We were with Dialtone internet for about 2 years. They started billing us big traffic usages after a few months.

In one month, they billed us over $700 for traffic, that amounts to more than 250GB of data transfer. However, from our web log, we can only see less than half of that amount. We questioned DI, their billing people forwarded to their VP. Their VP replied the number is big, because of other stuff, such as FTP and mail. But we did't have FTP services, only HTTP. Mail was another source of traffic.

A few months passed by, we keep getting the same big bill, which we could not consolidate with our web logs. We wanted to move out to another provider, but due to the technical complexities, we were slow on doing that. Then we decided to shutdown most of our mail servers for a month. We got the same big bill.

Finally, we got serous and sent an email with a much tougher tone and asked them to provide a detailed traffic log. Their billing people response was immediate: she promised it would not happen again. And we got about $500 back for that month.

If anyone has similar experience, please follow up.

Originally posted by Web Master 2
We were with Dialtone internet for about 2 years. They started billing us big traffic usages after a few months.

In one month, they billed us over $700 for traffic, that amounts to more than 250GB of data transfer. However, from our web log, we can only see less than half of that amount. We questioned DI, their billing people forwarded to their VP. Their VP replied the number is big, because of other stuff, such as FTP and mail. But we did't have FTP services, only HTTP. Mail was another source of traffic.

A few months passed by, we keep getting the same big bill, which we could not consolidate with our web logs. We wanted to move out to another provider, but due to the technical complexities, we were slow on doing that. Then we decided to shutdown most of our mail servers for a month. We got the same big bill.

Finally, we got serous and sent an email with a much tougher tone and asked them to provide a detailed traffic log. Their billing people response was immediate: she promised it would not happen again. And we got about $500 back for that month.

If anyone has similar experience, please follow up.

I've found their bandwidth billing to be very accurate. It's never been a surprise either, since you have access to real-time daily and weekly bandwidth charts...

Did your charts not show these usages?

Originally posted by JG


I've found their bandwidth billing to be very accurate. It's never been a surprise either, since you have access to real-time daily and weekly bandwidth charts...

Did your charts not show these usages?

Well, they can show a chart.
But did you try to compare the data with your Web log?

if they did over charge you that should have been your first clue to finding a better host also to systematically over charge could be considered fraud if you can prove they did it intentionally
deeboy

Bandwidth can accumlate quite rapidly from denial of service attacks on essential TCP services such DNS (named) and the telnet port, also someone could be dos'ing your http service in a way it is not logging (heh, exploits are being discovered all the time, is it the latest apache?). Also once a user has a shell account or even php-enabled he can download/upload (via lynx,ftp or php sockets) any big file, and this won't be logged. ICMP and UDP packets can also eat up bandwidth. The only way to match your apache logs (presuming logging of inbound and outboud) and your server's MRTG graph is if you firewall all traffic except tcp port 80 inbound/outbound. Even this will not be completely accurate but should be with +-15%.

Also have you switched our billing method from 95% to 'average transfer' (as they now allowed) if you haven't then you are throwing money away and taking a great risk. A small spike in traffic could cause you to be billed at that rate for the whole month (minus 5%)

When comparing "raw" (eg, mrtg) bandwidth to weblogs, consider the following:
1. TCP/IP headers are included in the IP bandwidth. This will add approximately 240 bytes plus 5% of the size of the transfered file. (120+2.5% upstream,120+2.5% downstream).
2. HTTP request and headers are included in the IP bandwidth. This will add somewhere around 750 bytes per request (500 upstream, 250 downstream).
3. CGI response inefficiencies. Slow CGI scripts (generally, this means scripts which produce less than 3KB/s of output) will incur greater IP overheads due to TCP's attempt to avoid delaying data for more than half a second.
4. TCP retransmissions. This shouldn't be a big issue, but on congested networks TCP retransmissions could increase the IP bandwidth significantly.

If you have a large number of requests for small files, it is quite possible that the IP bandwidth will be double the actual HTTP bytes_transferred. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case here, but you should definitely consider the possibility before you start accusing anyone of fraud.

Excellent point cperciva...

It is rather strange that they gave back $500 though.

Web Master 2, what was their reasoning, did they say their was an error?

Originally posted by JG
It is rather strange that they gave back $500 though.

Web Master 2, what was their reasoning, did they say their was an error?

It's just a guess, but I'd say that they just decided to play it safe... I mean, there *might* have been a problem in their accounting code, and they were faced with an obviously angry customer... easier to fork over $500 than to argue and probably lose a customer.

Web master 2 is on a roll,.. ))))

Dialtone used to bill using 95% percentile, so that could be the reason. Also your web logs are always going to be different than your MRTG logs, which is what Dialtone provides. MRTG process all of the traffic, ftp, http, mail, nonftp, streams, and attacks, everything that runs to your port. Web logs just process http.

When I switch to average usage from 95% percentile they didn't do it in the month I requested and because of that I was over billed and I escalated to their billing managers and they credited my act for the difference.

If you were billed by 95%percentile that could be why and that is why maybe you spike and got affected, who knows.

Romero

In http://webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11728&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

If you read Romero's post, he mentioned that Dialtone offered 3 months to us for the damage of our data.

How does he/she know this? I never said that in my previous posts. But, that was indeed dialtone's offer, which we rejected.

How could Romero know Dialtone offered 3 months as compensation???!!!

I am totally disgusted now.

I request moderator to release the IP of Romero.

Since he/she is posting bad messages about other dedicated hosts, this could be a very bad thing.

Originally posted by JG
It is rather strange that they gave back $500 though.

what was their reasoning, did they say their was an error?

It is neither strange nor necessarily an error. Ask Jaguar. He was fuming and ranting about the 95th percentile system and DI last year. They gave him a one time credit to ease the crunch he was feeling. Shortly after that, they offered bandwidth shaping to contain costs. They later offered average usage as an optional measuring method and I believe that new accounts all use it.

A credit is not an admission of having made a mistake. It can simply be a simple way to assuage an irate customer and keep them for the long run. In this case it worked as Jag still has servers at DI and seems to be quite pleased with them overall. From a certain perspective, it was smart of DI to give him that credit and respond to his needs.



-------------------
Paranoia strikes deep,
into your minds it will creep

Buffalo Springflield

Web Master 2, how many people are you going to accuse of being DI employees? You've already accused Duster and Madman2020 of being affiliated with DI, now you're accusing Romero... who are you next going to unmask?

Look at romero's profile, he doesn't have a birthday!!!!!!!!!!! Strange!

Oops, neither do I. Oh well, I don't work there! Hell yes!

Wow, it's way to late!

Anyways, I can understand your frustration Web Master 2, but you should have stopped along time ago. We got your point, now you're letting everyone make you look bad by arguing with them, instead of DI who is the real enemy.

It's hard to win when everyone's against you.

Oh, BTW why haven't you given us the name of your web site, you never mention the name, but once you just put xxxxxxx.net?

Jonathan P.
Owner/Webmaster
http://www.yeswebmaster.com

You cperciva you're next. Who's your daddy and what does he do? And where do you live and work?

Just kidding :)

Duster, you're correct that there's nothing strange about a credit in order to keep a customer for the long run. However, I was referring to this statement:

Their billing people response was immediate: she promised it would not happen again.
She promised what would not happen again? There's an obvious admission of some sort of error in that statement.

Originally posted by cperciva
Web Master 2, how many people are you going to accuse of being DI employees? You've already accused Duster and Madman2020 of being affiliated with DI, now you're accusing Romero... who are you next going to unmask?

All I can say to this is...

...lol :D

Originally posted by cperciva
Web Master 2, how many people are you going to accuse of being DI employees? You've already accused Duster and Madman2020 of being affiliated with DI, now you're accusing Romero... who are you next going to unmask?

When did I accuse them being affiliated with DI?

I pointed out that they live close to Dialtone, that was different from accusing them.

There were two posters who were defending Dialtone, the rest are not, both defenders live close to that company. I can trust their words and believe that they are not related to DI, if they say they don't even have friends at Dialtone, I will believe it too, but that does not mean their posts are not biased. People can't make their own judgements from the postings.

As for Romero, I am quite certain he/she is from or closely related to Dialtone, he/she knew things that I never posted on the forum.

Originally posted by yeswebmaster
Look at romero's profile, he doesn't have a birthday!!!!!!!!!!! Strange!


Anyways, I can understand your frustration Web Master 2, but you should have stopped along time ago. We got your point, now you're letting everyone make you look bad by arguing with them, instead of DI who is the real enemy.

It's hard to win when everyone's against you.

http://www.yeswebmaster.com

You know, the two guys madman2020 and romero posted a LOT of messages against myself, they created an impression that everyone is against me. But they are not everyone. There were over a dozen posters, only a small gang of 2-3 are on dialtone's side. The majority of the people can see thru this clearly.

Originally posted by JG
Excellent point cperciva...

It is rather strange that they gave back $500 though.

Web Master 2, what was their reasoning, did they say their was an error?

They kept billing us big amounts for months, we couldn't reconcile the numbers, we questioned this a couple of times, their reply was "Server logs only account for web data. .... Please remember any external connection to your server via the network adds bandwidth, i.e., mail, DNS, ftp, pop. This is not included in the server logs."

Since we have mail running, we can't be sure that there was something wrong. So we decided to shutdown most of mail traffic, one month went by, still big bill, another month, almost no change, our web log only showed a fraction of the 250GB transfer they billed us. So we sent an email (in no way an angry one) asking them to explain this.

We got immediate repsonse from their billing people that they would refund the amount in full and she said that she promise it would never happen again.

Note, this was almost $700 total (we had two sites), and she decided to refund immediately. When dialtone internet wiped out our hard drive (we were very upset then), they refused to pay a penny, they only offered 3 months of service (which worth about $600 if we did use it) after consulting their VP. Previously, we argued with their VP and unable to get to $40 back service fee back due to changes in hardware. We knew them to be unfriendly people.

Later, they did make a refund, not the full $600 plus, but $400+ for one server and $90+ for the other.

We could have pursued this further but were too busy on other things.

Originally posted by cperciva
....

If you have a large number of requests for small files, it is quite possible that the IP bandwidth will be double the actual HTTP bytes_transferred. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case here, but you should definitely consider the possibility before you start accusing anyone of fraud.

Of course we knew these. But the diffrence could not be explained by these. There was a 3-4 fold discprency.

The average size of transfer on our site was about 10K bytes. It was impossible to reconcile the numbers with HTTP.

Originally posted by Web Master 2


When did I accuse them being affiliated with DI?

I pointed out that they live close to Dialtone, that was different from accusing them.
You didn't state it overtly, though you did insinuate it a few times

There were two posters who were defending Dialtone, the rest are not, both defenders live close to that company.
Where is that defense? Something else in your imagination, like DI's "attempt" to close down another discussion? In light of your earlier comments, you are insinuating once again that we are connected to DI. Else, why even mention that we live in the general area? I wouldn't consider them close, considering they are in the next county and considerably inland, though that could be a relative thing.

You hide behind smarmy comments and don't have the guts to come right out and say it or the intelligence to know why you're wrong.

I can trust their words and believe that they are not related to DI, if they say they don't even have friends at Dialtone, I will believe it too, but that does not mean their posts are not biased. People can't make their own judgements from the postings.
You're right. People will make their own judgments. Clearly my comments are biased in favor of using good sense and taking responsibilty for your data. You seem to be opposed to that.



-------------------
Paranoia strikes deep,
into your minds it will creep

Buffalo Springflield

OK, back to whatever the point of the thread is please.

>>>>>>>

From web master 2:

If you read Romero's post, he mentioned that Dialtone offered 3 months to us for the damage of our data.

How does he/she know this? I never said that in my previous posts. But, that was indeed dialtone's offer, which we rejected.

How could Romero know Dialtone offered 3 months as compensation???!!!

I am totally disgusted now.

I request moderator to release the IP of Romero.

>>>>>>>


Web master2,

I think the way you behave makes me thing you are just trying to justify your mistakes. I have been accused of been employee of DI and also of DN before. I happen to like and support both companies Dialtone and Digital Nation and I happen to host with both.

I saw in your post from you or some one else StephenRS than mentioned 2 or 3 or 4 months. In fact it really doesn't matter is my mistake. However, how come you mentioned from the first post on your =no backups= issue that they =DI= offer you one month. I think that is already one lie we caught you.

If you want to email me off the list I can talk to you personally, I can call you and give you our sites and all. My email is: tonyromero@yahoo.com

As far as me, I am done with this thread also. Romero

Originally posted by Web Master 2


You know, the two guys madman2020 and romero posted a LOT of messages against myself, they created an impression that everyone is against me. But they are not everyone. There were over a dozen posters, only a small gang of 2-3 are on dialtone's side. The majority of the people can see thru this clearly.

Wow, are you reaching. It is all just a conspiracy against you. You figured it out. I will make sure to give you "me pot of gold".

No one here (I assume) is qualified to help WM with his problems. While I know a great deal about psychoanalysis and neuroses, I am not licensed in that capacity.

seems to me that you guys have taken this personal! it should not be. IMHO. if you was/are a host you would not be for long. who here would TRUST (and this is key) your server/data with a company that made the miscues they seem to or are accused of making. if you say that you would, you must be either lying or not a smart businessmen. time is money and it takes time to rebuild a site and it's data. so in short if you want to reap the rewards of being a host then you must also accept the responsibilities. you speak of taking responsibility but you are biased in whom you apply this rule to.
ATTN HOST & FUTURE HOST: if you dont know what you are doing then take the time to learn from this and do alot of reading or choose another line of work!
just my 2 cents!
deeboy

Originally posted by Chicken
OK, back to whatever the point of the thread is please.

... or we could just continue on and on and on.

Thread closed.