Recently I have noticed web hosting talk becoming the zone for people bashing other people. Companies bashing other companies.

When you a friend with food on their face do you shout it out in front of everyone, or do you pull them aside so they can correct themselves?

What I can't understand is why the same doesn't happen here? If a person has something to the attention of another member of this board, I believe the polite way to do it is by first contacting them privately give people time to correct their mistakes? Half the post I see on this board, are posts from the same people, looking to point out flaws in everyones posts, ideas, comments, or websites. Its ridiculous.

I may be wrong, but I believe the purpose of WHT is for constructive talk about web hosting and the community that surrounds it.

Im not saying, some companies/people do not deserve the bashing they get. After a private contact, and no reply is received, or nothing is corrected then it should be brought to the publics knowledge. However how can someone fix something if they first time they read about it is here, along with everyone else?

Maybe this is just my 2 cents that no one agrees with, but I hope someone does at least.

Zach

:idea:

I recently begin to notice that much less mods are taking care of the forum.

I totally agree. I havn't seen the OPs much lately either. Wonder what happened to them or what has gotten their attention!? :(

Do unto others as you would have done to you!

Franc

I agree!There should be a rule about that!No bashing etc.. We should help each other not make them feel bad!

My 0.02:D

When one company bashes another, it makes them look bad..... I for one won't sign-up with a company that bashes another, without proof.....

Originally posted by JTY
When one company bashes another, it makes them look bad..... I for one won't sign-up with a company that bashes another, without proof.....


With or without proof, I wouldn't sign up with a company that bashes its competitors. Why reward bad behaviour with my dollars?

WHT has undergone some changes since I first stumbled across it. It has morphed into a place where hosts talk more than regular users. This is not a good or bad thing, just an observation. This results in some spammish behavior when users do appear, as well as some bootprints on various hosts' backs as other hosts try to make themselves look better at someone else's expense. Anyone who advertises unlimited bandwidth is not included in this, as they deserve what they get.

One item that is particularly unattractive to me is the tendency of people to jump at the throats of people who post something that might go against the opinion of the majority here. One need only look at the recent discussions about VDI and HR to see this in action. I posted a message at sitepointforums that covers this a bit. I'm not referring to obvious trolls, which are fairly easy to spot. I'm referring to people who are angry enough about something - anything - about their host and feel that their needs haven't been addressed that they post. Having defenders of a host start whipping at the poster just because the poster feels their experience has been less than optimal and having the host insult the poster soon afterward is not my idea of productive discussion. It makes the defenders and the host look bad, which might (in some peoples' minds) simply reinforce the complaint the original poster has raised. Right or wrong, details or no, people have a right to post here within the rules of the forum. Those that are not obvious trolls should be afforded whatever respect the reader feels there should be, but they should never berate the poster for stating their opinion.

All of that aside, this is still one of the most active forums around that deals with web-related issues, and the most active as far as hosting-related issues go, due to he sheer number of hosts that congregate here. The noise ratio is rather high. Good? Bad? I don't know, really. I've been away for over six months, and while some little things have changed, some things remain the same. I know that I am not as active as I was in a previous lifetime here, and it's for the reasons above. It's also the reason that this forum is about to drop off Deb's list at forumhosts, like every other forum she had listed at one time.

Originally posted by zolbian
I totally agree. I havn't seen the OPs much lately either. Wonder what happened to them or what has gotten their attention!? :(


We're still here :)

We're just having a bit less of a presence so that the forum more or less runs smoothly with as little interference from us as possible. That was a fairly conscious decision (and in some respects, I feel it's working.. But in others.... :rolleyes: ).

It keeps getting delayed, but I'm thinking of re-writing the rules completely so that it incorporates suggestions previously made by members, it's easier to read and yet at the same time it adequately covers what is and isn't allowable on the forums. I've been studying the forum rules at GeekTalk, FreeWebSpace, SP and some other forums and trying to see what we can improve on.

Quite frankly, the current rules/guidelines page is now a little too ambigious for my tastes. I'll also need to get on Matt's back to force all new users to really read the guidelines before they can sign up (which isn't hard to implement with a little PHP in the templates).

This is what I'd like to see (ultimately) :

1. A forum that self-moderates itself without much interference from mods.
2. Reduced signal-to-noise ratio. I agree with Annette (and others who have spoken to me about this) that we need to get it down, so I'm tempted to add a rule along the lines of... Keep everything on-topic or the posts will be thrown out.
3. Clearer definitions of trolling, and what's acceptable/not acceptable. This will require some work.
4. Suggestions galore from everyone else.

Let the suggestions-athon begin ;)

Originally posted by Annette
It's also the reason that this forum is about to drop off Deb's list at forumhosts, like every other forum she had listed at one time.
Too true <sigh>. In the past several months this forum has become so dominated by hosts that it's now very nearly useless. When I'm looking for information about hosts I want to hear from current and former *customers*! I *don't* want to hear from hosts who recommend other hosts, who in turn reciprocate and recommend them. I would strongly suggest you change the rules regarding commercial signatures, and not allow them. If hosts couldn't advertise their services here through their signatures many of them would go away, and people looking for information about hosts might get that information from actual customers, rather than getting hearsay recommendations from people who've never had a website hosted by whatever company they are recommending. Nor would they get their heads ripped off when they post a complaint about a popular host.

Originally posted by BC
This is what I'd like to see (ultimately) :

1. A forum that self-moderates itself without much interference from mods.
Dream on, boy! Any forum where money is at stake *needs* a pro-active staff. In my opinion, you need to do more, not less. As a comparison: on our forum (where we manage our message base *very* intensively) we've found we need one staffer for every 100 forum members. We have 2,100 members (and probably as many unregistered participants, since registration is not required) and average 150 new messages per day -- don't know what you're seeing here. We also have very strict rules about what constitutes a commercial post, and we are *very* strict about not allowing any, including *no* commercial signatures.

What this forum meeds most is an *unwritten* policy of encouraging people to post recommendations *only* if they are current or former customers of a particular host, and *discouraging* recommendations from anyone else. This *especially* includes the staff of this forum, which sets a very bad example in this regard.

Deb,

You bring up valid points, but just directing your fire at the wrong people.

You have to realize something, the head suits (do any of you even own suits? Chicken?) here at WHT provide WHT as a resource to those looking for hosts and other web hosting related services, free of charge. They do not get paid as far as I know for WHT, and you do not see banner advertisements anywhere. Therefore this would be considered a hobby at best (no offense guys).

I'm sure most of the mods have other jobs to tend to which doesn't allow them to be around to police the forums 24/7 especially while not turning a profit for doing so. Therefore it is a take it or leave it deal, if you don't like it ... hit the highway, if you're not complaining ... sit tighter to the bottom of your seat, dismiss the hurdle and drive on, drive on fastly!

Now, I work in the news media and entertainment arena's by trade. However, on my spare time I administer a web site that provides users with over 3,000+ pages of text & graphical information regarding military and law enforcement special operations forces teams throughout the world (i.e. Navy SEALs, Marine Force Recon, Army Rangers, British SAS, Austrailian SAS, NZSAS, German GSG9, LAPD SWAT, US Army Counterintelligence etc.). The information ranges from information regarding the history, structure, command, table of organization and equipment, operations history etc. of these units. This is not a role playing site, nor do we partake in any "childish" Hollywood Rambo (no pun intended, as that is indeed my last name) type movie fantasies. Most of our site visitors are eitehr 1- Retired/Former/Active Duty Military Personnel from around the world, or those who aspire to join the military of whatever country it may be and join their services respective SpecOps Forces type unit.

We happen to incorporate a bulletin board with approx. 2,506 ACTIVE users, not very many double registrants. We average roughly 120-140 new topics per day scattered throughout 33 categories, and 172 different forums. Of the 172 different forums, I say we have new posts in 110 of them everyday. I say of the 120 topics per day, each topic averages about 10 replies give or take. Thats 1,200 topics to review per day. Sometimes (very often) more.

I administer the board completely by myself day in and day out while balancing an actual paying job, and I'll be damned if someone were to start getting picky at a service provided to them free of charge with very little revenue (if any) coming in ...

To make things worse you have to realize that the audience is either:
1- Those who currently serve in a nation's military or served in the military at one time in elite special operations forces oriented units, therefore these guys (and sometimes "gals" in such areas as Counterintelligence/SIGINT/HUMIT) are usually well educated & well traveled snake eaters with not only the vocabulary of scholars but that of the type of guys your mom warns you about. These men (or women) are usually short tempered when it comes to ignorance with regards to their professions.

or

2- Kids who watch too many movies and think they can join the military to be a Surpreme One Man Killing Machine within say the US Navy SEALs, or US Army Special Forces. These are the misinformed kids (and sometimes adults) who spark the flame wars most of the time.

or

3- The "well-mannered" and "matured" kids (and often adults) who aspire to join a branch of their country's military and serve in one of the Special Operation Forces (SOF) units that their branch of service has to offer. These are the types that ask the intelligent (although sometimes stupid) questions but they are actually there to gather information about their career aspirations.

or

4- Plain and simple ... the groupies.

Now between these 4 types, opinions ALWAYS clash, and often turn into very ugly situations.

I'm all for the rights that fall under the First Amendment's protection, but until you administer a forum like this on limited resources day in and day out without making a dime ... then you can complain to others how to operate their forum in the tone you elected to use.

Now, I have respect for you Deb as I notice you provide very reasonable and knowledgeable services to many people, and I respect you for that as that is what the internet is all about ... harbouring connectivity amongst individuals from all walks of the earth, but look at it from my POV for a second.

I'll return my soapbox now. As I'm tired ... :o

Jeff, to be blunt: I don't care if this forum makes money or not. If you don't want to hear constructive criticism about your forum, that's fine. I too administer a forum, more-than-full-time on very limited resources, and I welcome criticism. If WHT ceases to provide the valuable service it once did, I, as a caring member, will say something about it, and if the staff here objects to my tone they can let me know. BC did ask for crticism, after all. And they've received it from me on more than one occasion. <g>

It's seeing what's happened to this and other forums due to lack of sufficient restrictions on commercialism that has made us so strict about this issue on the MIMForum (see the first link in my signature). We have had repeated problems with businesses trying to use our forum for no other purpose than to drive our traffic to their commercial websites. We will not allow our forum to be considered a resource available for financial exploitation, and we enforce this rigorously. I have posted the link to our Policy (http://www.mimf.com/useragr.htm) more than once here: the list under paragraph one is the result of four years of dealing with businesses trying to expoit our userbase for their own commercial purposes.

As Annette rightly pointed out, I used to list half a dozen *good* forums for discussing hosts on my hosting page. They have all been destroyed by inadequate policing of commercial posts by those who would use those forums as a *business* resource instead of as an *informational* resource. If WHT stopped allowing hosts to exploit WHT as a potential financial resource (outside of the advertising section), this forum would be the better for it.

Zach -
Recently I have noticed web hosting talk becoming the zone for people bashing other people. Companies bashing other companies.

I don't like this either, nor do any of the mods, members, etc. Do us a favor and if youi see *anything* that you want to report, use vBull's 'report this post to a moderator' feature and we'll take a look.

As for everything else you said, I agree. Much of the criticism could be done off board.


klisis and zolbian -
Everyone has just been a bit busier lately, but things will be settling down for me (at least) soon.


geekwannabe, Red Circle Host, JTY, Mike the newbie -

I agree.


Annette -
Anyone who advertises unlimited bandwidth is not included in this, as they deserve what they get.

Hee hee... that is my thinking too. The board has shifted to a place where hosts discuss things more than other *regular* members, but at the same time, while we do have certain rules for hosts and advertising, I do not feel there is such a thing as a *regular* member here and everone is welcome and their thoughts and input is just as important as someone who doesn't own a hosting business.

It's also the reason that this forum is about to drop off Deb's list at forumhosts, like every other forum she had listed at one time.

I really don't have much to say to this other than we appreciate links from other sites and don't mind that she refers to the site/page here, as it provides a wealth of infomation for people looking for a web host beyond what is here. It is also a good example of how fustrating it is to look for hosting for bigger sites. If she wants to drop us from the list, and all the other forums, then that is her choice, it is her page, etc.


Deb Suran -
Too true <sigh>. In the past several months this forum has become so dominated by hosts that it's now very nearly useless.

I don't understand this statement as Deb has used this forum many times to help her, directed traffic to her site/page, etc., and participated in many discussions here, but I'm not going to go into it and sell the site and its worth to anyone.


Jeff Rambo -
Correct. We do not get paid, and due to this site not accepting advertsing, nor attempting to be a for-profit site, I don't expect to. I realize there are many unpopular posts being made, and everything that everyone isn't going to like at least *one* aspect of the forum. This is expected (at least to me).

To all -
Many of you are more than just 'members' to me. I don't want to be *overly geeky* and say that you are some of my best friends, but in truth, as I get to know many of you here and chat with you at the hideout, just calling you a 'member' isn't quite the correct term.

If you do have a complaint, we'd welcome your input, but please realize that it is impossible to cater to all of you at the same time. We do our best and hope you enjoy the discussions you choose participate in.

Originally posted by Deb Suran

I would strongly suggest you change the rules regarding commercial signatures, and not allow them. If hosts couldn't advertise their services here through their signatures many of them would go away, and people looking for information about hosts might get that information from actual customers...

I personally wouldn't go away if that rule was implemented, but my question to you is: "why would you want the hosts to go away"?

I think having hosts here is what makes this board unique. Where else are you going to find such a wealth of information? I know that I have received assistance and advice from other hosts here, that would have taken me days/weeks to find on my own. In turn, I try to do the same. The people on the board who work for or run hosting companies tend to be the ones who know the answers to questions about why this or that doesn't work, or why this or that policy is in place.

That being said, I don't think it is unreasonable for a host to be able to list their services in their signature as compensation for the help they are giving on this board.

As I see it, and have proven with my own forums, a proper forum starts with a proper FAQ. Let people know the posting rules and guidelines in no uncertain terms and most will abide by them. You will tend to attract people who want such such reules, assuming an insistence on respect for individuals is one of them.

Admittedly, the rules for this forum are weak and even lacking in certain respects in this area. Changing that will change much. I earlier tendered some suggestions to help increase the value of certain postings.

Meanwhile, it would help if people stuck to facts they know to be true or furnished references to other discussions for anything they do not have first hand experience with. Also, we should keep the discussions on topic, starting a new one where the topic changes and leaving the chit chat to the General Conversations forum. Since it seems likely there will be a ban on business avatars (as they defeat the prurpose of an avatar) , hosts are encouraged to delete any logos and anything other than something that reflects the personality of the individual.

Bad manners and personally insulting people have no place here. They only degrade a forum by creating an atmosphere of hostility, which can be a deterrent to posts from anyone not wanting to risk being a similar target. I've seen it happen elsewhere many times.

The kind of control Deb finds necessary on her forum (1 moderator for every 100 registered members) is atypical and exceptionally high judging by the forums I've seen. My own spend more time handling forgotten password issues than anything else, and few of those.

Deb,

Like I said with your first contributed $.02, valid points; respected ones. But once again, you're still asking too much for too little. As said, there is going to be those who like a product, and those who don't. I know you're simply providing the criticism that was asked for, but you can't cater to everyone, nor should you.

I do not censor my work to appeal to the masses, if my columns are rejected by the LA Times and NY Times for being too conservative, then so be it ... I don't need the exposure as I'll receive it somewhere else. If my work is rejected by Fox News Channel and not linked on the Drudge Report for being too liberal, then oh well. I provide everyone with something I'm *comfortable* with, and something I know how to do. I can't fancy everyone, nor can WHT.

Personally, I think if the hosts were to be censored on this board, I would not frequent it as much (if at all) and I'm sure there are others who would not as well. They provide very valuable insight, and you have to remember just like you and me, they are customers too.

If there weren't any hosts around, then that 50% factor as I like to call it would go out the door. To explain, there is enough host out there to fund the liberation the liberation of Taiwain; Not even half of everyone at WHT have had experience with these hosts however, therefore you can't get personal experience from EVERYONE, so you have to depend on that extra "50% factor" of other hosts who contribute to the boards as you will be able to determine their:
1- Approach to hosting
2- The tone they use with customers
3- How fast they are to respond
4- They're general level of intelligence; common sense; education or lack there of.
5- The "fine print" per se of their hosting businesses that you won't find anywhere on their web sites.

Now of course you can say "Well, thats why you just e-mail them a dud e-mail before signing up" ... well some of us don't unfortunately have the time to e-mail 15 different hosts we may be considering ... therefore here we get to monitor their overall appearance right here on WHT at a whole, instead of individually.

Now, just so you know ... I too am sick of seeing people handle situations the way they do at some points, and talk to each other as if they're Presidential Canidates in the last debate of the year. That I could do without. But don't expect it cleaned up at the drop of a pen.

And what do you consider a commercial signature?

1-
Sincerely,
Dirk Diggler
DiggDirk Hosting (http://www.dirkdirk.com)

or

2-
Sincerely,
Dirk Diggler
DiggDirk Hosting (http://www.dirkdirk.com)
Visit us now for our $30 monthly special!

or both?

Now if #2 is what you're referring to, I can deal with those going away, but signatures like #1 simply ID someone, plus it lets you know they're a host right off the bat.

In my opinion, there should be no double standard between hosts and customers; the bickering amongst everyone should stop; and if you're given something free, you either smile and say thank you or say no thanks and FIDO (F*** It, Drive On).

Having hosts and users together certainly makes this a much broader knowledge base.

Signatures... well I can't say I'd object if they had 'commercial' content removed.. but identifying a host is important without the sales pitch...

And I notice that Deb Suran, in a large number of her posts specifically says "see my signature" ... she also has stated that she makes a living from her online endeavours, so what is this but indirectly driving traffic to her site for financial (or other) benefit????

Having said that, if you can separate the obvious bitterness resulting from her array of unfortunate experiences, she provides an excellent source of factual information about hosting bulletin boards and forums, which I have referred people to on many, many occasions.

This (WHT) is no different than any open market where the benefits of leaving it to find it's own level are often worthwhile provided that it isn't allowed to get 'out of control', which this place has not yet quite become.

Keeping threads 'on topic' will probably remove a lot of the casual bashing.

It is unlikely that a large number of satisfied customers will call here to post, as this is supposed to be a place to seek advice when in the market to buy service.

Without some hosts being here, ('most' other people are either looking for advice, or complaining....) it would reduce the number of positive comments for newcomers to read. Unless of course this is only to be an 'avoid list'.

I don't understand this statement as Deb has used this forum many times to help her, directed traffic to her site/page, etc., and participated in many discussions here, but I'm not going to go into it and sell the site and its worth to anyone.
Forumhosts is a non-commercial, informational website. That's my point: I'm not trying to sell anybody anything. And yes, I have come to this forum many times for information, and I'm finding that in the past few months the value of information here is greatly diminished because more and more people are recommending hosts they've never used -- many of those recommendations coming from hosts who don't even use hosting companies because they have their own.

"why would you want the hosts to go away"?
I don't want ALL the hosts to go away -- only those who use this forum primarily for commercial rather than informational purposes. If hosts couldn't use this forum to advertise their businesses, the ones who are only interested in promoting their companies would quickly disappear. This happened on our own forum when we tightened up our restrictions on commercial posts two years ago. We had a few professional instrument builders who used every question relating to their instruments to post a "go to my [commercial] website" response. When we said, no more posting your own commercial URL, those people disappeared. The purpose of our website is *discussion*, not promotion, and, getting rid of those participants made for a better forum. We still have plenty of professional builders who participate on our forum (which is peopled mostly by hobbyists), and the ones who are left are genuinely interested in helping others, not in finding potential customers.

The kind of control Deb finds necessary on her forum (1 moderator for every 100 registered members) is atypical and exceptionally high judging by the forums I've seen.
Our first rule is that no volunteer should spend more than 30-45 minutes a day doing more than they ordinarily would just as members, which means having a lot of staff. But our second rule is that the message base must be managed very intensively: as soon as someone posts just one off-topic message, it's moved to a new discussion by the staff. As soon as the contents of a discussion are no longer accurately described by the discussion title, the discussion is renamed. Discussions started with non-descriptive titles ("HELP!!!!!!!!!!!") are immediately renamed ("Help!! I broke the neck off my mandolin! How can I fix it?!"). Etc. And that takes time.

You should remember that hosts come here for information as well, not just to promote there own business, even people trying to set up there own nocs come here for information. I being a host in the very near future and past and have got a lot of help on running my servers and choosing a datacenters so thats why i have came here, never have i used it to promote my free hosting(yet) I personaly like commercial signatures and wouldnt want to see the end of them, if people are help full on the board the chances are that there tech support is also good and you can find out if they run a company just by looking at the bottom of the post :)

just my 2 cents

By me: "...but I'm not going to go into it and sell the site and its worth to anyone."

Forumhosts is a non-commercial, informational website. That's my point: I'm not trying to sell anybody anything.

Deb, I think you missed the point I was trying to make (just to clarify). I wasn't talking about Forumhosts (not sure where that came from), nor the monetary value of anything.

What I meant was, that I'm not going to try to convince you of the usefulness of *this* site.

Anywhoooo...

Originally posted by Chicken
By me: "...but I'm not going to go into it and sell the site and its worth to anyone."

Forumhosts is a non-commercial, informational website. That's my point: I'm not trying to sell anybody anything.

Deb, I think you missed the point I was trying to make (just to clarify). I wasn't talking about Forumhosts (not sure where that came from), nor the monetary value of anything.

What I meant was, that I'm not going to try to convince you of the usefulness of *this* site.

Anywhoooo...

I believe that comment had been directed at another poster, Chicken........

(back to your standard station)

Originally posted by Chicken

Many of you are more than just 'members' to me. I don't want to be *overly geeky* and say that you are some of my best friends, but in truth, as I get to know many of you here and chat with you at the hideout, just calling you a 'member' isn't quite the correct term.


aw, shucks Chicken :o :blush:

hehe :)

Originally posted by Chicken
Many of you are more than just 'members' to me. I don't want to be *overly geeky* and say that you are some of my best friends, but in truth, as I get to know many of you here and chat with you at the hideout, just calling you a 'member' isn't quite the correct term.

Geek !!!!!!

Originally posted by CRego3D

Geek !!!!!!

ROFLOL