Hello,

As many of you already know, I am working for a company named "Can-Host Networks". We recently had a call from a company named "CanHost", found at the domain: www.canhost.ca (http://www.canhost.ca) about the similar name and they are tying to basically rip our name off.

Now, my question here may not be at the best place, but I figured the answers will help other people as well. Here it goes...

How can you find out EVERY information about a web hosting company? Here, I mean:
-Review
-Comments
-Corporation info
-Anything related to a company

I already know of hostinvestigator and deja.com (both gave 0 results) and I am looking for more info.

My second question is... is it possible, in your opinion, to win a lawsuit over a SIMILAR name (not the same)? If so, what is the worst thing that can happen, beside spending thousands of dollars on it?

Also, is it possible for a relatively big corporation to have NO reviews anywhere that I can think of?

Thanks, I appreciate your help on that matter. I believe that this information we can give out here will be usefull for any other web host / client out there that wish to know more about what happens when such a case occure.

(edited add-on) NOTE: we are not the one trying to win anything, we are the one treatened by canhost.ca. I am sorry that was not clear :I

------------------
[Félix C.Courtemanche | Web Designer]
[Head Designer | Co-Admin]
[webmaster@can-host.com]
[Can-Host Networks | http://can-host.com ]

[This message has been edited by Félix C.Courtemanche (edited 06-19-2000).]

If you win a lawsuit over them, it will be a landmark case, and to honest I don't think you deserve to win, it would create so many problems. Hostingsolutions.com would sue hostingsolutions.net. Webhosting.com would sue webhosting.net and webhosting.co.uk etc...

Firstly the domains are different can-host.com and canhost.ca (different country and the - between can and host).

CanHost.Ca seems to be reputable company and I doubt they even know you exist, when checking for other domains they might have checked canhost.com but not can-host.com, you have no case against them.

Secondly you don't own a trademark on the domain (according to search anyway) and you certainly don't own a worldwide trademark on the name. AND even if you did you'd have a lot of trouble getting the domain since you seem to be trading as CanHostNetworks.

How can you honestly expect to have rights to that domain?

Sorry for sounding harsh but it's just common sense.

Silly, silly, silly!! :P

This doesn't sound like a lawsuit you could ever win, nor do you deserve to win it!

Besides, they registered the domain name before you... So following your logic, they should be able to sue you, eh? :)

You missed the point here...
canhost.ca is suing can-host.com because of name similarities.

they are big, we are small, they got lawyers and we don't.
they are called CanHost and we are called Can-Host Networks. We never heard of them before, and I guess they found us because we are the first ranked on search engines usually when you type in "canhost".

We are not the "bad" guys here... we are the one being treatened.

------------------
[Félix C.Courtemanche | Web Designer]
[Head Designer | Co-Admin]
[webmaster@can-host.com]
[Can-Host Networks | http://can-host.com ]

Additionnaly, when they called us today to let us know that if we didnt gave them our names (can-host.com and can-host.org... can-host.net is owned by someone else) they would do what they are doing to canhost.com... take us to court. canhost.net and canhost.org left their domain to them and really we are NOT going to give them our domains without anything. Their "big and reputable" company has its main domain registerd since september 1999... we are since november 1999... 2 months older than us as you can see.

I wish to appologize if my stuff seems to be at the wrong place here, but I guess that you know how I can feel. Things starts to go well and suddenly you are being treatened, someone wants to 'steal' your domains and traffic... It is hard to stay positive.

My previous questions still stands.
How do you check info on a company??

------------------
[Félix C.Courtemanche | Web Designer]
[Head Designer | Co-Admin]
[webmaster@can-host.com]
[Can-Host Networks | http://can-host.com ]

How interesting. Two month difference between registration. When I do various searches, they come up first - every time. In fact, on a couple of Canadian listings that my searches brought back, can-host is not listed at all; canhost is.

Being the obstinate person I am, and given the fact that their name comes up so prevalently on searches, I would not be inclined to roll over. However, you have to think this through: given the nature of such things in Canada, and the cost that you will incur as a result, it must be worth the fight. It's interesting that they've chosen to act in this manner, with the things that I found on a cursory search. And to be honest, I never heard of you until you posted to this board - and I never heard of them until you posted this. What they don't seem to realize is that there are (literally) thousands of hosting companies, many with similar names. Many of those, however, were not registered within two months of each other, with one coming up so often at the top of searches.

Now, about finding information. I note from canhost.ca's whois that they are a "for profit corporation, federally incorporated", etc. - if the rules are similar north of the border to those here, there are going to be filings (incorporation, tax filings), which are all public record. If you have anyone with some legal research experience, or a friendly lawyer, you can get that information pretty cheaply.

Good luck - keep up posted, if you're able.



------------------
Annette
Hosting Matters, Inc.
http://www.hostmatters.com

I just wanted to add that we *never* heard of them before. We are not even offering the same type of services either... They seems to be more co-location and dedicated oriented and we are more on web hosting.

Anette, could you give me the canadian listing you mentionned? I looked around and really I can't find anything.

After talking to our investors, accountant and lawyer friends, we came up with the worst thing that can happen to us if they win: They can get all the profits we made off this since we exist...

How great. I really like laws like this. You look like someone? watch out, he might sue you and get the cash from your job (who knows)

Oh well... We definately won't kneel in front of them for this. If they really wish to loose their money for getting our name (wich is definately as good for us as them) so be it. They are a corporation, but we have our business name registered and unless this registration means absolutely nothing (then why bother registering?) I don't wee why they would win over this...

Well I hope.

Let me remind again that I am looking for some ways to find out more about this (canhost.ca) company, from internet if possible.

Thanks and sorry to bother you with this :I


------------------
[Félix C.Courtemanche | Web Designer]
[Head Designer | Co-Admin]
[webmaster@can-host.com]
[Can-Host Networks | http://can-host.com ]

Felix,

I will say this much : if they pursue legal action and win (and I'm not sure if any court would declare in its favor, but stranger things have happened), then not only would it be a legal landmark case, but set the way for every single other company/domain to claim its associated net names (see Admin's post). I really don't think it will happen, but you never know.

However, there is a way out...
What you can do is to take your case to ICANN, the organisation responsible for handling domain name disputes. What you essentially need to do is to prove to ICANN that you have a claim to holding the can-host.com domain (through whatever legal papers you have) and that you were never intending to 'emulate' (and had never heard of) canhost.ca. Conversely, Canhost.ca would need to state why they are trying to rip your name off, and if you can prove your case to ICANN then their legal action technically has to stop. ICANN's authority is world wide, so canhost.ca *must* answer their claim.

Actually, I'm surprised that canhost.ca has threatened legal action instead of going to ICANN - I wonder if they don't know about ICANN, or they have a more sinister agenda?

I think this is the best way out for you and I suggest you give it all you can to stop them.

The URL is : http://www.icann.org/udrp/udrp.htm

Also, see Duster's post below. Duster is correct in that only global corporations would stand to have a proper claim on domain names. So ICANN is the way to go.

The very best of luck Felix! Keep me posted, or e-mail me and I'll give you as much help as I can (my e-mail's in my profile)

[This message has been edited by BC (edited 06-19-2000).]

Felix,

I've researched the subject somewhat, along with other legal issues regarding the Internet (libel, etc.) I've had to defend against infringement, including on my business name (my scuba diving site, not my server business). I made sure I knew what legal ground I was standing on, and I'm familiar with U.S. copyright law as it applies to web and net related issues. I'm not an attorney, so this is not a legal opinion, though I have read several cases and the reasoning and ruling of the judges, along with relevant U.S. law.

Although it will cost you to defend yourselves, they don't stand much of a chance of winning. Here's why:

A domain name is not necessarily representative of the corporate name. It can be, but isn't always. As you have pointed out, there is a difference in your corporate names, and Can-Host Networks in the U.S. is clearly not CanHost in Canada.

Their name would have to be well known as a unique global identity in order to make a case for real infringement. For example, Coca Cola is an established worldwide identity. If anyone had a domain name that was some variant of it, coca_cola.net for instance, Coca Cola could easily prove infringement. That would probably apply in other countries also, such as coca-cola.ca, coca-cola.de, etc. Of course, the corporation has affilates and bottlers world wide, so that helps.

The same would not hold true for variations of "coke" as it is a diminutive espression and there are generic products by that name (like coke used in smelting). To prove infringement on the name "Coke", the domain using it would likely have to be related to soft drinks.

It's too bad that other CanHost has such an inflated opinion of their name, as your company will have to pay for it. There are more productive ways they could make sure their name stands for something worthwhile.

Be sure to let us know how it turns out.

[This message has been edited by Duster (edited 06-20-2000).]

GOOD LUCK FELIX ! ! !
This may not be very helpful but the best of luck to you and your company, please Keep the board posted...

Good Luck
Dominic Buono
sales@unixfusion.com

I didn't mention ICANN's Universal Dispute Policy, though I know it, because I don't think you'll find it helpful. However, you should be aware of it and what they require. Here is the link.
http://www.icann.org/udrp/udrp.htm

Felix -

Here's a couple of examples (these links may wrap): http://www.alcanseek.com/computersinternet/websitehosting.htm
http://www.go.com/WebDir/Internet/Site_administration/Domain_names/Domain_name_registration
http://dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/Commercial_Services/Web_Hosting/C/



------------------
Annette
Hosting Matters, Inc.
http://www.hostmatters.com

Duster, you think so? ICANN has been successful in getting domain names for companies back and throwing cybersquatters out here in Australia, so they have shown they can do something about it...

Update

From our last research, we discovered that CanHost does not own a trademark on their name. We think that this will greatly help in this case... and on that matter, anyone should register a trademark on their name (we will) as well as copyright their web site... Well you don't have to, but if you don't, you can get stuff like what is happening to us.

I beleive that the major thing canhost.ca was counting on was fear. I hardly see why anyone would do that... We are not doing anything against us, removing our name will not stop us from doing our business and even if we disapear, that won't give them any more customers either.

I'm quite impressed with the mentality of the majority of the businesses now... "I am bored... lets treaten and sue someone".

*sigh*
At least, I now think we have the tools to defend ourselves if they wish to comes to that, we will do it.

What bugs me the most on this... is that they did it before and will probably do it again.
From what I have seen, they own the domains:

http://www.canhost.ca
http://www.canhost.net
http://www.canhost.org
http://www.hosting-uk.com
http://www.webhostingcanada.net
http://www.hostingcanada.net
http://www.canadawebhosting.net

Anyone with a name looking like this... watch yourself out. :) This may be a bluff, but I would rather live without this kind of thing!

By the way, thank you Annette for the links...
and Thanks to everyone, your help & support is really appreciated

------------------
[Félix C.Courtemanche | Web Designer]
[Head Designer | Co-Admin]
[webmaster@can-host.com]
[Can-Host Networks | http://can-host.com ]

[This message has been edited by Félix C.Courtemanche (edited 06-19-2000).]

Knowledge is power. When you know your stuff, no one can intimidate you. Even attorney letters are laughable in many cases. I used to respond to them for my department in another line of work years ago and only once did I ever hear from one again (no, he didn't get anywhere either). Most of them were so incredibly stupid that it was fun answering them and pointing it out, in a gentle way.

BC, it's not that I don't think ICANN can't help, it's just that it depends on the circumstances. I don't believe they would be able to help in this particular case, though I could be mistaken. Cybersquatting generally refers to those who have registered a name they have no real right to. It differs from disputes over a common name , i.e., two legitimate companies with similar names.

Cybersquatters are also generally domain name scalpers, a term I think better describes them.

Originally posted by Duster:
BC, it's not that I don't think ICANN can't help, it's just that it depends on the circumstances. I don't believe they would be able to help in this particular case, though I could be mistaken. Cybersquatting generally refers to those who have registered a name they have no real right to. It differs from disputes over a common name , i.e., two legitimate companies with similar names.


Point taken.

Case closed. ;)

Hi,
I do not know if this helps, but I work for Key Bank and there has been a case I think 2 or three years back when a company (bank actually) registered a domain name www.keybank.fr (http://www.keybank.fr) or some other country extension. Key Bank filled a law suit and won becuase the ICANN ruled that domain name was representing a corporation. Our domain was not copyrighted nor registered as a trademark. I have heard from a friend who lives (He is a lawyer) that by Canadian laws domain name is considered representing a company if a domain name is the same name as registered corporation. In your case they do have a case because can-host.com and canhost.ca represent part of the registered corporation name so they may sue you. I suggest you contact ICANN and also to make them less aggressive towards you, file a counter suite against them. It would surely cool them domn and sue for their name stating that they taking away your customers and their domain name represents your company. Also team up with other companies that they are sueing and make one big countersuite. I'm not sure on legal stuff, but I hope it helps.


------------------
Sincerely,
Vlad Gil

[This message has been edited by Vlad Gil (edited 06-20-2000).]

Hi,

First of all, although i do not believe that your working for this company. But what i think is you own this company. Also your company is not doing business legally. What i mean is you do not have a legal business name to do business. If you have a legal business name with the same name e.g Can Host Network, LLC,etc you are able to own this domain name can-host.com as far as i know off. Therefore you may have to decide on whether you would like to fight this case, or change anther domain name. This time with a legal business name to have your butt cover :)

Maybe i am wrong in some part, please correct me.

Vlad,

Not all situations are the same. The case you cited with your employer is not the same as the problem Can-Host Networks is having. Yours was a clear cut case of infringement by a cybersquatter/scalper as the corporate name and domain name are the same, and is likely a unique name (banks tend to make sure no other bank has the same name if unaffiliated). It is the Coca-Cola in my earlier example.

The case with Can Hosts is different. It is about two legitimate businesses with similar names arguing over variations in the domain name. There is a world of difference between the two cases and they are not at all alike

ICANN can be most helpful with the former, though it lets the courts decide the latter in most cases (unless it is clear from corporate filings and other conditions that one company has clear rights to the name).



[This message has been edited by Duster (edited 06-20-2000).]

Gordon,

Since you asked, I'll tell you why you are wrong. You're making an assumption that one must be either a corporation or limited liability corporation in order to have legal claim to a name. That is is a false premise.

There are reasons for incorporating, from isolating personal assets and responsibility from corporate ones, to tax issues. However, it is not absolutely necessary in order to have a valid claim to a domain name. It might make it stronger in some cases, but can stand on its own in many.

All that is required by some states (like Florida) is that you register your fictitious name (dba) with the department of corporations after publishing it in the fictitious names section of a newspaper in the county of business, or residence where there is no storefront (as with Internet only sites).

With a sufficciently distinctive business name, and establishing it before any claim jumpers show up, it is just as valid without incorporation as with. Check U.S. Copyright law. I have.

Now, what incorporation does (aside from anything else), is make it easier and faster to prove one's claim to the name, and often cheaper, in the case of a dispute.

It emphasizes the need to choose one's business name very carefully. Doing so can mean not having to register .net and .org along with all the country domains in order to prevent encroachment. You don't have to be concerned about the top level domain if no one can use the domain name in any fashion.


[This message has been edited by Duster (edited 06-20-2000).]

My advice to anyone who gets a "call" or "email" is to wait until an official legal document arrives instructing you to cease using the name. Anyone can call, or email you. Any lawyer can send a threatening (sounding) letter, but it is this that matters.

That is not to say you shouldn't investigate the situation and consult your lawyer so you'll be ready if this happens.

Your first post read as if your trying to sue them, sorry for the mix up. Don't give up your domain whatever you do!!! They don't have a US trademark on the name so you can trade as CanHost. Don't worry about lawyers into they actually give you a court date, only then consider settling.

Hello,
Let me answer to these questions first:
Originally posted by Gordon:
First of all, although i do not believe that your working for this company. But what i think is you own this company.
If you do a 'little' research, you would notice that my IP is 24.201.55.99, wich resolve in Canada, Québec, (videotron.com) and the IP of Jason Berresford, the owner of this company, is 24.215.27.71 wich resolves to Ontario, Canada (MountainCablevision). If you do a bit more research, you will find out that MCV is also the company providing us with bandwidth. Even more, I can provide you with our 2 phone number... If you call me you may have some problems understanding what I say because I am a French-Canadian.
Jason Berresford: 1 (905) 765-8140
Félix C.Courtemanche: 1 (819) 565-4023
Furthermore, if this still doesn't convince you, you can take a look at our web site's (legal) canada copyright: http://www.can-host.com/copyright.jpg

No, I didn't make this thing up... Why would lie about this?? If you need any further information, it will be transmitted by e-mail because I feel this is private information.

Also your company is not doing business legally. What i mean is you do not have a legal business name to do business. If you have a legal business name with the same name e.g Can Host Network, LLC,etc you are able to own this domain name can-host.com as far as i know off. Therefore you may have to decide on whether you would like to fight this case, or change anther domain name. This time with a legal business name to have your butt cover :)

Duster explained pretty well why we are not yet incorporated. We have our registered business name and are legally operating this business but we didn't feel the need or the urge to spend all that money on lawyers to become incorporated when it was not yet necessary. Believe me, it will be done in time.

Maybe i am wrong in some part, please correct me.
You were wrong and have been corrected ;p

Chicken: That is now what we are doing. We returned them a phone call and so far they seem to have disapeared in the mist. I hope this is what we thought it was... a big bluff ;)

Admin: No problems, I understood that and I corrected my first post... As I said before, it is hard to stay calm with this kind of thing and I was a bit freaked out when this came (I was waked up in the morning with a 'distress' call from my boss)

Final note: we are now spending (a lot) of money to register our Trademark, Can-Host Networks, wich would then give us (legally) the right to sue anyone with can-host or canhost in their name... wich we won't do of course. I really don't think that sueing everyone is the way to go to be succesfull. As you can see, we are registering legal documents (copyright, trademark) and I suggest to any other web host out there and important web sites to do the same, or someday someone will do it for you and menace to sue you for it.

Enjoy! I'll keep you informed


------------------
[Félix C.Courtemanche | Web Designer]
[Head Designer | Co-Admin]
[webmaster@can-host.com]
[Can-Host Networks | http://can-host.com ]

[This message has been edited by Félix C.Courtemanche (edited 06-20-2000).]

Sorry :)

Felix, I wouldn't have even returned the phone call, but you already did.

It is hard to legally protect your name in every instance and in every country. Not even sure if U.S. trademark laws even apply at all, but your lawyer will be able to advise better than I can.

This could get messy, but then again it could blow over. Wish you the best :)

The problem with things like that... is that absolutely no one knows.

The best trick we found was to have as much stuff registered as possible to help us defend ourselves if anyone else ever try to do what canhost.ca did before.

A funny quote, taken from their web site:

"I want to show you how hosting and web services no longer belong in the realm of fifteen year old kids who are reselling space on a server from their bedroom, or 'anything for money' sharks who found a new career after selling cars and mobile phones. "

they really seems to believe and think what they wrote *cough*

I guess this is pretty much the end of the story, because we beat them... they bluffed and we knew it.

Now, we are making sure by all the ways we can think of that this won't happen anymore.

Thanks for the 'potential' help you showed ;)



------------------
[Félix C.Courtemanche | Web Designer]
[Head Designer | Co-Admin]
[webmaster@can-host.com]
[Can-Host Networks | http://can-host.com ]

I studied law, so i hope this will help others in removing doubts.

Most of what Duster expressed above was quite logical and factual.

Here are the "facts" as i see it.

1. A company holding a trademark is generally all powerful only in his country. Other countries may or may not be signatories to the international trademark convention, though i would assume canada and the usa are.

2. Unique words such as Cocacola, Pepsi or Kodak... which don't mean a thing in most English dictionaries... are names with a lot of inherent strength when it comes to issues like these. If you were to own a name like these, you would in most cases win lawsuits like the one we have been discussing in this thread.

3. On the other hand, ordinary words, or their combinations thereof, which are generic English words are not so easy to win over when they become trademark issues.

For eg. Western Vegetables is registered in Africa and in business for the last 25 years.

Western Vegetables (by coincidence) has been doing business in England for the last 15 years.

Their paths never crossed before until recently (maybe because of the INTERNET !!!)

Most courts would find it difficult to make a ruling in this regard, because both have been doing business for more than a decade.

It's another story if suddenly one of these two companies decides to profit on the goodwill of the other and goes to court. It would become very apparent and courts are about justice in the end.

4. Here is another side to this problem. Suppose Mr. X decided to register Madonna.com (hypothesis) and deals in music.

Or perhaps Mr. Y registers JuliaRoberts.com and opens a fan club on the internet about her.

If any of these two guys are taken to court by either of the two stars, the stars have a lot going on in their favour when it comes to winning.

But suppose another real JuliaRoberts (who is a nurse working in some hospital in some part of the world) registers JuliaRoberts.com, in this case the film star can't do a thing about it other than make the nurse "an offer she can't refuse"!!!

Hope i have explained myself clearly enough here.

---------------------

Well, having said this, why do we think there are so many country specific suffixes in domain names anyway.

that's because the world is too huge and the english dictionary is too small.

legally speaking, for GENERIC NAMES only, can-host.ca is TOTALLY DIFFERENT from can-host.to or can-host.co.uk... even if all of these coincidently happen to be in the hosting business.

that's why this would have been a LANDMARK RULING in my opinion too, but courts aren't fools... they go by law... and in the absense of law... by the concept of fairness.

as duster said, one doesn't even need to incorporate a business... it costs a lot of money to do so. in most countries, one wouldn't be obligated to even register.

proof of doing business in that name for the last so many years via newspaper ads, electricity bills, telephone bills, etc. etc. etc. are legal proof enough, in the absense of a law or legal precedent.

---------------------------

ICANN is becoming increasing aware that issues like these are becoming more and more commonplace nowadays... and have drafted a special DISPUTES POLICY. In this day and age, Trademarks are definitely the way to go.

And there is nothing better than owning an International Trademark, since the world is getting smaller and smaller so rapidly.

Hope this post helps others who may have issues like these to contend with in the future... God Forbid.

If anyone wants to email me to discuss this subject further, he or she can send me mail for further clarifications in these matters (ie. my personal opinions only, though !!!)

oh... my personal opinions would be entirely FREE OF COST... LOL !!!!!

[Edited by Learner on 09-29-2000 at 12:30 PM]

I would like to personally thank everyone that posted to Felix's post on our problem with canhost.ca. It has been a great help to us. So far canhost.ca seems to have faded into the background. Weather or not this is a good sign I am not sure, is too soon to tell however things seem to be going in the right direction.

We have taken steps to get ourselves a Canadian Trademark under the name of "Can-Host Networks" If successful that will be the end of this whole mess. Also as well attempting to get a U.S trademark for that name. Just in Case :)

Again, I thank you all for the time you have taken on this issue.



------------------
[ Jason Berresford ]
www.can-host.com (http://www.can-host.com)
admin@can-host.com
[ (905)765-8140 ]