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View Full Version : Tacid Host lost W2K


MPD
06-06-2001, 02:10 PM
Well I just got information from the Tacid Host owner that they lost their W2K hosting... and all accounts are closed.

However he states that he is moving all sites over to his Unix servers.... well here is the conversasion I had with him on AIM

____________

PTFD4131: what is going on? My accounts are down and gone and not accessible?
TacidSupport: where are they on?
PTFD4131: www.ninn.net is my main one
TacidSupport: we are resellers of fasthosts and we got chat down
TacidSupport: shut
PTFD4131: ohh ****
TacidSupport: we are moving everyone
TacidSupport: to our UNIX servers
PTFD4131: ohh thats going to work great since not eveyrone wants unix
TacidSupport: ohh well
PTFD4131: can I quote you on that?
___________________

Not good, not good at all

Akash
06-06-2001, 02:34 PM
This is another reason for customers to ask for a refund on the basis that they were told Tacid own's their own servers.

Shang told everyone in their old boards that he owns his win2k servers and that they were not resellers of any company.

So if you are reading this and you are still a Tacid Customer:

1) What's wrong with you?
2) Get a refund NOW!!!!
3) Find another hosting company that doesn't offer unlimited(metered) bandwidth/diskspace......they don't exist!

AlaskanWolf
06-06-2001, 05:46 PM
Tacidhost brings back memorys of weaselboy

AussieHosts
06-06-2001, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by akashd
Shang told everyone in their old boards that he owns his win2k servers and that they were not resellers of any company.

Yeah, you're right. He made out he had dedicated boxes at FH didn't he. Not as a reseller.

Gary

mekmal
06-06-2001, 06:05 PM
I was with Tacid, I received an E-mail from members@instabill. It said that Tacid had three accounts that did not comply with the terms of agreement and Tacid was removed from their service, all acounts on win2000 will be shifted to unix and be offered 250m space and 3g trans.

although I canx'd Tacid two weeks ago I am getting this e-mail, I wonder if he still had me as an active account to continue billing??:rolleyes:

And your correct he did say he owned the server.
And I am one of those that asked for a refund but am still waitting

Akash
06-06-2001, 06:07 PM
at least he's not offering unlimited bandwidth/diskspace like he used to:rolleyes:

that's a step in the positive direction.......

ICS Canada
06-06-2001, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by akashd
at least he's not offering unlimited bandwidth/diskspace like he used to:rolleyes:

that's a step in the positive direction.......

I agree......

Badone
06-06-2001, 07:59 PM
Well for some reason www.tacidblue.com redirects to www.tacid.net. If I can remember right tacid.net was owned by tacidhost, am I right? On their site they give some excuse, I'm not sure if it's true. Also, if you click members on their site, for some reason to add subdomains, pop accounts, etc., it's the same as it was on tacidhost. Hmm.... Just seems a little suspicious to me. They also have all the same features.

MPD
06-06-2001, 08:08 PM
That is because the person that owns that site bought reselling package through fasthost.co.uk and re-created the username for Tacid and got their directing set up to go to his own site..... now this is only until tacid gets their act together and realizes it and transferes their DNS that is ponted that way.

On another note I see that <<EDIT>> has set up a recovery option to get W2K service without people having to wait for DNS change

AussieHosts
06-06-2001, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by MPD
On another note I see that <<EDIT>> has set up a recovery option to get W2K service without people having to wait for DNS change

There's no need to speak about "<<EDIT>>" in the 3rd person Brian... :-)

Seriously mate...I have the utmost respect for all of our clients. But it would be just asking for trouble recruiting the "ex-tacid" crowd. There were some fairly undesirable characters there, as you know.

Gary

MPD
06-06-2001, 08:36 PM
There is no reason to punish those that had no control over what happened.... wouldnt you agree?

Akash
06-06-2001, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by MPD
That is because the person that owns that site bought reselling package through fasthost.co.uk and re-created the username for Tacid and got their directing set up to go to his own site..... now this is only until tacid gets their act together and realizes it and transferes their DNS that is ponted that way.

On another note I see that <<EDIT>> has set up a recovery option to get W2K service without people having to wait for DNS change

I suggest you watch yourself, Chicken has already given you your final warning, and I know he'll ban you this time.

MPD
06-06-2001, 09:38 PM
So no one can assit these people that are in dire need of assistance.....

We are clear on that subject

thanks

Akash
06-06-2001, 09:45 PM
the only way that we should help those customers is warn them about Tacid Host and other similar hosts. We can not tell them to go to another host(specifically yours), just because they are offering a discount because of their loss. And if you read what it says on their site, they can't ask for a refund from TacidHost.....it's a catchy way to steal money from gullable customers......

Ericd
06-06-2001, 10:08 PM
MPD, how can we be sure you are not another Tacid? I mean, i went to your hostSearch review ( http://www.hostsearch.com/showcomment.asp?companycode=3207 ) and the only review is from www.montepd.com

We have been going through Webmanix for 2 years now, Wouldnt switch for anything. They have made our goverment web site look and work great Chief Ray Sowers http://www.montepd.com

However, your domain has been registered on April 27th 2001, are we already in 2003 or did you operate under another name? :rolleyes:

roguemind
06-06-2001, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by :uzi:Editor:smash:


There's no need to speak about "<<EDIT>>" in the 3rd person Brian... :-)

Seriously mate...I have the utmost respect for all of our clients. But it would be just asking for trouble recruiting the "ex-tacid" crowd. There were some fairly undesirable characters there, as you know.

Gary
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
:angry: I get screwed and im branded a "undesirable character", Who <<EDIT>> are you to call me
that <<EDIT>> :angry:

MPD
06-06-2001, 10:34 PM
The Montesano Police dept. web site has been registered for well over 3 years, we just recently reniewed our web site in april. If you knew what you were talking about you would have noticed that the domain name itself was registered in 1999. Prior to that we were under a subdomain name.

here are the records for your review

Record last updated on 13-May-2001.
Record expires on 24-Feb-2003.
Record created on 24-Feb-1999.
Database last updated on 6-Jun-2001 09:42:00 EDT.


Notice the 1999, you can recive this general infromation through the who-is on network solutions web site.

Ericd
06-06-2001, 10:38 PM
I know what i am talking about. You host with WebManixHosting since 2 years right?

MPD
06-06-2001, 10:55 PM
Yes that is the current name that they are under.. prior to that they were webmanix, and the designer that has worked with the web sites was under a designer name only through another company.

Ericd
06-06-2001, 11:00 PM
Domain Name: webmanixhosting.com

Created on..............: Fri, Apr 27, 2001
Expires on..............: Sat, Apr 27, 2002
Record last updated on..: Tue, May 29, 2001

Anyway, that's just weird a client going to a web hosting board advertising (i mean spamming) for the host he is with and don't stop talking about it. :rolleyes:

You own ninn.net right (that's what you said in your first post of this thread)? So you are Brian Baldwin, VPO of WebManixHosting? Are you?

skysenshi
06-06-2001, 11:07 PM
Ok, I'm really confused.

Webmanix is tacid? If it's Tacid, it can't be 2 years old. Tacid is a fairly new company that started in early 2001.

But the review is under Tacid, when you are talking about webmanix or aaaahhh.. ok i'm really confused.

as for roguemind,
I think he didn't generalize all of us Tacid victims. He was only talking about some. "Some" being the operative word.

Ericd
06-06-2001, 11:14 PM
No, i don't think they are tacid. They just act like it. Like "MPD" who is in fact Bbaldwin (according to his first post in this thread) the VPO of WM. Spamming of this board. Etc

MPD
06-06-2001, 11:21 PM
No I only refered to it in third person once, the others were state a fact and history as was asked. there are several people wh have assisted in this history of MPD.

I spoke of it in third person because that is what seems that most people do in this board.

now skysenshi can and should be able to vouch that I am an honest hard working individual as many should since I tried to help get their serivice straight with TacidHost a few months ago, going to bat for them, and trying to get their support completed.

I wanted to let the people that are getting screwed that I was trying to provide them an option to recoveringtheir account quicker... in fact I am losing money by trying to help them

However I am sure the flamers onthe board could care less and are more into pointing fingers.

MCHost-Marc
06-06-2001, 11:29 PM
MPD: There is nothing wrong with promoting your own company; as long as you do it honestly. :)

skysenshi
06-06-2001, 11:31 PM
OMG!

MPD is Brian (btw, he's a good guy)! Now I remember Webmanix. They were a client of Tacid too. In fact, we were both once on the support team of Tacid...

I miss the avatars :bawling:


In the meantime, I'm waiting for instabill's response to my email because I'm pissed with them for saying they declined my client's card (when my client's bank says he was charged) :angry:

And their toll free number doesn't work too. Maybe instabill is owned by Shang???

Ericd
06-06-2001, 11:49 PM
That's ok, but don't say you are a client, just say it's your company, this way people will know you are honest and you will have more leads :)

MCHost-Marc
06-07-2001, 12:11 AM
If Instabill would be owned by Shang, they would probably already have a few lawsuits in their mailbox ;)

Eiv
06-07-2001, 07:28 AM
I wonder if you ever going get refund since all their website is down for past 5 days. I only signed up for about a week. Could I tell my bank to refuse the credit card transaction since the service is not delivered.

Colin
06-07-2001, 08:39 AM
It's interesting to see how Tacid's former customers and resellers are putting up "We are not related in any way to Tacidhost" notes on their sites.

Even lahlah.net's got that on their index, yet the whois shows that ol' Shang owns the domain name.

Hmm...

roguemind
06-07-2001, 09:01 AM
Just tell ur bank or creaditcard company what happened and you'll get ur money back

MPD
06-07-2001, 09:03 AM
They are putting that up because good Ol shang registered everyones account in his own name when he did domain registration.....

And he wont change the information for anyone...
I have been getting a lot of requests on assistance for that issue

RescueHst
06-07-2001, 09:06 AM
Look whats on the Tacidhost.com web site :)



_______________

This to inform all clients that TacidBlue webhosting has been closed & all your money will be refunded if it was within the 30 period. Just email your InstaBill Order ID (in the subject line) to shang2k@msn.com to get your $20 refunded.

We will only do refunds for the next 24 hours.

_____________

mottymeister
06-07-2001, 10:41 AM
LahLah.Net is the net's leading provider of inexpensive web hosting services, hosting over 400,000+ websites on Windows 2000 and Unix servers. Through our superior network, world class support and out innovative package, LahLah.Net, Unlimited, we provide a service literately like no other, with unlimited almost everything, weather you are a developer or new to the net, this package gets you everything you need which has helped us earn our solid reputation for quality and service.

Registrant:
Joe Shang
P.O.Box 307, 98000 Miri
Porter, Sarawak Malaysia
Malaysia

Administrative Contact:
Shang, Joe shang2k@msn.com
21905 Horseshoe Circle
Porter, TX 77365
USA
2813544166:angry:

Whos who!

MPD
06-07-2001, 10:55 AM
And Shangs web site too :angry:

Akash
06-07-2001, 11:04 AM
Notice how he hid Porter County into the registration address......I'm guessing that's his US PO box number too....

Akash
06-07-2001, 11:21 AM
MPD...............are you sure you aren't brian baldwin???? do I have to release the chicken on you?

Planet Z
06-07-2001, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by akashd
MPD...............are you sure you aren't brian baldwin???? do I have to release the chicken on you?

Seeing as they have the same exact IP... whoops! Busted!

Chicken
06-07-2001, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by skysenshi
OMG!

MPD is Brian (btw, he's a good guy)! ....

I feel sorry for those of you with Tacid, in that you've apparently been through enough crap with them, that you think MPD and his company are 'one of the good guys'.

User was warned more than once, asked to read the guidelines, told exactly what he could and couldn't do, but decided to lie to all of you anyway, and pretend to be a customer.

In my experience, these types of hosts are the ones you should stay far, far away from.

Akash
06-07-2001, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Chicken


I feel sorry for those of you with Tacid, in that you've apparently been through enough crap with them, that you think MPD and his company are 'one of the good guys'.

User was warned more than once, asked to read the guidelines, told exactly what he could and couldn't do, but decided to lie to all of you anyway, and pretend to be a customer.

In my experience, these types of hosts are the ones you should stay far, far away from.

did you ban his IP???????

AussieHosts
06-07-2001, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by roguemind

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
:angry: I get screwed and im branded a "undesirable character", Who <<EDIT>> are you to call me
that <<EDIT>> :angry:

It was a generalisation. Note the word "some".

Gary

mlovick
06-07-2001, 01:15 PM
http://www.lahlah.net/host/aboutus.asp

Is this the Shang?

MCHost-Marc
06-07-2001, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by mottymeister
..LahLah.Net is the net's leading provider of inexpensive web hosting services, hosting over 400,000+ websites on Windows 2000 and Unix servers...

Can you explain me how comes that you have the same design as TacidHost ? :rolleyes:

mottymeister
06-07-2001, 01:27 PM
Well we shall see how he explains it to these guy's, some of us may have been burned by Tacid, but we will not take it lying down.
Shang may think he can get away with it but every dog has it's day.:mad:


The Internet Fraud Complaint Center (IFCC) is a partnership between the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the National White Collar Crime Center (NW3C).::

mottymeister
06-07-2001, 01:38 PM
Also using a clients domain name has to be some sort of crime?
http://www.101ac.com/
101ac (http://www.101ac.com/)

Know the owner of this domain name and it's not shang
:rolleyes:

Eiv
06-07-2001, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by MPD
They are putting that up because good Ol shang registered everyones account in his own name when he did domain registration.....

And he wont change the information for anyone...
I have been getting a lot of requests on assistance for that issue

TAINTED-AURA.COM
MADDENUNIVERSE.COM
FUNNYFREE.COM
CIWHOST.COM
ORIGINALWEBPAGEDESIGNS.COM
CCSLOCAL.COM
GVSCORP.COM
HPWARDPEPPERS.COM
BLINK182XMM.COM
DOMINATIONNETWORK.COM
LITTLET.NET



check out Whois for all those domains. They all registor as shang. In fact they shouldnt belong to shang. I am one of them who got cheated. I believe there is a lot more. I wish I knew this board before I signed up with tacidhost.

AussieHosts
06-07-2001, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Eiv
I wish I knew this board before I signed up with tacidhost.

Which is why I started "It has to be done".

(http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=10134).

It was not a decision I took lightly, but right back then I was sure enough of where this was heading. The first reply canned me for my efforts...and the rest is history. Hopefully it served some good.

Gary

Akash
06-07-2001, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Editor


Which is why I started "It has to be done".

(http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=10134).

It was not a decision I took lightly, but right back then I was sure enough of where this was heading. The first reply canned me for my efforts...and the rest is history. Hopefully it served some good.

Gary

You have no idea how you have changed my life!

Badone
06-07-2001, 06:49 PM
Lol, this is like a soap opera. LahLah.net used to be hosted by Tacid. So if Shang isn't running it I'm thinking maybe they bought their domain with tacid and Shang just put his name as the registrant. Tacid did sell domains (or register them). When LahLah.net was hosted by tacid they had the EXACT same design as Tacid except for the colors (not really exact, but you get the point). Plus, if Shang did register it, he always said he lived in Texas, but one of the addresses is a P.O. Box in Malaysia. What is with that?

mottymeister
06-07-2001, 07:39 PM
tell me why then oneof my friends domains which washosted by Tacid is now been used by LahLah hosting not just a re-direction he has uploaded the whole LahLah site up to his domain without his permission now as i fare as i know thats Illegal

If shang doesn't own LahLah he has given out customers FTP details and hehas changed it's password

joshivivek
06-07-2001, 07:41 PM
is there a way to get the domain changed from shang name to us, i dont even have the password. :(

Eiv
06-07-2001, 07:59 PM
Hehe I dont think you can get the domain back from shang. I emailed goldady a few days ago. They told me transfer ownership will cost $49.95. Hehe, so I dont think Shang is going to pay for it. The best way is to block the credit card transaction and get the money back.

Mongo
06-07-2001, 08:10 PM
I need to redirect my domain name from tacid too....
The worst thing is that I have tagged about 600 images with my domain name which is registered to shang.

This means that if I do not get control over the domain name, I will have to completley redesign my site and lose any potential customers that would have followed the url on my images.

shang will hang!:kaioken:

AussieHosts
06-07-2001, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by mottymeister
tell me why then oneof my friends domains which washosted by Tacid is now been used by LahLah hosting not just a re-direction he has uploaded the whole LahLah site up to his domain without his permission now as i fare as i know thats Illegal

If shang doesn't own LahLah he has given out customers FTP details and hehas changed it's password

Not necessarily. With the reseller services that Tacid had used, it is very easy to simply "point" (or "map") multiple domain names to one single domain. So that probably discounts the "uploaded the whole LahLah site" scenario.

What it doesn't explain is how all these other "hosts" are popping up everywhere, and as in this case, some are redirecting old Tacid clients' domains, or Tacids' *own* domains, to their own sites.

It looks very much to me like "tacid" has simply multiplied into many little "tacii". :-) But these others must be given the benefit of the doubt, as they may have absolutely nothing to do with Shang.

Either way, it appears most of them are simply copying other sites, (we host 400,000 domains, been here for years, unlimited everything for $20 a year, etc)...and this is where the industry will suffer.

Gary

BC
06-07-2001, 08:49 PM
Lahlah.net was actually a Malaysian reseller of Tacid.... Their representative 'Koo' was here for a while but I had to ban him for trying to spam WHT ;) I believe he's reselling for a different company now :rolleyes:

klisis
06-07-2001, 08:53 PM
lahlah? Does it mean anything?

Akash
06-07-2001, 09:56 PM
if your domain has been "hijacked" by Shang, and you can prove that you own the intellectual rights to it, you may file civil suit in Small Claims Court to have the domain name right fully returned to you. If you decide to do this, you must put both Shang's Name/Address, as well as the registrar's. You can only ask for the name and nothing more....

I plan on doing this with NameZero(they registered my own name-.com/net and org!)

Marie Greer
06-08-2001, 01:21 AM
This is what i recieved in the mail.




TacidHost is a reseller of FastHost.co.uk and our account with them as been shut down, witch means all of the people we host has been shut down too, because of breach of contract.

Because of:
media711.com
tmiller.com
capcomp.net

These 3 sites contained illegal material that caused for the whole account to be shut down.

Please note that we are taking right now a series of steps for this matter, and we are going to move everyone in our Windows 2000 hosting to our UNIX servers. It is going to have its advantages and disadvantages.

ADVANTAGES:
1) Free control panel
2) Free livestats
3) Pre-built CGI scripts
4) PHP4 Support
5) mySQL support

It is going to come with 500MB Space and 3GB transfer.

You should recieve your new account information within 24-72 hours.

I am sorry for the inconvience.

toya
06-08-2001, 01:27 AM
i got the same email....i JUST registered with tacidhost on sunday....i made a request to cancel my account the day before all this stuff happened. i sent them the email requesting a refund, but i still haven't gotten a response. i don't know what else to do. :angry:

MCHost-Marc
06-08-2001, 01:29 AM
Lahlah.net is probably the same Shang as Tacidhost. Just check the signup buttons on www.lahlah.net ...taken from ***** :(

mimi
06-08-2001, 01:55 AM
I think lahlah is not same as tacid, because I have ask them to help, response time is much more faster, and they say lahlah is their temporary site, they will have a new site soon, free control panel which develop by their own development team.

I think lahlah should be able to trust

This is only my opinion;)

mimi
06-08-2001, 02:17 AM
lahlah say want to help all the site whose hosted by shang, and now not working because of tacidhost down.

it say to setup all the site for them, for the same price which tacid offer $20, it normal price is$59.

it is because lahlah also diconnect from tacid, now lahlah is the dedicated company to do hosting business, not under tacid already. (last time is reseller of tacid)

they will develop own control panel for all, free.

and it may move the site to others, because same like all here, the domain name "lahlah.net" also register by Shang, so if shang change the NS record, then the site can not use already.

this is what lahlah.net told me, they setup a account for me already.

I contact eddie@lahlah.net, your can contact him if any question or don't belive they

mottymeister
06-08-2001, 03:21 AM
One can only wonder is their business practices better, once you get hit you are not so keen to try again. Tacid has done a lot of damage too the reseller industry.
I would be more inclined to pay more any have the security of a company that is going to be around more than a month or two.:cool:

mottymeister
06-08-2001, 03:26 AM
bump

mottymeister
06-08-2001, 03:28 AM
aah double post

mimi
06-08-2001, 03:34 AM
What I hear from my friend, lahlah.net have a good support group which last time help shang also.

And they are few partner to monitor the site, it should not happen like the tacid again.

They say they will have a member's area, only those got domain hosted on lahlah.net can be access, which is web base control panel and support system, can let user to add subdomain, email, complaint... real time or within 1 hour

they are loose from tacid also, they will have a better support system design by their developers.

Now is not one man show, the problem occur with shang is he is only one person, he can not handle too much customer or review the site, so it has some illegal site to cause whole site down.

What I think is they told me seriously, and My friend also know one or two of them.

But this is still my opinion, what I feel here, sorry for anyone don't like tacid or lahlah

Eiv
06-08-2001, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by mimi
****** say want to help all the site whose hosted by shang, and now not working because of tacidhost down.

it say to setup all the site for them, for the same price which tacid offer $20, it normal price is$59.

it is because l-ahlah also diconnect from tacid, now l-ahlah is the dedicated company to do hosting business, not under tacid already. (last time is reseller of tacid)

they will develop own control panel for all, free.

and it may move the site to others, because same like all here, the domain name "l-ahlah.net" also register by Shang, so if shang change the NS record, then the site can not use already.

this is what l-ahlah.net told me, they setup a account for me already.

I contact eddie@******.net, your can contact him if any question or don't belive they


Since me and many other people all registered their domain and webhosting services through shang. I have checked Whois on L-ahlah.net, which happens to be in the same situation as we are.

BUT WHY IS OUR WEBSITE NOT WORKING AND L-AHLAH.NET IS WORKING PERFECTLY FINE. We all got same name servers. I wonder how and where L-ahlah upload their files? Personally I wouldnt trust l-ahlah.net.
Coz they shouldnt copy each others website in the first place. Copy is wrong in the first place.

Also they are offering the following on their website.

"All TacidHost's Customer Please Click Here, We will setup a New account for your with same prices. ($20)
Limited offer !! All are welcome, faster !! We may close this promotion anytime"


I hope this is not shang trying to cheat same bunch of people twice.

Eiv
06-08-2001, 04:39 AM
By the way why is my IP same as mottymeister. I am not related to him

MagicMMT
06-08-2001, 04:42 AM
FH would have given tacid some warning time?? how come he didn't warn his clients?!?

BC
06-08-2001, 04:46 AM
Please be aware the word "l-ahlah" (without the dash) has now been censored. Thank you for your co-operation.

true
06-08-2001, 05:07 AM
now, they offer free hosting for all the tacid's old customer. it may charge after all the thing is running ok,
same prices ($20)

if someone need it, contact them

I just know the news, and setup my own already.

true
06-08-2001, 05:13 AM
I think your should know who I am talking about

true
06-08-2001, 05:21 AM
so why they still alive and all the site is gone, they alias all the domain to their web site, it is to contact all the old customer from tacid to setup their web site back. if not how your can know or can have a web site again

this is not loss for them.

true
06-08-2001, 06:00 AM
yes, they setup a account for me free,
I can access and upload already , thanks god

faster send a email to them, they will setup free for yours (old tacid's customer)

try it, you will never loose anything

my domain is http://www.yuuna.org

running yes, yeah:bawling:

email to eddie@l..lah.net:cartman:

joshivivek
06-08-2001, 07:58 AM
Nice scam you got running, I wont trust you even if try harder and harder to prove it that lah-lah-lah-lah or whatever it is called wont be another scam in making.

mottymeister
06-08-2001, 08:44 AM
Would like to know how they manage to get my domain name redirected to their service. Considering I changed the DNS yesterday, and are waiting for the change to happen. Is this legal or what!!
Consider this an underhanded practice.
And will this affect my DNS changes, would welcome some comments.
Would'nt touch their service now with a forthy foot pole.
:angry: Not a way to get customers.
la-what-ever-your-la name is:angry:

MCHost-Marc
06-08-2001, 03:37 PM
Hmmmmmm, how comes so many newbie members are all praising l-ahlah.net ?!! Isn't that a little suspicious?

The Laughing Cow
08-23-2001, 11:34 AM
so true :rolleyes: