Ok I know what spam is obviously and we all hate it, heres my question

Im hosting sites for free (sports leagues and such)..

If one of my guys im hosting sends out an e-mail for a guy to check out his site and that guy complains, is that spam and gets your server shut down?

If thats true thats pretty stupid, I always assumed the spammers were MASS e-mailers, not sending one e-mail somebody gets pissy about


Also whats to stop your competitors from telling spam cop you spammed them? I personally think this spam thing is out of control, shutting down peoples servers because of one e-mail is just gay..

And who made spamcop king of the internet? I never signed up for their service

If someone sends someone UNWANTED EMAIL WITH ADVERTISEMENTS IN IT,yes its SPAM,and very much hated!!!

I get plastered with spam,i hate it :angry: I wish there was a way 2 stop it!!

The Dude :angry:

I agree that all those spamcop and similar groups are ridiculous... they are just like vigilantes... killing who they think is the offenders. Unfortunately, that's how the internet works, largely unregulated.

Generally, if it is an unwanted, non-requested email advert, it can be considered spam. Volume isn't the question. However I agree it is ridiculous for it to happen just because of one email.

That's said, there's really nothing you can do about it. In any case, not all ISP uses them. I don't even think a majority of them uses them.

I hate these vigilante groups, but I also accept them as a side effect of the Internet as being like the Wild wild west.

The problem is, now spam is not just adveritsments, but is basically email sent to someone without permission.

Problem is, do you email them first saying do i have permission to email you? But you had no permission to email them that email in the first place...

I dont care about people who write me a mail asking if im interested in something. What i do hate is when i get 18 of the same HGH email every day.

I think its riduculous to be spamming peeps when WE PAY $$$ TO HAVE ISP SERVICE!! Why should we have to deal with these companies crap????? (They cant get any business,so they have to force themselves to try and get business i think) :D

Oh well.......

The Dude :)

My point is....

All anyone has to do is "claim" you spammed them and you are at risk of getting your sever pulled ...that is nuts

I would NEVER start a hosting comapny, I couldnt imagine trying to keep 500 clients on a server from "ever" getting a spam complaint (whether it was legit or not)

<sarcasm>

If I follow this train of thought from SpamCop and others, I guess that would mean everytime I get a Supermarket advertisement in my mailbox I can complain to the Post Office and they will ban the Supermarket from using the Postal Service?

Great idea!

</sarcasm>

How exactly does spamcop work? I didn't see anything on their site explaining it...

First off no one is blocked with any service unles someone subscribes to the service. So SpamCop (or anyone else) can't block you from anyone except their customer base.

Spam IS any unsolicited email.

Actually it is not all that hard to keep your cutomers from doing it. All you need to do is educate them.

From a hosting company perspective our clients get tons of spam. It uses the bandwidth they pay for and we pay for to service the SPAM inbound to the servers and back out via an html web client or POP3 client.

This is different from Bulk Snail Mail Advertising. In that case delivery is paid by the sender end to end. This is not so with email. The SPAM transverses networks and uses services paid for by other people.

I don't believe you need to remove accounts because of spam.

I think initially the correct course of action is education of users. Many users do not realize that spam is ANY unsolicited commercial email and therefore accidentally send out small time spams.

For repeated offenses then yes I would most definitely remove the offending accounts but to begin with I say education is key.

Cheers,
Kevin Lynn

I know this is somewhat OT, but, was looking at one of the many scripting/tools sites and it mentioned a free toy that would take an email address you wish to make accessible on a web page and create a nonsensical string of characters to use in the HTML that would thwart the SPAMmers hunting for email addresses. (sorry I know that sentence is waaaay to long.)

Was just wondering if anyone has played with something like that?

Back on topic, a place to report spammers? HMMM, I need to look into that; I'm tired of getting all the ads for Viagra.

scribe

In that case delivery is paid by the sender end to end. This is not so with email. The SPAM transverses networks and uses services paid for by other people. That may be true initially but you and I pay for it too. Everytime the Postal rates go up as a result of increased volume handling caused by snail mail spamming we are paying for it.

Different...

You are paying to send your letter or whatever. They pay to send their own stuff.

You incur no fee real or imagined if you don't send mail and only recieve mail. This is not the case with email.

