I don't know what we did to #iss off Murphy, but he sure got to us over the last 24 hours.

The problems over the past 24 hours have been many but initially appeared to be one.

As a result, we have upgraded to teh latest version of Vbulletin, completed a data base optomization, repair, and reindex (or what ever you call it), optomized the settings on the sql server, and gone through/optomized the three front end servers that are load balanced. We have rectified a network issue related to the load balancing. As of now, all systems including the sql server and the load balancing should be stable. We (OK Patrick and his team) worked through the night and most of today.

edit ...

{Our network tem is making one of two more changes to the load balancing this afternoon/evening. This shoudl be the last of the system/network related latency.}

Now that this has been done, I pulled my travelling laptop out and connected to the site the old fashioned way. And, YES, I did identify a longer load time, about 5 seconds to 6 seconds, through dialup. I also identified in 1 of 20 attempts that the ad server was creating an error and delay in loading.

Many suggestions have been made, and I have decided on a few:

1. Graphics will be optomized to the best possible size while still retaining a quality look.
2. Thread titles will go back to normal, not bold
3. The current Dual P III and two Compaq DL 320s (single P III) web servers for WHT will be replaced with four deal xeon servers to handle the front end. Likewise, a dual Xeon will be utilized for the SQL server in a RAID configuration. Currently, the SQL server uses a Dual P III configuration with a SCSI raid.
4. After we change out the Ensim ad, we will temporarily stop taking Flash ads and limited it to Gifs/animated Gifs, etc. In fact, I will shortly take the Ensim ad out of rotation.
5. We will try to identify what the occasional issue with the ad server is. (I experienced the problem only on dialup, never through my broadband connection)

WHT should be a site that is dialup friendly and we are working to ensure that this is the case.

However, after the changes above are implemented, the old template/style will be removed.

Your comments and suggestions are appreciated. I hope that my actions on the above items show that I am committed to making WHT the best that it can be.

Robert

Sounds Excellent Robert, thanks for the information, it is greatly appreciated

Thanks for the update Robert.

Unfortunately, WHT seems to be encountering the same effects as two other sites I saw perform a massive vBulletin "upgrade" earlier this year. A few other sites I frequent, one about as busy as WHT, one even busier. Well, they too added a server or two and updated to the newest VB version. The site has never been the same since. They are slow, the search function rarely works, and any number of various other problems.

While optimizing graphics and such will help, I think the problem lies a lot deeper than just the new style. The other sites I mentioned didn't even change styles, simply upgraded the forums to 2.2.9 and had similar effects. One site is now back to normal, but it took them 4 months and many thousands of dollars to do so :eek:

Hopefully things work out better for WHT, but only time and countless manhours will tell. Good luck!

The previous issues with the search option was unrelated to the upgrade, it was being toyed with as a troubleshooting option. It should be back to normal now, I note I'm able to search on it fine now.

Originally posted by headsurfer
After we change out the Ensim ad, we will temporarily stop taking Flash ads and limited it to Gifs/animated Gifs, etc. In fact, I will shortly take the Ensim ad out of rotation.

I'm sure those who advertise here like to know that their gif won't be looped beucase some have disabled gif looping due to the new theme.

Originally posted by headsurfer
However, after the changes above are implemented, the old template/style will be removed.

Becuase there are now ads in the old style? Or is there another reason you would take out the old style?

When you come out with a new style next time, do you think it could be valid code?

Time to go back to a text browser.

excellent work :) just outta interest robert could you post the bandwidth and diskspace useage and server loads for this forum? no major reasonjust a case of inquiring minds.

Sure is looking nice. I do agree with removing the bold from the thread titles. It just looks too "heavy".

Any idea on when you will be publishing your new advertising rates? Will you be posting them on the site?

Vito

Yeah, the server loads and everything would be kind of cool to look at.

And I don't think anyone can ever question your committment towards making WHT the best forum out there. I mean 5 Dual Xeons... that's pretty hefty configuration.

Load averages, from 1-4:
6:47pm up 15 days, 22:35, 3 users, load average: 0.52, 0.42, 0.40
6:48pm up 16 days, 12 min, 2 users, load average: 0.56, 0.79, 0.81
6:47pm up 3:02, 2 users, load average: 0.94, 0.32, 0.97
6:50pm up 3:06, 3 users, load average: 1.05, 0.64, 0.74
Disk usage is minimal on the webservers, currently the sql:
1234 ./whtalk_forum
1.2 GB

i'll be able to give you a more accurate bandwidth report Monday for the 4, but last time I checked it was about 4 GB per day per server of traffic.

