I came across this while checking out defon1.org for new updates. I remembered yesterday or the day before someone asking in another thread the difference between FreeBSD and Red Hat (or any other Linux).

For any of you interested, here is a quick explanation of why FreeBSD is better. This isn't intended to start a heated debate on "which is actually better", it's just purely for information and to inform those who aren't aware of FreeBSD (or any other BSD).

http://www.defcon1.org/html/Software_Articles/Commands-Flags/cvsup-build/VNC/choose-fbsd.html

I know you said that this wasn't meant to start a debate, but I have to bring something up that I haven't seen anyone else talk about.

It has to do with employing system admins. Sure, we can argue all day long FreeBSD or any flavor of BSD is more secure and gets better performance at first install than say RedHat linux (I personally have no experience with and BSD so I have no idea one way or another) but there is alot more than that to consider when deciding which OS to use for a hosting company.

When you first start out with a full rack or less that can be handled by one sys admin, what operating sys you choose probably doesn't affect your bottom line since the owner of the company usually chooses the operating sys he can work on himself. But as a host gets bigger and you have to start taking on more staff and in particular, more sys admins. You will find hiring a BSD guru is harder than it might seem and they will definitally cost you an arm and a leg since they are few and far between.

Microsoft, with all it's security flaws, still has a very large server market share (though be it mainly inhouse and not as much in outsourced hosting). The main reason for this, is because Microsoft trained and certified employees are a dime a dozen. If one quits, it takes less than a week to find another qualified one.

Now with Linux gurus it gets alot harder. I can't find the url's but I remember reading that on average, it takes 3-4 times longer to find a qualified linux admin than it does for Microsoft. And they are definitally getting paid alot more than microsoft server admins. So not only does it cost more to keep the boxes up and running, but you have alot bigger chance of being shorthanded if someone leaves.

So if linux, with the biggest market share of the server market out there is hard to hire for, imagine how hard it is to hire qualified BSD admins. And of course with special skills come special salaries going through the roof. I would guestimate that 99.9% of colleges don't teach it, most training schools don't teach it. Basically the only way to learn BSD is to teach yourself with no help. Thats fine and dandy, but the truth is without mainstream educators (of any sort) teaching BSD, it will be very hard to find qualified admins for the systems as you grow.

Originally posted by JeremyL
You will find hiring a BSD guru is harder than it might seem and they will definitally cost you an arm and a leg since they are few and far between. ...

... Basically the only way to learn BSD is to teach yourself with no help. Thats fine and dandy, but the truth is without mainstream educators (of any sort) teaching BSD, it will be very hard to find qualified admins for the systems as you grow.

Very good points indeed. However, BSD is Unix (or extremely close to it -- much closer than Linux). There are a good amount of Unix admins out there. Linux is a cousin to Unix/BSD, and is extremely similar.

If you can administrate a Unix/Solaris box, BSD should be a breeze. You have to learn a few tricks here and there, but it's basically the same. If you can administrate a Linux box, BSD would be a bit harder since Linux does a lot of the grunt work for you, but with a little bit of learning, a BSD box would be pretty easy to administrate.

Whether you know Red Hat (or other Linux), Solaris (or other Unix), or FreeBSD (or other BSD), you should easily be able to administer a FreeBSD box. I first started on RH myself. I then got a job administering Solaris machines. I then went back to RH and got to know Linux quite well. Then I ventured on to FreeBSD. I didn't have to learn many new things in each instance. All three operating systems are organized in their own ways, but once you understand the organization, the three suddenly become _very_ similar.

I do understand your points though. No matter what *nix/BSD you use as servers, you'll always end up paying more for the admin's salary than that of a MCSE admin's.

Plus, FreeBSD is easier to administrate. It is set up in such a way that the same modifications in Linux would take quite a bit of work to do. In FreeBSD, it's just a few commands/modifications away. A great example is modifying the kernel. In FreeBSD, just change a config file around a bit, add/remove stuff to it, and then run a couple of commands and reboot. In Linux... hehe... it takes a bit more work. It's not hard, it just takes more time -- time I can spend elsewhere.

I'll agree with you, though. FreeBSD is not a cheap system to administer. But in the end, I always find it very rewarding. The reliablity of the OS is reason enough to spend the money, which isn't even very much. :)

Since you admitted you didnt know anything about freebsd or any unix variant why even get involved in this thread?

ANyways your statement baout there not being as many unix admins as there are linux admins is quite wrong.

There is actually many more admins that have worked longer with unix variants than linux, as unix has been around alot longer than linux.

Also the number one enterprise OS solaris is a unix variant.

since when do you all have to argue about system performence...

i have a 66mhz HP Vectra running OLD OLD OLD unix on a black and orange monitor..and that damn thing is too much fun to just sit down and toy with.

people should worry about how much fun something is not how much crap it gives you.

but then again...i havent cut my hair in a year.

Originally posted by JeremyL
So if linux, with the biggest market share of the server market out there is hard to hire for, imagine how hard it is to hire qualified BSD admins. And of course with special skills come special salaries going through the roof. I would guestimate that 99.9% of colleges don't teach it, most training schools don't teach it. Basically the only way to learn BSD is to teach yourself with no help. Thats fine and dandy, but the truth is without mainstream educators (of any sort) teaching BSD, it will be very hard to find qualified admins for the systems as you grow.

Actually, I have a whole bunch of friends that are sysadmins. Almost all of them know BSD (as well as linux flavors like RedHat). If you're a good sysadmin that likes RedHat, you'll still know BSD. And vice versa. I think the majority of the sysadmins I know would claim they know BSD better than RedHat.

There are more people overall that use RedHat. That doesn't mean there are more people that are qualified to be RedHat sysadmins.

Originally posted by cbaker17
Since you admitted you didnt know anything about freebsd or any unix variant why even get involved in this thread?



Ummm.. Because it's a public forum and my membership to this forum gives me the right to participate in any thread I want. If you want to tell me I'm wrong, fine that doesn't bother me. But just because I'm not an expert on the subject, doesn't mean I don't have the right to put my opinion in. This kind of attitude is what's killing this board. It seems like more and more, every other thread on this board is turning into a pissing match with people trying to degrade or belittle other people.

Originally posted by JeremyL


Ummm.. Because it's a public forum and my membership to this forum gives me the right to participate in any thread I want. If you want to tell me I'm wrong, fine that doesn't bother me. But just because I'm not an expert on the subject, doesn't mean I don't have the right to put my opinion in. This kind of attitude is what's killing this board. It seems like more and more, every other thread on this board is turning into a pissing match with people trying to degrade or belittle other people.

wow. agreed indeed.

I wanst trying to tell you not to participate, but you posted saying you wernt trying to start a debate, then you start throwing out facts that simply arent true... seemed contradicting to me....

either way sorry if i came off rude...

No problem, I thought you were being rude on purpose but I now see I might have jumped to conclusions and that you weren't trying to be.

Actually I thought I was on the money since I know alot of people who know Linux and windows but no one personally that knows BSD in particular. Maybe it's just the people I know and have met though.

HEH.. I started this same conversation 5-6 months ago here and it went nuts. I actually have been playing with one of our new servers that I put BSD on and I actually like it. Ports makes everything sooooo easy a 7 year old could setup qmail, apache etc. etc. It can handle nice apache loads too, I may actually switch to BSD here =X.

Originally posted by jic
HEH.. I started this same conversation 5-6 months ago here and it went nuts. I actually have been playing with one of our new servers that I put BSD on and I actually like it. Ports makes everything sooooo easy a 7 year old could setup qmail, apache etc. etc. It can handle nice apache loads too, I may actually switch to BSD here =X.
Just be careful with those ports. Some things are worth installing by hand. :)