But that would be off topic ;)

Generally, if it is an unwanted, non-requested email advert, it can be considered spam. Volume isn't the question
Volume may not be the question but it is indeed the problem!
I don't think reasonable people mind if they get a permission request with no ads in it, if they do, it should be their prob, they should tolerate that only e-mail.
The problem is when you get hundreds of e-mails from the same people, with ads and no previous permission.
It's like when someone in 'real' life begs for money, you can handle a single request, but it's reasonable to get angry at beggars insisting....
I get tons of repetitive e-mails, can't get rid of them before actually downloading them, but occasionally I do get that request that asks for confirmation to accept ads (usually called 'news').
Sorry but I can't completely accept the literal meaning of SPAM as just 'any unsolicited e-mail'!

Spam is universal it seems. It becoming another one of those words that has lost its meaning. Dumb, stupid, retarted, dork, nice, kind are all examples of words that just don't seem to have meanings anymore.

Originally posted by dpshost
Different...

You are paying to send your letter or whatever. They pay to send their own stuff.

You incur no fee real or imagined if you don't send mail and only recieve mail. This is not the case with email.

But that would be off topic ;) Well I disagree but I won't debate the point here, it's off topic..;)

If one of my guys im hosting sends out an e-mail for a guy to check out his site and that guy complains, is that spam and gets your server shut down?

If thats true thats pretty stupid, I always assumed the spammers were MASS e-mailers, not sending one e-mail somebody gets pissy about

Normally a single email will not get your server pulled. Sites like spamcop look at the total amount of email from your server (to their subscribers) and base it on the %. They also do not make any decesion if there is only a couple of emails, that is too small of a sample.


Also whats to stop your competitors from telling spam cop you spammed them? I personally think this spam thing is out of control, shutting down peoples servers because of one e-mail is just gay..

Good to see your professional manner. You are showing your underlying self.

To be reported to spamcop, someone needs to subscribe to spamcops reporting service and then report an actual piece of mail as spam. From my understanding, they do police accounts that feed the system false postives.


And who made spamcop king of the internet? I never signed up for their service


And who said they were king of anything? It is voluntary to use their reporting service and voluntary to use their block list. So it is a choice by others that give them any power, not anything internal to them.

I hardly consider them the best block list, there are many others do you appear on others as well?

Chet

Originally posted by chet

Also whats to stop your competitors from telling spam cop you spammed them? I personally think this spam thing is out of control, shutting down peoples servers because of one e-mail is just gay..


To be reported to spamcop, someone needs to subscribe to spamcops reporting service and then report an actual piece of mail as spam. From my understanding, they do police accounts that feed the system false postives.


Also, one little detail here. You can't say to spamcop www.xxx.com sent me spam. What you do is forward a piece of email that you claim to be spam, then spamcop parses the headers to see where the spam actually originated (and correctly handle the problem of fake/forged headers) and what sites get mentioned in the spam, and then sends out a complaint ON YOUR BEHALF.

For a competitor to use this against you they would have to create an entirely bogus message, get all of the headers right, and still that wouldn't help them because a simple check would show that you didn't send it!

(And while I am on my soap box...) I would remind people that when you talk about SpamCop that they have two very different services - the spam reporting service (discussed above) and the backlisting service (which they describe as not being ready for production use.) And while I can understand people who dislike backlisting services, I fail to understand people who object to a spam reporting service - ESPECIALLY when the spam reporting tool goes to such great lengths to make the correct people get notified and that people faslely accused (because of forged headers, using somebody else's domain name as the sender, email address mentioned in posting, etc.) are NOT reported.

[To be fair and honest, I am not a web hoster/ISP and therefore can not completely appreciate the problems you folks face in dealing with spam complaints. ]

Im sorry Im not professionally enough for you chet, I run a sports site in my spare time im not a webhoster, ill try and sound more professional next time...geez

Thanks for the input from the rest of you guys I was Just worried about somebody doing something down the road...

NFL Insider, give me a break

To quote you on rackshack's forums:
http://forums.rackshack.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15218&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
Screw spam-cop!!!

Who elected these jerks to police the internet?

I hate spam just as much as the next guy but spam cop is a frigging joke!

I know 3 friends personally who got their servers pulled becuase of competitors just faking spam! Its a str8 up joke,

Its getting to the point where all you have to do is fake a spam and get someguys server pulled, gimme a break and spam cop get lost


and now you are posting:
Thanks for the input from the rest of you guys I was Just worried about somebody doing something down the road...

But if you knew these three guys - you wouldn't need to ask these questions right - because you are an authority on the subject, having had 3 people with personal expierence on the topic you are discussing.

So what is it? Ignorant? Lying? What is your real issue with spamcop? From my point of view you sound like someone who got caught spamming and is now making up things bad to say about spamcop.

Chet

Wow your quite the jerk arent you!

Sorry to Dissapoint you I have never been caught spamming...ask my host if you wish...

I just think its a unfair system, and yes I do know guys that have had there servers pulled unjustly at rackshack for it..

Yes, I am a jerk for pointing out the inconsistencies in your posts. Spam is a very real and costly issue, people like you just seem to hope to confuse the matter and attack those voluntary systems currently in place.

And I like your other post about knowing business law and knowing a TOS cannot be enforced. Were you asking that as a question, or as a statement of fact? You seem to like to throw yourself into spam discussions, sometimes as an expert and then when called out, as a person just asking some questions.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm..............

chet

Whatever man....

Originally posted by Watcher_TVI
That may be true initially but you and I pay for it too. Everytime the Postal rates go up as a result of increased volume handling caused by snail mail spamming we are paying for it.

Actually, you've got that backwards. Bulk-rate commercial postal mail subsidises standard postal mail to a large degree.

.

Originally posted by NFLinsider
My point is....

All anyone has to do is "claim" you spammed them and you are at risk of getting your sever pulled ...that is nuts

And also untrue. Anyone who terminates an account solely on the basis of an unsubstantiated spam complaint needs to dump their servers and go back to their job at Kmart. By and large, that is not the way things are done.

.

Originally posted by NFLinsider
I do know guys that have had there servers pulled unjustly at rackshack for it..

I believe another poster on the Rackshack forums asked you to elaborate a little bit on this "unjust server pulling". If you don't want to do it there, would you mind doing it here?


.

This is not true the claim must be substantiated with a copy of the email inluding header information so that we may verify the complaint.

Originally posted by NFLinsider
My point is....

All anyone has to do is "claim" you spammed them and you are at risk of getting your sever pulled ...that is nuts

I would NEVER start a hosting comapny, I couldnt imagine trying to keep 500 clients on a server from "ever" getting a spam complaint (whether it was legit or not)

In all fairness SPAMCOP is no saint as they sent me SPAM to tell me about their service when it launched!

Originally posted by kneadingu
In all fairness SPAMCOP is no saint as they sent me SPAM to tell me about their service when it launched!

It's not spamcop doing the spamming, it's a spammer by the name of Brendan Battles along with some other loser trying to discredit spamcop.

http://spamcop.net/fom-serve/cache/124.html


.

Originally posted by Stomp442
I believe another poster on the Rackshack forums asked you to elaborate a little bit on this "unjust server pulling". If you don't want to do it there, would you mind doing it here?


.

I never had a dedicated server to have unplugged..Theres a few posts by guys that got their servers unplugged by rackschack staff unjustly and they supposedly changed their policy because of it..

I dont need to elaborate you have a web browser, go look

Originally posted by NFLinsider
I never had a dedicated server to have unplugged..Theres a few posts by guys that got their servers unplugged by rackschack staff unjustly and they supposedly changed their policy because of it..

I dont need to elaborate you have a web browser, go look

You said you had "three personal friends" who had their boxes unplugged unjustly. Those are the ones I want to hear about.

If you're not going to stand behind your accusations with some actual evidence, why bother posting at all?

.

Let me guess? Rackshack Employeee?..lol go figure

READ THE FORUMS DUDE! I do not have to prove anything to anyone..wth is wrong with you ?

http://www.rackshack.net there is the link click on forums, do a search and you will find plenty of posts on servers being pulled for unjust reasons...just because rackshack owns these forums, doesnt mean everybody has to kiss their but

I do not have to nor will I give my friends names, addresses, phone numbers, hair color, skin color etc...they are my friends and frankly none of your business...

Sorry for posting about rackshack, I didnt know it was a crime!

uh...anyway

These guys are pulling me totally off the subject.

I talked to a guy that disabled outgoing mail to make sure no one spammed or was accused of it. Has anyone used this method?

For most of us, we are hosts. If we disabled outgoing mail, we will be out of business faster than you can blink.... :D

Some guys do not investigate properly and got hookwink by simple things such as the reply to email address (which of course is easy to fake). This is not unheard of.

Anyway, the issue is that.... nothing can be done. This guys will always try to act whatever they wish.

NFLinsider

It is simple, on this forum and on the rackshack forum you made statements of fact - not asked questions. They were outrageous statements of fact - one email called spam and the server was pulled. And not just one instance - but three of your friends had them pulled!!!

I think that is entirely untrue.

I and others asked you to back up your outrageous claims.

You chose not to and instead tried to say we must be RS employees.

You can say anything you want about any company (RS included), but I think you will find on both forums - people are going to ask you to actually back up your statements, especially when you statements are as negative and as outlandish as your statements were.

These forums are used by adults to be able to research companies and problems. To ask questions about companies. To help make decisions on where to host, what to do, how to behave.

Making up stories because you do not like this or that service will not help the forums or the participants and lurkers of the forums. I think you will find, anytime you make outrageous claims you are going to be asked to prove those claims, so if you insist on making these claims - get used to being asked to back them up.

Chet

Ok...I was going to let it go but you are obviously a rackshack employee so let me get one of the posts in question out for you, you just couldnt let it go could you?

Since you dont know how to use the search feature at rs ill do it for you...and show you how "outlandish" I am

http://forum.rackshack.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19026

Theres one, theres plenty others...do a search yourself im not your slave

I am not an RS employee and I suggest you recant that statement.

Also that is a link to someone who had their server pulled due to trademark violation.

On February 24, 2003 at 09:56 am CST, a notice was sent to the address we have on file for you account. On February 27, 2003 at 09:33 am CST, your server was unplugged from the network. Due to the nature of the complaint because we did not receive a response, we unplugged your server after 3 days of no response from you. After another 24 hours on February 28, 2003 at 14:20 CST, do to no response we terminated the service.

So I still do not see any backing of your outlandish claim. But since you are now claiming I am an RS employee - I guess that gives you another outlandish claim.

For someone who claimed to know "business law" *cough*, you seem to have skipped some parts of the law over the trouble you can get into by stating lies as facts.

You have nothing to back your statements. It seems you are making up stories, so your only course to counter others asking for proof is to make up lies?

Pretty weak.

Chet

What the hell are you talking about man? You got some issues...

Im done with you man, your like some kind of stalker in bad movie

What I am talking about? Your posts. Sorry for actually reading them and responding to the content within them. I understand now, whenever you post, you are just sitting around a virtual campfire telling stories - nothing to see, nothing to read - just some stories.

chet

LOL, you dont happen to own another sports site do you?

Im just trying to figure out why your stalking me...

I am truly done even acknowledging you now..post away

Hello ...

Hope you both are doing ok. I'm sure that both of you wouldn't want this to happen, so actually we're all in the same side. So, let's step back and forget those that may cause this strong argument. I am sure that we all can learn from each other and move on as friends.

Blessings,

Reyner

I am not stalking you. As i said, you made outrageous claims against a company I respect. You refuse to show any proof to your claims and instead just make more and more outlandish claims against me. I am stalking you, i work for RS, i work for a competitior.

You have not once shown any proof to your claims about rackshack pulling a server because of one piece of spam. You made that statement not me - heck, you even said you knew not one person but three people this happened to.

Rey, i am not on the same side as this person. I am on the side that believes in not making up lies about a company.

Chet

It is a simple concept...



As a host if you get a complaint investigate it and take appropriate action. Inform all parties of said action.

Make sure your TOS/AUP clearly states your policy and require reading it. I know that doesn't mean people will always actually read it.

That is the best you can do.

Originally posted by NFLinsider
http://forum.rackshack.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19026

Theres one, theres plenty others...do a search yourself im not your slave

Oh, you mean the thread where the guy violated Rackshack's AUP, failed to respond to warning emails from Rackshack for approximately six days, and then ultimately had his server pulled?

You're joking, right?


.:rolleyes:

What reason would I have to lie about a dedciated company? Im not even in the webhosting business..lol

You guys got me, its all lies...Rackshack is awesome I love them...Hail to rackshack!....Glory to rackshack...

I don't know if I am off topic right now but as the topic concerns spam, I couldn't resist asking this question.

Is an e-card / postcard script considered spam? I have a special interest in this issue because I had it on my current site. The idea is very simple: a visitor chooses a picture, adds a personal message and sends it to a friend or family member. The receiver receives an e-mail with the url where to pick up the card.

My current host accused me of spamming, but I doubt that because some large, well respected websites offer the same services (like hallmark.com). They said the script was a low-frequent mass mailer ('low-frequent on purpose, to keep a low profile') that spammed e-mail adresses from a database (it is a postcard script from www.giombetti.com). I tried to convince them otherwise but they were not open for any discussion. I finally had to remove the script otherwise the account was terminated.

I can understand where they are coming from (partially) but the whole issue gave me a bad taste in my mouth regarding my host:

- they suspended the account but only notified me about it on the suspended e-mail account: I could not read the notification, neither could I respond. I had to find it out myself, by sending them a support ticket.
- they accused me of lying. I honestly never ever thought about the e-card script (they never communicated it with me after I send them a support ticket, they did communicate it in the e-mail to my suspended account) and suggested the problem was caused by forged headers (suggested, hoping they would investigate it). Well ... after I had said that ... they suspended the account for the second time again. Allthough I mentioned it as a suggestion ... they accused me of claiming it as a fact.
- I have two domains hosted there ... they suspended both allthough only one domain was involved in this issue. My whole personal domain, meant for personal e-mail traffic, was down.

Really would like your opinion about this. Even if they are in their right ... I can't approve the way they handled the situation. I will switch to a new host as soon as I have found one.

Also, like to have the opinion of webhosts regarding e-card/postcard scripts: do you see it as spam or not?

I am sure that's not spam. If you send a card, it's from someone to another, as a gift. How can it be spam? :confused:

Well, my current host considered it spam. They say they researched the script I was using from Giombetti.com (http://www.giombetti.com/site/index.php) and concluded it was a mass mailer, sending out e-mail on a low frequent basis to avoid being detected. Isn't it just a built in security to prevent a cpu overload? They also didn't see an opt-in/opt-out function ... how is it possible that a webhost even can make this remark ... I mean ... opt-in/opt-out for an e-card system :confused:

Anyway, they forced me to remove it. I want the service back though as visitors really like it. Just want to be sure the same thing won't happen to me again when hosted by a different company.

Originally posted by Neppie
Anyway, they forced me to remove it. I want the service back though as visitors really like it. Just want to be sure the same thing won't happen to me again when hosted by a different company.

I wouldn't allow it either, although for different reasons.

Any system that allows anonymous sending of email - even something as seemingly innocuous as a postcard - is highly abusable. The script in question doesn't even do so much as verify that the address in the "from" field resolves to a valid domain, nor does it appear to do any sort of logging of the sender's IP.

.

Well, ip logging is overrated, in my opinion. Most people do not have a fixed ip (even those with cable connections don't have that). You can't do anything with it (well, if you combine it with a time stamp, an ISP can probably find out who used it at that time, they will not cooperate though unless they are forced by law).

Also, checking whether an e-mail adress is from a valid domain or not :rolleyes: Should everything be controlled that much? Highways have speed limits but still ... a car can drive twice that speed ... do they make cars with a speed limitation??? There is something like the responsiblity from the user. Internet is a great medium but like any other medium, it has it advantages and disadvantages. It's not like the script was mailing 1000's of people every day ... in 6 months, 1500 people sent a postcard.

Originally posted by Neppie
Also, checking whether an e-mail adress is from a valid domain or not :rolleyes: Should everything be controlled that much?
There was a point in time when the internet operated in a much more cooperative and trusting manner than it is now. Such currently taboo things as open relays were the norm. Then came the spammers, and everything - and I do mean everything - had to be locked down tight.

To your point, checking whether the originating domain is valid or not is not exerting excessive control, not by a longshot. Sendmail, by default, rejects email from domains that do not resolve as a spam prevention measure.

<bad anology about cars and speed limits snipped>

There is something like the responsiblity from the user.
What user, the person who sends the postcard? The reason we're even having this discussion is because it's been proven time and time again that people aren't responsible, and will abuse free resources like your postcard script if there aren't at least a minimal amount of checks and balances built in.

As a hosting provider, it's my responsibility to ensure that any software installed on my servers does not facilitate spamming in any way, shape, or form. Your script does. That it does it at a low volume doesn't make it any less abusable.

There are many postcard scripts out there that I (and probably your current provider as well) would allow without question, because they do have a reasonable amount of security features built-in. hotscripts.com has loads of 'em, although a good-quality postcard script might set you back a few bucks. But, as they say, anything worth doing is worth doing right.


.

If you do not have a remove function to block someone from receiving emails in your postcard script - then it could be abused. But unless it was abused, your host sure is acting wacky and foolishly.

Chet

Originally posted by Stomp442
There are many postcard scripts out there that I (and probably your current provider as well) would allow without question, because they do have a reasonable amount of security features built-in. hotscripts.com has loads of 'em, although a good-quality postcard script might set you back a few bucks. But, as they say, anything worth doing is worth doing right.[/B]

First of all, mine came from hotscripts.com. I preffered this one because it was a simple script. Easy to use, fast and not using a lot of resources. However, I understand your point. It is your choice as a host to ban certain kind of software or scripts. That is your task as a host, to ensure the stability of a server. If my current host would have asked me to switch to a different one, I would have done that immediately. Instead they suspended the account and were not open to any discussion at all. I also asked them if e-card systems were allowed, I never ever received an answer to that.

As said, I did not make the decision to change hosts because of the script, I made the decision because of the way they treated me. Educate your clients ... people learn from their mistakes!