All the webservers are currently running php accelerator and mod_gzip.

My suggestions:
Remove the looping new post icon. Having it the dark blue/light gray for new post/old post works for most of us.

Cut down signatures to 2 lines or allow 4 lines but no smilies

As for the ads, let's make a compromise: Make the top ad animated, force the bottom to be fixed. Few will pay attention to the bottom ad anyways so why bother wasting time loading an animated one?

Originally posted by akash
My suggestions:
Remove the looping new post icon. Having it the dark blue/light gray for new post/old post works for most of us. I definitely agree with that.

Two comments:

The latest version of Vbulletin is 2.2.9 - not 2.2.5 as shown at bottom

Can we please have the Arial font back instead of Tahoma. Would be so much nicer (and easier) to read.

Like the new look and at this time, the loading is just as good/fast as it was before -- for me anyway. :)

The latest version of Vbulletin is 2.2.9 - not 2.2.5 as shown at bottom



The text at the bottom is incorrect I beleive..

The new layout is cool but it's SO slow now. And I have a HIGH SPEED connection. I can't imagine how slow it must be for people with normal connection

Originally posted by Website Rob

Can we please have the Arial font back instead of Tahoma. Would be so much nicer (and easier) to read.You mean Verdana? Yeah, I agree. I thought something seemed strange with the fonts, but I couldn't place a finger on what it was. Verdana is easier to read than Tahoma.

Originally posted by TwizOnline
The new layout is cool but it's SO slow now. And I have a HIGH SPEED connection. I can't imagine how slow it must be for people with normal connection

It loads extremely fast for me, I'm on the internal network so this should rule out the server's ability to send the pages to you, which only leaves the connection between and the computer/browser receiving. Have you tried it in opera? I do notice it loads faster in opera for me than it did in internet explorer.

It usually instantly loads for me. I have noticed a few times where it'll take about 20-30 seconds for a page to pop up. But it's not happening too often.

Loads slower for me than it used to. It isn't my connection as the problem is exclusive to WHT. It takes about 5 seconds for a page to load (it just gives me a nice white screen to stare at for 5 seconds). Also noticed a lot of time-outs earlier. The frequency of those seems to have decreased now, though.

Sigh, something in me misses the old layout. It just doesn't quite feel like home anymore. I hope the feeling passes...

Originally posted by Acronym BOY
I'm sure those who advertise here like to know that their gif won't be looped beucase some have disabled gif looping due to the new theme....

I've set my firewall (AtGuard) to disable animated gifs for this site because the animated icons are so annoying.

What browser are you using to get these blank screens? This happens for me some in IE, but far worse in Netscape. Netscape is very picky (this is a good thing) in regards to the RFC's and won't just accept anything sent. Unfortunately they don't handle these issues well and can crash the browser or consume very high resources for the Netscape process in question.

For what its worth, Opera 7.0 handles the site without a problem.

I can't read here.

My eyes end up looking like :bawling: after a few minutes.

Please do something so I (and others like me) can use this site.

I'm using IE. Forgot to mention about the animated post thingies. They irritate the hell out of me :mad:

Headsurfer,

Why did you "steal" my thread with the poll asking if we should keep the old layout. I am using the old layout now and besides speed issues, the old layout is much better than the new one. I believe you want a forum where people can write and read things, if so, keep the old layout and let the designer go home :) The Poll should tell you what the community wants (which might be different than the owner). The poll says KEEP the old layout!

Anton

Originally posted by SoftWareRevue
I can't read here.

My eyes end up looking like :bawling: after a few minutes.

Please do something so I (and others like me) can use this site.

Well this does give you an oppurtunity to head outside and enjoy the warm Michigan weather:stickout

I am sure you're already aware of this Robert/Patrick. However, when I go and browse a thread 8/10 it will just show a blank page, completely, 100% blank and I need to hit refresh 5 times or so to get it to load. I have had a few people test this, all with the same results.

I have to agree with Robert's comments that the site is slow on dialup, I just checked it using my laptop. I would suggest getting rid of the things such as the animated GIFs on the homepage to indicate new posts. Not only are they not necessary, they slow down the site and are a distraction ;)

Even on 1Mbit broadband from the UK, this site is now slow. Never mind US based dialup users, can you imagine dialup users from the UK, Europe etc.? Remember, WHT is a worldwide site, used by many people from all folks of the planet.

I would strongly suggest you make a quick overhaul to the old WHT template and add the links to the Webmaster Resources etc. That skin can then be put up and the user can select what skin they want. I would recommend using the new one as the default. Having said that, the poll Robert made may be slightly flawed, due to the problems WHT is presently having, people may be voting to get the old style back, just for that reason.

:)

As Robert and Patrick have pointed out numerous times, the template has nothing to do with the site loading slowly. It is the connection in between. The templates have just had a facelift, there haven't been enough drastic changes to make it load any slower.

One other thing I just noticed... the alignment of the header image is way off and the colors don't match up...

We have removed the animated gifs along teh left on the forum and replaced them with the old ones.

That saves about 4.5k on those images.

We're still looking at the rest.

Robert

I've also taken out the ads temporarily to allow Corey to compare apples to apples without the ads.

Strange, without the ads, the site is flying along, just like it shoul. Still getting the blank pages when viewing threads, however I think that's more of a coding problem.

http://www.webhostingtalk.com/?styleid=3

This will allow use of the old template while we work through the issues with the new one.

Robert

We are now defaulting back to the old one while we work on the issues.

I can read again! :D

And it was Verdana -- much better.

did someone say warm michigan weather :confused:

(although it is warm compared to a few weeks ago!)

Wow.. no more blank pages now that the old template is back up.. hope you get that and the speed problems with the new template fixed as I like it a lot better.

Originally posted by Website Rob
I can read again! :D

And it was Verdana -- much better. whoo hoo!

*gonna quick do some catching up before the evil forum comes back.

Headsurfer,

Why fix something when it is not broken? What is wrong with the old layout and what is good about the new one?

In my opinion it would be beter for the WHT community to not further commercialize WHT which you can do by spending no money on a redesign that does not work.

Sometimes a style gets boring and you want to change it. I personally have no problem with the new WHT Look that was up and will be coming back up soon. It doesn't hurt to have a style that thats fun to look at.

The default look is alright, but gets dull and boring after a while. I love the new look, and I think a great job has been done on it.

5 dual xeon's can't wait heh when will all that stuff noted be done?

Please don't remove the old template, you will get rid of many users this way

I prefer the new design actually, now that we're back to the old one. The short pauses before page load was a tad annoying and if they get fixed, I think the new site will be perfect.

I prefer Verdana over Arial any day of the week.

The new site is, simply, unusable for me. There are too many reasons to list.

I'd have to agree too... I just stopped browsing after a few posts yesterday.
The biggest problem I had was that on some pages, the tables would keep changing size and position for about 15 seconds as the page finished loaded and it was too crowded.
I know some people prefer the new style but I'd like an option to keep using this one in the settings

Yeah, you should use Verdana font and remove Tahoma; it's hard to read it...

Well theres problems with both..

Some users like the new one, some like the old..

and addaction.. He cannot base wether he keeps the new design on your poll.

Why?

It's simple. Because I bet not even 10% of the WHT community has voted on your poll, its a minority that has had the chance and seen your poll.

Now I personally love the new design except for the flashing icons.

And once it is loaded on those new servers I will like it even more.

I hope that you keep the new design Robert, and keep up the good work, we all really appreciate what your doing with WHT! :)

I have sent Rob a list of things to help speed things up. This includes removing some of things people disliked.

adminME> The reason I find that poll unfair is because the new design is not 100% yet. With all these errors how many are judging the new skin? And how many are judging the errors that we are still squishing out?

Well my personal preference has NOTHING to do with problems with the new design.

The new design is just NOT good for the functionality of WHT. It's the wrong design. It makes things hard to read and navigate. It was literally hurting my eyes. I stopped reading it untill I found out I could switch back to the old one.

Originally posted by addaction
. . . . . .It was literally hurting my eyes.. . . . That's the biggest reason I will not be able to use this site if it forces us to use that design.

What was hurting your eyes? The font? Please elaborate. Whatever it is Im sure we can remedy/change it.

Originally posted by CoreyW
What was hurting your eyes? The font? Please elaborate. Whatever it is Im sure we can remedy/change it.

I can't speak for the others, but it was also hurting my eyes.
I couldn't pinpoint exactly what it was but I think it was a mix between the flashing icons and the bold fonts everywhere.

Now that it's back to the original style, I can browse through much more easily.

The flashing icons were already removed, and also bold fonts are being removed.

Anything else?

Originally posted by CoreyW
What was hurting your eyes? The font? Please elaborate. Whatever it is Im sure we can remedy/change it.

The looping icons for one, but I'm sure that'll be changed ;)

I can also see the two different fonts being a problem, and some will prefer one over the others. A simple compromise fix is to create two skins with each font and let us choose between the two.

Yeah, as I said not a problem. The icons were removed. The fonts also will become 1 font only. And it will probably be the original font used on the original design.

Guys you need to realize also that you need to get used to it..

You are used to this layout for WHT and now theres a new one, all you have to do is get used to it.

Any of you saying you will leave most likely wont, that's always how it is. But if you do, then, well I guess that's your decision.

I for one will be happy once the new design is up since I find this one quite bland...

I can't believe you guys didn't like it. It's an awesome design and I commend Corey on his work, very very impressive, I wish I could produce something that awesome. I also think Patrick deserves a pat on the back because I was talking to him for a while and I know he was working very hard (on his day off) and trying all kinds of things to troubleshoot all the servers and network to make them faster for us.

As soon as speed is straightened out it'll rock.

Try now everyone. We seem to have nailed all the problems down.

Originally posted by adminME
. . . . . Any of you saying you will leave most likely wont, that's always how it is. . . . . I would have had no choice. My eyes looked like :bawling: after just a couple minutes.

Now that Corey has made some changes, it's easier. Although, I still have a hard time within threads. Forums look good. But, there is something about the threads that is still bothering me.

I always said I liked the style. But, if there were aspects that made my eyes bleed; it would have become unusable for me.

Yes WebDev, the new changes have increased the speed (and the frame thing was a good idea :D)

banner on bottom = not loading

Originally posted by adminME
Guys you need to realize also that you need to get used to it..

You are used to this layout for WHT and now theres a new one, all you have to do is get used to it.

Any of you saying you will leave most likely wont, that's always how it is. But if you do, then, well I guess that's your decision.

I for one will be happy once the new design is up since I find this one quite bland...

This is precisely the reason I suggested leaving the old design (with small modifications to allow the ad changes) online.

When you roll up and say 'this is how it's going to be from now on' to a community, you're going to get a backlash. On the other hand, if you say 'you have this new option if you don't like it, don't use it' people will eventually come around to the point where they don't really use the old design anymore.

I think for me something that really annoys me is the scrolling down to see if I have any Private Messages from the home page.

I would suggest moving the Private Messages up a bit so when I first logon I can see the Private Messages staright away

I like the new one way better , a solution for all, keep the old and the new heh i'll use the new the people who like the old can use it :) problem solved right?

/edit and yes on opera I just got it the site is way way faster than ie I plan to use this browser for now on :) very slick.

I've got to say, I'm impressed!

Yeah, I ran into the same errors that most did this weekend (sql errors, vb messages, etc), but I like it.

I don't use dialup (cable all the way baby!!), so I can't commend on the issues there, but I like it.

Everything changes, everything gets upgraded, downgraded and the like. Change is a part of life, and in this case I've got to say I LOVE the new look, I LOVE the new styles, they're great!!

Keep up the good work.

I would've liked to have kept the old design without the huge banners, but the new design isn't far off. It's definitely not bad. You should really center the new posts/no new posts images on the main page to the left of each forum.

Loading times are good for me with both designs.

I like this new design,i give bob alot of credit!!

I wonder if we could doante to bob to help him with the site,that might be a nice thing 2 do!!

The Dude :)

Thanks Robert for giving WHT a freshface and dumping resources into a great community!

How much ram are in the machines?

Doubt my opionion matters much, but here's my thoughts:

New layout rocks (put the thread titles back like you said) and also make the text like it is now (for posts), that font was ugly.

Get the load down ... I'm dialup and it was about 5-6 seconds here too .... dialup friendly should be the target. I should be on broadband, but atm I just have no use for it .... and I hate sites that don't take into consideration a lot of people still use dialup.

Keep up the good work.

P.S. That's a lot of Xeons ... :)

can we get pictures of "wht"....please . I mean , i just wanna see the computer the serves me daily.... maybe this is lame...i dont know , just thought it might be cool...

Originally posted by case
can we get pictures of "wht"....please . I mean , i just wanna see the computer the serves me daily.... maybe this is lame...i dont know , just thought it might be cool...

heh I don't blame you at all, I mean hey I asked if we could see a page that shows load averages on all of the boxes, and the mrtg graphs hah, that would be very cool /me thinks :blush:

are we asking for 2 much ? ...naw

Originally posted by case
are we asking for 2 much ? ...naw

of course not haha we are all on the computer all day and want to entertain ourselves with somthing to look at right? :cool:

exactly . i mean it is public...might as well . Plus it will make a couple members like me and you happy . Im sure thier some other nerds here that would like to see the same :)

advertsing information and rates please headsurfer :D

Originally posted by UH-Matt
advertsing information and rates please headsurfer :D

2nd that :) :agree: