If so, then yes, you did sign a contract.

This sounds like a matter to be resolved off of these boards. Please continue your discussions either between the two parties, or between legal representatives thereof.

Actually Reality, if you want to sue a company you have to do it THEIR home town. So the terms of service and acceptable use have to be set for the area the host is in, not the the customer
Laws apply where the company resides.

Actually this is incorrect - in the US almost all sates have so called "long arm statutes" specifically for internet transactions (as well as face to face tranactions)

basically, you can bring a case in fed dist court if the defendant lives in another state...

...just wanted to clear that up

>Well as far as legality goes, we've had the TOS on our site
>written and researched by a law firm. They were instructed to
>not put anything that would be deemed marginal in the final
>revision you see on our site.

Yeah but is it legal in our state? Do laws in Colorado imply differently and override? I don't know. But even if it is 100% legal it doesn't make it right.

>The point here is that it is OUR policy. If you don't think its unfair
>then don't host with us. We don't want anyone to think they
>are being treated unfairly.

Neither do I! That's why I'm warning people right now.

>Not to mention that no one has mentioned the fact that we
>have done everything we can for this customer. They are not
>complaining about our support or timeliness in setup or
>upgrades. They are complaining about our cancellation policy. If
>we were in the wrong for anything we did here, we would say
>so...I have nothing to hide.

Um, yes we are unhappy with the support as well. The server was never fixed, even after upgrading it. Never said you were hiding anything, just that you have a wild policy.

>keep in mind we upgraded the customer to a larger account and
>still have not been paid for the upgrade. As a matter of fact I
>would still like the customer to stay and enjoy all our service
>has to offer. However it seems they were never really willing to
>give it a chance considering they were with us less than a week
>and got an account that is suitable for hosting just last night.

Let me remind you that we couldn't pay you because we didn't have the funds yet. And we warned you of this and you agreed not to charge for a day or two until I notified you.

And did you read my original post? Where on your website does it imply that the Developers Plan can not be used for Ensim hosting? We both know you use Ensim VPS. And you note special requirements for cpanel needing Bronze, but not Ensim. And H-Sphere needing Gold, but not Ensim. Since Ensim is the root software, I would think others would agree that your page could be interpreted that the Ensim hosting software will infact run on a Developers Plan.

Also, the upgrade didn't fix the issue. If you had fixed the issue, maybe the Developers plan would of still worked just fine. Because it infact did work fine if we kept restarting Apache before the memory ran out.

I'll update this tomorrow after I get in the office and check the logs. I don't remember any conversation last night, since I wasn't online after I left the office.

I agree that WHT is not the place for something like this. If you want to warn people (as you put it) fine. Don't, however, tell them that we did not offer you proper service. How many times did I say to put a support ticket in so the guys could check out the problem. I even remember mentioning that an upgrade MIGHT fix the problem, if it still appened after the upgrade I said we would figure it out. You were running a cgi script of some kind that one of my techs said could be causing the problem. Since we did not hear from you via our support desk that there was a problem after the upgrade are we supposed to assume there is a problem?

If you gave us even a short amount of time to look into the problem today I'm sure it could have been taken care of. We rarely ever see a problem with a VPS and we run quite a few of them.

Um, yes we are unhappy with the support as well. The server was never fixed, even after upgrading it.

Again, how are we supposed to know this unless you send in a trouble ticket? The first thing I said this morning was to send in a ticket, you said you weren't going to bother since you were cancelling. So it appears you made up your mind to cancel before the upgrade was even done. We received no email or tickets asking for the upgrade to be cancelled.

>I couldn't agree more. It's also important to note that there are
>many companies in this industry that require a 30 day
>cancellation notice.

Maybe, but most companies either have a refund polcy, money back guarantee, or something to protect those who are unhappy with the quality of service. Although this is the first I've ever heard of a policy like this. My present and my previous to that provider don't have a policy like this. They both understand my situation too BTW.

Is anyone surprised that his current host agrees with him? Have you ever met a host that will agree with anothers policy when tallking to a current customer who is thinking of switching? ;)

Seems like a bit of a stretch to make a point neofree.

>I'll update this tomorrow after I get in the office and check the
>logs. I don't remember any conversation last night, since I
>wasn't online after I left the office.
>
>I agree that WHT is not the place for something like this. If you
>want to warn people (as you put it) fine. Don't, however, tell
>them that we did not offer you proper service. How many times
>did I say to put a support ticket in so the guys could check out
>the problem. I even remember mentioning that an upgrade
>MIGHT fix the problem, if it still appened after the upgrade I said
>we would figure it out. You were running a cgi script of some
>kind that one of my techs said could be causing the problem.
>Since we did not hear from you via our support desk that there
>was a problem after the upgrade are we supposed to assume
>there is a problem?
>
>If you gave us even a short amount of time to look into the
>problem today I'm sure it could have been taken care of. We
>rarely ever see a problem with a VPS and we run quite a few of
>them.

As I told you, we are cancelling for two reasons. 1. Poor quality of service. 2. Our customers did not like Ensim.
We were already considering cancelling, but the problem pushed it over the top. I knew that the upgrade wasn't going to fix it, but I went along so we could rule that out.

I don't know how many more times I need to say it. I didn't report it because I chose to cancel. I had already felt I had enough, and my customers were unhappy with Ensim. Our conversation went calm until I found out of your rediculous policy.

You know you're missing the point. I feel we are getting shafted.

$170.95 for 2-3 weeks of a poor quality VPS.

$22 of that shouldn't of been charged because we hadn't agreed for you to charge yet. (Or should I say attempted to be charged.)

I am not asking for a refund. I'm asking that we call it even with fee's paid thus far. I'm getting a lot less then what I paid for. I'm a new customer that you have not been used to receiving my payments each month. It didn't work out, I don't think it's going to because of reasons I've already said again and again. I don't think it's fair despite your policy. And I don't think others do either.

Thank you,

Neofree

Originally posted by neofree
Our conversation went calm until I found out of your rediculous policy. [/B]

It's been said before, and again, and again, and again...

Always, read the TOS before signing up. The fact that you didn't care to really leaves no one else to blame but yourself.

Neo,

Seems like your name "neofree" goes quite well with what you are trying to do, and that is get something for free.

akash: You are very wrong on this, if long arm is only applicable if you contact them, if the customer contacts you then the jurisdiction is in that state.

Back to NEO, if you read the terms and agreed you should live by what you did. A 30 day policy is common place in the hosting industry and it's to protect companies from people like yourself that look to get something free. It sounds like they did everything they could to accomodate your needs, now you need to work with them and come to an agreement... Looks like you put this post in a few other boards as well which tells me this is more of a personal issue then a warning. You are upset that a company will not bend the rule for you.

I hope everything works out, but doing a chargeback will only hurt every other online company and their rates and if he subscribes to chargebackburea or any of the other online reporting systems it will ultimately come back in the long run.

Try to work out it, I see both sides of this, but I think taking this public like you have is wrong. I have searched for other comments on WHT and have found nothing negative about this company so that tells me that they can not be that bad...

Originally posted by neofree
You know you're missing the point. I feel we are getting shafted.

$170.95 for 2-3 weeks of a poor quality VPS.

$22 of that shouldn't of been charged because we hadn't agreed for you to charge yet. (Or should I say attempted to be charged.)

I am not asking for a refund. I'm asking that we call it even with fee's paid thus far. I'm getting a lot less then what I paid for. I'm a new customer that you have not been used to receiving my payments each month. It didn't work out, I don't think it's going to because of reasons I've already said again and again. I don't think it's fair despite your policy. And I don't think others do either.

Thank you,

Neofree

Have you tried to suggest this to them off the forum ? Becuase if this is what you are asking then it sounds very fair

>It's been said before, and again, and again, and again...

>Always, read the TOS before signing up. The fact that you didn't
>care to really leaves no one else to blame but yourself.

OK, so what if I add this to my ToS:

In order to cancel, you are required to send 1 Corvette.

Are you going to say that again too?

If I pay $79 on 5/21, and my account is cancelled on 6/7, thats only 16-17 days I get for $79. When it's supposed to be $79 per month. This can't be legal.

>Try to work out it, I see both sides of this, but I think taking this
>public like you have is wrong. I have searched for other
>comments on WHT and have found nothing negative about this
>company so that tells me that they can not be that bad...

So, maybe they haven't complained? Maybe they had good service and went to cancel and found the policy annoying but since they had good service they didn't say anything?

I got bad service AND I got to pay up the roof for it!


>Have you tried to suggest this to them off the forum ? Becuase
>if this is what you are asking then it sounds very fair

I thought so. And yes I have. I went around in circles and found that I had no options but to warn people of this. I am *still* surprised that a company would do something like this, no matter how many of you want to hold up the ToS like it's a FBI badge or something. It still isn't right.

Our society has systems in place that consumers can use if they feel that they've been treated unfairly. They include, but are not limited to:

* consumer advocacy groups, often state departments
* arbitration / mediation
* civil suit

You should look into using those methods, not just try and get public opinion on your side.

The fact that you come to a forum known to be heavily populated by web hosts and essentially say "I don't think the contract is fair, and because of that I don't think I should be held to it" is a bit odd. If you didn't think that the contract was fair, then why did you agree to it by signing up for the services? Even if US citizens think that a law is unfair, they have to attempt to change it. They can't just defy it and expect to get out of obligations that they had previously agreed to.

You say that something isn't right. Yet you entered into an agreement wherein you agreed to be bound by this contract, which binds the merchant as much as it binds you. Did you not read the contract? Or did you just assume that you could get out of it later on?

If you think that what a company is doing is wrong, then don't do business with that company. Or contact the company and ask them why they have the policies that they do, and why they don't have other policies. Or if you truly feel strongly enough, report the company to the authorities AND don't do business with the company.

Life isn't fair. Bemoaning the fact isn't going to get things changed. Maybe your complaint will be the start of better regulations for the hosting industry - who knows? But if you enter into a contract, and try to get it changed after the fact, that doesn't really make people all that sympathetic to your situation.

akash: You are very wrong on this, if long arm is only applicable if you contact them, if the customer contacts you then the jurisdiction is in that state.

I think it all depends on how the state interprets a website (as far as establishing contact goes) - some states (like missouri) hold that if the defendant (in this case Everyday) publishes an "order form" or something of that sort(advertisement, price list) - that is an offer. This again relies when the states definition of active and passive websites and how jurisdiction is established for the two.

I think the case was Maritz v Cybergold - where US dist court denied cybergold's motion to dismiss based on lack of jurisdiction because cybergold did not explicitly limit who can and can't access the website. Servers were located in california and martiz/cybergold were in 2 different states. Case was filed in missouri. - but then again the tort in the case wasn't the same as this - not breach of contract or something like that..

Internet law isn't really etablished too well, so I could be wrong - but I think we'd both be right up to a certain point - it all depends on the case and the facts behind it, and the state's long arm statutes

living_media: I'm not expecting to accomplish anything with these posts at WHT/others more then letting people know. Sure it is *my* fault for not reading the ToS, but you know as well as I do that I won't be the only one. And I bet if half of his customers knew about this it would disturb them. But the truth is, most of them probably did NOT read it, but also may not of had any problems.

I want to clarify, I'm not trying to attack Everyday's company as a whole. I just think that in this situation, his policies look very bad. Others have probably been bitten by this too, wether Everyday wants to admit it or not. (Or maybe he's not aware as he has different staff that could of delt with the issue.)

As far as paying for the fees that are scheduled to be paid, I will work on that privately.

Thanks,

Neofree

Greetings Neofree:

Since when is ignorance of the law an excuse?

Since when is the percentage of people who don't read a contract before signing it or otherwise accepting it, an excuse?

Neofree, only you and EIS know what truly happened. I'm not taking sides on those issues.

However, there are too many people who are too quick to jump to public forums (you posted here, forum.psoft.net, and how many other places???) instead of trying to

A. Accept their portion of responsibility.

B. Working things out privately.

Take care.

dynamicnet:
I have accepted my responsibility. People need to be aware. We keep going through the same issues with this thread. Yes, I didn't read the ToS, but it still does not make it right.

I worked very hard to avoid this post privately.

It makes it legal so it makes it right.

Would it still be right if the policy said you had to send a Corvette car to cancel?

Maybe "not right" isn't the best way to say it. It is uncompetitive, or "bad", or unfair, or unneccasary, etc.

Maybe the corvette thing will be abusive and, therefore, illegal and not right.

Many companies have that kind of policies but not only host and not only online.

My advice: pay and learn. Learn to read ToS.

Originally posted by neofree
Would it still be right if the policy said you had to send a Corvette car to cancel?

Maybe "not right" isn't the best way to say it. It is uncompetitive, or "bad", or unfair, or unneccasary, etc.

Yes, if it was in their TOS and not hidden...although this isn't the same as your situation.

What your host required for cancellation was not too different from what other companies ask for. Again, I think you entered into a contract without fully understanding your obligations...and ultimately that is your responsibility.

Officer, I didn't know the speed limit was only 35mph. I don't think it's fair you're writing me a ticket.

Well, wether other companies have them or not do make them good policies. I haven't heard of this, and yes I learned the hard way about it.

But really pissed me off with EIS's policies is not just the 30-day policy alone, but multiple points that applied to the situation:

* 30 day cancellation Policy
* Any fee's that are due in the 30 days are charged in FULL, not prorated - This is a big one for me because I am paying $79 for half a month, not a full month if I cancel now. I'm better off waiting until the day before my renewal to cancel. But I am not going to use the account for the rest of this month, let a lone the who extra month. So I am paying a lot for time unused.
* No refund policy or money back guarantee. I didn't just not like it and decide not to use it. There was and is a continous quality issue from the beginning.

So one of these alone may not of rubbed me so hard the wrong way, but it was all 3 that really made me not beleive that a company that otherwise seemed decent was really much more interested in protecting themselves then my interests.

I work for one of the 3 largest computer companies during the day. (Will leave it at IBM, HP, and Dell, one of those but won't say) And I work in a Customer Service environment. One thing I have learned both here and every other related job is that you go the extra mile for customer satisfaction. And you realize that 1 complaint is 10 times more damaging them 1 praise is helpful. I really felt I got bad service, and am paying an unbelievable price for it. I think that an exception should be made in this case, as I would if I was in his position.

You think an exception should be made to you. For me THAT would be unfair and not the ToS. Why you and nobody else?

I don't know how it works in the US. But in Spain the three companies previoulsy mentioned are pretty good at weird ToS too.

So in other words, neofree, the warning that you want people to get is this:

Read and understand any agreements before entering into them. If you read but don't understand them, ask for clarification. If you read and understand them but don't agree with them, don't enter into them.

I understand your puzzlement over the perceived customer service issue. However, I in turn find it puzzling that you thought that a company would not seriously enforce its posted rules and policies. You work for large corporations, so you may have had encounters with members of their legal staff. Strange things go on inside the minds of legal staffers - sometimes too strange to be believed; but they always take these things very seriously. I once was in a meeting with a group of editors and site production people for a major computer programming community, asking a legal department representative about trademarking and about how the company wanted it done. The lawyer answered the question, we asked that it be sent to us in email (to end the intradepartmental edit-go-rounds) and the lawyer replied with "We don't want to put anything in email because it might be used against us in a future deposition." Companies may have odd reasons for doing what they do, but rarely do they not take an issue seriously, especially if it's something that was put into a legally binding contract.

Always read the contracts, understand them, and if you don't agree with them, then take your business and your money elsewhere. But don't think that the company won't take it seriously.

Originally posted by neofree
Well, wether other companies have them or not do make them good policies. I haven't heard of this, and yes I learned the hard way about it.

Yes, I agree with you, the policy is not consumer-friendly. But it is their policy and it was clearly written in their TOS.

Best you can do is to vote with your feet and never do business with them again (if that's what you want to do).

I do think this is a good lesson for you (maybe a little expensive), but I bet in the future, you will read any agreement you enter into? So think of the positives - You'll never enter an agreement you don't fully understand, which may save you a lot more than what you lost here.

BTW, I license software from an ASP and I have to give 3 months notice of cancellation. The license renews every 2 years and each year I pay $2000. But I'm not angry at the company, because before entering the contract, I reviewed and fully understood my obligations and responsibility.

neofree, you tipped you hand early with this post:

>I'd like to point out that the customer contacted me earlier
>today and basically threatened to post on WHT. I told them to
>feel free to post whatever they feel they must.

I offered Everyday several times to avoid this. I really think his policy is unreasonable considering the circumstances.

Clearly you tried to threaten them with a post here, you deeming a post here was a real threat, that you could damage their company. You should watch what legal issues you bend around here.

From your posts, as you admit, you don't like ensim so you were going to move. Everyday even provides demos of the Ensim, did you try one of the demos first? You as the consumer clearly had the chance in both the terms and the choice of the control panel to make an informed choice, you chose to ignore all of this, blindly plunge in and now are demanding satisfaction or you will try and harm their business. You are demanding satisfaction for your own laziness.

Get a job and quit blaming someone else for your own shortcomings.

Chet

Cancellation notices are common in the industry.

The NOC (data center) we use for co-lo requires a one year contract and 90 day cancellation notice prior to the end of the contract. If we send in the notice 89 days prior to the end of the contract then we must renew the contract.

We also have the 30 day cancellation notice in our hosting TOS. And a new client must enable a button that states he read and agrees to the terms of the agreement before he can sign up for hosting.

Yet we receive this same nonsense from many clients who decide to cancel without giving any notice. And many cancel during the month and demand a refund for that month since they will not be using the month. Or demand a refund for the last six months because they have not used the web site after signing up for it.

Contracts are written to spell out the obligations of both parties and to protect both parties.

I like Matt (Everyday), he's a good guy. I don't like people (neofree) taking their opinions and shoving them down everyone elses throat because they feel they can do no wrong (apparently).

I haven't heard of this, and yes I learned the hard way about it.Guess you shoulda read the fine print before inking the deal, an obvious mistake on your part.And you realize that 1 complaint is 10 times more damaging them 1 praise is helpful.So you live on the pretense that you deserve more than everyone else because you'll raise a stink. Glad you aren't my customer.

Matt, I applaud you sticking to your policy and not letting this guys threats change your stance.

Just so everyone who has posted here is aware...

I thought of coming in here this morning and posting the entire log of messenger conversations but then I thought, what would that prove? I'm trying to go tit for tat here. We've explained our point to the customer many times.

Some people here disagree with our policy, most seem to agree with it.

Anyone who is searching for information regarding our company here and finds this thread will be able to make their own decision. If they wish to sign up with us then we're happy to have them. If they choose to go somewhere else then I hope they are happy with that choice as well.

Unless there are some new developments with this thread we are content to just let it end.

Have a great weekend everyone!!!

Originally posted by Reality Hosting
Just because you put something in your ToS, doesn't make it legal, nor does having a clause in your ToS for over two years make the statment legally binding. There are limits to what you can bind a customer to.


Exactly.

A contract cannot enforce something that is against the law. In Canada, the purchaser of a service or product that is used for electronic means (ie webhosting) they may do with that service as they please, so long as it is not in contravention of the law. Furthermore, if you are in Canada, you can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, who, if they choose, can press a suit in your name against the company.

Policies are fine, but you can't ask a judge to enforce something that is illegal.

That said, the law in this regard (at least in Canada) is also a two-edged sword, as the customer is completly and solely responsible for all the actions on the account, even those done by a third party with or without permission.

Everyday,

I agree with you. We have both told our sides of the story, and I hope that this thread can help people better understand your policies.

I agree this has gone far enough and also think we should let it go now.

Have a great weekend yourself,

Neofree

It all comes down too.

"RTFTOS!"


Read The Freaking Terms Of Service

neofree :: You really can't expect EIS to change the policy JUST for you because you think it's unfair. That's ridiculous. Just because I purchase a product from a store that SHOULD work for longer than their return policy doesn't mean it's unfair. It's just a standard that they have to stick by for EVERY customer or they wouldn't make any money.

Just to update anyone who cares...

neofree never paid the $22 upgrade fee that he agreed to pay. We were told to wait a couple of days, then a couple of more then he would tell us when it would go through.

Also he has not paid for this months renewal.

I would say to other hosts to be careful when dealing with this customer.

Funds have been available for a few days. When is the last time you tried charging?

Last night.

Can we talk privately?

I just e-mailed my AOL and ICQ id's.

Thanks,

Neofree

In order to make a TOS a legal document within your state, do you get a lawer to look over it and make any changes that need to be made and paste the law ferms information at the bottom of your TOS for verification purposes? If the lawer reads over it and appoves of it, does he noterize it? Let me know so i can make sure to do this for my company and make everything as legal as posible.

To our knowledge after researching it with the state we found out that we just needed to get our lawyer to print up the TOS on their letterhead. Basically what they said was to have the lawyer look it over and make any changes they feel are necessary then print it up.

Since the lawyers are not allowed to put any illegal content into their documents this allows the state to consider a legal TOS.

So thats what we did.

I just wanted to post a follow up to this situation after the dust has settled...

Although I still don't agree with the policies, I admit that it is my fault that I did not read the ToS. Also, I am still using Everyday's services as they have a good price on Ensim VPS. We are paid current and this is no longer an issue.

Overall I would say that their service is still good, but may want to rethink their cancellation policies, as it doesn't really accomodate a person with a bad experience, or a new customer.

Thank you,

Neofree

Reading 4 pages of what seems like total nonsense about 1 single TOS is just stupid.

I have been a customer with EIS for over 1 year and I have had no problems with them. In fact in the beginning they were extremely accomodating as their merchant account provider had issues processing non US cards. Which is now fixed.

I think it is clear that one should always read the TOS before signing up. One of the reasons that many hosts have what seem to be draconian rules on money back etc is exactly for the reason that someone might sign up and leave just like that for reasons such as neofree stated that their customers weren't happy with ensim!

Part of the reason many hosts will charge large setup fees on low priced month to month packages is that they are not simply setup and they need to start to claw back some of the money on the hardware they have taken a risk on.

It seems that the less clients pay the larger the amount of flesh they demand out of a company.

Not to point the finger at anyone, but i think there isnt much to be learnt from this thread, aside from reading the TOS and also trying to sort things out sensibly in private first. Which luckily seems to be what has happened in the end.

EIS is a great company and I will personally always recommend them to anyone.